Sorcadin: Hexblade level or not? Does shadowblade negate a hex dip?

[EndEver]

I want to be a spellcaster heavy Gish for my next campaign.

I really love the idea of a Sorcadin or a Sorlockadin, problem is we are starting at level 3 but all the published books are allowed for this campaign SCAG, Xanthars, ect.

With Shadowblade spell on my Sorcadin, does it make a hexblade dip obsolete? My initial split is Pal 2, Sorc 18

But I could also go Pal 2, Hex 1, Sorc 17 or Hex 2, Hex 3, Hex 5, Hex 9. There are so many combos actually viable that I can’t seem to pick a good one for a long campaign... any thoughts?

I just want to do good damage especially levels 4-14, have nice spells, good utility. We have a Paladin in the party and a Druid so far.

Anyone have experience with Sorcadins or Sorlockadins?

[Man_Over_Game]

It kinda depends on how your DM runs your campaign as to which strategy works best.

The benefit of the Warlock is that it grants a lot of sustainability over the course of a day, but this means nothing if your table only fits in 0-1 short rests a day. It also helps deal with boss fights, but doesn't do much to help with swarms of enemies. Lastly, it mostly synergizes with use of Eldritch Blast and Quicken Spell, and that's not going to help if you don't ever need to make ranged attacks.

So, total, go Warlock if:

Your DM uses Short Rests
You have to be more versatile and occasionally use Ranged attacks
Your DM often has singular boss fights

[EndEver]

It kinda depends on how your DM runs your campaign as to which strategy works best.

The benefit of the Warlock is that it grants a lot of sustainability over the course of a day, but this means nothing if your table only fits in 0-1 short rests a day. It also helps deal with boss fights, but doesn't do much to help with swarms of enemies. Lastly, it mostly synergizes with use of Eldritch Blast and Quicken Spell, and that's not going to help if you don't ever need to make ranged attacks.

So, total, go Warlock if:

Your DM uses Short Rests
You have to be more versatile and occasionally use Ranged attacks
Your DM often has singular boss fights



My DM mostly leaves what rests we want up to us. So we can do short rests but then he’ll roll to see if another encounter happens while we rest.

We usually have bigger group fights and range can be really nice to have since he throws creatures at us that melt armour and grapple.

Will it set me back to far just to take 1 Hex dip? Going Pal 2 first, Hex 1, then Sorc +?

[Snowbluff]

Shadowblade isn't as good without extra attack. Usually better to use Spirit Guardians. Then hexblade dip becomes good.

Also, hexblade frees up the spells knowledge of Shield and maybe some other spells. Higher level sorc levels don't give as many spells known, IIRC.

[EndEver]

Shadowblade isn't as good without extra attack. Usually better to use Spirit Guardians. Then hexblade dip becomes good.

Also, hexblade frees up the spells knowledge of Shield and maybe some other spells. Higher level sorc levels don't give as many spells known, IIRC.

I don’t think I have access to Spirit Guardians. Says it’s a Cleric spell or Paladin (Crown) spell. The versitility with other spells is appealing though. Just concerned I’d fall behind for a few levels

My thought on shadowblade was how it scales up to 4d8’s at 5th level slot plus booming blade or green-Flame blade as a way to even out with no extra attack. Only problem is concentration so no Hold Person Shadowblade crit

[Ganymede]

I don't get how the existence of a spell would somehow erase a character arc involving a deal with an eldritch being.

[EndEver]

I don't get how the existence of a spell would somehow erase a character arc involving a deal with an eldritch being.

Well the Hex dip is essentialy to make it so I can use Charisma on my weapon attacks so I don’t need to alter my attributes much. But Shadowblade is stronger than any single weapon ( excluding magic ones or a bunch of feats). But if I use Shadowblade, hexblade can’t alter the stat to charisma.

But I do love the role-play of a sorloackadin with the different Oaths and pacts I have to maintain. Still considering it for Eldritch Blast and a short rest slot

[Pex]

Cynically speaking, the only reason to dip Hexblade is to use Charisma as your combat ability score. It saves you having to spend ASI on Strength allowing you to take a feat or two while increasing Charisma to the eventual 20. The Hexblade Curse is the sundae cherry. Some people will only dip Hexblade and not Sorcerer at all for this as well as the usual warlock benefits of Agonizing Eldritch Blast, a second Invocation they really want, and two short rest recharge spell slots for smiting. Hexblade allows for Shield spell which is nice.

If you're willing and able to pump Strength as well as Charisma which has always been possible since before Hexblade existed, not that there's anything wrong with not wanting to, then you don't need Hexblade. Sorcerer gives you a decent range attack Cantrip on its own plus Shield and Absorb Elements which any Paladin would love as well as the other Sorcadin benefits.

Some people don't multiclass at all staying single class Paladin and are quite happy with it.

There is no perfect answer. It's a matter of your personal taste and mood of playing the character. Sometimes you feel like multiclassing, sometimes you don't.

[Willie the Duck]

I don’t think I have access to Spirit Guardians. Says it’s a Cleric spell or Paladin (Crown) spell. The versitility with other spells is appealing though. Just concerned I’d fall behind for a few levels

Divine Soul Sorcerer has access to it. It's good. Fewer ways to impose disadvantage on enemy saves as get advantage on your own attacks (Shadow Blade's forte), but a good damage type, many times good save type, ability to hit multiple opponents, and unlike most AoE, built-in way to exclude (known) allies. Not good enough to change your archetype selection by itself, but favorable.


My thought on shadowblade was how it scales up to 4d8’s at 5th level slot plus booming blade or green-Flame blade as a way to even out with no extra attack. Only problem is concentration so no Hold Person Shadowblade crit

A 5th level spell slot to up your base damage (before GFB is added) to 4d8 is probably not worth the spell slot used and the concentration. It is +3d8 per round (contingent on hitting, yes often with advantage). The aforementioned Spirit Guardians using the same slot would be +5d8 per round (Wis. save for half), times number of opponents in AOE. If you had extra attack and you were boosting two 1d8 attacks to 4d8 (so +6d8 per round), it would be a more beneficial spell to use.


Some people don't multiclass at all staying single class Paladin and are quite happy with it.

There is no perfect answer. It's a matter of your personal taste and mood of playing the character. Sometimes you feel like multiclassing, sometimes you don't.

Very much this. Particularly if you intend to play up to the upper teens in level, as multiclassing in general seems to sweet spot in the 6-14 range, and afterwards you start missing some nice capstones and the like.

For all the (very real) synergy that the Cha-based classes have, it often seems like a heck of a lot of hoops jumped through and a lot of time spent leveling up waiting for XYZ to come together. I feel like there is actual power there for those that want to spend the effort, but 50%+ of the time, it feels like the people playing single class ___ ends up having more fun at the gaming table.

[EndEver]

Divine Soul Sorcerer has access to it. It's good. Fewer ways to impose disadvantage on enemy saves as get advantage on your own attacks (Shadow Blade's forte), but a good damage type, many times good save type, ability to hit multiple opponents, and unlike most AoE, built-in way to exclude (known) allies. Not good enough to change your archetype selection by itself, but favorable.



A 5th level spell slot to up your base damage (before GFB is added) to 4d8 is probably not worth the spell slot used and the concentration. It is +3d8 per round (contingent on hitting, yes often with advantage). The aforementioned Spirit Guardians using the same slot would be +5d8 per round (Wis. save for half), times number of opponents in AOE. If you had extra attack and you were boosting two 1d8 attacks to 4d8 (so +6d8 per round), it would be a more beneficial spell to use.



Very much this. Particularly if you intend to play up to the upper teens in level, as multiclassing in general seems to sweet spot in the 6-14 range, and afterwards you start missing some nice capstones and the like.

For all the (very real) synergy that the Cha-based classes have, it often seems like a heck of a lot of hoops jumped through and a lot of time spent leveling up waiting for XYZ to come together. I feel like there is actual power there for those that want to spend the effort, but 50%+ of the time, it feels like the people playing single class ___ ends up having more fun at the gaming table.

Just looked into Divine Soul Sorcerer, it does seem appealing. Thanks for pointing all this out.

I got pretty bored with my first single class (monk), really enjoyed Druid though. Main thing I realized was I want to be able to cast spells and swing a sword well, in addition to having decent surviability and great cantrip utility for solving problems. That’s why I like the Sorcadin a lot and throwing the hexblade wrench into my character makes the role playing a lot more interesting for me.

Mostly just want it to be useable enough to have fun but it doesn’t have to carry the DPS.

[Alucard89]

Ok, hear me out. It's too early for you to decide on Hexblade dip. You have to realize one thing: you can AWLAYS dip Hexblade. It doesn't change at all how you will level up Sorcadin.

I will break it down to you:

1. If you want to use Shadow Blade to be able to- you need extra attack to make it worth. So you will be 6/14 Sorcadin at best. That measn you will either go straight 6 Paladin and start Sorc, or go 1 Paladin/1 Sorc/5 Paladin or 2 Paladin/4 Sorc and 4 Paladin. Anyway the goal is to get Paladin 6/4 Sorc at minimum, thought Paladin 6/5 Sorc is really where Sorcadin starts to bloom.

2. Your leveling looks the same anyway. If you start with Vuman go RES (CON), +2 CHA, War Caster. On level 10 you have 18 CHA, RES (CON) and War Caster. If your DM allows- start with War Caster (many do), then +2 CHA and +2 CHA. With Half Elf you will go first Elven Accuracy and then War Caster for 18 CHA and War Caster. It's the same.

If you go 6/14 with Sword n Board you want 20 CHA anyway- it's +5 Aura, spells DC etc. You will level up Charisma first anyway.

3. So- there is no space for you imo to dip Hexblade before you will be imo at least Paladin 6/4 or 5 Sorcerer. With 16 STR you will be perfectly capable of hitting targets up to level 10 and 11. You should decide if you want to dip Hexblade or not after that levels.

4. Another reason is: Strengh boosting items. Items like Ogre gloves (19 STR) or Hill Giant Belt (21 STR) are quite common at most tables. It's perfectly possible you will get one of those before level 11, therefore it will remove needing for Hexblade dip. There super high chance that if you got Ogre gloves, you will later in game have chance for Giant Belts.

5. Shadow Blade while strong- it's not super strong option for every fight. Truth to be told- it's only good in Boss Fights as vs group of enemies you will always be better with: Spirit Guardians upcasted, Hypnotic Pattern, Mass Suggestion, Twinned Haste, Holy Weapon (it lasts hour vs 1 min Shadow Blade and can be twinned).

You will mostly use Shadow Blade from level 5th slot for 4d8. Using 7th slot for 5d8 is not really optimal, you have some mean ways of using 7th level spells or slots.

However if you get a moderately enchanted longsword/rapier/whatever that adds 2d6 or 1d8 damage of some kind - you will be better most of the time with Holy Weapon, making your weapon for 1 hour 1d8 + 1d8/2d6 + 2d8, making weapon 3d8 + 2d6 or 4d8 total for 1 hour vs 1 minute. Also that weapon will probably be +1/+2 or maybe even +3. And Accuracy believe it or not - increase damage too. As miss = no damage.

Shadow Blade is great spell, but it's almost 100% time a Boss spell (even then I don't know if I wouldn't prefer haste with good enchanted weapon or 5th level Spirit Guardians) and it lasts 1 min which means you won't be able to use on every encounter.

To Summary:

Get your Sorcadin first to 6/5 or 6/4 levels. Level up CHA, get War Caster. Then see what magic items/weapons you got and if it's still worth to dip 1 Hexblade. Because at this time 1 level dip may benfit you more as you will already have max 20 CHA or 18 CHA and 3rd level Sorcerer spells and a lot of slots for smites.

However if you get STR boosting magic item- it's better to get 7th level spells and 9th level slot than just a Curse in this situation.

[Willie the Duck]

Main thing I realized was I want to be able to cast spells and swing a sword well, in addition to having decent surviability and great cantrip utility for solving problems. That’s why I like the Sorcadin a lot and throwing the hexblade wrench into my character makes the role playing a lot more interesting for me.
Mostly just want it to be useable enough to have fun but it doesn’t have to carry the DPS.

Okay. If you want utility, than boy howdy, dip all the Cha-based classes you want to throw on board. I might even suggest instead Celestial Tomelock 3 and a 1-level bard dip, to pick up Booming Blade, Dancing Lights, Eldritch Blast, Green Flame Blade, Guidance, Light, Mending, Message, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Prestidigitation, Sacred Flame, and Thorn Whip, along with ritual spells from all classes(:smallbiggrin:).

You are correct, multiclassing can greatly expand adaptability at the usual expense of power. If you can figure a way to fluff it, such a multitasker can be quite fun to play.

[EndEver]

Ok, hear me out. It's too early for you to decide on Hexblade dip. You have to realize one thing: you can AWLAYS dip Hexblade. It doesn't change at all how you will level up Sorcadin.

I will break it down to you:

1. If you want to use Shadow Blade to be able to- you need extra attack to make it worth. So you will be 6/14 Sorcadin at best. That measn you will either go straight 6 Paladin and start Sorc, or go 1 Paladin/1 Sorc/5 Paladin or 2 Paladin/4 Sorc and 4 Paladin. Anyway the goal is to get Paladin 6/4 Sorc at minimum, thought Paladin 6/5 Sorc is really where Sorcadin starts to bloom.

2. Your leveling looks the same anyway. If you start with Vuman go RES (CON), +2 CHA, War Caster. On level 10 you have 18 CHA, RES (CON) and War Caster. If your DM allows- start with War Caster (many do), then +2 CHA and +2 CHA. With Half Elf you will go first Elven Accuracy and then War Caster for 18 CHA and War Caster. It's the same.

If you go 6/14 with Sword n Board you want 20 CHA anyway- it's +5 Aura, spells DC etc. You will level up Charisma first anyway.

To Summary:

Get your Sorcadin first to 6/5 or 6/4 levels. Level up CHA, get War Caster. Then see what magic items/weapons you got and if it's still worth to dip 1 Hexblade. Because at this time 1 level dip may benfit you more as you will already have max 20 CHA or 18 CHA and 3rd level Sorcerer spells and a lot of slots for smites.

However if you get STR boosting magic item- it's better to get 7th level spells and 9th level slot than just a Curse in this situation.

Thanks for breaking it down. We usually have group fights so maybe Shadowblade isn’t the right call then.

We already have a full Paladin in the party so I wanted to be Pal 2/Sorc 18 and be more caster heavy. Either way I can look into hexblade later though as you suggested. Not sure if this changes things but we rolled out stats and I got 15, 14, 15, 9, 12, 17.

I’m torn between half elf and V. Human for sure

[EndEver]

Okay. If you want utility, than boy howdy, dip all the Cha-based classes you want to throw on board. I might even suggest instead Celestial Tomelock 3 and a 1-level bard dip, to pick up Booming Blade, Dancing Lights, Eldritch Blast, Green Flame Blade, Guidance, Light, Mending, Message, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Prestidigitation, Sacred Flame, and Thorn Whip, along with ritual spells from all classes(:smallbiggrin:).

You are correct, multiclassing can greatly expand adaptability at the usual expense of power. If you can figure a way to fluff it, such a multitasker can be quite fun to play.

So just slap together whatever weird Charsima sandwich I want? Honestly I strongly debated a Sorlock if I could figure out survivablity.

With the class combo you suggested above, does ritual casting really do that much crazy stuff? I still don’t really understand it after just a Druid one-shot

[Willie the Duck]

So just slap together whatever weird Charsima sandwich I want?

Why not? If breadth is your goal, go big (wide) or go home.


With the class combo you suggested above, does ritual casting really do that much crazy stuff? I still don’t really understand it after just a Druid one-shot

Well, if just getting up to 3rd level (to grab tomelock in the first place), you would only get (access to) Alarm, Animal Messenger, Augury, Beast Sense, Comprehend languages, Detect magic, Detect poison and disease, Find Familiar, Gentle Repose, Identify, Illusory script, Locate Animals or Plants, Magic Mouth, Purify food and drink, Silence (great spell, but not with a 10 min. cast), Speak with animals, Tenser's floating disk, and Unseen servant (plus perhaps some stuff from XGtE), so it wouldn't be mind-blowing. Tomelock gives you access to cantrips you otherwise couldn't get, which is why I suggested it. Low-level ritual spells would just be icing on the adaptability cake.

[Rukelnikov]

So just slap together whatever weird Charsima sandwich I want? Honestly I strongly debated a Sorlock if I could figure out survivablity.

I played a Sorlock (storm/GOO, EB spammer) and didn't have much survivability problems. If you plan to go melee and your lock part is Hexblade, you shouldn't have any problem at all.

[Keravath]

...
2. Your leveling looks the same anyway. If you start with Vuman go RES (CON), +2 CHA, War Caster. On level 10 you have 18 CHA, RES (CON) and War Caster. If your DM allows- start with War Caster (many do), then +2 CHA and +2 CHA. With Half Elf you will go first Elven Accuracy and then War Caster for 18 CHA and War Caster. It's the same.
...


Just a comment but in general Elven Accuracy doesn't make sense for this type of build since it doesn't apply to strength attacks.

"Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once."

So it isn't effective for a primarily strength based melee character ... though it would help cantrips and spells with attack rolls but those aren't the focus of this type of build.

[Alucard89]

Just a comment but in general Elven Accuracy doesn't make sense for this type of build since it doesn't apply to strength attacks.

"Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once."

So it isn't effective for a primarily strength based melee character ... though it would help cantrips and spells with attack rolls but those aren't the focus of this type of build.

Yeah, well, I assumed it's obvious to go DEX build with Elven Accuracy. But you are right, I should have been more precise.

[EndEver]

I played a Sorlock (storm/GOO, EB spammer) and didn't have much survivability problems. If you plan to go melee and your lock part is Hexblade, you shouldn't have any problem at all.

Okay cool. Good to know. What was your spit in levels? 10/10?

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Not as much a caster focus but here's the character I'm playing currently. Mind I wanted to do something semi tanky that could be a Jack of All Trades.

1/2 Elf Devotion Paladin 6/Hexblade Blade-lock 3/Lore Bard 3 (Planning to stick Bard for rest of progression)
Str: 14, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 18 (Point Buy, one ASI to Dexterity, 1/2 Elf to Con and Str)

Combat wise I still have good HP, AC and two attacks per action, Cha to all my Saves and my allies' saves

Spellwise I slots up to 3rd level (4/5/2), 1st and 2nd level Paladin and Bard Spells (10 Paly Prepped/6 Bard Known/4 Lock known). 2 2nd level slots refresh on short rest. 4 Cantrips including Eldritch Blast for range.

And I am SAD in a major way as my Cha goes to attack, damage, all saves.

Skill wise thanks to the Lore Bard and 1/2 Elf I end up with 10 skills and still get a boost to all the others.

It's let me be a field healer, a tank and fill in whatever gaps my party needs as necessary. I'm not quite as powerful in any one field as my party members, but I'm almost never unable to handle things.

[Rukelnikov]

Okay cool. Good to know. What was your spit in levels? 10/10?

Never got to 20, ended Sorc9/Lock7, it wasn't optimized by any standard, took most of my spells fluff wise. I was an Air Genasi, so from my Sorc knowns, I took things related to that (not a single fire spell, curse you Efreeti!), and from Lock I went mostly with mindscrewing stuff, but still took AoA(and used it A LOT) and Shadow of Moil.

Regardin the survivability, for the most part my strat was veeeery simple, Expeditious retreat, stay as far away from combat as possible and shot shot shot, if enemies choose to chase me, i'll kite, many times still being able to shoot. I used that concentration for the longest time in combat, yf you are being shot or the enemy is really freaking fast, you can still rely on Shield, and I've never shyed away from quickening Blade Ward if necesary. Eventually I changed to Shadow of Moil though, but by that time I was already able to afford quickening Mirror Images to compensate, and had access to Tomb of Levistus.

Disclaimer: I was not a coffee Lock, but I did use unspent Lock slots to "refill" already spent Sorc slots before a SR, never went above my limit (I know the feature allows for that, but its too cheesy for me, the refilling didn't seem abusive at all, and helped me not lag too far behind the party's full cleric in term of spells)

[EndEver]

Not as much a caster focus but here's the character I'm playing currently. Mind I wanted to do something semi tanky that could be a Jack of All Trades.

1/2 Elf Devotion Paladin 6/Hexblade Blade-lock 3/Lore Bard 3 (Planning to stick Bard for rest of progression)
Str: 14, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 18 (Point Buy, one ASI to Dexterity, 1/2 Elf to Con and Str)

Combat wise I still have good HP, AC and two attacks per action, Cha to all my Saves and my allies' saves

Spellwise I slots up to 3rd level (4/5/2), 1st and 2nd level Paladin and Bard Spells (10 Paly Prepped/6 Bard Known/4 Lock known). 2 2nd level slots refresh on short rest. 4 Cantrips including Eldritch Blast for range.

And I am SAD in a major way as my Cha goes to attack, damage, all saves.

Skill wise thanks to the Lore Bard and 1/2 Elf I end up with 10 skills and still get a boost to all the others.

It's let me be a field healer, a tank and fill in whatever gaps my party needs as necessary. I'm not quite as powerful in any one field as my party members, but I'm almost never unable to handle things.

Oh that’s a cool build. I’m definitely considering a divine soul sorcerer now for some good healing. Then I can be a bit more versatile

[Alucard89]

Okay cool. Good to know. What was your spit in levels? 10/10?

If you want to go Sorlock, go 3/17.

here is great guide for Sorlock: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?596310-GUIDE-The-Sorlock-%96-Guide-to-the-tormented-divine-soul-with-Xanathar-s-Divine-Soul(17)-Hexblade(3)

Don't go more than 3 levels in Warlock. Not worth it

[EndEver]

If you want to go Sorlock, go 3/17.

here is great guide for Sorlock: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?596310-GUIDE-The-Sorlock-%96-Guide-to-the-tormented-divine-soul-with-Xanathar-s-Divine-Soul(17)-Hexblade(3)

Don't go more than 3 levels in Warlock. Not worth it

Ohh thanks, I’ll look at it right now!

[Alucard89]

Ohh thanks, I’ll look at it right now!

Np :). And you don't have to go Half-Elf as shown here. For casters Elven Accuracy (even for EB) is not that consistent or good. You can easy go Variant Human and grab some great feat instead. Just so you know.

But if you rolled 17 in CHA, it just asks for +2 from Half-Elf and Elven accuracy for 20 CHA on level 4.

[Damon_Tor]

If you want to use Shadow Blade to be able to- you need extra attack to make it worth.

I disagree: a pure sorcerer is entirely capable of using twinned/quickened metamagic to perform multiple attacks per turn via Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade. That's not to say multiclassing isn't optimal for a gish, because of course it is, but I object to the use of the word "need" in this context.


Thanks for breaking it down. We usually have group fights so maybe Shadowblade isn’t the right call then.

I had a lot of fun playing a full sorcerer gish for a while, and he used Shadow Blade as his main weapon. He was a Dragon Soul (Fire) Eladrin and used Greenflame Blade for most things. Elven Accuracy (And 18 Dex) at level 4. Cannibalized most of his low level spell slots for sorcery points to fuel quickening Greenflame Blade so he could use it twice every round. The dragon soul comes with what amounts to permanent Mage Armor so his AC was fine and the subclass comes with extra hitpoints as well, giving him a pseudo-d8 for HP.

Interestingly, there's no restriction on a sorcerer being able to create a spell slot higher than what he can usually have using Font of Magic. This means a sorcerer can cast a Shadowblade as a 5th level spell as soon as he learns the spell at level 3, assuming he's willing to melt down a bunch of his other spell slots to do it. I don't recommend burning lower spells for a 5th level slot as early as level 3, but at, say, level 6 it starts making more sense to do it if you're really dedicated to being a melee DPS machine. And obviously, you want to leave yourself with enough sorcery points to quicken GFB. And enough level 1 slots for shield since you're wading around in melee.

Fun trick: you can declare yourself as the secondary target of your Greenflame Blade and use the incoming fire damage to trigger Absorb Elements, adding more damage to your first attack on the next turn. It's a pretty good "smite" like burst of damage.

[Alucard89]

I disagree: a pure sorcerer is entirely capable of using twinned/quickened metamagic to perform multiple attacks per turn via Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade. That's not to say multiclassing isn't optimal for a gish, because of course it is, but I object to the use of the word "need" in this context.

If you don't have extra attack you are wasting 5th level slot on 4d8 attack that may not hit and so waste 100% if your damage. With Extra attack even if one hit miss, you have another one. Even more if you have only one attack with 4d8 + Booming Blade and miss= you miss more damage in your turn.

There is a rule in 5E that especially showing itself with Paladins and their Nova/Smites- the more damage you can make per attack, the more costly are misses. The more damage each attack have- the more damage you miss. That is also a reason why GWM works best on multi-attack builds, but even then due to Smites- Paladins are almost always better with skipping GWM when going for smites.

Sure you can Quicken BB but as 2/18 build or even 20 sorcerer you have much better options in spells than in melee. Would you really waste 5th or 7th level slot on strong magical melee weapon for 1 minute if you have only one attack with it? You would be much better with using that slot on Animated Object for example.

Also you can twin BB or GFB it but it has to hit seperate targets.You can also twin sword but what when you CONC fails- two party members without weapon in hand? And yes you can Quicken BB with it, but I still don't see much value in wasting Concetration, 5th level (at least) slot for a build with single melee attack where you are more of a caster than melee. 6/14 builds are more front line melee with extra attack + Aura.

And if you are playing pure sorcerer you don't really want to be in front as melee without heavy/medium armor, one attack (even with Shadow Blade) while you could do much more with spells at range. Also Twin Haste will probably help your melee party members much more than twin Shadow Blade. Or Twin Holy Weapon which will last them 1 hour.

I am not saying you CAN'T use Shadow Blade or that you NEED extra attack. Buf if you are already commiting to Shadow Blade as Conc spell you are better as tanky 6/14 build with possible 3 attacks per turn (best as Vengeance Paladin so you can have VoE) to get value of your damage per attack.

That is why if he was planning to make Shadow Blade his core build feature- I would go 6/14 build for it and save it for boss fights. Otherwise- he has much more better options for concetration than this.

Shadow Blade is cool on paper and can shine in short boss fight, but in real-gameplay scenario- there are tons of better spells to use most of the time.

[EndEver]

I disagree: a pure sorcerer is entirely capable of using twinned/quickened metamagic to perform multiple attacks per turn via Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade. That's not to say multiclassing isn't optimal for a gish, because of course it is, but I object to the use of the word "need" in this context.



I had a lot of fun playing a full sorcerer gish for a while, and he used Shadow Blade as his main weapon. He was a Dragon Soul (Fire) Eladrin and used Greenflame Blade for most things. Elven Accuracy (And 18 Dex) at level 4. Cannibalized most of his low level spell slots for sorcery points to fuel quickening Greenflame Blade so he could use it twice every round. The dragon soul comes with what amounts to permanent Mage Armor so his AC was fine and the subclass comes with extra hitpoints as well, giving him a pseudo-d8 for HP.

Interestingly, there's no restriction on a sorcerer being able to create a spell slot higher than what he can usually have using Font of Magic. This means a sorcerer can cast a Shadowblade as a 5th level spell as soon as he learns the spell at level 3, assuming he's willing to melt down a bunch of his other spell slots to do it. I don't recommend burning lower spells for a 5th level slot as early as level 3, but at, say, level 6 it starts making more sense to do it if you're really dedicated to being a melee DPS machine. And obviously, you want to leave yourself with enough sorcery points to quicken GFB. And enough level 1 slots for shield since you're wading around in melee.

Fun trick: you can declare yourself as the secondary target of your Greenflame Blade and use the incoming fire damage to trigger Absorb Elements, adding more damage to your first attack on the next turn. It's a pretty good "smite" like burst of damage.

Oh interesting. Would you recommend the 2 levels of Paladin if I don’t plan on Draconic origin? (thinking shadow or Divine soul)

I really like the idea of being a sorcerer heavy Gish and thought Paladin would even out my AC but debated the Hexblade dip too.

In your experience as a full sorcerer Gish, would you say I’d be set back too far only going Sorcerer 17 or 18? And is Shadowblade workable enough that I wouldn’t need a Hexblade dip for SAD Paladin attacks?

[EndEver]

If you don't have extra attack you are wasting 5th level slot on 4d8 attack that may not hit and so waste 100% if your damage. With Extra attack even if one hit miss, you have another one. Even more if you have only one attack with 4d8 + Booming Blade and miss= you miss more damage in your turn.

There is a rule in 5E that especially showing itself with Paladins and their Nova/Smites- the more damage you can make per attack, the more costly are misses. The more damage each attack have- the more damage you miss. That is also a reason why GWM works best on multi-attack builds, but even then due to Smites- Paladins are almost always better with skipping GWM when going for smites.

Sure you can Quicken BB but as 2/18 build or even 20 sorcerer you have much better options in spells than in melee. Would you really waste 5th or 7th level slot on strong magical melee weapon for 1 minute if you have only one attack with it? You would be much better with using that slot on Animated Object for example.

Also you can twin BB or GFB it but it has to hit seperate targets.You can also twin sword but what when you CONC fails- two party members without weapon in hand? And yes you can Quicken BB with it, but I still don't see much value in wasting Concetration, 5th level (at least) slot for a build with single melee attack where you are more of a caster than melee. 6/14 builds are more front line melee with extra attack + Aura.

And if you are playing pure sorcerer you don't really want to be in front as melee without heavy/medium armor, one attack (even with Shadow Blade) while you could do much more with spells at range. Also Twin Haste will probably help your melee party members much more than twin Shadow Blade. Or Twin Holy Weapon which will last them 1 hour.

I am not saying you CAN'T use Shadow Blade or that you NEED extra attack. Buf if you are already commiting to Shadow Blade as Conc spell you are better as tanky 6/14 build with possible 3 attacks per turn (best as Vengeance Paladin so you can have VoE) to get value of your damage per attack.

That is why if he was planning to make Shadow Blade his core build feature- I would go 6/14 build for it and save it for boss fights. Otherwise- he has much more better options for concetration than this.

Shadow Blade is cool on paper and can shine in short boss fight, but in real-gameplay scenario- there are tons of better spells to use most of the time.

So if I plan on being Sorcerer Heavy either way with no extra attack you reccomend other spells instead of Shadowblade? Like quicken fireball and whatnot?

[Alucard89]

So if I plan on being Sorcerer Heavy either way with no extra attack you reccomend other spells instead of Shadowblade? Like quicken fireball and whatnot?

You can by all means use your concentration for Shadow Blade. But then you have to commit to melee fight because you just wasted spell for melee boost and if you don't use it... well.

If I were 2/18 I would focus in fight on things like Hypnotic Pattern, Mass Suggestion, higher slot Hold Person (more targets), twin Haste, Fear even (if you have Conquest Paladin in team), twin Holy Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Web etc. Spells that can really waste your enemies. If you get decent magic weapon (let's say a quite standard +1 longsword with 1d8 damage from some element) you are better keeping enemies locked in CC spell and you can still deliver a lot of melee damage with GFB or BB on your turn. Generally speaking- twinning a strong support spell for your "true" melee party members will do much better for team than you having 5k8 sword with one attack vs one enemy. Also Concentrating on AOE CC spell that can end encounter in one cast will also be more viable than you having stronger single attack. Bah, Fearie Fire will be much stronger on enemies than that. If you need to boost your magic damage- you are better casting Holy Weapon or twinning it because it will last 1 hour potentially, meaning for one 5th level slot you will boost melee in probably few encounters (if you are in let's say dunegon) vs Shadow Blade which will last only one for price of same slot.

I used Shadow Blade before I got decent magic weapons (got Longsword +2 with 2d8 force damage and before I had Short Sword +1 with 1d8 radiant) but only when:

1. Fighting boss with Legendary/Magic Resistances. Since I couldn't trust Hold spell or some other- Shadow Blade damage boost was great. I then twinned it for me and my Rogue friend. But once I got better magic swords I switched to Haste or Holy Weapon if I was going 1v1 on boss. Or Greater Invisibility.
2. Enemies resistanced to damage types I was using- nothing is resistant to physic I think (or almost) - happened 1 time only. But good to have.
3. Fighting a boss when I didn't have better magic weapon.
4. Roleplay- when I was without a weapon in castle and I summoned Shadow Blade and killed assassins.

But once I got a good magic weapon I prefered to cast Holy Weapon when facing multi encounters in a row. And in one hard encounter vs couple of strong enemies- Spirit Guardians are just better.

With 6/14 build having 2-3 attacks per turn helps a lot to capitalize on Shadow Blade (especially with VoE from Vengeance for extra crit chance). Because with one attack- each miss is spell wasted totally.

With 2/18 build considering much faster progression and access to super strong AOE/single disables or buffs you have- I would focus on those more.

And if you want to be strong single target blaster just go Sorlock 3/17 and spam EB + Quicken EB.

[Damon_Tor]

Oh interesting. Would you recommend the 2 levels of Paladin if I don’t plan on Draconic origin? (thinking shadow or Divine soul)

I really like the idea of being a sorcerer heavy Gish and thought Paladin would even out my AC but debated the Hexblade dip too.

In your experience as a full sorcerer Gish, would you say I’d be set back too far only going Sorcerer 17 or 18? And is Shadowblade workable enough that I wouldn’t need a Hexblade dip for SAD Paladin attacks?

Any dip is a level later for you to be able to cast shadow blade at level 7. It's fewer sorcery points and fewer spell slots, which means you can quicken fewer spells per day. Also, the Paladin doesn't have proficiency with con saves, so you're more likely to drop your Shadow Blade when you get hit, and you will. And practically speaking, there's the issue of Shield needing a free hand to cast, so you'd need to drop your Shadow Blade do get it up, burning your bonus action reforming it the next round.

Even without Dragon Soul, 13+Dex AC is just 1 casting of Mage Armor. Considering that Dex should be your primary score (+3 at level 1-3, +4 at level 4-7, +5 at level 8+) there's no significant advantage to heavy armor unless your DM is extremely liberal with upgrades/gold, and even then you'll need to invest in Str to move in it without a penalty.

You've got the Shield spell to back you up if your AC fails. If you feel like you need armor to wear a hexblade dip has you covered, with medium armor and a shield. You don't need it for cha-based attacks, so one level does just fine. The short-rest spell slot helps to ease the sting of losing a level of your real caster progression: think of the warlock slot as a free use of Shield every short rest. And unlike the paladin dip, you can take it at level 2 instead of 1 and still get the armor proficiencies, so you don't lose out on con saves.

My build used Dex as his primary stat, with Cha as his secondary. So MAD was never really a concern for what I put together.

Another minor note for making the best possible use of Shadow Blade: most of the light in the majority of dungeons comes from mundane fire, torches, candles, braziers etc. So the cantrip "Control Flames" is great. It casts silently even without Subtle metamagic, so you can stay hidden and start snuffing out candles and such before you enter combat.