[3.5] Hexer/Archivist/Spells

[Thurbane]

Assuming you use Archivist (HoH p.82) as entry into the Hexer (MotW p.63) PrC, you should be able to add up to 5 Sor/Wiz spells of your choice to your prayer book using the Bonus Spell class feature.

Archivist already has amazing spell access, dumpster diving other classes, Domains and PrCs for divine spells (obviously requiring cooperation from the DM).

So my question is this: what 5 Sor/Wiz spells would you select, that you couldn't get through other methods?

Which 5 spells would you pick, considered there is apparently a staggering amount of other ways to achieve this...

Or, you know, just pick holes in the premise of my question. That's good too.

Cheers - T

[WhamBamSam]

Any Sorcerer spell can theoretically be made divine by a Favored Soul of Bahamut or Tiamat built for the purpose of having it. This may be somewhat setting/DM dependent, but if it's a high magic setting with planar metropolises and the like, I would expect those deities and their followers in conjunction with other Chameleons or Archivists that have gained access to these archives in one way or another over the millennia to have the Sorcerer list rendered generally available.

Any Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy Wizard spell can be added to the list of a Divine Magician cleric.

So you want non-Sorcerer Wizard spells not of those schools and don't appear on other sources that an Archivist can get their grubby little mitts on. Mage's Lubrication Lucubration is Transmutation, and generally handy. The only other spells that Wizards have but Sorcerers don't that I can think of are Mnemonic Enhancer, which is on the Spell Domain, and Spell Engine, which is an Abjuration, but I may be forgetting something.

[Bphill561]

As stated in the previous post, pretty much everything is already Divine one way or another with sufficient sources. Which spells are best to convert is really build dependent and based on what other spell sources are available. The Hexer is great though for getting spells without having to find the scrolls if that is a painful process in your campaign.

Going for the shortest list of spell access possible...

Arcane Disciple from Dragon magazine (issue #311, page 49) is a cleric variant that can add any one bard/sorc/wiz spell to his list at ever level. It cannot be his highest level spell slot, but it would progress into epic for 9th level spells (if you take improved spell capacity). No school restrictions. It is sort of archivist-lite, but a serious downside is the bonus spells are a class feature that would not progress with a PrC.

The Customize Domain Feat from Dragon Magazine (issue #325) lets you change the spells on your domain. It gives examples of what you can put on different domains, but the spells for the Magic domain can be any spell but it is one level higher than normal. The feat requires you to pick spells from any of your class spell lists (not just the cleric list). So a cleric/ wu Jen could put wu jen spells in his magic domain (or any arcane class with reclusive spells).

Chameleon Crafing Feat from Dragon Magazine (issue #349) allows you to craft psionic/magic items. The type of item is based on the feat you use to craft the item, so you can craft a magic scroll based on a psionic power. Since you have to be an arcane or divine caster normally, a psi/divine caster would create divine scrolls. No clue how you would scale the power/spell, I assume it would only work at base caster level since the extra power points for more effect is not the typical caster level variables. Maybe the article has more info in it.

Together that is any divine spell, any bard/sorc/wiz, any arcane up to 8th level not already covered, and base unaugmented psi powers.

I started the below thread to get some clarity on market value of spell books, but ancestral relic + good aligned archivist allows you to pray from spells on you ancestral relic scroll that would be hard to find otherwise. Copy to praybook and repeat.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581586-Ancestral-Relic-Archivists-and-Praybooks&highlight=ancestral+relic

Spell wise I might take greater shadow conjuration (which I don't believe is on any divine list). It lets you copy Shalantha’s Delicate Disk from Lost Empires of Faerun (assuming you have access). Conjuration bypasses the material component so you don't need the standard 200gp per casting when you copy the disk spell. The disk spell lets you store any 5th level or lower spell in it until it is broken. Being an archivist you should have heal as a 5th level spell from adept spell list. I believe there was a cookie monster thread about dealing out shadow cookies some where at some point. That is really the only spell combo that comes to mind at the moment.

[Anthrowhale]

Just to reiterate, it seems feasible to get access to everything except for Wu Jen 9 only spells which seems to consist of only Arboreal Transformation, Internal Fire, and Transcend Mortality.

And there is an argument for these spells as well. If an Archivist scribes a scroll of Internal fire with a Wu Jen donating the spell is it divine or arcane?

[WhamBamSam]

Just to reiterate, it seems feasible to get access to everything except for Wu Jen 9 only spells which seems to consist of only Arboreal Transformation, Internal Fire, and Transcend Mortality.If Dragon Magazine is available for the aforementioned Customize Domain you can definitely get Internal Fire from a customized Fire Domain (which allows for any [Fire] spell), can probably get Arboreal Transformation from a customized Plant Domain (which allows for spells with plants in their name), and might technically be able to get Transcend Mortality from a customized Trickery Domain (which allows for Transmutation spells that change your appearance, which being disintegrated generally does).

[Troacctid]

Any Sorcerer spell can theoretically be made divine by a Favored Soul of Bahamut or Tiamat built for the purpose of having it. This may be somewhat setting/DM dependent, but if it's a high magic setting with planar metropolises and the like, I would expect those deities and their followers in conjunction with other Chameleons or Archivists that have gained access to these archives in one way or another over the millennia to have the Sorcerer list rendered generally available.

Any Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy Wizard spell can be added to the list of a Divine Magician cleric.
I mean if that's how you're playing it, Arcane Disciple Clerics can learn any Sor/Wiz spells.

[Kalkra]

With Alternative Spell Source, you can get 9th level Wu Jen spells. I think a Sha'ir with Wyrm Wizard could do it too.

EDIT: Just looked at Arboreal Transformation. Can you do that on yourself, and then awaken yourself and permanently be a giant animate tree? Maybe not the most practical, but who wouldn't want to be a giant walking tree?

[WhamBamSam]

I mean if that's how you're playing it, Arcane Disciple Clerics can learn any Sor/Wiz spells.I was trying to do it without Dragon Magazine in my first post, but yeah, that trivializes the problem.


With Alternative Spell Source, you can get 9th level Wu Jen spells. I think a Sha'ir with Wyrm Wizard could do it too.I don't know if Alternative Spell Source (or similarly Southern Magician) can produce divine scrolls, but it seems like a Customize Domain cleric can be built to have access to any given Wu Jen spell.

Sha'ir aren't prepared casters so they can't go Wyrm Wizard, and I'm skeptical that whatever other list-expanding mechanism might add a spell to its list would make that spell one of its divine spells rather than arcane.

[Thurbane]

So...anyone wanna take a stab at the actual question, or just keep digging for extra ways for Archivists to get arcane spells?

[Anthrowhale]

So...anyone wanna take a stab at the actual question, or just keep digging for extra ways for Archivists to get arcane spells?

Maybe rephrase? If all sorcerer/wizard spells are on list for some other divine spellcaster then the set of spells you "couldn't get through other methods" is empty.

[WhamBamSam]

So...anyone wanna take a stab at the actual question, or just keep digging for extra ways for Archivists to get arcane spells?Well, you asked for Sor/Wiz spells that an Archivist couldn't get some other way, and the answer is largely that there aren't any. Maybe Mage's Lucubration, assuming Dragon Magazine is disallowed, but now that I think about it, maybe not even that, since it's not really a Sor/Wiz spell, just a Wizard spell.

[Rebel7284]

As folks are pointing out, this is VERY campaign dependent as what Divine spells are accessible and how easily will vary greatly. In the most permissible game world, the question is moot because you already have access to everything, but you are likely not playing in the most permissible world.

Some spells that I would look at:
Celerity (especially if you know Martyr's Blessing)
Arcane Fusion (assuming you know spells in your prayer book)
Wings of Cover
Ice Assassin
Energy Transformation Field
Absorption


So stuff not commonly found on cleric domains and either give you action economy or allow you to do something you couldn't before.

[Thurbane]

Maybe rephrase? If all sorcerer/wizard spells are on list for some other divine spellcaster then the set of spells you "couldn't get through other methods" is empty.

Well, you asked for Sor/Wiz spells that an Archivist couldn't get some other way, and the answer is largely that there aren't any. Maybe Mage's Lucubration, assuming Dragon Magazine is disallowed, but now that I think about it, maybe not even that, since it's not really a Sor/Wiz spell, just a Wizard spell.

Fair enough - OP has been amended.


As folks are pointing out, this is VERY campaign dependent as what Divine spells are accessible and how easily will vary greatly. In the most permissible game world, the question is moot because you already have access to everything, but you are likely not playing in the most permissible world.

Some spells that I would look at:
Celerity (especially if you know Martyr's Blessing)
Arcane Fusion (assuming you know spells in your prayer book)
Wings of Cover
Ice Assassin
Energy Transformation Field
Absorption


So stuff not commonly found on cleric domains and either give you action economy or allow you to do something you couldn't before.

Perfect, thank you! :smallsmile:

[Anthrowhale]

Some spells that I would look at:
Celerity (especially if you know Martyr's Blessing)
Arcane Fusion (assuming you know spells in your prayer book)
Wings of Cover
Ice Assassin
Energy Transformation Field
Absorption

Arcane Fusion and Wings of Cover are sorcerer only spells so good to acquire by other means, but maybe not valid via Hexer which only grants sorcerer/wizard spells.

Maybe one way to think of this is: What are good Sorcerer/Wizard spells not on a fixed divine list without close approximations on a fixed divine list? Measured that way, perhaps:

Nerveskitter (L1) Act first
Wraithstrike (L2) Touch Attack
Heroics (L2) fighter feat
Suffer the Flesh (L2) Con damage for caster level
Mirror Move (L3) visible feat
Anticipate Teleportation (L3) Unambush
Disobedience (L3) False mindcontrol
Greater Might Wallop (L3) melee monster
Celerity (L4) Act now
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (L4) AoE spell resistance
Polymorph(L4) or Draconic Polymorph(L5) monster form
Xorn Movement (L5) Through earth & stone
Energy Transformation Field (L7) Spell factory
Ironguard (L7) Immune to magic metal
Ghostform (L8) Incorporeal
Steal Life (L8) Become younger
Superior Invisibility (L8) All senses, beats See Invisibility
Absorption (L9) Situationally awesome
Hindsight (L9) See past
Ice Assassin (L9) Dup at full power
Mindrape (L9) Reformat memories

[Rebel7284]

Is there any rules that help clarify if Sorcerer/Wizard in this context means Sorcerer and Wizard vs. Sorcerer or Wizard.

[Thurbane]

Is there any rules that help clarify if Sorcerer/Wizard in this context means Sorcerer and Wizard vs. Sorcerer or Wizard.


This spell must come from the wizard/sorcerer spell list and must be of a spell level that the hexer can cast.

Interesting. Considering this is a 3.0 PrC, I don't think there were any exclusively Wizard or exclusively Sorcerer spells back then...actually, scratch that, I'm pretty sure there was Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer and Mordenkainen’s Lucubration now that I think about it.

Other classes use the same/similar wording: Beholder Mage, Mage of the Arcane Order, Sublime Chord, Suel Arcanamach etc.

A strict would say that the Hexer wording prevents getting bonus spells that are exclusive to one or the other, so no Arcane Fusion or similar...