How would you do spell scrolls?

[Man_Over_Game]

Let's say creating a scroll for a spell was a feat. Sounds reasonable, right?

How would you go about it?

To write down a spell scroll, it requires a number of hours equal to the spell's level to focus and create the scroll. Each hour you write the scroll, you must make a DC 10 + spell level check to see if you made progress using your spellcasting modifier and your Arcana Proficiency (if any), otherwise the hour you spent is wasted. Valid spells are any spells that you know and have spell slots for that takes no more than 10 minutes to cast.

For the inks/materials needed to write the scroll, you must spend 50 gold of materials per level of the spell. This is spent per each successful hour of scribing the scroll.

Once the scroll is completed, you expend the spell slot needed for the spell.

Creating a scroll is taxing, and until the energy of the scroll is expended, you cannot regain the spell slot used for the scroll.

You can mentally remove the magic of a unspent scroll after a Long Rest.

You can also place specific restrictions for the spell, reflecting that it can only target specific creatures, within a specific area, or usable by a specific person. These can be as specific as you'd like, and these are known to anyone who can read the scroll.

As an aside, I'd have it be that Wizards apply their Savant features to reducing the cost of writing scrolls.

For the sake of narrative, don't forget that wizard spellbooks don't have to take a book form, and I'd expect scrolls to be the same way. It'd be kinda cool if a Druid made a Pass Without Trace charm out of a monkey's bone.

[stoutstien]

I've had similar problems trying to balance alchemy and herbalism for those who enjoy crafting.
As for scrolls
I've made them semi expensive. Basically follow the same rules as wizards scribing a new spell they found.
Limit to ritual spells at first and can research to discover more.

[Frozenstep]

Creating a scroll is taxing, and until the energy of the scroll is released, you cannot regain the spell slot used for the scroll.

Does this mean making spell scrolls for someone else to use is the only way they'd be useful?

[Corpsecandle717]

I don't think the scaling is quite there. A couple day's worth of work and 450 gold is pretty cheap for a few extra 9th level spells.

Xandar's puts a 9th level spell scroll at 250,000 gp and 48 weeks, which seems a bit too steep, but I figure it's worth mentioning to show how your solution scales.

[Man_Over_Game]

Does this mean spell scrolls are only useful for giving to others?

Correct. To be fair, I'm not really sure why someone would create a spell scroll if they already knew it.

When you write a note, you're writing it for yourself to maintain your memory (a spellbook).

When you write a manual, you're writing it for someone else to learn what you already know (a scroll).

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't think the scaling is quite there. A couple day's worth of work and 450 gold is pretty cheap for a few extra 9th level spells.

Xandar's puts a 9th level spell at 250,000 gp and 48 weeks, which seems a bit too steep, but I figure it's worth mentioning to show how your solution scales.

"Extra"? That's a pretty loose interpretation.

You're still missing out on a level 9 spell slot until the scroll is spent, so it's actually generally hinders a caster. It's best used for a spell slot the caster doesn't expect he needs to cast, like a Warlock who prefers to use Eldritch Blast.

[stoutstien]

"Extra"? That's a pretty loose interpretation.

You're still missing out on a level 9 spell slot until the scroll is spent, so it's actually incentivized for the scroll to be used sooner rather than later.
Wouldn't this be more punishing for a warlock and half with lower slot count?
I am curious how this slot store in scroll would play out. Or simulacrums to bypass the slot reduction but that is late game

[Corpsecandle717]

Ah! I miss-read that part. I mistook it to mean that the spell slot was unavailable until the scroll was complete (should have read it a little closer). Given what you're going for I think it's petty balanced, I just have meta questions now. Is this meant to replace the standard scroll rules as a variant or are there now two different types of scrolls?

[Man_Over_Game]

Wouldn't this be more punishing for a warlock and half with lower slot count?
I am curious how this slot store in scroll would play out. Or simulacrums to bypass the slot reduction but that is late game

Potentially, but Warlocks also have the most powerful options for not using spell slots of any caster (with a 1d8 hit die, invocations, boons and other benefits). Simulacrums/Wish are the one thing that I see being a problem, but I don't see much else.

I suppose I could write it in a way that grants the user your spell slot and the spell to cast immediately, so there's no ambiguity how Simulacrum or Wish works, but I didn't want to make stuff overly complicated.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ah! I miss-read that part. I mistook it to mean that the spell slot was unavailable until the scroll was complete (should have read it a little closer). Given what you're going for I think it's petty balanced, I just have meta questions now. Is this meant to replace the standard scroll rules as a variant or are there now two different types of scrolls?

Actually, there are already two different kind of scrolls: Magical scrolls and bullsh** that should have never been implemented into the game (spell scrolls). Together, it makes some stupidly overcomplicated rules that make scrolls incredibly inaccessible to players.

I'd just have one kind of scroll that anyone can read (specified by the scroll-maker).

[stoutstien]

Potentially, but Warlocks also have the most powerful options for not using spell slots of any caster (with a 1d8 hit die, invocations, boons and other benefits). Simulacrums/Wish are the one thing that I see being a problem, but I don't see much else.

I suppose I could write it in a way that grants the user your spell slot and the spell to cast immediately, so there's no ambiguity how Simulacrum or Wish works, but I didn't want to make stuff overly complicated.
Simulacrums are constructs now I think so you could must add that they can't write scrolls for whatever reason.

Do the do the user of the scroll have to maintain concentration of a spell if needed? I'm guessing yes

[Corpsecandle717]

Actually, there are already two different kind of scrolls: Magical scrolls and bullsh** that should have never been implemented into the game (spell scrolls). Together, it makes some stupidly overcomplicated rules that make scrolls incredibly inaccessible to players.

I'd just have one kind of scroll that anyone can read (specified by the scroll-maker).

LOL. It might be worth it to edit the original post to include that sentiment.

That said I'm thinking about it and I worry about price scaling again. You're basically creating the ability to spread out concentration spells and have each member non caster running some sort of buff spell. Many of those classes are proficient in constitution saves so it's likely that those spells will linger around for a few rounds, that strikes me as pretty significant.

[Man_Over_Game]

Simulacrums are constructs now I think so you could must add that they can't write scrolls for whatever reason.

Do the do the user of the scroll have to maintain concentration of a spell if needed? I'm guessing yes

I didn't go into it into detail, but the final result would word it so that the spell slot and the spell known is cast as if the user was casting it. So it'd be treated as the user's spell at the instant of casting. This would mean that Sorcerers, with Metamagic, would be great at reading scrolls (but not so much at writing them due to the Arcana use).

[stoutstien]

I didn't go into it into detail, but the final result would word it so that the spell slot and the spell known is cast as if the user was casting it. So it'd be treated as the user's spell at the instant of casting. This would mean that Sorcerers, with Metamagic, would be great at reading scrolls (but not so much at writing them due to the Arcana use).
Oh fun! I do like that.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The cynical part of me thinks that somehow wizards scribing from scrolls was the reason that spell scrolls were limited so much.

But really, I've gone a different direction.

I created an item to take the place of non-scribable, anyone-useable, one-use spell-casting tokens.

Inscribed Spell-stone
Wondrous Item, Rarity varies
This piece of magicite crystal have been imbued with the pattern for a specific spell. Holding one and saying the command word (etched into the crystal’s surface) triggers the spell and destroys the crystal. Unlike scrolls, anyone can use a spell-stone. However, wizards cannot use a spell-stone to scribe a new spell into their spell-book.
When the spell-stone is used, the stored spell is cast but the caster does not need to provide any of the usual components (except vocally saying the command word). The spell is cast at the minimum level possible and the spell attack bonus and spell save DC comes from the table below.

Spell Level | Spell Attack Bonus |Spell Save DC |Rarity
Cantrip | +4 |12 |Common
1 |+4 |12 |Common
2 |+4 |12 |Uncommon
3 |+5 |13 |Uncommon
4 |+5 |13 |Rare
5 |+6 |14 |Rare
6 |+6 | 14 |Very Rare
7 |+7 |15 |Very Rare
8 |+7 |15 |Legendary
9 |+8 |16 |Legendary

Making them is exactly like making any other consumable magic item, except you don't need a pattern and the item required is magicite (which is expensive, especially in the quality needed for the higher levels). No additional cost--the "cost" listed in Xanathar's only sets the required time. Jewelers' tools proficiency is the tool requirement.

This also lets me give out items like a resurrection stone for a one-use thing for a party without a cleric.

And if all you want is a bomb, you can make flawed spell stones:
Flawed Spell-Stone
Wondrous Item, uncommon
This piece of magicite, once destined to become an inscribed spell-stone, developed a critical flaw after being charged with aether. As a result, it is highly unstable. When it strikes a creature or surface after being thrown or launched from a sling it explodes, forcing all creatures within 5 feet of the detonation point to make a DC 13 Dexterity saving throw, taking 3d6 force damage on a failed save or half as much on a success. When thrown, treat it as an improvised weapon that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. On a miss, it explodes adjacent to the target.

Greater Flawed Spell-Stone
Wondrous Item, rare
This piece of magicite, once destined to become an inscribed spell-stone for a higher-level spell, developed a critical flaw after being charged with aether. As a result, it is highly unstable. When it strikes a creature or surface after being thrown or launched from a sling it explodes, forcing all creatures within 5 feet of the detonation point to make a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw, taking 6d6 force damage on a failed save or half as much on a success. When thrown, treat it as an improvised weapon that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a hit. On a miss, it explodes adjacent to the target.

[Unoriginal]

Let's say creating a scroll for a spell was a feat. Sounds reasonable, right?


I disagree. Spell scrolls are magic items, using a Feat to be able to scribe them is contrary to 5e's core principles.

Either you're making the process more complicated compared to what it already exist, or you're making being able to make scrolls way too powerful.

As to being able to leech spell slots from scrolls, it'd be a hard "no" for me.



The Xanathar's rules for scribing scrolls are good. I don't feel the need or see a reason to change them.



Correct. To be fair, I'm not really sure why someone would create a spell scroll if they already knew it.

So they can cast the spell without spending spell slots. Or trade the scroll.

[Man_Over_Game]

I disagree. Spell scrolls are magic items, using a Feat to be able to scribe them is contrary to 5e's core principles.

Either you're making the process more complicated compared to what it already exist, or you're making being able to make scrolls way too powerful.

As to being able to leech spell slots from scrolls, it'd be a hard "no" for me.



The Xanathar's rules for scribing scrolls are good. I don't feel the need or see a reason to change them.




So they can cast the spell without spending spell slots. Or trade the scroll.

My idea was to spend your own resources and lose your own spell slot (indefinitely) to allow someone else to cast it. You effectively lose the ability to both cast that spell and regenerate that spell slot until that scroll is used up. It just adds utility to your allies and lets them cast stuff they don't have access to without making the group that much more powerful. It also gives more reasons why scrolls might be available. But maybe the Xanathar's rules work for some. It's a bit too long for me (pretty counterintuitive to adventuring).

[Unoriginal]

My idea was to spend your own resources and lose your own spell slot (indefinitely) to allow someone else to cast it. You effectively lose the ability to both cast that spell and regenerate that spell slot until that scroll is used up.

I know, I've read the thread.



It just adds utility to your allies and lets them cast stuff they don't have access to without making the group that much more powerful.

So it'd only be useful when someone in the group needs a spell you can cast, when you're not around to cast it.

Certainly not worth a feat, IMO.



It also gives more reasons why scrolls might be available.

I doubt any spellcaster would leave their scrolls unused for long (since with your system it'd mean long-term handicap for them), so I don't see how it'd make the scrolls available.





It's a bit too long for me (pretty counterintuitive to adventuring).

Like all crafting, it's not supposed to be done in the middle of adventuring. It's a downtime activity.

[Asmotherion]

Let's say creating a scroll for a spell was a feat. Sounds reasonable, right?

How would you go about it?

To write down a spell scroll, it requires a number of hours equal to the spell's level to focus and create the scroll. Each hour you write the scroll, you must make a DC 10 + spell level check to see if you made progress using your spellcasting modifier and your Arcana Proficiency (if any), otherwise the hour you spent is wasted. Valid spells are any spells that you know and have spell slots for that takes no more than 10 minutes to cast.

For the inks/materials needed to write the scroll, you must spend 50 gold of materials per level of the spell. This is spent per each successful hour of scribing the scroll.

Once the scroll is completed, you expend the spell slot needed for the spell.

Creating a scroll is taxing, and until the energy of the scroll is expended, you cannot regain the spell slot used for the scroll.

You can mentally remove the magic of a unspent scroll after a Long Rest.

You can also place specific restrictions for the spell, reflecting that it can only target specific creatures, within a specific area, or usable by a specific person. These can be as specific as you'd like, and these are known to anyone who can read the scroll.

As an aside, I'd have it be that Wizards apply their Savant features to reducing the cost of writing scrolls.

For the sake of narrative, don't forget that wizard spellbooks don't have to take a book form, and I'd expect scrolls to be the same way. It'd be kinda cool if a Druid made a Pass Without Trace charm out of a monkey's bone.


i believe the material component cost is taxing enough that you can regain the spell slot on a long rest. it's meant to be usefull for hoarding some spells when you really need them imo.

[Zhorn]

I don't think the scaling is quite there. A couple day's worth of work and 450 gold is pretty cheap for a few extra 9th level spells.

Xandar's puts a 9th level spell scroll at 250,000 gp and 48 weeks, which seems a bit too steep, but I figure it's worth mentioning to show how your solution scales.

50gp per level makes sense for copying into spellbooks, but not for active scrolls, waaaaaaay too cheap, even if the spell slot is being locked out till used.
Similarly, while I like the intended direction of Xanathar's system, the gold expense and time element still felt too far out of practical reach for use.
Here's a snippet on scrolls from a thread I posted up a while back for crafting systems


Some personal tweaks and adjustments to the baseline crafting rules in 5e.
... In the case of spell scrolls, a character must know the spell and have an available spell slot of the appropriate level accessible while crafting. A spellcaster can assist the crafter in making a magic item to supply the spell and/or spell slot requirements.

Spell Scrolls
Preparing and binding magic into a spell scroll is more involved than copying a spell formula between books, and as such is more time consuming and costly


Spell Level
Attack Bonus
Save DC
Crafting
Time (days)
Crafting Cost
Equivalent Rarity


Cantrip
+ 5
13
1
25 gp
Common


1st
+ 5
13
2
50 gp
Common


2nd
+ 5
13
3
100 gp
Uncommon


3rd
+ 7
15
4
250 gp
Uncommon


4th
+ 7
15
5
500 gp
Rare


5th
+ 9
17
6
1,000 gp
Rare


6th
+ 9
17
7
2,500 gp
Very Rare


7th
+ 10
18
8
5,000 gp
Very Rare


8th
+ 10
18
9
10,000 gp
Very Rare


9th
+ 11
19
10
25,000 gp
Legendary



Additional Costs
If a spell has material components with a cost value, those materials need to be supplied in addition to the crafting cost of the spell scroll. The material components are consumed in the crafting of the scroll.

9th level spells cost a minimum of 25,000 gp purely because of Wish, since the spell can create an object of that value.
1st level spells I started at the 50 gp mark for probably the same reason as OP did for their feat, just seemed right.
everything in between was just a gradual slope between the two to keep in alignment with the price I set for other item types.

[solidork]

Correct. To be fair, I'm not really sure why someone would create a spell scroll if they already knew it.

When you write a note, you're writing it for yourself to maintain your memory (a spellbook).

When you write a manual, you're writing it for someone else to learn what you already know (a scroll).

I know Revivify as a Warlock spell and I don't want to have to always save one of my slots, so I've made a scroll of Revivify in my last downtime week. Pretty reasonable to be honest.

[Shuruke]

Not sure how you guys would feel about this

But way I do it is use the tables from Xanathars but rather than days of downtime its amount of longrests

In the same way an alchemist spends 50gp per lb of alchemical materials and deducts 1/2 cost of thing their crafting (acid etc) from it.

You'd do same for scrolls
Stock up on materials for 50gp a lb
And every longrest can make a 1st level scroll for 25gp

Every 3 long rests a 2nd level for 250
Etc.

Then during downtime they can also male scrolls or work toward one they've been making
(I hand out 1 week of downtime a session allowed to use however many during between adventure travelling/fast travelling between sessions.)

I also rule that cantrips cap as if cast as high as a 5th level character based on who makes scroll.
This hasnt really made many differences other than the occasionally npc using a scroll from players during combat while cowering under wagon during the combat. (The npcs players get stuck with typically cower during combat only occasionally throwing out or attempting to use something given to them. Alchemist fire , acid , etc.)

[Frozenstep]

Actually, there are already two different kind of scrolls: Magical scrolls and bullsh** that should have never been implemented into the game (spell scrolls). Together, it makes some stupidly overcomplicated rules that make scrolls incredibly inaccessible to players.

I'd just have one kind of scroll that anyone can read (specified by the scroll-maker).

You probably should mention that anyone can use spell scrolls (if allowed by the scroll-maker) in the initial post, because here I was thinking it'd only be usable in some extreme niche case (you know a spell another party member has on their class list but can't cast, and you want them to be able to cast it should the need arise). Also, what do you do about spells with material costs?

...Also I admit I misread the initial post in another way. I thought the cost of the final scroll was (spell slot level * 50) * number of hours to scribe, basically making a 5th level spell cost 1250 gold.

[Shuruke]

Infuse Magic
Starting at 4th level, you gain the ability to
channel your artificer spells into objects for later
use. When you cast an artificer spell with a
casting time of 1 action, you can increase its
casting time to 1 minute. If you do so and hold a
nonmagical item throughout the casting, you
expend a spell slot, but none of the spell’s effects
occur. Instead, the spell transfers into that item
for later use if the item doesn’t already contain a
spell from this feature.
Any creature holding the item thereafter can
use an action to activate the spell if the creature
has an Intelligence score of at least 6. The spell is
cast using your spellcasting ability, targeting the
creature that activates the item. If the spell targets more than one creature, the creature that
activates the item selects the additional targets. If the spell has an area of effect, it is centered on
the item. If the spell’s range is self, it targets the
creature that activates the item.
When you infuse a spell im this way, it must be
used within 8 hours. After that time, its magic fades and is wasted.
You can have a limited number of infused
spells at the same time The number equals your
Intelligence modifier.


This is from artificer in u.a

You could base the feat off this or even

Just add the
During this time your slot is taken up by the infused spell slot and you cant use that spell as a spell known.

Or have this be a thing all casters can do with support spells as long as they take feat

[stoutstien]

Something I used for my alchemy/ herbalism rewrite is a max use = to con modifier a per day. I wanted a max limit of potions a character could benefit from a day.
Some use up 2+ points due to the strain on the body.(invisibility take +2 as example so a rogue with a 14 con could benefit once per day and from no other potions.)
Maybe to keep scrolls in line I similar cap could work?

[olskool]

50gp per level makes sense for copying into spellbooks, but not for active scrolls, waaaaaaay too cheap, even if the spell slot is being locked out till used.
Similarly, while I like the intended direction of Xanathar's system, the gold expense and time element still felt too far out of practical reach for use.
Here's a snippet on scrolls from a thread I posted up a while back for crafting systems



9th level spells cost a minimum of 25,000 gp purely because of Wish, since the spell can create an object of that value.
1st level spells I started at the 50 gp mark for probably the same reason as OP did for their feat, just seemed right.
everything in between was just a gradual slope between the two to keep in alignment with the price I set for other item types.

Zorn, you and I have the same idea regarding the creation of Spell Scrolls. The only things I did differently after I got Xanathar's was that I changed the costs slightly and add a few requirements to limit the power level of Spell Scrolls for multi-classed Casters. My added rules are as follows:

COSTS:
0 Level (cantrips) = 50gp
1 Level = 100gp
2 Level = 250gp
3 Level = 500gp
4 Level = 1,000gp
5 Level = 2,500gp
6 Level = 5,000gp
7 Level = 10,000gp
8 Level = 15,000gp
9 Level = 25,000gp

- This cost chart does NOT include the cost of any MATERIAL COMPONENTS which must also be included in the cost of the Scroll as well.
- The Scroll creator must also cast the spell as part of the ritual (expending the appropriate Spell Slots) and those slots will regenerate normally.
- I also require a Skill Roll versus the creator's ARCANA Skill at DC 20 + Spell Level (cantrips are 0 level), and the Caster's ARCANA bonuses do apply to this Proficiency check.
- Finally, the ritual used to create the scroll costs the caster 1+1 Hit Die per Spell Level of the scroll being created (a 9th Level Scroll will cost 10 HD) due to the exhausting nature of the magical transfer during the creation ritual. All HD MUST be from casting class Hit Dice (ie a 10th Level character with only 3 Levels in Wizard can only create 2nd Level Wizard Spell Scrolls), and recover like they were used for damage recovery.

I use these rules to help characters supplement their class abilities in an otherwise "magic poor" environment. I have a preference for one-use magical items such as Scrolls and Potions over "durable magic" because of the hard choices they require the characters to make.

[KorvinStarmast]

Let's say creating a scroll for a spell was a feat. Let's not. 5e does not work that way. Feats are optional. Creating a spell scroll is per the DMG part of the basic kit.