Eldritch Knight with full magic school choice?

[ToastyTobasco]

Something that has caught my curiosity is what if EK's had free choice of magic schools for their spells instead of being locked in abjuration and evocation. Would this be a game-breaking homebrew or underwhelming due to the low level slots that EK's get?

[Zhorn]

First, I'm assuming we're still talking the restriction is still to the Wizard spell list.
With access to the Magic Initiate feat, or a single level dip into wizard (or even looking at the special spell selection feature for levels 1/8/14/20) mostly serving the same function as your scenario, it wouldn't cause any grand upheavals in balance, plus the limited spell slots would keep reigned in a fair amount.

Personal opinion though, not a fan to removing that restriction (gut feeling, not sure how to put it into words).

There was a thread not too long back were some folk were discussing allowing an EK to choose any two schools, but otherwise function the same. Perhaps start there and see how that works for you?
Evocation and Abjuration seem like the better fit though. EK's are not played as blaster-casters, mostly they're still fighters just supplemented with a sprinkle of magic, which spells like booming blade and shield fit.

[Shuruke]

I don't see how it could make any huge balance issues
Sure an illusion E.K could grab shadow blade but normal E.K can do that.

In the end its really just to gove limited options , wizard has a large list of spells I believe this was Just a way to keep it as sample sized as possible to not have to many broken combos.


In my campaigns A.T and E.K choose what full caster spell ability and list they wanna use and also pick 2 schools they prioritize.

In 3.5 you just needed certain requirements one being the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spell.

For 5e I like idea of their being A.T for all types of magic same with E.K

And it doesn't really step on toes of other classes in my own eyes.

A cha E.K is fun and all but theirs still pros and cons compared to pally

A wis A.T doesn't make ranger obsolete because they both fit their own respective places.

This just allows customizeability and opens things up like trickery cleric A.T or coastal land druid E.K without being m.a.d


Ive had lots of fun with it
Try Your own thing and make sure to let us know how it goes , in the end A.T and E.K will really only be their for players who want to be a fighter or rogue with some casting.

[Trask]

Evocation and Abjuration have some of the best spells anyways from an charop perspective, so I dont think it causes any problems on that end. I suspect the reason they did it was to maintain the Eldritch Knight as a sort of "battlemage" in its identity, and prevent the fighter from becoming to much of a versatile problem solver.

[OverLordOcelot]

Evocation and Abjuration have some of the best spells anyways from an charop perspective, so I dont think it causes any problems on that end. I suspect the reason they did it was to maintain the Eldritch Knight as a sort of "battlemage" in its identity, and prevent the fighter from becoming to much of a versatile problem solver.

I disagree actually, I think transmutation has a much better set of spells, and a set that more fits the role of the EK as a fighter who uses magic to augment his fighting. Things like Magic weapon, longstrider, dragon's breath, enlarge/reduce, darkvision, earthbind, levitate, spider climb, blink, fly, and haste are all really solid for an EK, and IMO fit the concept much better than magic missile or fireball.

[Zhorn]

I disagree actually, I think transmutation has a much better set of spells, and a set that more fits the role of the EK as a fighter who uses magic to augment his fighting. Things like Magic weapon, longstrider, dragon's breath, enlarge/reduce, darkvision, earthbind, levitate, spider climb, blink, fly, and haste are all really solid for an EK, and IMO fit the concept much better than magic missile or fireball.

Not gonna knock Magic Missile as it is a great spell for EK since it doesn't require a roll (most often EK's INT scores are middling at best), but it is accurate to cast doubt on Fireball.
What the Abjuration and Evacation schools do have going for them are the staples like Absorb Elements, Shield, Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade.

The spells you listed are all good choices for the open choices at 8/14/20, but being the majority of them are buff spells it's more preferable to have a support cast it on you to reduce the risk of your concentration being knocked off while in combat and having the spell slot go to waste.

[OverLordOcelot]

What the Abjuration and Evacation schools do have going for them are the staples like Absorb Elements, Shield, Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade.

Booming blade and Green flame blade are cantrips, and there are no school restrictions on cantrips, so they're completely irrelevant to a discussion of EK school choices. That means that both of the staples you listed that are spells are actually abjuration, and the only school that I took issue with was evocation. You're not listing anything that would change my mind about how evocation is a bad fit for the concept and a weak choice mechanically. Also, that combination is not a staple if you're in Adventurer's League, since having both absorb elements from Xanathar's and cantrips from SCAG violates the PHB+1 rule.


The spells you listed are all good choices for the open choices at 8/14/20, but being the majority of them are buff spells it's more preferable to have a support cast it on you to reduce the risk of your concentration being knocked off while in combat and having the spell slot go to waste.

If you want to just play a regular fighter who relies on other people for buffs, sure. If you want to play an Eldritch Knight as a spell casting fighter who uses magic to enhance his combat ability, which seems to be the basic idea of the class, then 'oh get someone else to cast the spell for you' completely misses the point. Also longstrider is a level 1 non concentration spell, so doesn't fit your concentration example.

[Zhorn]

Booming blade and Green flame blade are cantrips, and there are no school restrictions on cantrips, so they're completely irrelevant to a discussion of EK school choices.Bit of a No True Scotsman there, but the case is they are fairly iconic of the EK flavor, and do belong to the evocations school. But if cantrips don't count, then so be it we won't count cantrips :smallconfused:*shrug*


That means that both of the staples you listed that are spells are actually abjuration, and the only school that I took issue with was evocation.Cool, now we know. Previously we had you quoting from someone mentioning both school, and your first words responding to them was just that you disagreed. Honest mistake, will keep in mind moving forward.


You're not listing anything that would change my mind about how evocation is a bad fit for the concept and a weak choice mechanically.Because iconic cantrips perfectly themed for the subclass and play really well off the parent classes main form of attacking plus working very well with the subclass's features and one of the classes preferred feats (warcaster) don't count, yes, gotcha. Gotta keep those goal posts in nice and tight. We're really talking about just spell slots and not the whole schools of magic, fully understood.


Also, that combination is not a staple if you're in Adventurer's League, since having both absorb elements from Xanathar's and cantrips from SCAG violates the PHB+1 rule.Being this thread is about a homebrew/house-ruling EK spell selection and so is already deviating from RAW, I don't see why concerning ourselves with Adventure League rules on PHB+1 should even matter. But If you also want to add that to the scoreboard, by all means, I'll be wrong and you were the one to call me out on it.


If you want to just play a regular fighter who relies on other people for buffs, sure. If you want to play an Eldritch Knight as a spell casting fighter who uses magic to enhance his combat ability, which seems to be the basic idea of the class, then 'oh get someone else to cast the spell for you' completely misses the point. Also longstrider is a level 1 non concentration spell, so doesn't fit your concentration example.Yes and blink and darkvision are both not concentrations spells also. I said 'majority', of which 8 of 11 of the spells listed are concentration spells. I didn't say they were bad choices, I even credited them as being good spells to use. But being as you can only hold onto one concentration spell at a time, you WILL need someone else to buff you if you plan on having more than one up at any one time. Now being a Fighter you'll be proficient in Con saves (with assumable a decent con score to back it up), and you will as an EK most likely take War Caster for advantage on those saves, you will make most of those saves. But being a fighter and most probably in melee range more often than other party members (even as a ranged dex fighter, you'll still be meatshielding for your squishy friends), which means lots of hits leading to lots of saving throws (and good rolls don't last forever). So if there's a choice between who's holding concentration on what, I know I'd feel better knowing someone else was holding onto a 3rd level concentration spell (like haste or fly), and the EK's concentration was spent on a lower level spell slot (especially since spell slots are much more limited as a one-third caster). But that's just me. You do you.

[OverLordOcelot]

Because iconic cantrips perfectly themed for the subclass and play really well off the parent classes main form of attacking plus working very well with the subclass's features and one of the classes preferred feats (warcaster) don't count, yes, gotcha. Gotta keep those goal posts in nice and tight. We're really talking about just spell slots and not the whole schools of magic, fully understood.

Cantrips aren't limited by school. Talking about cantrips when discussing spell school limitations makes no sense, as the EK school restrictions have nothing to do with cantrips, only leveled spells. Keeping the goal posts to 'things affected by limitation X or that would be affected if you changed limitation X' when discussing 'should we discuss limitation X' is just common sense, they don't have anything to do with the topic of the thread or what was being discussed.


Being this thread is about a homebrew/house-ruling EK spell selection and so is already deviating from RAW, I don't see why concerning ourselves with Adventure League rules on PHB+1 should even matter. But If you also want to add that to the scoreboard, by all means, I'll be wrong and you were the one to call me out on it.

I also disagree with claiming that cantrips from one setting-specific book are 'iconic' to a class option in the PHB; people playing with just the core books don't even have those particular cantrips available, and people playing in the common PHB+1 environment don't have access to all of what you're calling 'iconic' abilities at once. But this is a side topic that has nothing to do with the main topic, because like I pointed out cantrips aren't limited by the EK school restrictions in the first place, and changing the schools for spell selection doesn't have any effect on cantrip selection.

[ad_hoc]

JC explained restrictions like those as this:

If you remove the restrictions the game ends up turning into mush. Classes/races/etc. lose identity. Everything ends up feeling the same, without theme.

So yes, it is game breaking but not in a power level sense.

[Shuruke]

JC explained restrictions like those as this:

If you remove the restrictions the game ends up turning into mush. Classes/races/etc. lose identity. Everything ends up feeling the same, without theme.

So yes, it is game breaking but not in a power level sense.

I've read this over a few times and never really wanted to say anything.

But to hell with it I'm gonna say something.

I very much don't agree with that. You can still feel like an E.K knight without evocation spells. If anything making the restrictions loose but asking for it to be added into character depth will make a more unique identity

The Eldritch Knight who despite all their efforts couldn't learn evocation magic and instead had a knack for divination

The dwarf who loved watching bladesong wizards and worked for years to be self taught


To say taking away restrictions makes things mush would mean classes should still have alignment restrictions because giving that kind of freedom would take away from identity.

We don't want to allow a NG arcane trickster who jist wants to do good because it is the right thing to do.

They need to be chaotic and constantly prank and steal and trick everyone

Allowing a Halfling to be the battle ranger spiked armor barbarian because this little guy sees he lives in a tough world and he has to use every advantage he can to survive. His armor simply becomes another weapon in his aresenal.




I believe A lot od restrictions hold DnD back.

There's so much to explore when it comes to making things unique and maling a character that is a complete individual.


So I am gonna respectfully disagree and state that I highly recemend that if a player wants an E.K with a unique identity have them pick their 2 schools etc. Have them have it in their characters history why they chose those schools or how those schools chose them through the weird way the world sometimes works out.
Maybe they were trained by a divination wizard but didn't have the desire to only study magic.
Maybe a fellow E.K using those schools took them up as a pupil.

DND , the worlds it plays in are all about characters who ignore the common restrictions

A non evil Drow who doesn't like the way his people live so he has gone to surface

Tieflings Paladins who love the world and want to do good in it despite how people treat them

A orc who has never raised a sword in their life and instead raised a lute!

The important part of any RPG is for everyone to have fun and to make memories
That is whats important

[Prince Vine]

JC explained restrictions like those as this:

If you remove the restrictions the game ends up turning into mush. Classes/races/etc. lose identity. Everything ends up feeling the same, without theme.

So yes, it is game breaking but not in a power level sense.

That generally sums up my feel for it too. I am one of the biggest offenders in that I tend to not make super-specialized characters so the often all looking very similar.

My bladesinger and eldritch knight are almost indistinguishable in play except for the bladesinger running a lot more illusion and enchantment over evocation. The bladelock is a bit more distict from having less overlap in spell list.

It does become a critical piece of mechanical identity because for any class with spells the spells available can often do more to shape the class than any of the other features (especially you wizards and sorcerers).

I am actually a huge fan of the concept behind the Ravnica backgrounds in their attempt to create a positive choice to encourage thematic spell casting. I find I often think it would have been more interesting if class lists were much smaller and subclasses (or backgrounds) created a large portion of any given casters available spells.

I was even working on a thematic sorcerer rewrite to test this idea, but it does run against the problem that sone spells are SO good/useful it hurts to remove them entirely, any subcategory that has access to them is disproportionately picked and if they are generallt available all the spells in play go back to being the same.