What is Wizard Money?

[unseenmage]

What is rare and has worth to a high level mid to high op wizard? (Or any full caster really.)

You literally make gold.
Xp is not only a river it can be bought.
Souls are made/recycled extraplanarly, lucky you having Plane Shift prepared.
Sapient minds can be magically made from scratch.
Memories too thanks to Mindrape and friends.

Seriously, what can't high level, high op full casters get their hands on magically?

[Kalkra]

Welcome to the post-scarcity utopia which is the Tippyverse. Fear not, because when you''re nigh-omnipotent, there are probably spells to prevent you from dying of boredom.

[unseenmage]

Welcome to the post-scarcity utopia which is the Tippyverse. Fear not, because when you''re nigh-omnipotent, there are probably spells to prevent you from dying of boredom.

Nah, no Tippyverse, he uses specialized magic items as currency.

And for this I'm assuming a more or less regular D&D world, just with a handful of leet spellcaster's who have the potential to fight over... something.

Just dont know what they'd really bother fighting over.

[Hackulator]

The game is not designed to narratively describe the result of high level caster optimization. High level optimization characters are often counter to any sort of reasonable narrative because they often do things that only make sense from the point of view of something that isn't real and has no life, desires or enjoyment ie, optimized characters on this board are often Necropolitans for various builds even though becoming one requires a ritual where you are nailed to a post and slowly asphyxiate over a period of 24 hours, or who spend all their time casting various prep spells for months at a time leaving not time to have any life.

[unseenmage]

Psionic Items worth more than 25,000gp with "Psionic Items =/= Magic Items" ruling.

Wish for a Spellclock or magic trap or scroll with a high enough Simulacrum of a psionic character who can make one for you?

[unseenmage]

Simulacrum have no XP. Ambrosia/Liquid Pain is for magic items exclusively. How is this psionic simulacrum paying xp for crafting?

Transference spell probably. That or they can use psionic equivalent of wish for you.

Barring that theres always mind control magics on the real deal.

[noob]

Non magical objects worth 25001 gp are harder to create than the other objects.(you need to pull out a manual to get unseen crafter or something like that)

[unseenmage]

That could work. But you still need high level psionic characters to exist.

...
Which are kind of assumed if inaccessible high gp psionic items exist.

[Unavenger]

Stones of Jordan.

Serious answer: Why would wizards need money if there was nothing to buy with it that they couldn't make? But artefacts might fall under this category, although I'm sure there's some kind of simulacrum of an ice assassin of an aleax of a deity shenanigan that you could use to make those, mind.

[unseenmage]

Stones of Jordan.

Serious answer: Why would wizards need money if there was nothing to buy with it that they couldn't make? But artefacts might fall under this category, although I'm sure there's some kind of simulacrum of an ice assassin of an aleax of a deity shenanigan that you could use to make those, mind.

In PF technology artifacts are explicitly non-magical so theoretically one could make Simulacrum of Animated Objects of them.

But that is just for PF and just for tech artifacts.

[Crake]

You literally make gold.
Xp is not only a river it can be bought.

If you can make gold, gold becomes worthless, thus you cannot use it to buy xp. Thus xp itself becomes the currency. Keep in mind that xp must also be given freely, and not everyone will necessarily want to give it away.

I actually ran an ultra high magic campaign where xp was the currency, it was used to operate fabrication devices, converting xp into raw materials at an exchange rate of 1xp:5gp using the wish conversion rate, though some of the more commonly available materials like wood, iron, and general foodstuffs, were free via the use of lower level spells. Essentially, the big cities became hubs where people could live without ever actually working a day in their lives, basic needs were all met, but any luxury desires were paid for using xp, and like a pyramid scheme, slowly worked their way up toward the top dog of each city: an epic level wizard, with everyone below him essentially staying at level 1, generating xp from day-to-day encounters and experiences, and then spending it on luxury goods and services.

Basically cities became xp farms for epic level wizards.

[Vizzerdrix]

High level fighters. Think of them as living symbols of a wizards status that can e traded.

[Endarire]

Crake: EXP as currency reminds me of Dark Souls.

[Covenant12]

The answer is: it depends.

Max TO you can have effectively unlimited gold and xp, and get whatever you want. Or full Pun-Pun, explain what your character does to himself and the rest of the campaign world to the DM, then retire and play a different rpg. (Paranoia is a great contrast)

Generally you are looking at a combination of house rules and gentleman's agreements by level 15, or earlier if ambitious/chain slapping Efreeti. To my knowledge there isn't an outright ruling on the limits on "free" wishes. Judgement call if not house rule, you have to decide.

I like the Frank and K treatment, but even that's a house rule really. Free wishes can get 15k gold in magic items, 25k gold in coins/gems etc. Otherwise limited to what miracle can get for free. +5 vorpal sword? Pay the full exp cost, or start crafting. Then add planar currencies that cannot be wished for, or the less popular system in Union. +3 swords are a big deal. +2 swords are paperweights, carry an assortment in your golf bag.

Free xp isn't really correctable. It is a river, but unlimited free xp I couldn't really balance. So I suggest banning thought bottle outright, among others.

[noob]

Fabricate overcomes that.

True only for small enough objects.
For example a giant cube of lead could go way over fabricate size limit(especially if it is worth more than 25001 gp such as a 93233^2132^4234 tons cube of lead(kept in a plane where there is no gravity)).

[Segev]

Knowledge. There's always something more to learn. Whether it's new spells, new factoids, new intelligence on threats which might impinge on you from an angle you haven't thought of yet...it's valuable.

Peers. Creating self-replicas and slaves as powerful (or more so) than you that are under your absolute command gets dull after a while.

Levels. Getting XP gets harder the higher level you are; sure, you can recover from losing it with things around your current/old level, but as you get more powerful, the things that can provide you with XP become rarer and rarer.

And, of course, creativity. In theory, with super-mind-stats, you have lots of it, but yours will still be different from others', so their ideas will be unique, if not necessarily "better" than yours.

[noob]

I'm sorry, are we not talking about infinite CL wizards?


Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.
yes your wizard(or one of his many ice assassin) will get really bored.

[tyckspoon]

yes your wizard(or one of his many ice assassin) will get really bored.

Nah, you nanobots that kind of job. Just teleport nigh-infinite minions to designated surfaces on the cube, make sure each is equipped with some way to cast Fabricate, and they each independently shape their own section of the overall cube into whatever it's eventually supposed to be. It's simple.

[noob]

Wait we're not talking about Wish replicating Fabricate?

I did not think about casting time replacement.

[ezekielraiden]

You have the right phrase, but the wrong punctuation.

"What" IS Wizard money. The answers to questions. Inquiry itself. Divination is not infallible (in fact, it may be the easiest school to fool/evade). The knowing of how to do something, where something is located, when an event will occur. *That* is the currency that never stops being valuable.

That and, I guess, artifacts. There usually aren't rules for making them. I'm reminded of how Diablo II had a community-run barter economy because gold was almost instantaneously worthless. Everything was rated against the Stone of Jordan item.

[unseenmage]

Was thinking about it and thanks to immortality, Teleport Through Time, and the retraining rules the highest op wizard can have whatever class stuff they want.

Especially with Simulacrums of themselves then retrain back.

[Bronk]

What would be valuable to wizards at the highest level?

Better spells, prestige, secrets, and safety.

So, probably there would be a high level of competition for real estate in protected, magically bountiful areas such as Dweomerheart and the House of Knowledge.

[noob]

What would be valuable to wizards at the highest level?

Better spells, prestige, secrets, and safety.

So, probably there would be a high level of competition for real estate in protected, magically bountiful areas such as Dweomerheart and the House of Knowledge.
Except a wizard can create the knowledge it wants and can make any place it wants.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hard to acquire class abilities? Everything else is easily doable, either directly or indirectly, with spells.

[noob]

Hard to acquire class abilities? Everything else is easily doable, either directly or indirectly, with spells.

Acquiring class abilities can again be done with spells but it is usually considered cheeze of the highest order.

[unseenmage]

I'd also considered that when surrounded by so much that is made artificially they might begin to value that which is genuine.

Sure they can build the perfect whatever but finding it in the wild is so much more fascinating.

Like penultimate uber multi planar bird watchers or reality TV addicts.

Or the ultimate collectors of fresh mint NIB adventurers.

[Karl Aegis]

You trade in favors like everyone else.

[Traab]

Entertainment. Someone touched on it with the whole "I will give you the name of my uber thrall if you do this for me." You are now the top .1% You have the power to do pretty much anything your mind can conceive of, attain whatever you want. You are effectively a god without divine levels. So thats the currency for the tippy top of the power curve. You send minions out to run harrowing errands and watch them for entertainment. Send that dumb warrior out on a mission to cleanse the sewers of Xarganarthatenicy of its dire rat infestation, then toss him a trinket as a reward for the amusing scene of watching him run screaming through a cesspit. It doesnt cost you much of anything to craft him some item or other that will be an upgrade for him. Just a little time. Or crack open your storehouse o' loot to grab one of the random items you got over the course of your own leveling journey that means nothing to you now. As a wizard you have more or less anything you could ever need or want, so now its time for fun and avoiding boredom.

[HouseRules]

Well, when I DM, Evil Wizards use virgins as their source of money. What else is better than fathering an army of Evil Wizards?

[Hackulator]

Well, when I DM, Evil Wizards use virgins as their source of money. What else is better than fathering an army of Evil Wizards?

gross :smalleek:

[Malphegor]

Well, when I DM, Evil Wizards use virgins as their source of money. What else is better than fathering an army of Evil Wizards?

That's a very silly idea. Because all your money is immediately devalued the moment a hero radiates his impressive charisma score near your banking account.

I believe it was number 8 on the expanded Evil Overlord Lists' sublist regarding ultimate weapons or spells:


No Ultimate Incantation that requires sacrifice of a Virgin is worth the trouble of a) securing such a rarity and b) relying on a quality that is so easily cured by an amorous Hero or Heroine in less than a minute of stolen time.

[AmeVulpes]

Depending on the wizard, they may value knowledge. Say their Knowledge (The Planes) skill sucks, and they don't know what an Efreeti is. That's actually valuable information for a high-level wizard. Custom spell scrolls/epic tablets.

High-level druids might trade in detailed anatomical diagrams of dinosaurs- or tamed specimen- so that they can Wild Shape into them, if dinos are rare in your campaign.

You could use some of the more obscure rules to trade in XP. When you're making an item, and someone wants to purchase your services, just have them provide all of the XP for it. Way more valuable than gold.

Artifacts... neat lookin' rocks. Rare bugs. Shiny pokemon. Whatever.

[martixy]

What level of BS are we talking about?

If you're asking for anecdotes, my world uses a concept called "essence", which can manifest as anything from magic to souls. There's a limited amount of it in the universe, so it fulfils the primary prerequisite of being money.

[Quarian Rex]

If you can make gold, gold becomes worthless, thus you cannot use it to buy xp. Thus xp itself becomes the currency. Keep in mind that xp must also be given freely, and not everyone will necessarily want to give it away.

I actually ran an ultra high magic campaign where xp was the currency, it was used to operate fabrication devices, converting xp into raw materials at an exchange rate of 1xp:5gp using the wish conversion rate, though some of the more commonly available materials like wood, iron, and general foodstuffs, were free via the use of lower level spells. Essentially, the big cities became hubs where people could live without ever actually working a day in their lives, basic needs were all met, but any luxury desires were paid for using xp, and like a pyramid scheme, slowly worked their way up toward the top dog of each city: an epic level wizard, with everyone below him essentially staying at level 1, generating xp from day-to-day encounters and experiences, and then spending it on luxury goods and services.

Basically cities became xp farms for epic level wizards.

World of Prime has adapted this idea to be the standard from level one, making xp a tangible resource. It has some very interesting effects on the game world even at low levels, effects that I quite like.

To the OP, I would think that most Wizards would actually trade in spells. Not all Wizards are going to have the same interests, capabilities, or motivations, and so their research (which is expensive and time consuming) may go in some very particular directions, but almost all can appreciate the fruits of someone else's efforts. A good example of this was in the Tales of Wyre (https://leagueofimaginaryheroes.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/sepulchraves-tales-of-wyre/) where most of the high level mages would deliberately stay on good terms with each other and buy favors from each other by providing access to their spellbooks.

[noob]

Many of the recent posts here ignore the premise of omnipotent ice assassin swarming at will wish using wizard which can create entire universes within the blink of an eye and even create entirely new species or any form of matter whenever it wants and which can succeed in infinite dc skill checks whenever they want and can when they want get all the spells ever by making an ice assassin of an animated spellbook containing all the spells(the book does not needs to exist for you to make an ice assassin of it).

[AmeVulpes]

Many of the recent posts here ignore the premise of omnipotent ice assassin swarming at will wish using wizard which can create entire universes within the blink of an eye and even create entirely new species or any form of matter whenever it wants and which can succeed in infinite dc skill checks whenever they want and can when they want get all the spells ever by making an ice assassin of an animated spellbook containing all the spells(the book does not needs to exist for you to make an ice assassin of it).

If you are correct in your interpretation, then the thread is over, because nothing matters, and every possible gameworld has already self-destructed for the purpose of meaningful play anyway.

[Segev]

The Wizard can just level a random dominated adventurer. Put the adventurer in a cage, call/summon a creature, repeat until said adventurer is level 20.

This invokes the whole xp reward debate thingy about challenges and risk of death and etc. etc., but whatever the DM comes up with the wizard can optimize to match it and get what he wants.

So I guess the only thing wizards would trade in is high level dominated psionic adventurers to ice assassin and simulacrum from. Epic slaves are the currency.

"I will reveal the name of my super thrall if you do this quest for me"


Entertainment. Someone touched on it with the whole "I will give you the name of my uber thrall if you do this for me." You are now the top .1% You have the power to do pretty much anything your mind can conceive of, attain whatever you want. You are effectively a god without divine levels. So thats the currency for the tippy top of the power curve. You send minions out to run harrowing errands and watch them for entertainment. Send that dumb warrior out on a mission to cleanse the sewers of Xarganarthatenicy of its dire rat infestation, then toss him a trinket as a reward for the amusing scene of watching him run screaming through a cesspit. It doesnt cost you much of anything to craft him some item or other that will be an upgrade for him. Just a little time. Or crack open your storehouse o' loot to grab one of the random items you got over the course of your own leveling journey that means nothing to you now. As a wizard you have more or less anything you could ever need or want, so now its time for fun and avoiding boredom.

These spark an interesting thought: aside from entertainment, what if "send out adventurers to level the old fashioned way" is the optimal way to get the classes at the levels you want? Rather than dominating a human and keeping him in a cage for controlled leveling via summons, it turns out that every step towards optimizing that process led more and more to keeping a pet adventurer to go on quests tailored to his level, and that optimal XP-to-risk ratios were obtained when it was a mix of classes in parties between 3 and 7, with a spike of optimality at 4 and 5?

Why are there so many non-wizard adventurers? The ubermages who create and send the parties on these quests have figured out that having fighters and rogues makes the whole thing advance more efficiently for their purposes, so they incentivize the "mundanes." In fact, the evil-er ubercasters don't want competition, so the survival rate of high-level fighters and rogues is higher, as "mysterious" coincidences hit the poor mages in the parties fairly more often.

The side benefit that watching parties do dungeon crawls is Reality TV for the ubercasters is also a factor. It's almost like there's some sort of "Dungeon Master" behind all of this, plotting a contrived series of adventures for the entertainment of some of his friends and acquaintances to participate in every week or so.


Well, when I DM, Evil Wizards use virgins as their source of money. What else is better than fathering an army of Evil Wizards?

What do the female evil wizards trade in? Male virgins don't really increase the production rate of their armies of their own progeny. And "virgins" is inefficient, anyway, as that property may have mystical significance, but has little bearing on the bearing capability of the would-be mother.

I mean, yes, "ew," but these are EVIL wizards, so them being gross in such a fashion is par for the course. But the impracticalities of the stated goals and reasons are also glaring, and not answered by, "They're evil! *jazzhands*"

[Psyren]

In PF technology artifacts are explicitly non-magical so theoretically one could make Simulacrum of Animated Objects of them.

But that is just for PF and just for tech artifacts.

This explicitly won't work:


Technological artifacts refer to items beyond the means of anyone to create or replicate, as well as beyond conventional measures of value.

Any form of replicating them (simulacrum or otherwise) will fail.

Also in PF, wishing for wealth (currency or items) is no longer on the safe list.

[Segev]

Also in PF, wishing for wealth (currency or items) is no longer on the safe list.

Not to mention wonky, since you're not converting XP to gp anymore, given that wish has a 25000 gp diamond as a material component. "I wish for 25000 gp of wealth!" that costs that diamond is basically a high-level fabricate at that point.

[Hackulator]

I mean, yes, "ew," but these are EVIL wizards, so them being gross in such a fashion is par for the course. But the impracticalities of the stated goals and reasons are also glaring, and not answered by, "They're evil! *jazzhands*"

I would say that not all evil people are rapists, and that this falls under the umbrella of things that should only be introduced to your game if you are prepared to do it with a certain level of responsibility and seriousness. If you flippantly introduce your evil characters as serial rapists that doesn't say good things about you.

[Traab]

The whole virgin sacrifice thing is funny because everyone seems to treat it as if you have to also be like, 18 years old. A newborn is a virgin, a 3 year old is a virgin, a 10 year old is a virgin, etc etc etc. While im sure that somewhere out there exists an evil book that describes the reason why as something like the power gained increases as the victim ages, reaching its peak at young woman range. But I havent really stumbled across them. So as my evil overlord virgin sacrificing self, im raiding the local pediatricians office or maternity ward for supplies. Closes up that heroes charisma weakness quite nicely. Plus I get extra evil points for sacrificing toddlers.

[Segev]

I would say that not all evil people are rapists, and that this falls under the umbrella of things that should only be introduced to your game if you are prepared to do it with a certain level of responsibility and seriousness. If you flippantly introduce your evil characters as serial rapists that doesn't say good things about you.

Not all evil people are murderers. Not all evil people are thieves. Not all evil people are sadists. Not all evil people are adulterers. Not all evil people are anything, except in some fashion evil. I'll agree that rape as something that is actually meant to be considered is not to be brought into a game casually, for the same reason that sex in general is not. Any kind of evil is going to be something you deal with on a case-by-case basis based on the table's comfort. Any kind of intimacy, similarly. Rape is a special kind of evil to our culture, but that doesn't make you a terrible person for saying terrible people do it.

Besides, my point was that the whole notion was stupid if it was for the reasons given for sheer impracticality. Not only are roughly half of even evil casters not going to care about this "currency" if it's purpose is the reason given, the purpose isn't best served by that "currency" anyway!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Genuine unique experiences, self-actualization, and spiritual fulfillment would rank right up there with new spells, for some wizards. Just like with the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, what do you do when your base needs are all taken care of? You hop up to less basic needs, then wants, then self-fulfillment. And you don't get your needs taken care of much better than with D&D magic.

[King of Nowhere]

Keep in mind that while the wizard can, given enough time, do pretty much everything, he still has to put effort into it.
I mean, I can work for one year and then buy an expensive car, but that does not mean that the expensive car is meaningless to me just because I can figure out a process where I will end up getting it.

So, while the wizard can get gold and xp and items and stuff with proper magic, it would still take time. Stuff would be valuable to the wizard depending on how much time he needs to get them.

[maruahm]

This is a bit of a meme answer, but magic trap mechanics are literally Turing-complete and can be used to simulate a blockchain-based currency system.

All that needs to happen is for enough important wizards to agree that this currency has value, and boom, you're in business.

[Segev]

This is a bit of a meme answer, but magic trap mechanics are literally Turing-complete and can be used to simulate a blockchain-based currency system.

All that needs to happen is for enough important wizards to agree that this currency has value, and boom, you're in business.

Blockchain systems have stability issues partially because they're SO fiat in terms of what they're actually worth that their otherwise-robust scarcity mechanisms lack a fixed real-world value. Fiat currencies IRL that do have stability are fiatted to be worth a particular amount of something meaningful in the real world. The USD, for instance, is the currency the US Federal Government will accept taxes in, and also what the US Federal Reserve will give loans and take loan repayments in. Rome did much the same to stabilize their currency, wrt taxes: all taxes had to be paid in Roman currency, even when the currency wasn't actually containing the precious metals they were said to be worth.

Wizards working a blockchain-verified (remember, blockchain is verification, not "backing") currency would need to still equate it to something of real value. One thing that's of potential real value is spell slots. "One Wizbang" might be worth a level 1 spell slot, with a conversion rate for additional higher level ones.

Or, if that is too much of a flexible thing at sufficiently high level (where they maybe have infinite spell slots), perhaps Wizbangs are worth a certain amount of wizardly time. Or even level-hours (i.e. a number of hours times the level of the wizard working them). Working out a conversion ratio between wizbangs and dollars would be tricky, but doable. With enough trading, you could determine just how much wizbang for your buck you're getting.

[maruahm]

Blockchain systems have stability issues partially because they're SO fiat in terms of what they're actually worth that their otherwise-robust scarcity mechanisms lack a fixed real-world value.

Right, as you say, blockchain is a verification system. That's all that a consortium of wizards would need, since wizards themselves are effective backers. They're excellent examples of maintainers of Weber's monopoly on violence. All we need to understand are why wizards would agree to back a certain fiat currency.

We'll consider first that currency only exist if the people who are to use it need to exchange value via some medium other than the goods themselves. So we can generally believe that wizards would place a high utility on consistent and dependable IOU slips.

There are two scenarios. The first is that only one wizard is a hegemon. This wizard can just declare that their Wizbang is the only IOU with value and enforce it with all the memery that high-level Tier 1 casters are capable of. This doesn't seem too unlikely, and is probably closest to a theoretically optimized kind of situation, since whenever a wizard has a slight advantage over others, they would just destroy their competitors until they're either dead or the hegemon themselves.

MAD prevents this, e.g. every wizard has a planet-busting magic contingency keyed to their being alive, which leads us to the second scenario.

The second scenario is that there are multiple very powerful wizards. This situation will test just how high of a utility the wizards place on having a form of currency. In general, there will be multiple competing systems of blockchain currencies. This is a type of voting game. Usually, how these turn out is a few choices will rise above the rest and become competing de facto currencies. This is because there's a high return in utility on consolidating regions of control for currency. That said, it's likely many small islands of "minor wizard" currency will continue to exist, they'll just be like what the Angolan Kwanza is to the US Dollar.

In the second scenario, the actual value of the currencies is determined by how much actual goods a wizard is willing to trade for it. Since wizards have enough access to information, their currencies will very quickly reach equilibria.

In the first scenario, the currency's overt value is determined by the hegemon, who if smart would just let it float. However, if not, a Wizbang-based black market could arise.

[noob]

Blockchain systems have stability issues partially because they're SO fiat in terms of what they're actually worth that their otherwise-robust scarcity mechanisms lack a fixed real-world value. Fiat currencies IRL that do have stability are fiatted to be worth a particular amount of something meaningful in the real world. The USD, for instance, is the currency the US Federal Government will accept taxes in, and also what the US Federal Reserve will give loans and take loan repayments in. Rome did much the same to stabilize their currency, wrt taxes: all taxes had to be paid in Roman currency, even when the currency wasn't actually containing the precious metals they were said to be worth.

Wizards working a blockchain-verified (remember, blockchain is verification, not "backing") currency would need to still equate it to something of real value. One thing that's of potential real value is spell slots. "One Wizbang" might be worth a level 1 spell slot, with a conversion rate for additional higher level ones.

Or, if that is too much of a flexible thing at sufficiently high level (where they maybe have infinite spell slots), perhaps Wizbangs are worth a certain amount of wizardly time. Or even level-hours (i.e. a number of hours times the level of the wizard working them). Working out a conversion ratio between wizbangs and dollars would be tricky, but doable. With enough trading, you could determine just how much wizbang for your buck you're getting.

The problem is that you can have an ice assassin wizard under your orders that have an infinity of virtual turns per turn so in fact wizard time is easy to get.
On the other hand in a group of wizard that are both negligent enough for not telling the specifics of what to do to their ice assassins and which makes ice assassins that are lazy(and so wants to follows the orders while spending as few virtual rounds as possible on doing so) and forbids them from creating more ice assassins then maybe that currency would be a valid currency for ice assassins(but not for regular wizards).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Y'know, after a certain point, our relationships with others are all that really matter.

This is especially poignant for wizards.

After all, Friendship IS Magic...

[maruahm]

The problem is that you can have an ice assassin wizard under your orders that have an infinity of virtual turns per turn so in fact wizard time is easy to get.

Then the currency will be keyed to some other value.

Frankly, I think that a world of wizards with 10 trillion ice assassin duplicates isn't one where the wizards would even need currency, but under the presumption that our wizards do, they clearly have something they wish to trade through IOUs.

Whatever that is, is the key that determines the value of the currency. Otherwise, wizards wouldn't bother developing currency.


After all, Friendship IS Magic...

I thought the point of being a wizard was to socially isolate yourself in some giant tower in the pursuit of ultimate power.

I mean, if we're going to do the whole friendship thing, I might as well be a sorcerer. At least then I'd have the Charisma for it.

[Hackulator]

Not all evil people are murderers. Not all evil people are thieves. Not all evil people are sadists. Not all evil people are adulterers. Not all evil people are anything, except in some fashion evil. I'll agree that rape as something that is actually meant to be considered is not to be brought into a game casually, for the same reason that sex in general is not. Any kind of evil is going to be something you deal with on a case-by-case basis based on the table's comfort. Any kind of intimacy, similarly. Rape is a special kind of evil to our culture, but that doesn't make you a terrible person for saying terrible people do it.

Besides, my point was that the whole notion was stupid if it was for the reasons given for sheer impracticality. Not only are roughly half of even evil casters not going to care about this "currency" if it's purpose is the reason given, the purpose isn't best served by that "currency" anyway!

No, but how you choose to say it, in the context of including it in your game, might make you a terrible person.

Also to be clear, I'm not at all trying to imply anything you said was problematic.

[noob]

Then the currency will be keyed to some other value.

Frankly, I think that a world of wizards with 10 trillion ice assassin duplicates isn't one where the wizards would even need currency, but under the presumption that our wizards do, they clearly have something they wish to trade through IOUs.

Whatever that is, is the key that determines the value of the currency. Otherwise, wizards wouldn't bother developing currency.



I thought the point of being a wizard was to socially isolate yourself in some giant tower in the pursuit of ultimate power.

I mean, if we're going to do the whole friendship thing, I might as well be a sorcerer. At least then I'd have the Charisma for it.
It is precisely due to low charisma that it is friendship and not love.

[Âmesang]

A bit simplistic, but my GREYHAWK® archmage would likely prize ancient currency from the Suel Imperium, most notably mithral embers (mithral coins infused with cinnabar).

…well, you know …besides obtaining the remaining Octychs or knowledge of Power Magic in general. :smalltongue:

[PopeLinus1]

I think most high level wizards would just nuke each other off the face of the earth the moment they realized how powerful they were.

[noob]

I think most high level wizards would just nuke each other off the face of the earth the moment they realized how powerful they were.

then only a wizard who did read about the tippyverse would survive the war thanks to an infinity of ice assasins and nested demiplanes and fusing with an aleax of an ice assassin of themselves.

[Mars Ultor]

I thought the point of being a wizard was to socially isolate yourself in some giant tower in the pursuit of ultimate power.


Some giant tower close to schools and shopping. There are actual monsters in the wilderness, smart wizards want to live in a city with infrastructure. In a metropolis there's a steady supply of adventurers grinding themselves into giant sewer monster chow and keeping the creatures contained, in the 'burbs there are creatures that can ruin your day and leave droppings all over your spire.

[Caedes]

What is rare and has worth to a high level mid to high op wizard? (Or any full caster really.)

Seriously, what can't high level, high op full casters get their hands on magically?


In short. Ley Lines. Or more specifically the rare places a Ley Line can be tapped into. It ain't currency. But it is definitely something worth fighting over.


https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-rules/ley-lines/

[Traab]

Some giant tower close to schools and shopping. There are actual monsters in the wilderness, smart wizards want to live in a city with infrastructure. In a metropolis there's a steady supply of adventurers grinding themselves into giant sewer monster chow and keeping the creatures contained, in the 'burbs there are creatures that can ruin your day and leave droppings all over your spire.

At the level we are talking about, any monster capable of ruining your day probably wouldnt care if they had to go through a city first anyways. Tarrasques are treated like gophers in your garden, a sigh of annoyance, a twitch of your fingers, and said varmint is now floating in the negative energy plane or something.

[mabriss lethe]

You trade in favors like everyone else.


Pretty much this.

for several reasons.

1. wizards, while they theoretically *can* do everything, probably don't want to. Having someone who owes you a solid do the (potentially dirty) grunt work is just more convenient.

2. a level of plausible deniability between peers. If you want something shady done that one of your peers might take issue with, then call in a favor from one of the clients of your patronage (see point 4) and wash your hands of it.

3. favors between peers are a decent way of creating stability and a web of loose alliances. You aren't likely to nuke the guy who owes you a favor, nor are you likely to condone your other peers nuking him either. (see point 2 for the work around)

4. It can create a certain sort of patronage system. Up and comers are granted a few minor favors by more powerful characters. and while those favors might be very minor to the patrons, they grant security and a leg up to the clients. In time, as those clients grow into their own power, the patron reaps a double benefit, the passive benefit of having the client under his nominal control, and then ability to call in the favors he granted (with interest)

[Aquillion]

A lot depends on exactly how highly-optimized the wizard is and what you let them get away with. In particular, allowing people to mess too much with planar time traits or ice assassins / simulacrums / other potentially exponentially-growing powers leads to all sorts of weird places. Unlimited wish loops also introduce problems. But those things don't usually come up in play.

If you're limiting it to what most DMs would allow, the answers are:

Most importantly, time. A high-level wizard can do almost anything, but it takes time and energy, so stuff that saves them time is valuable. High-level scrolls, for example, are still worthwhile - yes, they could scribe them themselves, replace any resources spent doing so, re-earn the XP, etc. Or they could trade for one. Often trading will be cheaper, since a high-level wizard's time is worth more. This is why fiddling too much with time planar traits breaks everything.

Beyond that, stuff that takes time even for a high-level wizard. Yes, they can make magic items. But it's easier to trade for them. Even money has some small value (although they can make it easily enough that they probably won't trade anything they consider truly valuable for it.)

Obviously, favors with other high-level beings, especially ones that have unique powers.

Spells they don't know. The books aren't comprehensive. There's unlimited spells out there. Yes, you can research them yourself, but that takes time and effort. Copying another wizard's spellbook can save you huge amounts of time and effort.

Artifacts. That's sort of their role in the setting.

Social status in established societies, including owning land in key areas. This might seem odd - you can just teleport / plane shift wherever and claim whatever you want, right? But each established culture has its own unique art, skills, people, resources, and so on. The collective time and effort that went into these would be hard for even a high-level wizard to fully match. They could replicate any one thing from most cultures, sure, but holding high status in such societies saves you a great deal of time and energy if you want their things. Some of this also covers abstracts - if a wizard wants to be invited to high-society balls, or attend exclusive theater or the like, they need the various things that society values. Some of this can be short-cut with magic, but not all of it, and often shortcuts have drawbacks, take time or energy, risk making enemies, or would defeat the purpose of getting these things in the first place (ie. a wizard who wants rich and famous friends might not be happy just mindraping them, since deep down he'll know his "friends" are just mind-slaves who would hate him if they could.) Not every wizard cares about this, but most want something out of the world that can't just be conjured into being.

Usually, given their power, it isn't hard for wizards to acquire these things. But they do have to actually work to acquire them, so often they could be used as "money" in that respect - something you can trade with a wizard to get what you want, or something they might trade among each other.