Monster Pantheon

[D.One]

Been thinking for a while. Let's say the Snarl crisis is averted (which I think will happen by the end of the story).

There are a few gods and demigods in the Northern Pantheon that are linked not to an abstract concept, but to a kind of creature, like Surtur or Thrinn, much like TDO is linked to the goblinoids.

What if, after all the crisis, having TDO accepted as a Pantheon of his own, this "monster gods" decided to ally with him and form a new family, some kind of Monster Pantheon? Would it be possible for their quiddities slowly change over the millennia, becoming purple?

[woweedd]

Been thinking for a while. Let's say the Snarl crisis is averted (which I think will happen by the end of the story).

There are a few gods and demigods in the Northern Pantheon that are linked not to an abstract concept, but to a kind of creature, like Surtur or Thrinn, much like TDO is linked to the goblinoids.

What if, after all the crisis, having TDO accepted as a Pantheon of his own, this "monster gods" decided to ally with him and form a new family, some kind of Monster Pantheon? Would it be possible for their quiddities slowly change over the millennia, becoming purple?
I doubt it. They’re shaped by belief, and, not only are they closely linked to the Northerners, but their quiddity could only change if their followers believed it to have changed. Most likely, all that would happen would be...At best, nothing. At worst, the belief in The Northerners could overwhelm The Dark One, making him turn yellow, this defeating the point.

[Emanick]

I somewhat doubt that quiddity is one of the things that can be changed by mortal belief - it seems to be an inherent physical property with some fundamental "realness" to it. However, it's possible that this is wrong.

[woweedd]

I somewhat doubt that quiddity is one of the things that can be changed by mortal belief - it seems to be an inherent physical property with some fundamental "realness" to it. However, it's possible that this is wrong.
I mean, it’s probably influenced by belief. That’s why The Dark One is Purple, whereas other ascended Gods like Davlin and Surter aren’t. Their worshippers though of them as additions to the Gods they already worshipped, not Pantheons in their own right. Whether it can be changed...

[hroþila]

I'm not sure something as essential as quiddity is subject to change based on belief. If it was, the gods could have tried spreading different beliefs among mortals (the way Thor did with the bet) in order to engineer the rise of a new quiddity.

Which maybe they did try, but we haven't heard of it.

[NoHaxJustPi]

I mean, it’s probably influenced by belief. That’s why The Dark One is Purple, whereas other ascended Gods like Davlin and Surter aren’t. Their worshippers though of them as additions to the Gods they already worshipped, not Pantheons in their own right. Whether it can be changed...

The worshippers of the creature-related gods were, presumably, worshippers of the pantheon those gods now belong to. It could also be that the gods “empowered” them to ascend to godhood easier, without an incredibly dedicated effort like TDO took. (an incredibly dedicated effort like the slaughter of a million of those who oppose them) Evidence for this: “He did it completely on his own, unlike other mortal ascensions”

[Rrmcklin]

I also find myself thinking that quiddity isn't a property that can be changed simply by belief, it seems much more intrinsic than that.

[Peelee]

Thor describes quiddity as his essence. I'd say that's an immutable property, and if it was easily or readily changeable, they'd have done so well before the several-billionth world.

[woweedd]

Thor describes quiddity as his essence. I'd say that's an immutable property, and if it was easily or readily changeable, they'd have done so well before the several-billionth world.
Again, i'd say it's more that it's chosen by mortal belief, but can't be changed afterwards.

[Peelee]

Again, i'd say it's more that it's chosen by mortal belief, but can't be changed afterwards.

We know it's never happened before in billions of worlds, and Thor seems unsure if it will ever happen again. I would very much call into question that simple belief could do that. If say it was a unique set of circumstances, chief among them being a race abandoned by the gods and a being among them that managed to rise to godhood.

The Dark One is the millionth monkey at the millionth typewriter. The chances of it happening once are astronomical. The chances of it happening again? Even moreso.

[Caerulea]

We know it's never happened before in billions of worlds, and Thor seems unsure if it will ever happen again. I would very much call into question that simple belief could do that. If say it was a unique set of circumstances, chief among them being a race abandoned by the gods and a being among them that managed to rise to godhood.

The Dark One is the millionth monkey at the millionth typewriter. The chances of it happening once are astronomical. The chances of it happening again? Even moreso.
Well, not really. It already happened, the chance of it happening is pretty much the same. If I flip a coin, and it lands heads, the chance the I will get a second heads is 50% (if it's a fair coin) even though the chance of getting two heads in a row is 25%. Maybe even more, as the gods can look at the situation that caused it, and try to engineer that again.

—Caerulea

[RatElemental]

As far as the original question goes, though, now that the dark one exists he can sponsor new up and coming gods and create his own little pantheon of misfits if he sees fit to.

[Peelee]

Well, not really. It already happened, the chance of it happening is pretty much the same. If I flip a coin, and it lands heads, the chance the I will get a second heads is 50% (if it's a fair coin) even though the chance of getting two heads in a row is 25%. Maybe even more, as the gods can look at the situation that caused it, and try to engineer that again.

—Caerulea

Yeah, bit this coin has potentially billions of sides. Even assuming a fair coin, it could be the next world, or it could be several billion more worlds down the line. Given the gods' relative success at elongating each world's duration, (and assuming mortal solutions like Gates crop up every so often), it could be significantly longer than the first time.

[Caerulea]

Yeah, bit this coin has potentially billions of sides. Even assuming a fair coin, it could be the next world, or it could be several billion more worlds down the line. Given the gods' relative success at elongating each world's duration, (and assuming mortal solutions like Gates crop up every so often), it could be significantly longer than the first time.
Yes.

—Caerulea

[Rrmcklin]

The gods have no idea why the Dark One is a different color in the first place. They can't (intentionally) replicate something they don't understand.

We saw that some of the are just wiling to wait for another violet quiddity god (or maybe even another color) now that they know it's possible, but that says nothing about how long it would actually take.

[Caerulea]

The gods have no idea why the Dark One is a different color in the first place. They can't (intentionally) replicate something they don't understand.

We saw that some of the are just wiling to wait for another violet quiddity god (or maybe even another color) now that they know it's possible, but that says nothing about how long it would actually take.
It would take a long time, but now that they have definitive proof it is possible, they can experiment and try to replicate it. Assuming, they agree, which is not a given.

—Caerulea

[Rrmcklin]

It would take a long time, but now that they have definitive proof it is possible, they can experiment and try to replicate it. Assuming, they agree, which is not a given.

—Caerulea

They can do random things and hope it works, which is not actually much different from what they've been doing. They have nothing to start an experiment from.

Just going, "they can try something" is meaningless by itself.

[Caerulea]

They can do random things and hope it works, which is not actually much different from what they've been doing. They have nothing to start an experiment from.

Just going, "they can try something" is meaningless by itself.
They have at least one positive result, the current world. They could experiment by trying things that occurred in the current world, trying to replicate it as closely as possible. Not quite random.

—Caerulea

[Fyraltari]

Well, not really. It already happened, the chance of it happening is pretty much the same. If I flip a coin, and it lands heads, the chance the I will get a second heads is 50% (if it's a fair coin) even though the chance of getting two heads in a row is 25%. Maybe even more, as the gods can look at the situation that caused it, and try to engineer that again.

—Caerulea

This assumes that quiddity formations are random independent events, which th gods have no way of knowing.

If it turns out that both A) There are only five potential quiddities ever, period and B) Once a quiddity is tapped into it is "locked" and can only be accessed again via "sponsorship" (whatever that means) of a god of the same quiddity existing then losing the Dark One would mean that the gods are truly screwed.

EDIT: Simply assuming that purple quiddity will eventually turn up again, like maybe-Sunna does is in itself a huge gamble.

[woweedd]

We know it's never happened before in billions of worlds, and Thor seems unsure if it will ever happen again. I would very much call into question that simple belief could do that. If say it was a unique set of circumstances, chief among them being a race abandoned by the gods and a being among them that managed to rise to godhood.

The Dark One is the millionth monkey at the millionth typewriter. The chances of it happening once are astronomical. The chances of it happening again? Even moreso.
That's kind what I assumed. Tha to get a new quiddity, you need a god arising from a race that does not worship any of the pre-existing pantheons. I also like this because, as Rich seems to like, it creates a sort of odd irony in the Gods. They snatch up any worship they can find, and, in all the world until now, they did: they got worshippers snapped it up so quickly that, ironically, it meant there was no non-them worshipping race for a other-QUiddity God to emerge form. Their competition for worshippers was, up until now, their undoing, by making it so that there was a sapient race that didn't alrealdy worship them.

[Caerulea]

This assumes that quiddity formations are random independent events, which th gods have no way of knowing.
Yes.

—Caerulea

[Son of A Lich!]

I'd like to point out that, while we know The Dark One is an important phenomenon due to his unique color and rising without patronage of an existing Pantheon - He can't be unique. When asked about having The Dark One help seal the Snarl, other gods said they'd rather wait for a more palatable god. That implies that there have been other gods with unique quiddities before, and we even know exactly what happens when they have arisen.

They are preyed upon by other gods.

Thor was ready to kill the Dark One until Loki jumped in to save him, and he implies that minor deities rise up all the time. And the reason why good gods haven't risen is because, as per Odin, There are more evil gods then good ones.

So, really, the challenge for a unique Quiddity is allowing a god to form without patronage of the existing Pantheons (I would assume they can't deliberately create a circumstance to make a god) and keeping it safe from the other gods. This is a lot easier for an evil god to pull off (The Dark One was being protected by all 3 pantheons and it seems like the Evil gods of those pantheons).

Now, the real question is Scale. "All the Time" to a human is every day or so. What is "All the Time" to a being that exists outside of Time as we know it? Does every world have unique Quiddities? We don't know. It could be that only 1 in a trillion worlds has a successful Ascension into true godhood, but Thor's been around the block enough times to know that's a drop in the bucket for as long as they've been around.

That having been said, I doubt that there will be a Monster Pantheon. Just wanted to point out that the unique Quiddity thing is not a one-off event.

[Caerulea]

I'd like to point out that, while we know The Dark One is an important phenomenon due to his unique color and rising without patronage of an existing Pantheon - He can't be unique. When asked about having The Dark One help seal the Snarl, other gods said they'd rather wait for a more palatable god. That implies that there have been other gods with unique quiddities before, and we even know exactly what happens when they have arisen.

They are preyed upon by other gods.

Thor was ready to kill the Dark One until Loki jumped in to save him, and he implies that minor deities rise up all the time. And the reason why good gods haven't risen is because, as per Odin, There are more evil gods then good ones.

So, really, the challenge for a unique Quiddity is allowing a god to form without patronage of the existing Pantheons (I would assume they can't deliberately create a circumstance to make a god) and keeping it safe from the other gods. This is a lot easier for an evil god to pull off (The Dark One was being protected by all 3 pantheons and it seems like the Evil gods of those pantheons).

Now, the real question is Scale. "All the Time" to a human is every day or so. What is "All the Time" to a being that exists outside of Time as we know it? Does every world have unique Quiddities? We don't know. It could be that only 1 in a trillion worlds has a successful Ascension into true godhood, but Thor's been around the block enough times to know that's a drop in the bucket for as long as they've been around.

That having been said, I doubt that there will be a Monster Pantheon. Just wanted to point out that the unique Quiddity thing is not a one-off event.
Actually, it is. I'm pretty sure that the other gods, with evidence that new quiddities are possible having come to light, would rather gamble that it would happen again. And given forever, it probably would. That does not mean that it happened before. Minor gods rose up, but those were part of the existing pantheons, and shared their quiddity. This one world is different from all the rest because of the new quiddity.

—Caerulea

[Kish]

Indeed. The Dark One is the precedent that proves it's possible; there is no implied pre-him precedent that made him not a surprise.

[RatElemental]

I'd like to point out that, while we know The Dark One is an important phenomenon due to his unique color and rising without patronage of an existing Pantheon - He can't be unique. When asked about having The Dark One help seal the Snarl, other gods said they'd rather wait for a more palatable god. That implies that there have been other gods with unique quiddities before, and we even know exactly what happens when they have arisen.

They are preyed upon by other gods.

Thor was ready to kill the Dark One until Loki jumped in to save him, and he implies that minor deities rise up all the time. And the reason why good gods haven't risen is because, as per Odin, There are more evil gods then good ones.

So, really, the challenge for a unique Quiddity is allowing a god to form without patronage of the existing Pantheons (I would assume they can't deliberately create a circumstance to make a god) and keeping it safe from the other gods. This is a lot easier for an evil god to pull off (The Dark One was being protected by all 3 pantheons and it seems like the Evil gods of those pantheons).

Now, the real question is Scale. "All the Time" to a human is every day or so. What is "All the Time" to a being that exists outside of Time as we know it? Does every world have unique Quiddities? We don't know. It could be that only 1 in a trillion worlds has a successful Ascension into true godhood, but Thor's been around the block enough times to know that's a drop in the bucket for as long as they've been around.

That having been said, I doubt that there will be a Monster Pantheon. Just wanted to point out that the unique Quiddity thing is not a one-off event.

You make a lot of assumptions here, all of which are not supported by the comic and many of which outright contradicted by it.

This time something's different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html)

Unlike other mortal ascensions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)

Now that we know [new quiddity] is possible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

Once in an eternity opportunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html)

[Peelee]

I'd like to point out that, while we know The Dark One is an important phenomenon due to his unique color and rising without patronage of an existing Pantheon - He can't be unique. When asked about having The Dark One help seal the Snarl, other gods said they'd rather wait for a more palatable god.

Only one god said that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). Also, gods can make poor gambles.