Short rest 'resources' should refresh up to 2x/day largely at the player's discretion

[Fryy]

There are recurring discussions around balancing 'short rest' vs 'long rest' classes (particularly related to the Warlock class). I'm not sure if this has ever been proposed before, but how about this...

Suggested home-brew rule changes:
1. Players could individually choose to recharge their short-rest resources up to twice per day (24 hours).
This puts both short rest and long rest activities on the same 'daily' resource restriction.
2. The recharge would take 10 minutes from player declaration with no restriction on the character activity.
So... fight, run, hide, rest, travel, or whatever.
3. Recharging short rest resources would become an individual activity and not a group activity.
4. Short rests would be separated from recharging short rest resources.
Basically, short rests be still be used for recovery of hit dies, and etc... everything as today except 'recharges'.

If 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests per day is 'suggested', then why leave it so completely up to the individual DM as to how individual players allocate what should be their daily allotment of resources.

My question to you all is would this suggestion make your gameplay and or your fun (a) 'better', (b) 'worse', or (c) 'the same' in your games? I don't (as yet) see how it would make things worse. What are your thoughts? I'm curious.

[Unoriginal]

If 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests per day is 'suggested', then why leave it so completely up to the individual DM as to how individual players allocate what should be their daily allotment of resources.

It's not suggested. Nor implied, or advised.

And as to "why", well, you can do whatever you want at your table, of course, but there is a value to limitations.

[Fryy]

It's not suggested. Nor implied, or advised.

Well, it's quoted often enough that it must originate from somewhere (DMG, Crawford, Mearls?).
But, I am not particularly interested in exploring the origins of '6 encounters/ 2 short rests per day'.

I am interested in how the experts here think my suggested changes (above) to the rules would affect class balance... particularly for Warlocks.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's not suggested. Nor implied, or advised.

And as to "why", well, you can do whatever you want at your table, of course, but there is a value to limitations.


Well, it's quoted often enough that it must originate from somewhere (DMG, Crawford, Mearls?).
But, I am not particularly interested in exploring the origins of '6 encounters/ 2 short rests per day'.

I am interested in how the experts here think my suggested changes (above) to the rules would affect class balance... particularly for Warlocks.

The odd 6-8 encounter argument doesn't feel or sound right, but I think it was mentioned somewhere in the DMG.

I can say that after doing a lot of recent research, class balance reflects that:

Short Rest characters (Warlocks/Fighters) catch up to Long Rest characters (Wizards/Paladins) after about 2 Short Rests in a day.
-AND-
Long Rest characters start to dwindle in resources around the 10th combat round of constantly using resources before a Long Rest. Short Rest characters run out of resources after the 2nd-3rd combat round.

I'd estimate that perfect balance estimates about 8-12 combat rounds a day, with 2-3 Short Rests divided amongst those combat rounds.

-OR-

Every 3-4 Combat Rounds, budget in a Short Rest, with a minimum of 1 Short Rest per Long Rest. (You don't actually need to enforce a minimum, you really want to hit about 2 Short Rests per day as an average, but you're much more likely to have a day with too few of Short Rests than you are to have a day with too many)

[Shuruke]

Not sure if it helps but in my West march campaign in order to keep sessions bit quicker in pacing

I reward Guild tokens and it allows a character to instantly gain the effects of Catnap spell by breaking token as an action.

I haven't come across any issues of it being game breaking and it keeps things quick

[opaopajr]

I'm not seeing the pressing need for more mechanics or formalization here. :smallconfused: All I need is a PC to let me know they are taking it easy for a short rest and tell me what sort of light activity (or activities) they'll be engaging in. :smallsmile: Riding in a cab to go to an inn to eat & drink for lunch, maybe chat with whoever is there? OK, done and done.

Is there a range of interpretation? Naturally. However keep the word "REST" in mind and follow an interpretation that makes sense to you. Wanna ride a horse to the inn, perform a bawdy song & dance, and finish it up with you in a game of cards, cheating by sleight of hand and intimidation to bluff? Well, sounds rather active for a short rest to me... :smallamused:

[Unoriginal]

Well, it's quoted often enough that it must originate from somewhere (DMG, Crawford, Mearls?).

It's a misconception due to the DMG saying that the group will run out of ressources after 6-8 medium encounters (with 2 short rests in between).

My point was to take this premise with a Yellowstone-size grain of salt.

[fbelanger]

I like the swingy aspect of DnD.
It include class that are not on same timing on ressource management.

It is not a shame to make some fights without spell slots available. Or to finish the day with a lot of slots remaining.

Warlock is build around low number of spell slot and an intensive use of eldritch blast. Some day it will be better than a paladin or wizard, some day it will be worse.

The good question is why do we have always the same number of fights in a day?

[Malifice]

It's a misconception due to the DMG saying that the group will run out of ressources after 6-8 medium encounters (with 2 short rests in between).

My point was to take this premise with a Yellowstone-size grain of salt.

It's no misconception.

The DMG is explicit. 2 short rests per adventuring day.

The math reflects this as well.

[Citan]

There are recurring discussions around balancing 'short rest' vs 'long rest' classes (particularly related to the Warlock class). I'm not sure if this has ever been proposed before, but how about this...

Suggested home-brew rule changes:
1. Players could individually choose to recharge their short-rest resources up to twice per day (24 hours).
This puts both short rest and long rest activities on the same 'daily' resource restriction.
2. The recharge would take 10 minutes from player declaration with no restriction on the character activity.
So... fight, run, hide, rest, travel, or whatever.
3. Recharging short rest resources would become an individual activity and not a group activity.
4. Short rests would be separated from recharging short rest resources.
Basically, short rests be still be used for recovery of hit dies, and etc... everything as today except 'recharges'.

If 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests per day is 'suggested', then why leave it so completely up to the individual DM as to how individual players allocate what should be their daily allotment of resources.

My question to you all is would this suggestion make your gameplay and or your fun (a) 'better', (b) 'worse', or (c) 'the same' in your games? I don't (as yet) see how it would make things worse. What are your thoughts? I'm curious.
Hi!

Honestly? IMO and for my games (player or DM) it would make things not really "worse", but rather... Very bland.

Classes are different for a reason. They each have different situations in which they will shine because they are the most suited to overcome it.

As such, I like that adventuring days are different from one another. Sometimes you'll have just one or two encounters a day and know it in advance, allowing everyone to blow a good chunk of resources with obviously long-rest guys getting a head above.
Sometimes you'll spend the whole day just wandering about in a city, allowing Knowledge Clerics, Monks and more importantly Warlocks to display their awesomeness because they can easily get two or three short rests in a day.
Sometimes party will invade a dungeon without too much knowledge about enemy forces, so everyone is sparing resources until/unless sure to get a rest, and party will (or at least should) help the short-rest ones regain resources because it's the optimal way to manage, without any guaranteee to succeed.
While on that, I regularly see also friends playing long-rest casters that end kinda frustrated at the end of the day, because they were too sparingful about their spells "in case of" and ended playing half their actual strengths during those past encounters. But at the same time, it's those players that often save the party when **** hits the fan precisely because of their carefulness.

In short, the fact that short rest is a variable quantity does participate in my view to the mechanics that make games interesting. Because situations that players encounter can and usually are (and should) be very different from one time to another.


Conversely, if one player came to me as a DM complaining that he feel frustrated because of resource management, I'll put it on him, or me, or everyone, in last resort on bad luck or misunderstanding in everyone's expectations put in session 0. Rarely, if not never, on game design. :)

[Unoriginal]

It's no misconception.

The DMG is explicit. 2 short rests per adventuring day.

The math reflects this as well.

"You can have 6-8 Medium encounters with two short rests between long rests before running out of ressources" is not and does not imply "we suggest/we recomand/you must have 6-8 encounters".

Many people think the DMG saying the former somehow translate into the latter, so it IS a misconception.

[Keravath]

Here is the text from the DMG. The way it is phrased indicates that these are the expectations of the game designers based on the way the classes are designed. Varying from this is perfectly ok but you can't expect the available resources of the individual characters to remain comparable if you vary an adventuring day far from the guidelines in the DMG.

A lot of tables might have an adventuring day based on two or three difficult combat encounters. The longer these are the more the drain on character resources. Without short rests, the short rest resource classes will run out of resources with fewer but longer and more challenging encounters. How this plays out is entirely up to the DM. In the case of three challenging encounters in a day the party should probably be allowed a short rest between each if they wish (assuming that it fits the narrative).

DMG:

THE ADVENTURING DAY
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

SHORT RESTS
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

[Unoriginal]

THE ADVENTURING DAY
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

SHORT RESTS
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

Emphasis's mine.


Here is the text from the DMG. The way it is phrased indicates that these are the expectations of the game designers based on the way the classes are designed.

This is the expectations of what the classes are capable of. NOT of what they should get through.

Again, "you can handle X" does not mean "you should handle" or "we suggest you handle X".

The game designers wrote what they expected the PCs to be able to handle, with no expectation on what they should or handle in an adventuring day.

[Tanarii]

IMX players will always push on for more than that, if given a chance (ie you can fit it into one session), and the cost of not doing so is retreating from the adventuring site and ending the session.

Honestly, I've come to the conclusion they didn't blindly pick "6 Medium encounters or 3 Deadly encounters" blindly. That's how many you can reasonably fit into a single 3-4 hour session, with exploration in between. It also matches typical official play DDEX adventure structure, at least the early ones. And to a degree, the official play adventure structure that was ongoing during the previous edition, albeit faster/more encounters due to faster rules. It's very clearly an outgrowth of official play sessions typical length and structure during the DnDNext play testing period.

[Mitsu]

I was tired of this stupid short and long rest system in 5e so I just made all short-rest classes long rest too. I increased Warlock slots to match other casters, gave Battlemaster two times more superiority dices etc, made action surge one per Long Rest etc. I just adjust if something feels off.

So far (6 sessions in) it's been working wonders and no more short rest/long rest dilemma. Everybody have resources per long rest and we just play.

I know its unpopular solution but for me it works much better than short rest system in 5E so far.

[Hail Tempus]

I really don't get why short rests are so troubling to so many DM's and players. The archetypical dungeon (it's even in the name of the game) has a variety of encounters with monsters, traps and puzzles, and gives the PCs a number of locations where they can take a breather (and if you've got a spellcaster with Rope Trick in a party, getting a short rest becomes trivial).

And what players don't want to give their party a chance to recover resources and/or use hit dice to heal?

[Unoriginal]

I was tired of this stupid short and long rest system in 5e so I just made all short-rest classes long rest too. I increased Warlock slots to match other casters, gave Battlemaster two times more superiority dices etc, made action surge one per Long Rest etc. I just adjust if something feels off.

So far (6 sessions in) it's been working wonders and no more short rest/long rest dilemma. Everybody have resources per long rest and we just play.

I know its unpopular solution but for me it works much better than short rest system in 5E so far.

One Action Surge per Long rest?

Gods and angels, now that's a nerf.

[Man_Over_Game]

I was tired of this stupid short and long rest system in 5e so I just made all short-rest classes long rest too. I increased Warlock slots to match other casters, gave Battlemaster two times more superiority dices etc, made action surge one per Long Rest etc. I just adjust if something feels off.

So far (6 sessions in) it's been working wonders and no more short rest/long rest dilemma. Everybody have resources per long rest and we just play.

I know its unpopular solution but for me it works much better than short rest system in 5E so far.

I do something similar, using the Adrenaline Surge homebrew in my signature. Basically, the boss of the day gets harder while everyone else gets a Short Rest at the cost of Exhaustion.

That way, if I feel lazy and only want to have one-two big encounters for the day, I don't have to take it out on the Warlock/Fighter.

[Mitsu]

One Action Surge per Long rest?

Gods and angels, now that's a nerf.

So far it works good for party Fighter. It's a super strong feature. I may increase Actions Surge to 2 per level when they get it, from only one. As I said- I adjust when it feels off. I talk with my players about it so we make sure are all satisfied with it. It's work in progress.

But I just don't like "short rest" classes idea personally.

[ThePolarBear]

Emphasis's mine.

"For each character in the party, use the Adventuring Day XP table to estimate how much XP that character is expected to earn in a day."

Which is an expectation, not the capability of a creature to handle. If you make a bit of math, you end up with values that fall within 6-8 medium encounters each day (with one anomaly at level 12)

So yeah, you are EXPECTED to have between 6-8 medium encounters each adventuring day, on top of the assumption of what a party can actually handle.

It really shouldn't even have come to such a nitpick, however, and i agree that expectations of the math behind the game is not really always indicative of what is good for the game.

[Hail Tempus]

So far it works good for party Fighter. It's a super strong feature. I may increase Actions Surge to 2 per level when they get it, from only one. As I said- I adjust when it feels off. I talk with my players about it so we make sure are all satisfied with it. It's work in progress.

But I just don't like "short rest" classes idea personally. So, do all the short rest classes get their short rest recharge abilities doubled or tripled? And it seems like you'd be nerfing abilities and feats that function as part of a short rest, like Song of Rest, Arcane Recovery or Inspiring Leader.

It's fine that it works for your table, but getting rid of short rests throws a lot of things out of whack.

[Mitsu]

So, do all the short rest classes get their short rest recharge abilities doubled or tripled? And it seems like you'd be nerfing abilities and feats that function as part of a short rest, like Song of Rest, Arcane Recovery or Inspiring Leader.

It's fine that it works for your table, but getting rid of short rests throws a lot of things out of whack.

Doubled so far.

[ThePolarBear]

Doubled so far.

Question: how do you handle Hit Dice? Have you just removed "Short Rests" or they are still in the game, prehaps in a different form?

[Hail Tempus]

Doubled so far. Then for a longer adventuring day, with 6-8 encounters, you're probably shortchanging short rest classes, most notably monks, fighters, and bards (once bardic inspirations start recharging on a short rest), who could've expected 3 times their short rest resources under the general adventuring day guidelines.

Your approach weakens short rest classes while also distorting resource management for those classes. For example, an 8th level monk is going to approach a short adventuring day (say, 2-3 encounters) very differently with 16 ki points versus 8.

[Man_Over_Game]

Then for a longer adventuring day, with 6-8 encounters, you're probably shortchanging short rest classes, most notably monks, fighters, and bards (once bardic inspirations start recharging on a short rest), who could've expected 3 times their short rest resources under the general adventuring day guidelines.

Your approach weakens short rest classes while also distorting resource management for those classes. For example, an 8th level monk is going to approach a short adventuring day (say, 2-3 encounters) very differently with 16 ki points versus 8.

To be fair, a potential 3 uses and a guaranteed 1 doesn't sound as good as a guaranteed 2 uses. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

A Warlock is supposed to get his spell slots 3 times in a day, is guaranteed his spell slots once, and is offered just to be guaranteed them twice. Considering the same DM is likely never going to be using Short Rests in the first place (and will never hit that perfect balance of 2 Short Rests), the Warlock definitely comes out ahead (at least compared to staying a Short Rest character at the same table).

[Jamesps]

I used this exact mechanic for several campaigns I've run (except I only required 5 minutes). The first time was with brand new players who had never played before and didn't know enough about rest mechanics to have an initial opinion. I introduced the mechanic about half way through the game and it was universally supported as a positive addition to gameplay.

The following times were with more veteran players, but only one played a character with a short rest dependent set of abilities so it wasn't used much except for recovery hp.

I didn't think either game felt particularly gamey because of the addition of this mechanic. In fact, I'd say it felt a lot less gamey. Instead of the group asking if they could settle down and take a short rest every so often in the middle of the game, one or two characters would occasionally mention they were taking a quick breather during a break in the action. I felt it was a lot less intrusive than the standard mechanic.

[Hail Tempus]

A Warlock is supposed to get his spell slots 3 times in a day, is guaranteed his spell slots once, and is offered just to be guaranteed them twice. Considering the same DM is likely never going to be using Short Rests in the first place (and will never hit that perfect balance of 2 Short Rests), the Warlock definitely comes out ahead (at least compared to staying a Short Rest character at the same table). Hmm... but since he gave Warlocks the same spell slot progression as other full casters, while keeping their invocations and pact bonuses, that's a significant power upgrade for the character class.

Tons of unintended consequences from messing with short rests.

[Pex]

I really don't get why short rests are so troubling to so many DM's and players. The archetypical dungeon (it's even in the name of the game) has a variety of encounters with monsters, traps and puzzles, and gives the PCs a number of locations where they can take a breather (and if you've got a spellcaster with Rope Trick in a party, getting a short rest becomes trivial).

And what players don't want to give their party a chance to recover resources and/or use hit dice to heal?

Cynical DM: Cannot stand player characters being powerful and repeatedly doing stuff means they're powerful. Therefore rests must be minimum.

Cynical Player: There's no limit to how often he can do stuff except by resting so more rests equals doing more stuff equals ultimate power. Therefore rests must be maximum.

Normal DM & Player: Let game play determine when rests are appropriate and/or necessary and don't worry about it. If rests are happening too often or too little discuss the matter to find a solution, but then we wouldn't have intense forum debates so this is ignored.

[mephnick]

I really don't get why short rests are so troubling to so many DM's and players. The archetypical dungeon..

People forgot what DnD is designed for and don't use dungeons anymore. They just mangle their political war thriller campaign into 5e and then complain it doesn't work.

[Grog Logs]

There are recurring discussions around balancing 'short rest' vs 'long rest' classes (particularly related to the Warlock class). I'm not sure if this has ever been proposed before, but how about this...

Suggested home-brew rule changes:
1. Players could individually choose to recharge their short-rest resources up to twice per day (24 hours).
This puts both short rest and long rest activities on the same 'daily' resource restriction.
2. The recharge would take 10 minutes from player declaration with no restriction on the character activity.
So... fight, run, hide, rest, travel, or whatever.
3. Recharging short rest resources would become an individual activity and not a group activity.
4. Short rests would be separated from recharging short rest resources.
Basically, short rests be still be used for recovery of hit dies, and etc... everything as today except 'recharges'.

If 6 encounters per day with 2 short rests per day is 'suggested', then why leave it so completely up to the individual DM as to how individual players allocate what should be their daily allotment of resources.

My question to you all is would this suggestion make your gameplay and or your fun (a) 'better', (b) 'worse', or (c) 'the same' in your games? I don't (as yet) see how it would make things worse. What are your thoughts? I'm curious.

TLDR; Better because of the mathematical assumptions/foundations of the game.

This is basically what I do as a DM and it works great. The main differences is that I also use Gritty Realism.

The only problematic aspect that I could see with your plan is that you reduced the short rest from 1 hour to 10 minutes which may have interaction effects with spells that have a duration of 1 hour. So, some spells become more powerful (e.g., Armor of Agathys, Hunters Mark, Aid, Pad Workout Trace, Conjure Elemental, Magic Weapon), if properly cheesed. However, I think that these combos are less likely to break your game than unmitigated short rests.

In terms of the bigger issue, I am a firm believer that the math of D&D is built upon the assumption of 2 short rests per long rest. PERIOD. You can violate this math periodically, as the math is based upon averages and statistics. But, if you regularly do things to violate the math, then you are causing potential breaks in your game. Yes, of course, you can do whatever you want at your own table, but consistently deviating from 2 SR/LR is no different than giving out +2 Weapons at Level 5 (or refusing to give out any magic items for the whole campaign). The game was not made for that. If you have fun with that, great. The only exception to not breaking the math is if your Party consisted of only SR or only LR classes.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's a shame that most D&D "resources" aren't granular enough to just split them up so that they restore 1/4 or 1/3 on a short rest, and fully on a long rest.

For spells, at least, going to the "spell point" system and doing something like that for all casters (recover fraction of spell points on short rest, all spell points on long rest) might be a way to clear up the problems of short vs long rest casters.

[Man_Over_Game]

TLDR; Better because of the mathematical assumptions/foundations of the game.

This is basically what I do as a DM and it works great. The main differences is that I also use Gritty Realism.

The only problematic aspect that I could see with your plan is that you reduced the short rest from 1 hour to 10 minutes which may have interaction effects with spells that have a duration of 1 hour. So, some spells become more powerful (e.g., Armor of Agathys, Hunters Mark, Aid, Pad Workout Trace, Conjure Elemental, Magic Weapon), if properly cheesed. However, I think that these combos are less likely to break your game than unmitigated short rests.

In terms of the bigger issue, I am a firm believer that the math of D&D is built upon the assumption of 2 short rests per long rest. PERIOD. You can violate this math periodically, as the math is based upon averages and statistics. But, if you regularly do things to violate the math, then you are causing potential breaks in your game. Yes, of course, you can do whatever you want at your own table, but consistently deviating from 2 SR/LR is no different than giving out +2 Weapons at Level 5 (or refusing to give out any magic items for the whole campaign). The game was not made for that. If you have fun with that, great. The only exception to not breaking the math is if your Party consisted of only SR or only LR classes.

Well said.