Escaping Word of Chaos, Blasphemy, Holy Word & Dictum

[Pippin]

Hi there.

I was browsing an old thread of mine (link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414803-Blasphemy-Dictum-etc)) and it seems we never got to a final answer. The question was, is there a way to be immune to Dictum, Holy Word, Blasphemy and Word of Chaos? (All four spells together.) Silence was brought up as a working solution, but the last post notes that Energy Substitution applied to any of the spells would get around that. So the question is still somewhat open.

I believe that Timeless Body works, but it's not that much relevant.

[Troacctid]

Sure. Greater spell immunity. Done.

[Telonius]

Greater Spell Immunity would work on any one of them, but not all four at once (since you can only have one up at a time).

There are various ways of becoming immune to blinding, deafening, paralysis, and the Slow effect.

"Killed" is a harder one. The only way around that one I can see would be to somehow temporarily become a Construct (since it's neither living nor undead). There are a very few ways of doing that. The "Body of War" spell is probably the most effective one, but the bad part is that you'd have to have it readied. Urban Druid can change into a Construct at level 16 as well, which would probably be the best way to become immune and not also lose your mental stats for the duration.

[King of Nowhere]

How the hell does energy substitution work around silence? The holy word is a sound effect, not a sonic attack. It's not like you can swap it with holy fire or holy electricity.

[Zaq]

I believe that a horizon walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) with the Aligned planar mastery effect is immune to those spells under the “spells that harm those of an opposite alignment” clause. Costs more than a casual dip, but it also works all day every day with no questions asked.

[Telonius]

How the hell does energy substitution work around silence? The holy word is a sound effect, not a sonic attack. It's not like you can swap it with holy fire or holy electricity.

Yeah, I'm a bit leery of that interpretation as well. But I suppose you could apply Silent Spell to it.

... and that's interesting. Holy Word and Word of Chaos both specify that any creature within the radius that "hears" the spell is affected. Blasphemy and Dictum just say that any creature within the radius is affected.

[Pippin]

Sure. Greater spell immunity. Done.
Infinite spell resistance is not enough against Zodars or Dweomerkeepers.

[flappeercraft]

I believe there was some kind of mask in MIC that under stupid RAW made you immune to any effects that could blind/dazzle you. Yes you read right, not immunity to blindibg/dazzling, immunity to any effect that might cause them.

[fallensavior]

Be higher level?

[Troacctid]

Greater Spell Immunity would work on any one of them, but not all four at once (since you can only have one up at a time).
It works against one spell per four levels, so you just need to cast it at CL 16 or higher.

[Eldariel]

Immunity to the effects through e.g. PAO or Shapechange into Construct. Well, you need Daze immunity from Favor of the Martyr or similar (Mark of the Dauntless works, but feat investments are probably out of the question here).

[Caudex Capite]

Live inside an AMF or Dead Magic Zone, or use an Epic Spell with the Ward or Mythal seed. Ward lets you get straight immunity to them (or all spells of their level or lower), either targeted or as an area, and Mythal lets you make it impossible to cast them inside the area covered. Contigencies or Immediate action abilities to get out of range or break line of effect should work, too.

[ben-zayb]

Wings of Cover from RotD, which can also be used on adjacent allies if you happen to be dragonblooded.

The best way of escaping, though, is by simply being dead. It's doable as early as level 1.

[Crake]

The best way to achieve immunity to these is to be an extreme alignment of your choosing (LG, LE, CG, CE) and pick up the two opposing alignment descriptors via savage species rituals. You now no longer qualify as Non-X alignment, because you are all alignments.

If you're in pathfinder, as a wizard you can also get the Beyond Morality arcane discovery, which lets you treat yourself as the most favourable alignment along any particular axis as long as you're neutral on that axis, so if you're true neutral you can treat yourself as whichever alignment you choose against any particular effect.

[Troacctid]

The best way of escaping, though, is by simply being dead. It's doable as early as level 1.
You can actually do it at level 0 with negative levels!

[Zaq]

You can actually do it at level 0 with negative levels!

[Extreme and pointless pedantry]Hmm. Not sure about that. I don’t think you’d have enough time for the level loss to become permanent before you died. You’d still be level 1 with a negative level (which is different from level 0) until you waited 24 hours and failed the save against the negative level becoming permanent, and I don’t think that saving throw would even fire off on your corpse (or the wight that likely arose from your corpse).[/Extreme and pointless pedantry]




:smalltongue:

[Feantar]

A rather impractical way I could think of, is a contingency keyed to each of the spells, casting the relevant Soul of Something. (Soul of order for dictum for example)


[Extreme and pointless pedantry]Hmm. Not sure about that. I don’t think you’d have enough time for the level loss to become permanent before you died. You’d still be level 1 with a negative level (which is different from level 0) until you waited 24 hours and failed the save against the negative level becoming permanent, and I don’t think that saving throw would even fire off on your corpse (or the wight that likely arose from your corpse).[/Extreme and pointless pedantry]




:smalltongue:

I can't believe I am spending time on this but... You are constantly surrounded by bards who inspire competence greatness for 24 hours. That is a huge amount of bards and a splitting headache. You constantly have 2 extra HD. You fail the negative level save at 24 hours, and lose your class level. The bards stop singing. You wait 5 rounds. You... have 0 levels and HD. I am unsure if you die at that point, but if not, you tell the bards you cannot actually pay their salary, and they kill you. Thus, you're dead at level 0.

[KillianHawkeye]

The best way to achieve immunity to these is to be an extreme alignment of your choosing (LG, LE, CG, CE) and pick up the two opposing alignment descriptors via savage species rituals. You now no longer qualify as Non-X alignment, because you are all alignments.

In the same vein, be any LG, LE, CG, or CE Outsider with the two corresponding alignment subtypes and just decide to be the opposite alignment (example: WotC's succubus paladin). You are now every alignment.

[magic9mushroom]

Wings of Cover from RotD, which can also be used on adjacent allies if you happen to be dragonblooded.

Wings of Cover has bad wording, but I don't believe this should work. You have total cover against the foe, but you're not totally protected from area effects and these spells are spreads.

Silence (or being deaf) should work if you're Lawful Evil, because Holy Word and Word of Chaos specify that you have to hear the word (Dictum and Blasphemy do not).

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6 can use Reactive Warding with Indigo Veil to block the spells, and IotSV 7's violet veil will beat them even if (Su).

A Zodar cannot duplicate Words, because Wish's level limit for non Sor/Wiz spells is 6.

Ordered Chaos (a feat from Hordes of the Abyss) makes you immune to Word of Chaos (by making you count as Chaotic even if you're not). Not sure there's a way to count as both Good and Evil outside of getting an alignment subtype; I vaguely recall using one in a build once but I forget.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Nezram's Emerald Energy Shield (LEoF) makes you "immune to any natural or magical effect that causes deafness" so by RAW it protects against Holy Word, Dictum and Word of Chaos but not Blasphemy.
On the downside it's a 4th level sorc/wiz touch spell with a 1min/lvl duration.

Your best bet is probably the more general defense of having some kind of immediate action teleport on hand to block LoE (though it's harder because they're spreads) or get out of the area. Alternatively some kind of Earth Walk or incorporeality and immediate action movement also works.

[noce]

Divine Denial, requires Iron Will, gives +2 to saves against divine spells.
If the spell doesn't allow a save, you can attempt a will save nonetheless to negate the spell (and you enjoy both the +2 from Iron Will and the +2 from Divine Denial).

[magic9mushroom]

Nezram's Emerald Energy Shield (LEoF) makes you "immune to any natural or magical effect that causes deafness" so by RAW it protects against Holy Word, Dictum and Word of Chaos but not Blasphemy.
On the downside it's a 4th level sorc/wiz touch spell with a 1min/lvl duration.

Favour of the Martyr does the same thing for Dazed, which should get you out of Blasphemy. Pain to get your hands on, though, due to being Pal 4.

In the same vein as Divine Denial, there's Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. This is specifically pointed at Blasphemy and Word of Chaos, not Dictum or Holy Word, and it won't save you from the paralysis and death effects - but it does give you a save every round to break out of stun and daze, 4e style.

[Awakeninfinity]

Divine Denial, requires Iron Will, gives +2 to saves against divine spells.
If the spell doesn't allow a save, you can attempt a will save nonetheless to negate the spell (and you enjoy both the +2 from Iron Will and the +2 from Divine Denial).

Where's this feat located?

[Crake]

Divine Denial, requires Iron Will, gives +2 to saves against divine spells.
If the spell doesn't allow a save, you can attempt a will save nonetheless to negate the spell (and you enjoy both the +2 from Iron Will and the +2 from Divine Denial).

That's only for divine spells, and thus doesn't help against SLA or Su versions of the spells.

[noce]

Where's this feat located?

Exemplars of Evil, but it's not an evil-themed feat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's only for divine spells, and thus doesn't help against SLA or Su versions of the spells.
Actually SLA's count as divine if they're not on the sorc/wiz list but on the cleric list which applies to all four of them.


Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:
...
A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
You're right about Su versions though.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I'm a bit leery of that interpretation as well. But I suppose you could apply Silent Spell to it.

... and that's interesting. Holy Word and Word of Chaos both specify that any creature within the radius that "hears" the spell is affected. Blasphemy and Dictum just say that any creature within the radius is affected.

Does that mean you could argue that deafening yourself might protect you? Casting Deafness on yourself?

[Eurus]

Does that mean you could argue that deafening yourself might protect you? Casting Deafness on yourself?

Explicitly according to the rules for Sonic Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#sonicAttacks), "Stopping one’s ears ahead of time allows opponents to avoid having to make saving throws against mind-affecting sonic attacks, but not other kinds of sonic attacks (such as those that deal damage)."

Unfortunately, the alignment (word) spells don't have the Mind-Affecting tag, so this doesn't work for them. The silence spell, however, notes "This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks." So that does work.

There's no rule against using Silent Spell on Blasphemy, but there's also no rule to indicate that it would lose the Sonic tag. Presumably you don't need to speak the verbal component at that point, the unholy word is just magically produced.

[Eldan]

Explicitly according to the rules for Sonic Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#sonicAttacks), "Stopping one’s ears ahead of time allows opponents to avoid having to make saving throws against mind-affecting sonic attacks, but not other kinds of sonic attacks (such as those that deal damage)."

Unfortunately, the alignment (word) spells don't have the Mind-Affecting tag, so this doesn't work for them. The silence spell, however, notes "This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks." So that does work.

There's no rule against using Silent Spell on Blasphemy, but there's also no rule to indicate that it would lose the Sonic tag. Presumably you don't need to speak the verbal component at that point, the unholy word is just magically produced.

But holy word explicitely says "Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects."

Which seems to be in addition to the normal rules for sonic mind-affecting. I'd argue that being deaf actually would protect you.

[Crake]

Actually SLA's count as divine if they're not on the sorc/wiz list but on the cleric list which applies to all four of them.

You're right about Su versions though.

That's just talking about which version to use when there's multiple versions, for example a spell that exists on different lists at different levels, it doesn't say they become arcane or divine, SLAs themselves are neither arcane nor divine (or are all arcane if you go by the description of arcane sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)).

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's just talking about which version to use when there's multiple versions, for example a spell that exists on different lists at different levels, it doesn't say they become arcane or divine, SLAs themselves are neither arcane nor divine (or are all arcane if you go by the description of arcane sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)).

The part i bolded says it functions "just like a spell" apart from not being subject to or usable as counterspells. Spells are arcane or divine.

[magic9mushroom]

Guys, I'm not sure the argument over whether SLAs can be arcane or divine is very relevant here. Divine Denial protects against divine spells, and no SLA can possibly be a divine spell because it is not, in fact, a spell.

[Malphegor]

Dumb question- if they're sound based, wouldn't earmuffs work?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dumb question- if they're sound based, wouldn't earmuffs work?

No, that only works against mind-affecting sonic attacks.

Unless otherwise noted, a sonic attack follows the rules for spreads. The range of the spread is measured from the creature using the sonic attack. Once a sonic attack has taken effect, deafening the subject or stopping its ears does not end the effect. Stopping one’s ears ahead of time allows opponents to avoid having to make saving throws against mind-affecting sonic attacks, but not other kinds of sonic attacks (such as those that deal damage). Stopping one’s ears is a full-round action and requires wax or other soundproof material to stuff into the ears.

[Anthrowhale]

There is also Word of Balance which takes out extremist alignments, invalidating the Succubus Paladin approach.

I hadn't noticed Nezram's Emerald Energy Shield before. That leaves just Blasphemy and Word of Balance which you could defeat with a Neutral Evil alignment or Neutral Good with an [evil] subtype.

One thing to note about these words is that the caster is not immune by default so it's quite dangerous to Miracle a high caster level word of the wrong alignment.

[ben-zayb]

Dumb question- if they're sound based, wouldn't earmuffs work?It's less of dumb and more of deaf for these spells (minus Blasphemy)

[KillianHawkeye]

There is also Word of Balance which takes out extremist alignments, invalidating the Succubus Paladin approach.

What book is that from? I've never heard of it before....

[Anthrowhale]

What book is that from? I've never heard of it before....

Spell Compendium.

[KillianHawkeye]

There is also Word of Balance which takes out extremist alignments, invalidating the Succubus Paladin approach.


What book is that from? I've never heard of it before....


Spell Compendium.

Okay, but I see that it's only available to Druids and Balance domain Clerics. A Druid preparing this spell seems like a pretty specific "Screw You" that wouldn't come up very often, and I don't even know which deities grant the Balance domain, so this seems like something that won't come up as often as Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos (especially since those are core spells and Word of Balance isn't).

For one thing, I'm pretty sure there are a lot fewer monsters that have Druid casting compared to those that have Cleric casting.

[Anthrowhale]

Okay, but I see that it's only available to Druids and Balance domain Clerics. A Druid preparing this spell seems like a pretty specific "Screw You" that wouldn't come up very often, and I don't even know which deities grant the Balance domain, so this seems like something that won't come up as often as Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos (especially since those are core spells and Word of Balance isn't).

For one thing, I'm pretty sure there are a lot fewer monsters that have Druid casting compared to those that have Cleric casting.

I agree. It seems like a tool for a PC Archivist who has access to Word of Balance and Greater Spell Immunity to mitigate downsides for any extremist party elements. Most high level adversaries (Dragons, Outsiders, Undead) are extremist alignments making this fairly useful as a generic spell particularly with caster level increases. It's less effective against PCs because PCs are less often extremist.