Condensing Dwarven Defender down to 5 levels

[JoshuaZ]

(This argubaly should be in the homebrew forum but this is more of a balance question so I think it makes more sense here.)

The Dwarven Defender 3.5 prc is generally listed as +1 in the PrC tier ratings (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) but it has a lot of trouble being thematically satisfying for ten levels. I'm wondering if it would be overpowered if it were condensed to 5 levels as follows: Level 1 would be instead of being able to Defensive Stance 1/day one can use it class level times daily. Also at level 1, one gets DR (1+class level)/. Move Trap sense +1 to level 2, and move Trap sense +2 to level 4. Move Mobile defense and improved uncanny dodge to level 5.

Would this be overpowered? Would it move it up to +2 in the PrC tier list?

[HouseRules]

Tier is non-linear.

The usual +1 Prestige Class assumes PO entry without early entry. So a Tier 2 to Tier 1 is a +1, but not the same when applied to a Tier 3 entry. If a Prestige Class assumes Tier 2 entry is optimal, then Tier 3 entry would be stronger gain in the Tier improvements. A Tier 3 could improve to High Tier 2 or Low Tier 1 depending on how strong the Prestige Class in question.

Ur-Priest and other Fast Spell Progression could jump any character straight to Tier 2 or better tends to show why the Tier system is non-linear.

Edit: to see the tables.


LevelBABFORTREFWILLACSpecial
1+12.5 1/3 2.5 1.0 -> +1Defensive Stance 1/day, Uncanny Dodge
2+23 2/3 3 1.8 -> +1Defensive Stance 2/day, Trap Sense +1
3+33.5 1 3.5 2.6 -> +2Defensive Stance 3/day, Damage Reduction 3/--, Improved Uncanny Dodge *
4+44 1+1/3 4 3.4 -> +3Defensive Stance 4/day, Mobile Defense, Trap Sense +2 *
5+54.5 1+2/3 4.5 4.2 -> +4Defensive Stance 5/day, Damage Reduction 6/--

Compared to other classes, Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense grows faster.

[Eldariel]

(This argubaly should be in the homebrew forum but this is more of a balance question so I think it makes more sense here.)

The Dwarven Defender 3.5 prc is generally listed as +1 in the PrC tier ratings (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) but it has a lot of trouble being thematically satisfying for ten levels. I'm wondering if it would be overpowered if it were condensed to 5 levels as follows: Level 1 would be instead of being able to Defensive Stance 1/day one can use it class level times daily. Also at level 1, one gets DR (1+class level)/. Move Trap sense +1 to level 2, and move Trap sense +2 to level 4. Move Mobile defense and improved uncanny dodge to level 5.

Would this be overpowered? Would it move it up to +2 in the PrC tier list?

Eh. It'd definitely be fine. It's +1 because its entry class is so terrible; no optimised build is going to take lots of levels. 5 levels might make it more alluring, though the nature of Defensive Stance still makes it a bit "eh, whatever"-ish; DR and AC is nice but a class they do not make and the entry requirement feats are terrible. Certainly not +2 and it's not even +1 for a real martial class such as Warblade that gets actual class features.

[JoshuaZ]

Tier is non-linear.

The usual +1 Prestige Class assumes PO entry without early entry. So a Tier 2 to Tier 1 is a +1, but not the same when applied to a Tier 3 entry. If a Prestige Class assumes Tier 2 entry is optimal, then Tier 3 entry would be stronger gain in the Tier improvements. A Tier 3 could improve to High Tier 2 or Low Tier 1 depending on how strong the Prestige Class in question.

Ur-Priest and other Fast Spell Progression could jump any character straight to Tier 2 or better tends to show why the Tier system is non-linear.

This is all true, but I don't see how it is relevant to my question. The entry prerequisites for the class aren't changing here, just how how many levels the class is.

[JoshuaZ]

Eh. It'd definitely be fine. It's +1 because its entry class is so terrible; no optimised build is going to take lots of levels. 5 levels might make it more alluring, though the nature of Defensive Stance still makes it a bit "eh, whatever"-ish; DR and AC is nice but a class they do not make and the entry requirement feats are terrible. Certainly not +2 and it's not even +1 for a real martial class such as Warblade that gets actual class features.

That seems like a reasonable analysis to me. The feat requirements are definitely an issue; toughness is possibly the worst core feat. There might be campaigns where Endurance isn't an absolutely awful feat, but that's not saying it is a good feat either.

[AvatarVecna]

(This argubaly should be in the homebrew forum but this is more of a balance question so I think it makes more sense here.)

The Dwarven Defender 3.5 prc is generally listed as +1 in the PrC tier ratings (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) but it has a lot of trouble being thematically satisfying for ten levels. I'm wondering if it would be overpowered if it were condensed to 5 levels as follows: Level 1 would be instead of being able to Defensive Stance 1/day one can use it class level times daily. Also at level 1, one gets DR (1+class level)/. Move Trap sense +1 to level 2, and move Trap sense +2 to level 4. Move Mobile defense and improved uncanny dodge to level 5.

Would this be overpowered? Would it move it up to +2 in the PrC tier list?

First off: Dwarven Defender, in the very thing you linked, is ranked as a +0, not a +1. And from a certain point of view, that's fitting: if you put a Fighter 20 and a Fighter 10/Dwarven Defender 10 side-by-side to see how they compare, the fighter would have stronger offense, the DD would have stronger defense, and ultimately it'd end up being kind of a wash. DD is considered a +0 PrC because anything you would take DD on is going to be just as terrible/mediocre as it always is, just in a different way. Of course, the more practical answer for players is that DD is probably actually a -1 PrC because, while both builds are equally-passable for NPCs, PCs do not benefit from such a passive, immobile, defense-focused fighting style. On the player side of the screen, having your big strong damage dealer playing defense from a single square every fight is commonly referred to as "losing".

So, now that perspective is properly shifted, we're now looking at the real question: if DD is shortened to 5 levels, is that enough to bump a fighter build up to (for example) tier 3 - which, very generally speaking, is kinda like asking "is a Fighter X/DD 5 going to compete with an equal-ECL ToB class focusing on Stone Dragon options?", and that's a harder question to answer, although generally I'm going to lean "no" because the flexibility offered by maneuvers and the class features of the ToB classes seems more valuable than fighter class features plus getting a little bit tankier a little bit of the time.

[JoshuaZ]

First off: Dwarven Defender, in the very thing you linked, is ranked as a +0, not a +1.

And this shows that Josh should go and reread things before he links to them, and not rely on his fallible memory. Thanks for pointing that out.


On the player side of the screen, having your big strong damage dealer playing defense from a single square every fight is commonly referred to as "losing".

Ok. That's really on point and a hilarious way to phrase what's wrong with this class.

[HouseRules]

Would it move it up to +2 in the PrC tier list? No, unless the assumed entry is High Tier 3, but that is not likely for Dwarven Defender. Isn't the entry High Tier 4?


This is all true, but I don't see how it is relevant to my question. A VAGUE NO does not answer your question! You needed an EXPLICIT NO. So Pedantic!

[Eldariel]

Seriously though, if you bother to abbreviate the class, you might as well buff it a bit (e.g. remove some of the stupid entry prerequisites and give it something active to do like shielding nearby allies either physically or by granting them AC, making the terrain around the guy difficult or impassable, giving it some options for dealing with ranged attackers, etc. - things you'd expect out of somebody that's supposedly a bulwark of defense).

[JoshuaZ]

Seriously though, if you bother to abbreviate the class, you might as well buff it a bit (e.g. remove some of the stupid entry prerequisites and give it something active to do like shielding nearby allies either physically or by granting them AC, making the terrain around the guy difficult or impassable, giving it some options for dealing with ranged attackers, etc. - things you'd expect out of somebody that's supposedly a bulwark of defense).

Yeah, that also seems reasonable, and does move this fully into engaging in substantial homebrewing then.

[liquidformat]

smashing DD down to 5 levels does little to address the issues with the class. By level 7 DR 6/- is pretty much worthless much less at level 12 or worse 20. Also like AvatarVecna said standing in one spot makes you pretty much worthless and the entry feats are horrid.

If you want to make the prc worth using but still keep the same theme you would need to add in features that make the dd an increasing threat. Here are some possible changes that could make it powerful while keeping the same theme:
- Change requirement feats or maybe just get rid of them. I would go with (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, & Trip)
- Defensive stance increases your reach in exchange for not moving
- Size mods increase as if you increased in size for things like bull rush, grapple, and trip.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Remove Dodge from the prerequisites, condense it to five levels as stated, add three bonus feats--Roll With It at level 1 (provides a nice bump in the DR at level 1, and ties into the Toughness prereq--make sure it stacks), Combat Reflexes at level 2, Diehard at level 3--and increase Constitution by 2 points at level 5 as well. Defensive Stance is 1 + class level/day, Uncanny Dodge is moved to level 4. For Dwarven Defenders, Combat Reflexes becomes Constitution-based (and the Dexterity prerequisite is waived). Defensive Stance allows a 5' step to be taken by default, and Mobile Defense allows a second 5' step to be taken at level 3, and a third at level 5.

That way, you encourage D&D-style crowd control and compensate for the bad entry requirements, while making the whole thing fairly Constitution-SAD (which fits with dwarves wearing very heavy armour).

That's just a list of some things I'd consider; pick what you like, basically.

[Karl Aegis]

The class can be summed up as, "why didn't you just take Iron Will?". It doesn't do much more than add some weapon and armor proficiencies and patch up some saves. You might get some mileage out of it with an Aristocrat entry, but even that is iffy since the Aristocrat really wants it's skills to differentiate it from a Marshall or Warrior. It's still trading away strengths to patch weaknesses with the 5 level change. No +1 Prestige Class.

[AvatarVecna]

So, as I kinda talked at length about in some of the recent-ish Knight threads, being super-tough doesn't make you a good tank, you need some way of making the enemy have to deal with your tankiness. This can include trickery, enchantment-based forced targeting, reach-based/AoO-based area denial, protecting friends, buffing friends, or being too dangerous to ignore. Of these, reach/AoO area denial, protection, and being a threat are the ways to go for DD I think. Additionally, to keep it a versatile super-soldier like it should be, I think I'll give it a few different stances, and I'm gonna look at making it Con/Wis/Str focused, in that order, to make not just a living wall, but a true sentinel, a class that is capable of standing up to enormous monsters and endless hordes alike.

...and I think I found exactly the feat tree I want to focus on.



Hit Die

d12

Prerequisites

Race: Dwarf

BAB: +7

Feats: Two from the following in any combination: Combat Reflexes, any [Combat Form] feat

Class Skills

Autohypnosis, Craft, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot

Skill Points per Level

4+Int per level



Lvl
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Bonus Feat
Defensive Stance
Improved Focus


2
+2
+3
+0
+3
Armor Mastery
Prescient Sense
Uncanny Dodge


3
+3
+3
+1
+3
Interpose
Reactive Focus
Threatening Reach


4
+4
+4
+1
+4
Bonus Feat
Determination
Shield Mastery


5
+5
+4
+1
+4
Greater Focus
Improved Prescient Sense
Improved Uncanny Dodge


6
+6
+5
+2
+5
Greater Defensive Stance
Improved Interpose
Lockdown


7
+7
+5
+2
+5
Bonus Feat
Ever Vigilant
Undying Sentinel


8
+8
+6
+2
+6
Mobile Defense
Hoping For The Best
Prepared For The Worst


9
+9
+6
+3
+6
Immovable Object
Unstoppable Force
Perfect Interpose


10
+10
+7
+3
+7
Bonus Feat
Perfect Defensive Stance
Perfect Focus



Weapon/Armor Proficiency

Gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, as well as any exotic weapons with "Dwarven" in the name. Gain proficiency in all armors and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats

You gain a bonus feat at 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th level. These feats can be selected from the Fighter Bonus Feat list. Your levels in Dwarven Defense count as fighter levels for prereq purposes, and stack with fighter levels for the same purpose if you have any.

Defensive Stance

Starting at 1st level, when in your Combat Focus, you can choose to enter your Defensive Stance or your Mobile Stance. In your Defensive Stance, you cannot move more than half your speed until the Combat Focus ends, but you gain a +4 bonus to Constitution, a +2 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Wisdom, a +2 bonus to Armor Class, a +2 bonus to saving throws, and +2 bonus to Damage Reduction (stacking with any existing DR). If you enter your Mobile Stance, your speed is not limited, but all the bonuses provided are two points lower.

At 6th and 10th level, each of these bonuses increases by two points.

Improved Focus

Starting at 1st level, increase the duration of your Combat Focus by your class level and your Wisdom modifier. Additionally, at the start of your turn (taking no action) you may select one Combat Form feat you possess; this feat has its bonus improved by your Wisdom modifier for this round (or has its range increased by 5 ft per point of Wisdom modifier, in the case of Combat Awareness).

Armor Mastery

Starting at 2nd level, any armor or shield you use gains +1 bonus to its armor/shield bonus, +1 bonus to its Max Dex rating (if any), -1 reduction to its Armor Check Penalty, and -5% to its Arcane Spell Failure Chance. Additionally, you are no longer slowed down or rendered less capable of running by any armor, even exotic armors that specify they even slow down dwarves.

At every subsequent even level, you gain these bonuses again (self-stacking).

Prescient Sense

Beginning at 2nd level, if a dwarven defender makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally inflicts half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage, since her prescience allowed her to get out of the way faster. This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion ability used by monks and rogues.

At 5th level, this instead works like Improved Evasion, save for that it works in any armor as before.

Uncanny Dodge

As rogue.

Interpose

Starting at 3rd level, as an immediate action you can opt to absorb part of the damage dealt to an ally within your reach. Each time this ally takes damage from a physical attack before your next turn, you can take half this damage only absorb damage from physical melee attacks and ranged attacks, such as an incoming arrow or a blow from a sword, not from spells and other effects.

At 6th level, you instead take all the damage for your ally, with them taking none.

At 9th level, you instead take half damage, and your ally takes none.

Reactive Focus

Starting at 3rd level, while in your Combat Focus, you increase the number of AoOs you can make per round by your Wisdom modifier.

Threatening Reach

Starting at 3rd level, you increase your reach by 5 ft. Enemies moving through your threatened area treat the area as difficult terrain, and take a penalty to Tumble checks equal to your class level plus your Wisdom modifier. Moving through your threatened area provokes AoOs, unless that movement is a 5 ft step.

Determination

Starting at 4th level, you increase your Hit Point total by your Wisdom modifier per Hit Die.

Shield Mastery

Starting at 4th level, if you are using a shield, you add your shield bonus to Reflex saves and Touch AC.

Greater Focus

Upon reaching 5th level, you gain a [Combat Form] feat. Additionally, you can now enter Combat Focus multiple times per encounter, although every Combat Focus after the first can only be entered if you successfully make a Will save with a DC equal to the number of rounds you have already spent in Combat Focus this encounter, cumulatively. You can start a second Combat Focus immediately upon the previous one ending, effectively adding their durations together into one continuous Combat Focus if you can make the save. Finally, you can add your Wisdom bonus to one Combat Form feat's bonus at the start of every turn (no action); this can't be the same feat you enhanced with Improved Focus.

Improved Uncanny Dodge

As Rogue. Additionally, your effective rogue level for the purposes of avoiding sneak attacks is equal to your Dwarven Defender level, plus your Fighter level, plus any levels you have in a class that provides you with Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Lockdown

Starting at 6th level, any foe struck by your AoO has their speed for the round reduced to 0 ft.

Ever Vigilant

Starting at 7th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to your initiative modifier, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.

Undying Sentinel

Starting at 7th level, when you are reduced to 0 HP or lower, you remain conscious and can act as normal without suffering additional damage. Additionally, you are rendered dead when you reach a negative hit point total equal to 10 plus your Constitution score plus your Wisdom score plus your class level. Finally, if you possess fast healing, it functions while you are in negative hit points unless you are dead.

Mobile Defense

Starting at 8th level, your Defensive Stance no longer penalizes your movement.

Hoping For The Best

Starting at 8th level, you gain a morale bonus to all Will saves equal to the number of living allies within 60 ft of you, to a maximum of your class level. Additionally, you are now immune to fear effects.

Prepared For The Worst

You no longer automatically fail when you roll a natural one on an attack roll or save, and enemies no longer automatically succeed on a nat 20 attack roll or save against you; instead, success or failure is determined by the roll's total.

Immovable Object

Starting at 9th level, you add your Constitution modifier to any check or save made to resist being moved or tripped against your will. Additionally, whenever you are successfully moved against your will, you are only moved half the distance. This ability even works on certain natural forces; falling damage, pressure damage, and being hit by falling objects deals half normal damage to you.
Unstoppable Force

Starting at 9th level, you add your Constitution modifier to checks made to move or trip others against their will, to checks made to break or sunder objects, and to damage rolls. Additionally, your attacks ignore hardness.

Perfect Focus

Starting at 10th level, you may add your Wisdom modifier to another [Combat Form] feat's bonus at the beginning of each round (no action), which cannot be the same feat as you improved with Improved Focus or Greater Focus. Additionally, the DC to activate a new Combat Focus/extend a previous Combat Focus is halved. Finally, while in your Combat Focus, you roll saves twice and take the better roll, and you cannot die from hit point loss. If your Combat Focus ends (and you failed to extend it via the Greater Focus ability), and you are still far enough into negative HP that you would be dead, you die.

...so, yeah. This is a class with some solid melee offense and super-strong defense, who can lock down large areas and has up to six feats giving them some significant bonuses on top of Defensive Stance, up to three of which are even stronger than normal. It's gonna be hellishly difficult making them fail a save, or even hitting them for that matter, they've got some decent mobility even in the heaviest of heavy armors, and they're equally capable of taking on super-bosses and armies. The default fluff of Dwarven Defender makes out like a small handful of them can hold back a horde, when really they would fall quite easily even with their DR, but this...I'm confident a small group of these dwarven defenders could combine high AC, high HP, decent fast healing, decent DR, and cycling Combat Focuses to hold out for quite some time against a sizable goblin force.

I dunno if this would be enough to knock a Fighter up to T2 - it's not really doing enough of a variety for that, I think - but it's certainly T3 in my mind, definitely competing with ToB builds.

[Zaq]

On the player side of the screen, having your big strong damage dealer playing defense from a single square every fight is commonly referred to as "losing".



Ok. That's really on point and a hilarious way to phrase what's wrong with this class.

My favorite way I’ve ever seen it is “Oh no! A dwarven defender! Everyone, walk briskly!”

[Troacctid]

5 levels? You could easily cut it down to 3 without causing any problems.

[HouseRules]

5 levels? You could easily cut it down to 3 without causing any problems.

Most of the Tier 5 Prestige Classes could be cut down to even a single level and they are not a problem.

We are pretty sure that Dwaven Defender is not so great as it bumps Tier 4 classes to Tier 3, but there is no way it could bump a Tier 4 class to Tier 2.

[Karl Aegis]

Most of the Tier 5 Prestige Classes could be cut down to even a single level and they are not a problem.

We are pretty sure that Dwaven Defender is not so great as it bumps Tier 4 classes to Tier 3, but there is no way it could bump a Tier 4 class to Tier 2.

The only prestige classes that will bump a tier 4 to a tier 2 is a base class with a wig on it. Why don't you just play the base class, then?

[HouseRules]

The only prestige classes that will bump a tier 4 to a tier 2 is a base class with a wig on it. Why don't you just play the base class, then?

Uh, so wig has some kind of double meaning I'm not getting here.

Also, If you start with 4 levels of Tier 4 class and 16 levels of Tier 1 class, your build is usually High Tier 2.

[Karl Aegis]

Uh, so wig has some kind of double meaning I'm not getting here.

Also, If you start with 4 levels of Tier 4 class and 16 levels of Tier 1 class, your build is usually High Tier 2.

If you have 19 levels of a Tier 6 class and 1 level of a Tier 1 class your build is Tier 1. If it isn't, you aren't leveraging your Tier 1 class abilities enough. That's... literally how the tier system works.

[HouseRules]

If you have 19 levels of a Tier 6 class and 1 level of a Tier 1 class your build is Tier 1. If it isn't, you aren't leveraging your Tier 1 class abilities enough. That's... literally how the tier system works.

Let's see how strong a Commoner 19 / Wizard 1 is compared to a Fighter 4 / Cleric 16.

Edit; Sorry about not specifying BASE and PRESTIGE classes in the earlier post that lead to your reply.

[Eladrinblade]

I would just leave it alone. The powergaming crowd has ToB and a million other splats, the core crowd will find it to be basically the best tank available.

[Endarire]

The Tome of Battle already sorta replaced it with the Deepstone Sentinel.

[Blackhawk748]

I would just leave it alone. The powergaming crowd has ToB and a million other splats, the core crowd will find it to be basically the best tank available.

Actually that would be the Barbarian, Cleric or Paladin. Y'know, people who can move? And I actually don't hate the Dwarven Defender, because it can work with the right party, but it is terrible. Smooshing it down to 5 levels will help greatly in making it suck less. Now just change the entry feats and we can talk....