Rage as a feat

[stoutstien]

Reading about the Martial adept feat got me thinking. a feat that allow the character that rage once a day would be fine for a lot of builds.
Disregarding Moon druid shenanigans how balanced would that be?

A lot like the Martial adept with battle master, I think the biggest draw would be for barbarian who want an additional rage per day at lower tiers.

I was thinking of tacking it to the Savage feat.

[mephnick]

I'm worried of the slippery slope of granting unique class features to everyone via feat, even if it's a weaker version. There are lots of boring universal systems like Savage Worlds if you want easy access to anything.

[Man_Over_Game]

Reading about the Martial adept feat got me thinking. a feat that allow the character that rage once a day would be fine for a lot of builds.
Disregarding Moon druid shenanigans how balanced would that be?

A lot like the Martial adept with battle master, I think the biggest draw would be for barbarian who want an additional rage per day at lower tiers.

I was thinking of tacking it to the Savage feat.

Balance-wise, it'd have to be much worse than the Barbarian's version. Likely, no bonus damage and possible the requirement that you're not wearing medium or heavy armor.

The main problem is that Barbarians are already a rare class to see, and considering their primary feature is easily accessible with a single level, adding this feat will either do absolutely nothing or replace Barbarian multiclassing altogether.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm worried of the slippery slope of granting unique class features to everyone via feat, even if it's a weaker version. There are lots of boring universal systems like Savage Worlds if you want easy access to anything. Concur with this response.

[stoutstien]

I'm worried of the slippery slope of granting unique class features to everyone via feat, even if it's a weaker version. There are lots of boring universal systems like Savage Worlds if you want easy access to anything.
Well rage can be grabbed as a one lv dip if you allowing multi-class options.

[MagneticKitty]

Yeah I think the main difference is martially adept via fighter battle master is behind a 3 level wall. Each dice lasts one turn, it's not a minute rage.
To make it fair I think what you would do is maybe:
You can spend one action to gain resistance to all nonmagical p/b/s until the end of your next turn. You regain use of this feature after completing a short or long rest.
Feels about as potent as a single battle dice. Maybe make it a half feat with +1 con.

Could make it a reaction to taking damage (applies to triggering hit), which lets it work as a makeshift feather fall as well... then it does give some utility to barbs, since it allows reaction pseudo rage. but that messes with action economy... i think it should be fine since you could take shield with magic initiate as well.

[mephnick]

Well rage can be grabbed as a one lv dip if you allowing multi-class options.

Sure, but that's an expensive dip since Barb 1 doesn't give you a whole lot else. I don't think I've ever seen a 1 level Barb dip.

EDIT: I'll admit I'm biased. I don't think multiclassing really fits 5e. I allow it, but I don't like it.

[MagneticKitty]

Sure, but that's an expensive dip since Barb 1 doesn't give you a whole lot else. I don't think I've ever seen a 1 level Barb dip.

EDIT: I'll admit I'm biased. I don't think multiclassing really fits 5e. I allow it, but I don't like it.

I've seen a ton of 1-3 level dips of barb on the martials at our tables

[Zanthy1]

I've seen a ton of 1-3 level dips of barb on the martials at our tables

dipping into barbarian has to go up to 3 or its not worth it

[stoutstien]

I've seen a ton of 1-3 level dips of barb on the martials at our tables
Same. I see a lot of barbarian. more so than fighters and rangers combined but just my sample size.

I think I just found my fix for berserker. A simple additional rage per rest could do a lot to bring that subclass up to par.

[MagneticKitty]

dipping into barbarian has to go up to 3 or its not worth it

I disagree. Particularly for a dex fighter with the str req. You're getting better dex based a.c. and resistances. (Even if you don't or can't use extra damage) Rage is pretty powerful. And moon druids love rages.
Also strength monks
And clerics with no heavy armor prof

[mephnick]

I disagree. Particularly for a dex fighter with the str req.

How many Dex Fighters have the STR and CON to make unarmoured defense worthwhile? Hell, it's practically a trap for Barbarians.

If you're talking about ridiculous rolled stats then maybe.

I've seen plenty of 2 and 3 level Barb dips, never a 1 level.

[Barebarian]

Reading about the Martial adept feat got me thinking. a feat that allow the character that rage once a day would be fine for a lot of builds.
Disregarding Moon druid shenanigans how balanced would that be?

A lot like the Martial adept with battle master, I think the biggest draw would be for barbarian who want an additional rage per day at lower tiers.

I was thinking of tacking it to the Savage feat.

Well I think that rage is already WAY more powerful than superiority dice, and you can get it with just a one level dip!* It's cheap enough as is.

*I would like to take a moment to thank Wizards for making going postal something within everyone's reach. Cause everyone wants to rip their robes off and wreck face in a chainmail bikini sometimes :smallwink:

[Zhorn]

Well I think that rage is already WAY more powerful than superiority dice, and you can get it with just a one level dip!* It's cheap enough as is.

*I would like to take a moment to thank Wizards for making going postal something within everyone's reach. Cause everyone wants to rip their robes off and wreck face in a chainmail bikini sometimes :smallwink:
^This
Rage is also far more unique than superiority dice and maneuvers. At 3 maneuvers (from a list of 16) and 4x d8 superiority dice at baseline Battle Master (plus requiring a 3 level dip), it was fairly simple to scale down to Martial Adept's 2 maneuvers and 1x d6 superiority dice, supplying the same theme of the class feature while being clearly weaker (a bit too weak, but that's a topic for another thread). Rage doesn't really have the same kind of numbers to tweak. Advantage on Strength checks/saves is pretty much binary (you either have it or don't), and the same goes for resistance to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. That just leaves the only scaleable components as bonus rage damage and number of rages per day, both of which are at (+)2 each. Dropping those down to 1 or 0 neuters the feature so much that a 1 level dip for an un-nerfed version would almost always be taken instead.

[Citan]

Reading about the Martial adept feat got me thinking. a feat that allow the character that rage once a day would be fine for a lot of builds.
Disregarding Moon druid shenanigans how balanced would that be?

A lot like the Martial adept with battle master, I think the biggest draw would be for barbarian who want an additional rage per day at lower tiers.

I was thinking of tacking it to the Savage feat.
Hi!
Before I put my own opinion on this...


How many Dex Fighters have the STR and CON to make unarmoured defense worthwhile? Hell, it's practically a trap for Barbarians.

If you're talking about ridiculous rolled stats then maybe.

I've seen plenty of 2 and 3 level Barb dips, never a 1 level.
I'd say in the contrary it's better for Fighters dipping into Barbarians than for Barbarians themselves. You can go 14 STR, 16 DEX and 16 CON for starting stats (of course this means dumped mental stats) then use ASIs to bump DEX or CON.
Or even just go 16 STR instead and just bump CON. At low levels you'll get better milage from medium/heavy armor, at higher level it's a draw.
This may be interesting for two niche use-cases: being the best meatshield as you can (so CON first) or being a stealthy STR Fighter (for which nothing beats Unarmored or Mage Armor but the latter requires DEX solely).



^This
Rage is also far more unique than superiority dice and maneuvers. At 3 maneuvers (from a list of 16) and 4x d8 superiority dice at baseline Battle Master (plus requiring a 3 level dip), it was fairly simple to scale down to Martial Adept's 2 maneuvers and 1x d6 superiority dice, supplying the same theme of the class feature while being clearly weaker (a bit too weak, but that's a topic for another thread). Rage doesn't really have the same kind of numbers to tweak. Advantage on Strength checks/saves is pretty much binary (you either have it or don't), and the same goes for resistance to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. That just leaves the only scaleable components as bonus rage damage and number of rages per day, both of which are at (+)2 each. Dropping those down to 1 or 0 neuters the feature so much that a 1 level dip for an un-nerfed version would almost always be taken instead.
Completely agreed with this.

While I'm not as pessimist as others on the fact it would lure away (too) many people from multiclassing, I agree this is a risk. Unless you ban multiclass in your games obviously.
Especially since as people stressed it's a lvl 1 feature and not a level 3 contrarily to Metamagic or Manoeuvers.

So I see two ways to go at this.
1. Just make it a powerful effect but limited in time or with drawbacks, like:
"As a bonus action, you can let your inner instincts take control, focusing on survival first. Until the start (end?) of your next turn, you roll any Intelligence or Charisma save/check at disadvantage. Meanwhile, you get all benefits described for the Rage feature of the Barbarian class. You can use this feature once, and you regain its use when you finish a short or long rest."

-> This makes it still a very powerful feature (imo), bringing both offensive and defensive benefits, but the time restriction and penalties avoids making it a clear bite at Barbarian, making it clear this is not at all the same level of "mastery".

2. Make it a "tone-downed" Rage effect, that also adds to the total amount of Rage per day if you take it as a Barbarian.
Like...
"You learn how to hone your inner rage to empower your fighting prowesses. Once per day, as a bonus action, you can enter a state similar to a Rage: choose one, and one only, benefit among those listed in the Rage class feature. You otherwise follow all rules pertaining restrictions, duration and ending conditions.
If however you take this feat as a Barbarian, you get instead one additional use of your Rage class feature per long rest".

[stoutstien]

Hi!
Before I put my own opinion on this...


I'd say in the contrary it's better for Fighters dipping into Barbarians than for Barbarians themselves. You can go 14 STR, 16 DEX and 16 CON for starting stats (of course this means dumped mental stats) then use ASIs to bump DEX or CON.
Or even just go 16 STR instead and just bump CON. At low levels you'll get better milage from medium/heavy armor, at higher level it's a draw.
This may be interesting for two niche use-cases: being the best meatshield as you can (so CON first) or being a stealthy STR Fighter (for which nothing beats Unarmored or Mage Armor but the latter requires DEX solely).



Completely agreed with this.

While I'm not as pessimist as others on the fact it would lure away (too) many people from multiclassing, I agree this is a risk. Unless you ban multiclass in your games obviously.
Especially since as people stressed it's a lvl 1 feature and not a level 3 contrarily to Metamagic or Manoeuvers.

So I see two ways to go at this.
1. Just make it a powerful effect but limited in time or with drawbacks, like:
"As a bonus action, you can let your inner instincts take control, focusing on survival first. Until the start (end?) of your next turn, you roll any Intelligence or Charisma save/check at disadvantage. Meanwhile, you get all benefits described for the Rage feature of the Barbarian class. You can use this feature once, and you regain its use when you finish a short or long rest."

-> This makes it still a very powerful feature (imo), bringing both offensive and defensive benefits, but the time restriction and penalties avoids making it a clear bite at Barbarian, making it clear this is not at all the same level of "mastery".

2. Make it a "tone-downed" Rage effect, that also adds to the total amount of Rage per day if you take it as a Barbarian.
Like...
"You learn how to hone your inner rage to empower your fighting prowesses. Once per day, as a bonus action, you can enter a state similar to a Rage: choose one, and one only, benefit among those listed in the Rage class feature. You otherwise follow all rules pertaining restrictions, duration and ending conditions.
If however you take this feat as a Barbarian, you get instead one additional use of your Rage class feature per long rest".

The second option is what I was going for. Your is a lot less wordy than mind and I'm still unsure if it is worth a feat by itself.

[Zanthy1]

How many Dex Fighters have the STR and CON to make unarmoured defense worthwhile? Hell, it's practically a trap for Barbarians.

If you're talking about ridiculous rolled stats then maybe.

I've seen plenty of 2 and 3 level Barb dips, never a 1 level.

Exactly. Using point buy would get decent spread for this, but your cha, wis, and int would be dumps. Not that that isn't an option obviously, but ultimately there are better ways to achieve what you may be looking for, unless you go big and try to get those barbarian 3rd level features.

[Throne12]

I dont see how it would help any build outside barbarian or a moon druid. You cant wear heavy armor and you only get the rage damage if using str. There isn't any str builds that dont use heavy armor other then the two above.

[Citan]

The second option is what I was going for. Your is a lot less wordy than mind and I'm still unsure if it is worth a feat by itself.
To be honest, I'd say it's probably not as I've written it. I'd say it's close to the level of Savage Attacker, which is probably the one feat I agree with everyone is insufficient, even for a niche feat.

I actually thought very strongly to instead create a custom version of Rage but then it would have made very strange to say "if you're a Barbarian it's a regular rage".

In fact, maybe I've been going at it the wrong way too.

While I think if you make it a feat you have to keep something interesting specifically for Barbarian, we may go at it differently.

Like...
"You gain the ability to activate your inner instincts. You get the Rage class feature as described in the Barbarian class. You can use it once per long rest.
If however you already have this class feature from being a Barbarian, you instead get one additional use for it. In addition, when your rage would end early because you didn't fulfill the "attack or get damaged" condition, you can use a bonus action to make it persist nevertheless. You can use this feature once per short rest."

I think in fact this can be a much better feat than my previous propositions.
For a Barbarian, it gives a "tactical airbag" which makes easier to learn the ropes of sustaining rage. And if that doesn't kick in because player is good enough, getting another use of rage early on is still a solid enough benefit imo.

And for the other classes, it avoids the boring complexity of explaining how different that Rage would be. It's just a classic Rage but only once per long rest, period. :)

What do you think?

[stoutstien]

I dont see how it would help any build outside barbarian or a moon druid. You cant wear heavy armor and you only get the rage damage if using str. There isn't any str builds that dont use heavy armor other then the two above.
Not every feat needs to be useful to more than a few concepts. Look at sulker.
Could see a str hunter/horizon walker ranger who wants to go all out with whirlwind attack/nightcrawler wanting to add a layer of damage resistance or +2 damage to all the attacks.
Str rogues are a thing and could make a thug single class grappler.
Early resistance for a long death monk who wants to tank
Not Optimized but I like options

[DanyBallon]

If I were to create a feat giving access to the Rage feature, It would go like this:

Rage Outburst
In battle, you can channel your anger and unleash your rage upon your foes. On your turn, you can enter a rage as a bonus action.
While raging, you gain the following benefits:
You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
When you make a melee weapon attack using Strength, you gain a +1 bonus (or half proficiency bonus, I'm not sure yet) to the damage roll.
You have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
If you are able to cast spells, you can’t cast them or concentrate on them while raging.
Your rage lasts for 1d4 rounds. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action. When you rage ends, you suffer from a level of exhaustion.

If you already have the Rage feature, instead you can use your rage one more time per long rest.

As you would have noticed, the Rage Outburst is a bit different as it can be used with all type of armors, and have no restriction on how many times you can use it per long rest, and don't last as long (it's an outburst after all :smallwink:). The exhaustion at the end of the rage is a limiter on itself and also a reference to how ending rage was taxing in earlier editions.

[Yunru]

I had a whole bunch of them from way back when, for most classes:
Anger Point:
Once per day you may make use of the Barbarian's Rage feature.
While raging, your melee weapon attacks deal an additional 2 damage.

Expertise:
Expertise in two skills your proficient in, or one you're not.

Apostle:
Requires 13 Wis
Choose a Cleric's Domain. You gain access to that Domain's level 2 feature, and use of the Cleric's Channel Divinity feature. Once you use Channel Divinity this way, you can't do so again until you finish a long or short rest.

Beast Form:
Requires 13 Wis
You may use the Druid's Wild Shape ability. If you do this way, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
You count as having two extra levels of Druid for the purposes of the Wildshape feature.

Martial Adept:
You have martial training that allows you to perform special combat maneuvers. You gain the following benefits:
• You learn one maneuver of your choice from among those available to the Battle Master archetype in the fighter class. If a maneuver you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).
• If you already have superiority dice, you gain two more; otherwise, you have two superiority die, which is a d6. This die is used to fuel your maneuvers. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.

Ki Training:
Requires 13 Wis
You gain the Monk's Ki feature if you don't already have it, and get additional Ki Points equal to your Proficiency modifier. These Ki Points replenish whenever you finish a long or short rest.

Metamagic Initiate:
Requires 13 Cha, the ability to cast a spell
You have magical understanding that allows you to perform special tricks with your spells. You gain the following benefits:
• You learn one metamagic option of your choice from among those available to the Sorcerer. If a metamagic option you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier.
• You gain Sorcery Points equal to your proficiency, and your maximum number of Sorcery Points increases by the same amount. You regain your expended Sorcery Points when you finish a long rest.
I never finished refining them though.