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Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-27, 06:01 PM
As some of you may know, I'm currently working with a couple of buddies on a d20 Modern game involving hunting vampires and other supernatural beings. We have a new member who plans on having his character be a rookie cop who gets effectively conscripted into our band when he encounters a monster or something on the job. The character doesn't like procedure, since his primary concern is putting the bad guys away and protecting the people. He's currently thinking about levels in Dedicated Hero, and then taking the Investigator advanced class. What would be some ideal feats and other levelling suggestions that would make him an effective vampire hunter along with the rest of us? Any questions, comments, advice, criticism or insults are welcome, of course. Thank you:smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2007-09-27, 06:10 PM
If a normal squishy human wants to hunt vampires then the most effective piece of equipment they can perchuse is a bodybag, to help those who have to clean up after them with a minimum of fuss.

D20 vampires have an enormous boost in that their are no primary spellcasting classes and no turning classes and no magic items. Without them a vampire is devoid of all the checks that those who originally designed them thought would be in place to fight the unholy undead. I've played a vampire in a d20 setting, it got very boring as there wasn't anything around that could seriously challenge a well thought out lair to keep the sun off you and at night there wasn't anything short of a nuclear weapon that could hurt you. And don't even get me started on the insane idea of trading in your weaknesses for reduced immunities. :smallannoyed:

Ralfarius
2007-09-27, 06:15 PM
If a normal squishy human wants to hunt vampires then the most effective piece of equipment they can perchuse is a bodybag, to help those who have to clean up after them with a minimum of fuss.

D20 vampires have an enormous boost in that their are no primary spellcasting classes and no turning classes and no magic items. Without them a vampire is devoid of all the checks that those who originally designed them thought would be in place to fight the unholy undead. I've played a vampire in a d20 setting, it got very boring as there wasn't anything around that could seriously challenge a well thought out lair to keep the sun off you and at night there wasn't anything short of a nuclear weapon that could hurt you. And don't even get me started on the insane idea of trading in your weaknesses for reduced immunities. :smallannoyed:
Did... Did you try fire? Fire sets even well thought-out lairs on fire. One thing I learned from playing WoD is that arson can solves a great many problems, at least in the short term.

Telvos
2007-09-27, 06:20 PM
Arson; is there anything it can't do?

/lights his chair on fire.


On a serious note, though... Even in d20 modern, I'd say a priest should be able to exhibit enough faith to turn a vampire. Even though it wouldn't be a normal, d&d undead-blasting rush of holy power, it would be enough to at least give you an edge in a fight with a vampire; maybe a penalty to the vampire's AC or at least a brief stun.

Depends on the DM, as usual.

Justyn
2007-09-27, 07:04 PM
Libris Mortis (although a non d20 modern book) has some good feats for undead, and it specifically has the Vampire Hunter feat: In makes you immune from the vampire's or vampire spawn's dominating gaze, and lets you take a move action to unfailingly determine if there are any vampires or vampre spawn withing thirty feet of yourself. All this with the sole prerequisite of having six ranks in Knowledge (religion).

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-27, 08:20 PM
I suppose I better clarify a little more. What I was looking for was character building advice. I'm full aware that vampires are going to be tough, but that isn't the only thing we're fighting. Other supernatural things that will be easier to fight will be there to fight at lower levels. The vampires themselves will be taken on at higher levels, and we're figuring in the traditional ways of keeping them at bay (garlic, crosses, etc.). If we do face vampires at lower level, they'll most likely be vampire spawn, which are weaker. Also, once we progress in the story far enough, two of the players will become creatures of the night themselves (one a vampire, the other a wererwolf) and the humans will recieve a boost in level to keep it even. And besides, one of the characters is going to have levels in Shadow Slayer, so he'll make a great equalizer in facing these monsters.

So, what would be a good build for someone wanting to take levels in Dedicated Hero and Investigator? Again, any and all advice is appreciated. Thank you.:smallsmile:

Telvos
2007-09-27, 10:03 PM
This is dependant on a few things.

First of all, are vampires in d20 vulnerable to white phosphorous?

Well, in any case:

I'd roll some sort of hybrid clergyman-type class with some sharpshooter or riot-control style building. Either use white phosph. grenades to take down the vamp (assumin you can nail him/her with one) or just play the waiting game with some special-made sniper bullets. I'm thinking dipped in holy water, or with some sort of hollow points you could put the holy water into.

Sniper would probably work best as you'd be nice and safe an *away*. Problem would be not getting arrested, or causing a massive panic. All depends on the setting I suppose.

Completely your call though. I don't have any books here at work so i can't give you and direct advice from the books

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-27, 10:14 PM
To clarify a little further, the current line-up includes myself (a Smart Hero, later taking levels in Fast Hero, Soldier and Field Scientist), my brother (a Strong hero, later taking levels in Fast Hero and Shadow Slayer), and my brother's friend (not sure of the actual build, but he plans on taking levels of Gunslinger). The reason I ask for our latest member is because I'm not the best at optimization, and I prefer to get advice from experts like you people. Hope that helps a little.:smallsmile:

(Actually we're already going to be using custom bullets (though not at the outset I assume)! My character's going to develop them (since he's a smart hero and all)!:smallcool: )

jaqueses
2007-09-27, 10:25 PM
What level is this at? Does he want to be useful in general or in combat?

Feat wise I would suggest taking Brawl, Defensive Martial Arts, and Quick Draw.

For skills I would suggest getting Drive and Intimidate from the Law occupation and putting ranks in Investigate, maybe 2 in Drive, spread some in the Know(tactics), Sense Motive, Listen, and possibly treat injury.

Good talents would probably be from the Empathic and Insightful trees and going with Empathy first.

Telvos
2007-09-27, 10:32 PM
What level is this at? Does he want to be useful in general or in combat?

Feat wise I would suggest taking Brawl, Defensive Martial Arts, and Quick Draw.

For skills I would suggest getting Drive and Intimidate from the Law occupation and putting ranks in Investigate, maybe 2 in Drive, spread some in the Know(tactics), Sense Motive, Listen, and possibly treat injury.

Good talents would probably be from the Empathic and Insightful trees and going with Empathy first.

That sounds much better than my mumblings; d20 isn't my strong point; I haven't played it in a long time, and even back then I only played a few games of it -_-

Hawriel
2007-09-27, 10:40 PM
why not just play vampire the masquerade but from the humans point of view? You could also check out 3.0 Ravinloft aslo published by white wolf and take the ideas from that into D20 modern. Sorry I cant find my Ravinloft book or I would list some feats out of it. :smallmad:

I really dont see why the absence of magic weapons and such would be a problem. I would think tech would make it easier to kill a vampire.

High powered UV maglights. Same but bigger and put on a truck. Flame throwers, willy pete, napalm, thermite, Crossbows with big nasty barbed arrows....attached to a winch, as in the james woods movie. Guns, shotguns would be a vampire hunters best friend. Explosive rounds for a shotgun, flichet rounds, buckshot and flichet rounds made of hard woods like oak. It does not matter how big the stake is or its shape as long as its wood and peirces the heart. If your vampires are hurt by holy water...squirt guns, or put a presurised water tank on a truck with a hose. Or you can have garlic juice made with holy water. Well that list is long enough and Im sure you can put your mayhem driven gamer mind to come up with more ideas. Oh one more thing sence you mentioned warwolves. Automatic shotgun 50 round drum silver slugs.

Other than any helpfull feats that might be in the book I cant find. I would say building a character with heavy combat in mind should do, along with any acult knowledge they would need.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-27, 10:41 PM
What level is this at? Does he want to be useful in general or in combat?

Feat wise I would suggest taking Brawl, Defensive Martial Arts, and Quick Draw.

For skills I would suggest getting Drive and Intimidate from the Law occupation and putting ranks in Investigate, maybe 2 in Drive, spread some in the Know(tactics), Sense Motive, Listen, and possibly treat injury.

Good talents would probably be from the Empathic and Insightful trees and going with Empathy first.

Well, I'm not exactly sure of what level, since some characters (namely mine) are going to be at higher level than others. Since later in the game my brother and his friend plan on becoming a werewolf and a vampire respectively, both of which have a level adjustment of +2, the DM has suggested starting my character, who will remain human, at level 3 and have him play the role of squad leader and mentor to the others.

Good suggestions for skill and feat placement. Thank you! I've reccomended them to him and I've got a better idea of what he may want to be like. The character he has in mind is more like a detective than a police officer. The role he's kind of thinking of is being sort of a tracker for the group, helping us hunt these beasts down by investigating the trail of bodies they leave, so to speak. I've also thought that Drive would allow him to become a good getaway driver, in case we need to chase the foe down or are being chased by them. Thoughts?

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-27, 10:48 PM
why not just play vampire the masquerade but from the humans point of view? You could also check out 3.0 Ravinloft aslo published by white wolf and take the ideas from that into D20 modern. Sorry I cant find my Ravinloft book or I would list some feats out of it. :smallmad:

I really dont see why the absence of magic weapons and such would be a problem. I would think tech would make it easier to kill a vampire.

High powered UV maglights. Same but bigger and put on a truck. Flame throwers, willy pete, napalm, thermite, Crossbows with big nasty barbed arrows....attached to a winch, as in the james woods movie. Guns, shotguns would be a vampire hunters best friend. Explosive rounds for a shotgun, flichet rounds, buckshot and flichet rounds made of hard woods like oak. It does not matter how big the stake is or its shape as long as its wood and peirces the heart. If your vampires are hurt by holy water...squirt guns, or put a presurised water tank on a truck with a hose. Or you can have garlic juice made with holy water. Well that list is long enough and Im sure you can put your mayhem driven gamer mind to come up with more ideas. Oh one more thing sence you mentioned warwolves. Automatic shotgun 50 round drum silver slugs.

Other than any helpfull feats that might be in the book I cant find. I would say building a character with heavy combat in mind should do, along with any acult knowledge they would need.

Gosh! I wasn't thinking about the kind of equipment we could use! Almost makes me regret deciding against becoming a Techie! :smallbiggrin: Frankly, the d20 Modern book is all I have. I'd like to see what feats and skills I can draw from Urban Arcana for this sort of thing, but regrettably I can't find the book in stores.

(By the way, White Wolf actually published a game from the humans' point of view. It's called Hunter: The Reckoning. Spawned a couple of video-game spinoffs if memory serves. Also, I'm kind of ashamed to admit that Wizards of the Coast is the only supplier I've bought from.:smallfrown: I know and trust them, and I confess I'm a bit reluctant to play White Wolf products or even 3rd party d20 products since I'm not sure what I'll find.)

jaqueses
2007-09-27, 10:59 PM
Well, is d20 future allowed? If so then the Urban Tracking feat might be good for replacing Brawl or Defensive Martial Arts. If not then taking track for following things through sewers or a park might be a good idea, and putting points in survival rather than treat injury.

Heh, forgot to suggest equipment. Cop, so probably should have a Glock 17, service issued. Maybe have one or two canisters of smoke or tear grenades. A metal baton and stun gun, possibly a knife would be a good idea too. If proficent an undercover vest would be a good idea. And in general one can't forget 1 uniform, casual clothes, cell phone, duct tape, hand-cuffs (steel and zip-ties), a lockpick set, multipurpose tool, flashlight, ammunition, and a holster.

TheOOB
2007-09-27, 11:32 PM
The biggest problem with D&D/d20 vampires it that they are a mismatched mash up of different unrelated vampire powers and weaknesses from different mythologies. To make a good vampire themed game, the vampire should be completely remade. Make a list of all powers and weaknesses all vampires possess, keep it small and trim, they drink blood, are physically superior to humans, immortal, and die by sunlight is a good start, and maybe add a couple other things. Then add new powers and weaknesses to individual vampires and/or vampire clans (a la V:tM) making them more unique.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-28, 12:28 AM
Well, is d20 future allowed? If so then the Urban Tracking feat might be good for replacing Brawl or Defensive Martial Arts. If not then taking track for following things through sewers or a park might be a good idea, and putting points in survival rather than treat injury.

Heh, forgot to suggest equipment. Cop, so probably should have a Glock 17, service issued. Maybe have one or two canisters of smoke or tear grenades. A metal baton and stun gun, possibly a knife would be a good idea too. If proficent an undercover vest would be a good idea. And in general one can't forget 1 uniform, casual clothes, cell phone, duct tape, hand-cuffs (steel and zip-ties), a lockpick set, multipurpose tool, flashlight, ammunition, and a holster.

May want to look into d20 Future, if only for those options. I forgot that Track only works in wilderness areas

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-28, 12:29 AM
The biggest problem with D&D/d20 vampires it that they are a mismatched mash up of different unrelated vampire powers and weaknesses from different mythologies. To make a good vampire themed game, the vampire should be completely remade. Make a list of all powers and weaknesses all vampires possess, keep it small and trim, they drink blood, are physically superior to humans, immortal, and die by sunlight is a good start, and maybe add a couple other things. Then add new powers and weaknesses to individual vampires and/or vampire clans (a la V:tM) making them more unique.

I'll suggest that to our GM next time I see him. What I'm really scared of however are zombies. Since my brother and the GM just watched Dawn of the Dead, they've decided they should be infectuous.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-28, 12:49 AM
Then, it'll be like werewolves D&D: don't let 'em hit you. Use det cord and white phosphorous, and ask them to allow for some kind of extra rare antidote that has to be ingested before an hour passes.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-28, 07:53 AM
What's det cord?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-28, 12:20 PM
*superpowerful shiver* let's not talk about what it is, please. *whimpers* The horror, the horror...*remembers something*...700 points of damage....

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-28, 01:48 PM
Okay, this is obviously traumatizing, so I'll ask something else. About white phosphorous, are we talking flash grenades here?

Telvos
2007-09-28, 02:07 PM
White Phosphorous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorous)

Particularly read the part "...can also be used as an offensive anti-personnel flame compound capable of causing serious burns or death."

If fire kills a vamp, then a WP weapon'll make short work of them.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-28, 03:24 PM
Yikes! I was thinking more along the lines of weapons that won't result in a great deal of collateral damage. Our group is part of a secret society, not a top-secret government organization.

Hawriel
2007-09-28, 11:14 PM
no a WP grenade is really what your characters will want to use. Find the lare make sure the Vamp is in his box tos in a WP grenade. It may cuase the whole building to burn but hay thats just cover for your activites. its not a napalm bomb. the best thing about WP it cant be washed off. it must be cut out. so a vamp is even more in a world of &##!. really WP and flame throwers should be the heavy weapons against the acult. not much more powerfull than that should be needed. ok C4 and det cord. One of your guys should know demolitions. C4 and det cord are safe to use and easy to transport. thermite witch ive mentioned befor not so much.

I under stand your reluctance to buy other game books out side or WOTC. To be honest Ive gotten some crappy stuff. Hell some of it from wizards. The ravenloft book is really good. White wolf did a nice job keeping the feal of the setting from the old D&D books. I found a coppy on my computer and 3 other books for the setting, there are soome pritty cool stuff in there. I suggest looking up books on amazon and reading the feadback from readers that are posted. If a book is crap posters will let you know.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-29, 02:01 PM
Thanks, but what are C4 and det cord? I'm not very familiar with modern weaponry.

Dareon
2007-09-30, 05:08 AM
C4 is plastic explosive. Moldable, can be stuck to stuff. Det cord is essentially a very, very fast-burning fuse. It doesn't technically explode, but there's very little difference given its rate of burn. Both are detailed on page 104 of the d20 Modern book, as well as Thermite and WP grenades.

Personally, I'd go up against a d20 Modern vampire having thoroughly researched any weaknesses it might have beyond the obvious (Like, say, being harmed by Elvis memorabilia. I love that line on the Supernatural Monster Weakness table.), and of course packing some of that. One of the books I think has statted out a dart rifle, with those little injecting needle darts. I'd carry some of those, loaded with holy water or maybe garlic extract, depending on availability and DM allowance.

If your DM is playing the vampires straight, you can really mess with the battlefield by using cloves of garlic as grenadelike weapons. Just toss them into squares near the vampire and cut off his movement.

But on the original topic, Dedicated/Investigator is good, a decent, flavorful build for a police officer. Defensive Martial Arts is a good choice for a feat, but depending on how prevalent undead are, Brawl might be a waste. Combat Throw and Improved Combat Throw might be good choices to play off DMA, representing the training some police officers have in judo or other martial arts. On the more offensive side of the scale, however, we have the common tactic of Personal Firearms Proficiency, with Double Tap thrown in.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-09-30, 06:42 AM
I'll suggest that to our GM next time I see him. What I'm really scared of however are zombies. Since my brother and the GM just watched Dawn of the Dead, they've decided they should be infectuous.

Zombies a a bit of a joke in d20 modern since their weakness is high damage ranged weapons. Just autofire them, moving backwards each turn and zombies are useless.

Unless you port 3.5 Monster Manual Zombies, DR 5/slashing is very powerful in d20 modern.


The biggest problem with D&D/d20 vampires it that they are a mismatched mash up of different unrelated vampire powers and weaknesses from different mythologies.

So are all fictional vampires. d20 vampires are designed to reflect what players expect from vampires. A true mythological vampire would be a very differant kind of enemy.


To make a good vampire themed game, the vampire should be completely remade.

I completely remade vampires for my d20 modern game, but since it was a zero magic setting the core vampires wouldn't have fitted at all. I made vampirism a disease that did Con and Cha drain. If your Con reaches 0 you die, if your Cha reaches 0 you become a deranged flesh eating monster and if you pass enough fortitude saves to recover before any stats reach 0 you become a carrier with no special powers but still able to infect humans. The vampires had no supernatural abilities but they had regeneration (which normal undead vampires can't have) and light sensitivity (like Drow and Orcs) instead of being burnt by sunlight, making them in some ways more of a threat.


Make a list of all powers and weaknesses all vampires possess, keep it small and trim, they drink blood, are physically superior to humans, immortal, and die by sunlight is a good start, and maybe add a couple other things. Then add new powers and weaknesses to individual vampires and/or vampire clans (a la V:tM) making them more unique.

Vampires die all the time in the Blade Movies and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, vampires shouldn't be that vulnerable to stakes and sunlight. Putting a stake in a corpse can only really be done if you hammer it in and the corpse isn't moving. The sunlight thing was invented by movies so I like just throwing it out completely.

Differant clans can be good to shake things up if the players get too used to taking out one kind of vampire.


Both are detailed on page 104 of the d20 Modern book, as well as Thermite and WP grenades.

My players alway make sure to carry as many Thermite grenades as possible.

A bow with white phosphorus arrows can be more deadly than a rifle if you have a good strength score.

Dhavaer
2007-09-30, 07:15 AM
He's currently thinking about levels in Dedicated Hero, and then taking the Investigator advanced class.

What abilities does he want from Investigator?
Dedicated 4/Soldier 2/Investigator x sounds alright.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-10-01, 12:17 AM
Well, I'm not exactly sure what level of skill he wants with Investigator specifically. Like I said, his main gig is that he's thinking of being our tracker. Frankly I don't see any other way a detective would fit in with a bunch of people who fight vampires, zombies, werewolves and the occasional witch or warlock on a nightly basis.

TheOOB
2007-10-01, 12:34 AM
Well, it is nice to have someone who is good and finding out who is a creepy goth kid and who is a vampire, the scary part about vampires isn't their power, but that they can live among humans, perfect ally concealed.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-10-01, 12:50 PM
Hm. That's a good point. Thanks! Any other suggestions as to levels, feats or skills?

leperkhaun
2007-10-01, 01:19 PM
Unbalance opponent, forgot what its prereq was i think its combat martial arts or something like that.

Unbalance opponent makes it so that one person doesnt get their str mod on hits against you. On supernatural critters with high str scores its great.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-10-01, 04:02 PM
I see. Of course, judging by what he's told me I think he's going to prefer hanging back and picking them off with a Glock. Unbalance Opponent sounds more like my brother's character, who will be getting up close and personal with these things.

Mewtarthio
2007-10-01, 05:17 PM
Here's a list of the most common vampire weaknesses, for reference:

Sunlight: Classical vampires were simply powerless in sunlight, while a lot of modern vampire stories have the vampires get permanently turned to dust on exposure. Dracula himself was simply weakened significantly during the day. Regardless, sunlight is always a bad thing for vampires (though sometimes its the time of day itself).
Holy symbols: Sometimes it's the symbol itself, sometimes it's the faith behind it, but a good deal of vampires are repulsed by that which is holy. Prepare to define exactly what they're weak against and justify it. Justifications run the gamut from "Vampires are unable to bear that which they loved in life" to "faith alone has great power" to "religion works."
Running water: You should probably avoid this. It's too much trouble to define exactly what counts as "crossing running water" in the modern, sewer-filled world. That being said, if you can clarify it yourself, go for it.
Garlic: Garlic is cheap. Smelly, but cheap. I'd nix it. Far too easy for people to run around wearing garlic necklaces.
Wooden stakes: Unless you're characters are supernaturally empowered with the ability to kill vampires, this is strictly for dispatching a vampire already rendered helpless. There's a reason armies spend money on big, expensive knives rather that just handing out broken bits of wood. That reason is called the "rib cage." No vampire should ever get slain by a wooden stake in a combat situation against mundane humans.
Private property: This is a very good weakness. If you run a "clans" system with multiple combos of strengths and weaknesses, the vampires you intend to serve as major antagonists should get this. Why? Because it renders the vampire trackable, which the detective archetypes love. Additionally, it gives the players a bunch of safe houses: Dracula won't mist in through the window and slaughter everyone in their sleep. If the vampire garners an invitiation into the house, it should be a very big deal. You can still keep the players on their toes, since they'll be fighting plenty of enemies who aren't so courteous (possibly even lesser vampires under a "clans" system), but the BBEG himself will have to resort to either minions or trickery if he wants the PCs offed.


Additionally, vampires are great villians because nobody agrees on their powers. They are, therefore, incredibly modular monsters. Vampires in general (and the Big Bad Evil Vampire in particular) should be given unique traits that the players can exploit. I'm not talking about those inane weaknesses on that table ("No! The laughter of children! I cannot abide the laughter of children!"); I'm talking about the kinds of weaknesses that the heroes can plan a campaign around. Let's take Bram Stoker's Dracula as a case study:
Dracula can only sleep in holy ground. Coupled with his inability to enter any private property unless he either owned the place or got invited, this gives him a limited number of "safe houses" (namely, the dirt he'd imported from Transylvania). The heroes spend the second half of the book locating his coffins through his property purchases and filling them with holy wafers, which are anathema to him. Once he's down to his last coffin, they have to chase him down before he can transport himself back to Transylvania, where he can plot at his leisure.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-10-01, 06:41 PM
These all make a lot of sense. I'll relay the suggestions to our GM and see what he thinks. Thanks!

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-10-02, 06:08 PM
Any other advice? This is the best place I can go for d20 Modern optimization questions, since frankly, the d20 Modern forums aren't that lively. Thanks!:smallsmile: