Does a Lv. 15 Gestalt Druid/Sorcerer stand any chance against a Molydeus Demon?

[BlueWitch]

I know what you're thinking:
Druid/Sorcerer DOES NOT SNYERGIZE WELL!!!

And I agree! But we rolled for our Gestalt Classes and this is what I got stuck with.

I won't bore you with the details, but our current DM is something of a bully. A situation where the thread-title comes up may very well happen. (The main DM we have I get along with fine, but this other guy is a jerk off.)

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So, any advice? I think I'm ****ed. I took "Druidic Herbalism" instead of a companion because I'm playing a Neutral/Good character. I wanted to be the peaceful/kind healer of the group, not a bloodthirsty zealot. She's a Half-Orc Half-Nymph (Yeah, its a thing in this campaign) It let me add my CHA modifier to my Saving Throws. Here are my stats btw:

Str 12
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 22
Cha 24

There are some players in my group who might help me out, but it can't be relied on. He seems determined to keep us all separated in this borderline epic level dungeon.

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Feats:
Sorc: Eschew Materials
1st Improved Initiative
3rd Combat Casting
6th Maximize Spell
9th Quicken Spell
12th Empower Spell
15th ???? (Haven't gotten one for this yet)

The session ended as we hit Lv 15, so I can only pick one more.
On my Druid side I have up to one 8th Level Spell. And on my Sorcerer side, only 7th.
Pretty sure Molydei have true seeing don't that? So screwing around with Invisibility is gonna be a no-go.

[Hackulator]

Uh...a level 15 gestalt druid/sorcerer stands a chance against almost anything. I'm confused about the idea that you are complaining about being "stuck with" this combo. You have a tier 1 and tier 2 class gestalted together. The number of options you have is insane, though without knowing your sorcerer spell list it's hard to say exactly what you in particular should be doing. Also, you probably want Natural Spell. Your feat choices leave something to be desired with no method of metamagic cost reduction.

[Menzath]

Uh...a level 15 gestalt druid/sorcerer stands a chance against almost anything....

I second this, and agree that your feat choice is, interesting. Really though even without the gestalt a lvl 15 druid can stomp most CR appropriate fights.

With the right sorcerer spell selection and a little prep you could be close to nigh invulnerable.
And for the most part being a dual caster is much better than being a caster/mundane.

You might want to read eggynacks druid guide.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook

[Bronk]

I know what you're thinking:
Druid/Sorcerer DOES NOT SNYERGIZE WELL!!!

No no, they're amazing.



I won't bore you with the details, but our current DM is something of a bully. A situation where the thread-title comes up may very well happen. (The main DM we have I get along with fine, but this other guy is a jerk off.)

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So, any advice? I think I'm ****ed. I took "Druidic Herbalism" instead of a companion because I'm playing a Neutral/Good character. I wanted to be the peaceful/kind healer of the group, not a bloodthirsty zealot.

Druidic Herbalism? I guess that's pathfinder? I'm not super up on that, but I think if you're that worried your character won't be powerful enough, even with two of the better classes in the game, why limit yourself on purpose? You're going to need that companion.


She's a Half-Orc Half-Nymph (Yeah, its a thing in this campaign)

Feats:
Sorc: Eschew Materials
1st Improved Initiative

I'm not sure how you're working with feats. Feats every third level is a 3.5 thing, Pathfinder is every other level, right? It looks like you're game is playing fast and loose with the rules. Did you just start the game? Anyway, I'd see if you could rework those feats. I'd try to take some kind of flaw to get an additional feat as well.

I'd get a hummingbird familiar for the sorcerer, which grants the Improved Initiative feat, then swap your level one feat out for something else.

Try to get your animal companion back if it isn't too late, take the Exalted Companion feat, have the companion take Vow of Poverty, and go from there.

I'd also recommend looking at some handbooks for specifics on druids... I'll second Eggynacks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook

This one could give you a quick overview as well:

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=940.0

[Torpin]

I know what you're thinking:


I won't bore you with the details, but our current DM is something of a bully. A situation where the thread-title comes up may very well happen. (The main DM we have I get along with fine, but this other guy is a jerk off.)

---------

So, any advice?
no gaming is better than bad gaming is my advice. a jerk dm makes everything unfun

[ezekielraiden]

Ask your DM if you can take the Dynamic Priest feat (from Legend of the Twins, a Dragonlance supplement). It allows a divine caster to use Charisma for every attribute-based variable of their class except saving throw DCs. You can then make up the last bit in a variety of ways (increasing save DCs normally, or finding some way to get Cha to your DCs--Geomancer is a good PrC if you're open to using it on the non-Druid side, since Sorcerers get nothing but familiar progression for their levels). This solves most (if not all) of your non-synergy issues.

Also, if you're going Druid, you should definitely pick up Natural Spell. Especially since you have so many spells to burn through.

[Endarire]

You're effectively an Arcane Hierophant (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471579-The-Arcane-Hierophant-Examined-Arcane-Hierophant-Handbook-(Pyromantic)). (That link is to a handbook for the AH PrC.)

You also got classes that do synergize well if you understand how things work. I strongly considered playing a Druid/Wizard/Arcane Hierophant, but instead went full Druid.

The Fiendish Codex I Molydeus is CR19 and damaging in melee. Wraithstrike will make your meleeing easier if you go that route. You, however, don't need to melee it. You can have minions melee it, or shoot it with spell-likes. It doesn't seem immune to crowd control, like web or solid fog or Evard's black tentacles or freezing fog or grease or stinking cloud. Its touch AC is 17 despite its normal AC being 40.

Another glaring flaw of this foe is no death ward. A party Cleric can use harm on it. You can use enervate on it (preferably heavily metamagicked). It can be hurt by horrid wilting. You should have a contingency handy, perhaps of celerity.

In short, you have options.

[Mnemius]

Last time I played a druid, level 15 was time to take Frozen Wildshape and rock it as a 11-headed cryohydra. My then DM disliked it enough that well, I got hit with a homebrewed breath weapon that involved rolling 24d6 fire, 24d6 cold, 24d6 acid, 24d6 electric and 24d6 sonic when we went into a boss battle against a Tiamat-worshipping Dracolich.

[Crake]

Actually the OP is right, a druid sorc doesn't synergize well. They are individually powerful, and gestalting them together adds those two powers together, but they're both active classes. Sure you can cast double the number of spells per day, and have access to more spells, but ultimately, in each individual round, you're still only going to be casting one (maybe two with quicken) spells per round, so their powers dont add atop one another very well as opposed to say, a wildshaping druid/warblade.

Synergy isn't about raw power, a barbarian totemist for example synergizes better than druid sorc, even if it is weaker in terms of raw strength.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Agree with Natural Spell. Absolutely needed. Action economy cramping your synergy or lack thereof can be worked around by using your Druid slots for long duration buffs for before combat and Healing spells for after combat, and your sorcerer spells for battlefield control and blasting. Be an eagle and rain chaos, and laugh when they try to knock you out of the sky.

Just realized it's a dungeon so the eagle thing doesn't work, but you get my point

[Mr Adventurer]

Get Natural Spell.

Swap out one of your feats for Rapid Metamagic so you can actually use your MM feats on your Sorcerer spells in combat. Also, look at Arcane Spellsurge for your 7th-level Sorcerer spell.

[Eldariel]

Let's see, yeah, Molydeus has True Seeing like all the higher-up Tanar'ri. Fighting it is fairly similar to fighting a Balor. It has a fairly typical SLA package: Quickened Telekinesis, a bunch of SoDs (highest with DC28, but that's Will so you should be broadly speaking fine), Blasphemy (you need some sort of immunity), Greater Dispel Magic, some damage spells, the ability to summon a Marilith and some fairly decent martial prowess. It has decent saves, but its Will and Ref are only decent; you can overcome those on level 15. Martially, it has fairly high AC, DR, and a rather decent melee combat routine but again, you should be able to numerically match it if need be. Overcoming its DR with your natural weapons (assuming you're shapeshifting) is the tricky part; as with all Demons, you need Good and Cold Iron, so you need Align Fang and e.g. +1 Metalline Necklace of Natural Attacks (or use a weapon in a humanoid shape form, either works).

Your most direct route to defeating the thing is of course spellcasting; you need to ward yourself up well enough that you don't just get killed immediately (With Wis 22 and +9 base saves, your Will is probably +28ish with Superior Resistance) - use spell immunities or the like for Blasphemy but you should be set on saves if you've got +5 or higher Resistance. Attacking it with damage spells is largely a poor idea as it has resistances or immunities to everything but Sonic (of course, Sonic Nukes could be nice as could Force), a fair bit of HP and fairly high fast healing. Note, the being relies on magic items to a degree so a Chain Greater Dispel Magic targeting its items can disable them for the duration of the engagement if you plan on meleeing the thing. You can melee it up but then you need protection from the worst of its spells and you need to remember that, like almost all Outsiders, it has Greater Teleport at will so it can disengage at will and go fast heal unless you can lock it up.


In short, it entirely depends on your spell load out (and the sources you're working with). Sorcerer spells in particular are crucial to know; there are plenty of options for an arcane caster of this level to defeat one but whether you have them or not depends. Also, are you using Pathfinder or 3.5 version of the spells? It's crucial in a few points. Your magic items are also of great importance; if you could e.g. up your caster level to 20 and are using 3.5 spells, Giant Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/giantVermin.htm) on a Colossal Scorpion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm) would give you something that's alone more or less a match for it if you can shut down its Greater Teleport. Orange Prism Ioun Stone and Beads of Karma would allow +5 caster level for example. Then you'd just need Dimensional Anchor/Lock and watch the Colossal Scorpion squeeze the life outta it. Well, the Scorpion alone might not quite suffice (it could Grab with just the Claw and keep full attacking it with reasonable chance of success but the Demon has similar durability and offensive statistics as the Scorpion) but you wailing at it and disabling its magic weapon (Dancing weapon can be annoying for a grappler otherwise) combined would certainly do.

[Bronk]

As a sonic spell, Blasphemy could be countered with a silence spell, cast either on it, on yourself (and/or your animal companion and familiar that you share spells with), or on an object that you toss into its area.

[BlueWitch]

No no, they're amazing.



Druidic Herbalism? I guess that's pathfinder? I'm not super up on that, but I think if you're that worried your character won't be powerful enough, even with two of the better classes in the game, why limit yourself on purpose? You're going to need that companion.



I'm not sure how you're working with feats. Feats every third level is a 3.5 thing, Pathfinder is every other level, right? It looks like you're game is playing fast and loose with the rules. Did you just start the game? Anyway, I'd see if you could rework those feats. I'd try to take some kind of flaw to get an additional feat as well.

I'd get a hummingbird familiar for the sorcerer, which grants the Improved Initiative feat, then swap your level one feat out for something else.

Try to get your animal companion back if it isn't too late, take the Exalted Companion feat, have the companion take Vow of Poverty, and go from there.

I'd also recommend looking at some handbooks for specifics on druids... I'll second Eggynacks:


This one could give you a quick overview as well:



Taking this advice! XD
And also, yeah, you are right, I was doing my feats wrong! we just played a regular 3.5 Campaign and I was doing them every third level instead of every other like you pointed out! I re-checked with the other players and DM and you were right. (They all were doing theirs Pathfinder version) Thanks for catching that! If you hadn't I probably would have gone the whole campaign like that!

I was allowed to rework the Familiar and get an animal companion too since the last session was agreed to be rushed.



Agree with Natural Spell. Absolutely needed. Action economy cramping your synergy or lack thereof can be worked around by using your Druid slots for long duration buffs for before combat and Healing spells for after combat, and your sorcerer spells for battlefield control and blasting. Be an eagle and rain chaos, and laugh when they try to knock you out of the sky.

Just realized it's a dungeon so the eagle thing doesn't work, but you get my point

Yeah that one is coming up a lot. Definitely getting Natural Spell!


As a sonic spell, Blasphemy could be countered with a silence spell, cast either on it, on yourself (and/or your animal companion and familiar that you share spells with), or on an object that you toss into its area.

I'll keep this in mind!


Let's see, yeah, Molydeus has True Seeing like all the higher-up Tanar'ri. Fighting it is fairly similar to fighting a Balor. It has a fairly typical SLA package: Quickened Telekinesis, a bunch of SoDs (highest with DC28, but that's Will so you should be broadly speaking fine), Blasphemy (you need some sort of immunity), Greater Dispel Magic, some damage spells, the ability to summon a Marilith and some fairly decent martial prowess. It has decent saves, but its Will and Ref are only decent; you can overcome those on level 15. Martially, it has fairly high AC, DR, and a rather decent melee combat routine but again, you should be able to numerically match it if need be. Overcoming its DR with your natural weapons (assuming you're shapeshifting) is the tricky part; as with all Demons, you need Good and Cold Iron, so you need Align Fang and e.g. +1 Metalline Necklace of Natural Attacks (or use a weapon in a humanoid shape form, either works).

Your most direct route to defeating the thing is of course spellcasting; you need to ward yourself up well enough that you don't just get killed immediately (With Wis 22 and +9 base saves, your Will is probably +28ish with Superior Resistance) - use spell immunities or the like for Blasphemy but you should be set on saves if you've got +5 or higher Resistance. Attacking it with damage spells is largely a poor idea as it has resistances or immunities to everything but Sonic (of course, Sonic Nukes could be nice as could Force), a fair bit of HP and fairly high fast healing. Note, the being relies on magic items to a degree so a Chain Greater Dispel Magic targeting its items can disable them for the duration of the engagement if you plan on meleeing the thing. You can melee it up but then you need protection from the worst of its spells and you need to remember that, like almost all Outsiders, it has Greater Teleport at will so it can disengage at will and go fast heal unless you can lock it up.


In short, it entirely depends on your spell load out (and the sources you're working with). Sorcerer spells in particular are crucial to know; there are plenty of options for an arcane caster of this level to defeat one but whether you have them or not depends. Also, are you using Pathfinder or 3.5 version of the spells? It's crucial in a few points. Your magic items are also of great importance; if you could e.g. up your caster level to 20 and are using 3.5 spells, (giant vermin) on a Colossal Scorpion would give you something that's alone more or less a match for it if you can shut down its Greater Teleport. Orange Prism Ioun Stone and Beads of Karma would allow +5 caster level for example. Then you'd just need Dimensional Anchor/Lock and watch the Colossal Scorpion squeeze the life outta it. Well, the Scorpion alone might not quite suffice (it could Grab with just the Claw and keep full attacking it with reasonable chance of success but the Demon has similar durability and offensive statistics as the Scorpion) but you wailing at it and disabling its magic weapon (Dancing weapon can be annoying for a grappler otherwise) combined would certainly do.

Thanks for this in depth look! Very helpful and detailed! I'm definitely going to take this advice! Especially some more Ioun Beads and better selected spells on the Sorcerer side.

They are letting me re-work it til our session on Tuesday so this gives me plenty of time to think about what to do.

Thanks for all the advice, fellas! Some of you really know what you're talking about!