Fast Hands and Magic Items

[Quoz]

While looking for ideas for a backup character I saw some serious combo potential but wanted to know if its rules legal or if I'm completely off base.

The base idea I saw was putting a Wand of Paralysis in the hands of a thief rouge for bonus action auto critical. I know it would require a multiclass, I was thinking bladesinger would be particularly fun.

So, does it work? Does it extend to other options?

- As I read it, there isn't a separate entry for 'Activate a magic item' from 'Use an Object'. It is an attack, but so is an acid flask or alchemist fire and those seem fine with fast hands.

- most other wands and staffs are used to cast spells. Do those count as a 'Use an Item' or 'Cast a Spell'? I could see valid points for both sides of that argument. Would these be valid as a bonus action with Quick Hands? Would they be valid uses of sorcerer metamagic like quicken or twin?

(Semi-related) Do items that store spells like a ring of spell storing retain features of the original caster? Not just save DC, but things like Metamagic or a dragon sorcerer's elemental bonus?

[Coffee_Dragon]

- As I read it, there isn't a separate entry for 'Activate a magic item' from 'Use an Object'. It is an attack, but so is an acid flask or alchemist fire and those seem fine with fast hands.

DMG, p141. "If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."

[Quoz]

Of course 5e wouldn't put the rules in the PHB. It did sound too good to be true.

[LudicSavant]

Of course 5e wouldn't put the rules in the PHB.

You really should read the DMG. Like it or not, lots of the rules that PCs should really know are in there. Including definitions of various terms in the PHB that you need to know in order to understand the rules in the PHB, too.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Of course 5e wouldn't put the rules in the PHB. It did sound too good to be true.

There are two separate ways to look at this for a better perspective. I would advise the first one over the second.
1) The Basic Rules cover nearly every necessity of playing the game, including the DMG section this rule is found in. I would recommend at the bare minimum having a copy of the SRD handy as a player if only for the magic item rules.
2) The PHB doesn't cover rules for magic items on its own, it makes sense that any edge cases like this would fall under the DM's adjudication.

Everybody should have a reference copy of the SRD. It's free and covers most rules within the game.

[ad_hoc]

Of course 5e wouldn't put the rules in the PHB. It did sound too good to be true.

They put the rules governing magic items in the section that has magic items.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Azgeroth]

just to simplify, Fast Hands allows you to Use an Item, as a bonus action.

note, that is Use an Item, not, Use a Magic Item.

so wands are out, as are potions, scrolls, or anything else magical.

anything on the Adventuring Equipment list however is an item, and does qualify (tool use may also qualify, check with your DM)

my 2 favourites are, BEAR TRAP! and healers kit.

[Coffee_Dragon]

anything on the Adventuring Equipment list however is an item, and does qualify

Except the healing potion.

[Tanarii]

Of course 5e wouldn't put the rules in the PHB. It did sound too good to be true.
Not only that, it's an annoyingly stupid rule. That's exactly the kind of thing Fast Hands should be for.

[Willie the Duck]

Not only that, it's an annoyingly stupid rule. That's exactly the kind of thing Fast Hands should be for.

While I certainly would not disagree about the 'should' part, I deeply suspect it was never what the designers had in mind (I think even things like the healer's kit were accidental). I think they thought that Rogues would want to be constantly switching between hand crossbows and rapier (/paired shortswords, etc.), and/or opening and closing doors to hide in various spots, etc. Being able to do two in a round was going to be a significant benefit.

[Tanarii]

While I certainly would not disagree about the 'should' part, I deeply suspect it was never what the designers had in mind (I think even things like the healer's kit were accidental). The reason I think it's stupid, and certainly should have been in their minds, is we're talking about the Thief here. UMD is part of their historical legacy. And Fast Hands applying to magic items fits perfectly with that.

[Willie the Duck]

The reason I think it's stupid, and certainly should have been in their minds, is we're talking about the Thief here. UMD is part of their historical legacy. And Fast Hands applying to magic items fits perfectly with that.

I agree, except that this function doesn't change what magic items the Rogue can use (that is accomplished with the Thief special ability 'Use Magic Device: By 13th level, you ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items,' which is honestly too late to be archetype-defining). What this does is change the action economy of using magic items, which I get why they were gunshy over, even though I don't think would have been too problematic.

[dejarnjc]

I agree, except that this function doesn't change what magic items the Rogue can use (that is accomplished with the Thief special ability 'Use Magic Device: By 13th level, you ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items,' which is honestly too late to be archetype-defining). What this does is change the action economy of using magic items, which I get why they were gunshy over, even though I don't think would have been too problematic.

Agreed. If this ever came up in one of my games I'd probably house rule it to allow it. The thief archetype is underwhelming enough that I think the having the 13th level feature pack a serious punch by letting you use magic items with your bonus action would make the slog up to that level actually worth it. Or if not that, then I'd at least homebrew a bunch of mundane items that scaled better into the game. Ball bearings (DC 10 DEX save), Caltrops (5 ft area, completely avoidable if enemy moves at half speed), and the hunting trap just don't cut it at past level 7 or so.

[stoutstien]

A good way to allow fast hands to work with magic items but you're not wanting them to open the floodgates completely you can only allow the activation of magic items that they have attuned if applicable

[Chronos]

Fast Hands is especially underwhelming when you realize that anything the Thief can do as a bonus action, the Arcane Trickster can also do as a bonus action, but from 30' away. There's still an action cost to cast Mage Hand first, but it's a cantrip: Any time you think there's even a chance that anything interesting might be happening in the next minute, you cast it.

[Samayu]

I don't know about using wands with fast hands. I don't see how having a practiced dexterity should allow you to use a magic stick to cast a spell as a bonus action.

I feel similar about using the Healer's Kit in this way, but it appears the rules support it.

"Here, let me tie this splint onto your leg."
"Wow, that was fast! Thanks, I feel much better!"

[stoutstien]

I don't know about using wands with fast hands. I don't see how having a practiced dexterity should allow you to use a magic stick to cast a spell as a bonus action.

I feel similar about using the Healer's Kit in this way, but it appears the rules support it.

"Here, let me tie this splint onto your leg."
"Wow, that was fast! Thanks, I feel much better!"
Well thief get UMD as a class feature also. That covers wands.

[Samayu]

Well thief get UMD as a class feature also. That covers wands.

Sure, but not as a bonus action due to having fast hands.

[stoutstien]

Sure, but not as a bonus action due to having fast hands.
Yeah but they should stack.
In a more low fantasy setting I could see not allowing fast hands to use med kit or set a bear trap.
I would make it a reaction to use fast hands if I was going to take away those.
Side note- should work with shields if you pick up Prof.

[ad_hoc]

I don't know about using wands with fast hands. I don't see how having a practiced dexterity should allow you to use a magic stick to cast a spell as a bonus action.

I feel similar about using the Healer's Kit in this way, but it appears the rules support it.

"Here, let me tie this splint onto your leg."
"Wow, that was fast! Thanks, I feel much better!"

We're talking about something everyone else can use as an action. Heck, we're talking about something you can attempt as an action even without a healer's kit. You're stabilizing someone which is a common action movie thing.

[Dalebert]

anything on the Adventuring Equipment list however is an item, and does qualify (tool use may also qualify, check with your DM)

my 2 favourites are, BEAR TRAP! and healers kit.

Mine are acid and alchemist fire, but a healer's kit is much better if you took the healer feat. A strict DM may not let you do the big heal as a bonus action but the 1 hp one is still nice.

I think fast hands is competitive with the AT ability. Having to spend an action in order to do it kind of defeats the point and I lost count of how many times I found myself in combat and didn't have mage hand cast for various reasons. Also, doesn't work with acid or alchemist fire because the mage hand can't attack.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

my 2 favourites are, BEAR TRAP! and healers kit.
Huh, I hadn't thought of Bear Trap, I'd been using Caltrops for a similar purpose. I need to go check which one works better.

[ad_hoc]

Mine are acid and alchemist fire, but a healer's kit is much better if you took the healer feat. A strict DM may not let you do the big heal as a bonus action but the 1 hp one is still nice.

I think fast hands is competitive with the AT ability. Having to spend an action in order to do it kind of defeats the point and I lost count of how many times I found myself in combat and didn't have mage hand cast for various reasons. Also, doesn't work with acid or alchemist fire because the mage hand can't attack.

If you mean throwing acid or alchemist's fire then that isn't the 'use an object' action. That is done with the Attack action.

[Tanarii]

If you mean throwing acid or alchemist's fire then that isn't the 'use an object' action. That is done with the Attack action.
That is not correct. It's the Use an Object action, and Fast Hands works with it.
To derail with a circular argument with no end.

[MeeposFire]

The reason I think it's stupid, and certainly should have been in their minds, is we're talking about the Thief here. UMD is part of their historical legacy. And Fast Hands applying to magic items fits perfectly with that.

I remember when the first set of PHB came out and everybody was excited about fast hands and magic items and were talking about it. Then when the DMG came out the designers said they were not intended to work together and the magic items section of the DMG had a special one line saying specifically that magic items use a different action that was not brought up before and the way it was put, at least to me, it felt like it was put in very late in the writing as in to specifically address an issue they did not expect to come up.

To me I think that the "use a magic item action" being a specific thing was not originally there but added to avoid interaction with fast hands late in the design game.


As for house rules I allow it to work together. Most magic items that use an action that have any potency have to be attuned and you still only get 3 total so giving up one for a wand is a potential sacrifice and in many games you have only limited ability to acquire magic items (some games no control) outside of whatever the DM decides to give you. So unlike many potential issue DMs have a lot of control over the situation. So for me I do not think it is a big deal and allowing it to work gives the thief some awesome new and fun abilities.

[stoutstien]

I remember when the first set of PHB came out and everybody was excited about fast hands and magic items and were talking about it. Then when the DMG came out the designers said they were not intended to work together and the magic items section of the DMG had a special one line saying specifically that magic items use a different action that was not brought up before and the way it was put, at least to me, it felt like it was put in very late in the writing as in to specifically address an issue they did not expect to come up.

To me I think that the "use a magic item action" being a specific thing was not originally there but added to avoid interaction with fast hands late in the design game.


As for house rules I allow it to work together. Most magic items that use an action that have any potency have to be attuned and you still only get 3 total so giving up one for a wand is a potential sacrifice and in many games you have only limited ability to acquire magic items (some games no control) outside of whatever the DM decides to give you. So unlike many potential issue DMs have a lot of control over the situation. So for me I do not think it is a big deal and allowing it to work gives the thief some awesome new and fun abilities.
Same. UMD is probably the most DM dependent feature in the game and being a relatively high thief feature most players will never get to see it used.
it is great when a player completely circumvents something with it though.
"Only one pure of heart and a direct descendant from the fireheart clan can I activate this rune...."
Halfling thief....poke*

[ad_hoc]

That is not correct. It's the Use an Object action, and Fast Hands works with it.
To derail with a circular argument with no end.

You're making a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.

[stoutstien]

You're making a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.
Ask your DM is the only correct answer here. Both are specifics that beat general rules but neither one is more specific than the other one.

[ad_hoc]

Ask your DM is the only correct answer here. Both are specifics that beat general rules but neither one is more specific than the other one.

I don't understand.

What specific?

Vial of Acid/Alchemist's Fire is Adventuring Gear that has an option to treat it as an improvised weapon to make a ranged attack.

One thing that people often miss is that you do add your Strength mod to hit and damage. Personally I'm inclined to rule that acid/fire has the finesse property and allow dex to be used, though that isn't the rule.

[stoutstien]

I don't understand.

What specific?

Vial of Acid/Alchemist's Fire is Adventuring Gear that has an option to treat it as an improvised weapon to make a ranged attack.
First line of both- "as an action
.."
So I can be argued it's specifically a separate action. Sort of like you can't use it as part of a extra attack if you gain that feature because it specifies an action.

Fast hands opens up use an object as a bonus action.
Use an object says you can use your action to interact with an object if it says it is required.
The fact that you can use the ball bearings because it's a save but not acid because it's a improvised attack is just unnecessary restrictions in some people's opinion.
Like I said, ask the DM.
Edit- on the topic of adding to hit/damage.
You have to be proficient in improvised weapons or have tavern brawler in other words to add Dex to attack rolls. (It's an improvised RANGED attack so dex)
And adding Dex to damage is also ask your DM lol. Because they're on the adventure gear list and not the weapon table. Sort of like using the Torch to burn some one says 1 fire damage.

[Tanarii]

Ask your DM is the only correct answer here. Indeed.

I know my answer as a DM. But if I was considering playing a Thief in another's campaign it'd be near the top of my 'how do you rule ...?' questions. After finding out how stealth works in their game.

[ad_hoc]

First line of both- "as an action
.."
So I can be argued it's specifically a separate action. Sort of like you can't use it as part of a extra attack if you gain that feature because it specifies an action.

Fast hands opens up use an object as a bonus action.
Use an object says you can use your action to interact with an object if it says it is required.
The fact that you can use the ball bearings because it's a save but not acid because it's a improvised attack is just unnecessary restrictions in some people's opinion.
Like I said, ask the DM.

Why can't you use extra attack? You're making an attack as defined under 'making an attack' which falls under the 'attack action'

It's an improvised weapon with special range and damage. It still uses the rules for thrown improvised weapons. So no proficiency but str mod to hit/dmg.

[stoutstien]

Why can't you use extra attack? You're making an attack as defined under 'making an attack' which falls under the 'attack action'

It's an improvised weapon with special range and damage. It still uses the rules for thrown improvised weapons. So no proficiency but str mod to hit/dmg.
And now you see why ask DM is best answer.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/956666040783552512?lang=en
Sages all mighty toughts on as far as how the attack is rolled

Can't find the one about extra attack.
I disregard alot of sage advice but ask the DM

[ad_hoc]

And now you see why ask DM is best answer.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/956666040783552512?lang=en
Sages all mighty toughts on as far as how the attack is rolled

Can't find the one about extra attack.
I disregard alot of sage advice but ask the DM

Like I said, I would be fine with using Dex instead of Str