CoStrahd: Paladin multiclass to Sorcerer or Warlock?

[jdolch]

Hi guys.

My Group is playing Curse of Strahd.
I am a Level 6 Devotion-Paladin with STR(16), DEX(12), CON(17), INT(8), WIS(14), CHA(20).
So i have just gotten Aura Of Protection(+5) which is very nice and already saved my bacon. But this is basically as far as I want to go in Paladin. Maybe(!) another Level for Charm Immunity, maybe.

So the question now is: to multiclass into what? I have 3 or maybe 4 levels left. I am considering both Warlock (probably Hexblade) and/or Sorcerer (probably Divine Soul). My Group consists of 1 Cleric, 1 Warlock, 1 Barbarian, 1 Rogue.

Flavor is something that I will decide on separately but what would be the mechanically strongest way to proceed for these remaining 4 levels?

Maybe there is another option as well, that i am overlooking.

I am very interested on your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you.

[gjf2a]

My Group is playing Curse of Strahd.
I am a Level 6 Devotion-Paladin with STR(16), DEX(12), CON(17), INT(8), WIS(14), CHA(20).
So i have just gotten Aura Of Protection(+5) which is very nice and already saved my bacon. But this is basically as far as I want to go in Paladin. Maybe(!) another Level for Charm Immunity, maybe.


I have no particular opinion on what to do thereafter, but I highly recommend Paladin 7 for this adventure. Charm Immunity is huge when you are dealing with a vampire. A Vampire's charm is powerful enough to make the recipient a willing victim of a bite attack. This could save not just you but much of your party as well!

[CTurbo]

Hi guys.

My Group is playing Curse of Strahd.
I am a Level 6 Devotion-Paladin with STR(16), DEX(12), CON(17), INT(8), WIS(14), CHA(20).
So i have just gotten Aura Of Protection(+5) which is very nice and already saved my bacon. But this is basically as far as I want to go in Paladin. Maybe(!) another Level for Charm Immunity, maybe.

So the question now is: to multiclass into what? I have 3 or maybe 4 levels left. I am considering both Warlock (probably Hexblade) and/or Sorcerer (probably Divine Soul). My Group consists of 1 Cleric, 1 Warlock, 1 Barbarian, 1 Rogue.

Flavor is something that I will decide on separately but what would be the mechanically strongest way to proceed for these remaining 4 levels?

Maybe there is another option as well, that i am overlooking.

I am very interested on your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you.



Before 742 people show up to tell you to go Hexblade, I want to tell you that I think staying pure Paladin is easily the strongest thing you could possibly do. You literally get great stuff at every level.

So for me, 100 out of 100 times, I would stay Paladin til the end. It's just such a strong class. Possibly the strongest in the game.

[jdolch]

Before 742 people show up to tell you to go Hexblade, I want to tell you that I think staying pure Paladin is easily the strongest thing you could possibly do. You literally get great stuff at every level.

So for me, 100 out of 100 times, I would stay Paladin til the end. It's just such a strong class. Possibly the strongest in the game.

I like Paladin (or i wouldn't play it) but i find it really hard to make a good case for staying Paladin 8-10 (7 is debatable) versus going Sorcerer, since that gives you such a huge boost to your core abilities. It lets you smite more often and use your second action for another attack that lets you smite again if you want.

CoS just isn't long enough. You don't get to IDS. And both Sorcerer 1-3 and Warlock 1-3 are so front loaded with goodness that it's hard to take the mediocre Paladin 8-10 over them. Especially since both MC paths are shock full of Synergies.

Can you tell me more concrete why you would pick Paladin 8-10 over that?

[CTurbo]

I like Paladin (or i wouldn't play it) but i find it really hard to make a good case for staying Paladin 8-10 (7 is debatable) versus going Sorcerer, since that gives you such a huge boost to your core abilities. It lets you smite more often and use your second action for another attack that lets you smite again if you want.

CoS just isn't long enough. You don't get to IDS. And both Sorcerer 1-3 and Warlock 1-3 are so front loaded with goodness that it's hard to take the mediocre Paladin 8-10 over them. Especially since both MC paths are shock full of Synergies.

Can you tell me more concrete why you would pick Paladin 8-10 over that?

Level 7 gets you and friends Charm immunity. This is huge and should be a no brainer.
Level 8 gets you an ASI/feat. Many feats are completely awesome for you. I don't know your setup, but Inspiring Leader, Lucky, Warcaster, Magic Initiate:Warlock/Sorcerer, or Sentinel would be huge for you and depending on how your weapon setup, GWM, PAM, or Shield Master would also be huge. Even a simple +2 Str would be great.
Level 9 gets you 3rd level spells(and bigger smites), and the Paladin has some great spells. Aura of Vitality, Beacon of Hope, Dispel Magic, and Revivify are all great, and Elemental Weapon and Crusader's Mantle are no slouches either.
Level 10 gets you and friends immunity to fear which is great.
Level 11 is at least a possibility and Improved Divine Smite is worth the wait.

[Alucard89]

I would go Divine Sorcerer now and stay on Paladin 6. While Immunity to Charm is great for party members, it's not really that necessary for you. You have proficiency in WIS save and aura +5. Chances to charm you are already very low. And while giving other immunity to charm sounds good on paper- remember it's only 10ft from you.

From real gameplay I can tell you that unless you have 2 more melee party members- in most of the time rest of your party will be outside of your Aura. Especially range character, Warlock and casters as they don't really want to stand too close to front line. And even your melee buddy many times will have to focus on some other party of battlefield or assist your backline etc. running our of your Aura.

I would skip level 7 and go straight Divine Sorc to level 5. So you would be Paladin 6/Divine Soul 5.

And only then I would decide if you want dip into Hexblade for SAD CHA or not. You may find till then a Giant Belt or Ogre Gloves so there will be no need for SAD CHA and it's better to progress faster as Sorcerere for faster slots, more Sorc Points etc.

Of course each to his own but from real-gameplay scenario I found that unless whole party hugs you all the time- it's not like Aura is 100% on everyone all the time, especially if you are solo front liner or one of only 2 and rest of party stays behind you (which is many times wise, considering enemy AOE effects or enemies with Reach).

If you will really see that your party was Charmed so many times - you can always take that 7th level later. But imo immunity to charm sounds better on papaer that in real-gameplay. Sorcerer levels will give you better tools faster.

[Angelalex242]

For Strahd, don't bother multiclassing. Level 10 Paladin will serve you better. Charm Immunity is big, Fear Immunity is pretty nice too.

[sophontteks]

No spoilers, but any multiclass you do is making you weaker in CoS. Do what you want but you've been warned!

[jdolch]

No spoilers, but any multiclass you do is making you weaker in CoS. Do what you want but you've been warned!

I appreciate the "No Spoilers" Attitude but that was vague to the point of being deceivingly pointless. Can you at least specify "Why"? Because it weakens your progression or because of some specific mechanic ?

[Corran]

I appreciate the "No Spoilers" Attitude but that was vague to the point of being deceivingly pointless. Can you at least specify "Why"? Because it weakens your progression or because of some specific mechanic ?
Haven't played CoS, so I can't spoil anything even if I wanted to. But if I had to guess, I think it's because you will need the two auras and spells like dispel magic and daylight more than whatever a few caster levels can get you. If the campaign uses certain types of enemies, try to include their vulnerabilities into the equation before you decide how to advance your character. Same goes for your group, meaning try to see how your character can best complement the other characters. Character optimizion means little if you are not aiming it at making your group as effective as possible.

[gjf2a]

Haven't played CoS, so I can't spoil anything even if I wanted to. But if I had to guess, I think it's because you will need the two auras and spells like dispel magic and daylight more than whatever a few caster levels can get you. If the campaign uses certain types of enemies, try to include their vulnerabilities into the equation before you decide how to advance your character. Same goes for your group, meaning try to see how your character can best complement the other characters. Character optimization means little if you are not aiming it at making your group as effective as possible.

I'd like to echo this. With a cleric and a barbarian, you have two other melee combatants in your group. And even if someone is outside your 10' aura it is highly possible that they will pass through it when charmed by the vampire, especially if you choose to move toward them to explicitly break the charm.

[Citan]

Hi guys.

My Group is playing Curse of Strahd.
I am a Level 6 Devotion-Paladin with STR(16), DEX(12), CON(17), INT(8), WIS(14), CHA(20).
So i have just gotten Aura Of Protection(+5) which is very nice and already saved my bacon. But this is basically as far as I want to go in Paladin. Maybe(!) another Level for Charm Immunity, maybe.

So the question now is: to multiclass into what? I have 3 or maybe 4 levels left. I am considering both Warlock (probably Hexblade) and/or Sorcerer (probably Divine Soul). My Group consists of 1 Cleric, 1 Warlock, 1 Barbarian, 1 Rogue.

Flavor is something that I will decide on separately but what would be the mechanically strongest way to proceed for these remaining 4 levels?

Maybe there is another option as well, that i am overlooking.

I am very interested on your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you.
Hey ;)

Well, I don't think there is a "mechanically strongest". It all depends on what you feel you are lacking, or what kind of aspect of Paladin you want to focus on.

- Pure Paladin: as others said, lvl 7 aura is plenty interesting (seemingly especially for CoS, don't know the campaign myself though). ASI could be spent on Inspiring Leader (great boost to party resilience if your party is good at getting short rests) or Resilient: Constitution (extra HP and you'll never lose concentration on Bless, smite spell or otherwise). And level 9 brings Aura of Vitality and Elemental Weapon.

- Warlock or Sorcerer: both get access to Darkness, Shadow Blade, Shield.

- Warlock: brings you a great control cantrip in Eldricht Blast + Repelling Blast + Grasp of Hadar. Also brings short rest slots, which can be great, again, if your party manages to get short rests regularly.
Plus you get interesting Pact (Blade for Improved Pact Weapon, Tome for Rituals, Chain for improved Familiar, instead of Grasp of Hadar Invocation).

- Sorcerer: can let you boost party efficiency outside combat (Subtle Enhance Ability / Invisibility), help party survive combat (Extended Aid), or simply facilitate your own action economy using Quicken (IF you are not interested in using smite spells or Shadow Blade since those already use bonus action).

IF...
1. You are sure you don't want to stay Paladin.
2. You are sure your party knows how to grab several short rests (OR you don't care about Metamagic shenanigans)...

1. yes + 2. yes -> Go Warlock 3-4.
2. yes + 2. no -> Otherwise, I'd suggest you try and get most of the best of both worlds: Hexblade Warlock 1 + Sorcerer 3, with choice of archetype and metamagic suiting your taste (I'm too lazy to put yet another wall of text about Metamagic greatness, plz refer to sorcerer-related threads in forum ;)).

[sophontteks]

I appreciate the "No Spoilers" Attitude but that was vague to the point of being deceivingly pointless. Can you at least specify "Why"? Because it weakens your progression or because of some specific mechanic ?
You are underestimating the abilities a paladin gets at levels 7-11 and overestimating how much you'll gain with 2-3 levels of sorcerer/warlock. This multiclass is giving you a bunch of trinkets and you are losing some very powerful stuff in exchange. I'd recommend against it just because its costing you your level 3 spells alone, but everything along the way is big too: ASIs, fear immunity, another aura, an extra 1d8 on your attacks, more HP. This stuff is not mediocre and its worth more then a better ranged cantrip and a single use of quicken per day.

[Corran]

If your DM pays attention to spell components, you either have to pick up warcaster or change from s&b to using a two hander, if you want to use shield and absorb elements with your reaction (or negotiate sth else with the DM). Bottom line, check if you *really* need warcaster before you multiclass into a caster.

[1Pirate]

If you're going to do this, I'd recommend Warlock. It comes online sooner. I won't dispute the coolness of Metamagic, but if you start your dip now, that's not going to come online for another 3 levels, and you may not get it until just as you're facing Strahd. One level of Hexblade(I know, I know) lets you add that sweet Cha bonus of yours to your attack, the curse, a good ranged cantrip, and you still get Shield you can use with your Paladin slots.

Charm Immunity is pretty big in CoS. You personally can probably get away without it since your wisdom saves are decent, but it could be a life saver for some of your non-proficient allies(as an aside, I think Charm Immunity is vastly underrated because a lot of DMs unconsciously metagame around it, so players often don't see it used).

As others have mentioned, there is the warcaster issue which you may not be able to do anything about until level 10.

[djreynolds]

If you go and grab sorcerer, you can take the paladin's protection from evil and twin this.

You could twin this on 2 other party members, which gives them immunity to fear and charm from evil types.

For you with a 14 in wisdom, proficiency and charisma... It's around +10 or +11 for your wisdom saves. You should be good.

Good luck

[Spore]

Paladin 7 or 8, then you could go into Warlock. More often than however, the adventure ends before your build comes into its own. I'd say only switch if you have a particular RP reason.

[Mitsu]

Ask your DM what is the level you are supposed to reach at the end of campaign.

If it's around level 10- I would go 2 Paladin/8 Divine Sorcerer or 2 Paladin/8 Hexblade.

First one gives you way more options, especially in AOE department (fireball, hypnotic pattern, Spirit Guardians are all excellent spells). Second one (Hexadin) gives you short rest smites, but less smites per fight than Sorcerer (Sorcadin) but you get spammable single target burst cantrip with.

I would personally go Sorcadin, you get more slots, more versatility and a lot of great self buffs with this combo (Haste, Absorb Elements, Aid, Shield etc) that you can also use with meta-magic.


If this was custom campaign or series of campaigns where you could finish on level 17-20 with your character- then I would go 6/14 Sorcadin or 2/18 Hexadin.

[jdolch]

I'd like to echo this. With a cleric and a barbarian, you have two other melee combatants in your group. And even if someone is outside your 10' aura it is highly possible that they will pass through it when charmed by the vampire, especially if you choose to move toward them to explicitly break the charm.

Does the Aura break a Charm that has already taken hold?


Charm Immunity is pretty big in CoS. You personally can probably get away without it since your wisdom saves are decent, but it could be a life saver for some of your non-proficient allies(as an aside, I think Charm Immunity is vastly underrated because a lot of DMs unconsciously metagame around it, so players often don't see it used).

How much it would benefit someone else is a little incalculable. I personally have proficiency in WIS saving throws, a +5 AoP and advantage vs charm from my Fey Ancestry. So that is +10 and Advantage vs Charm.


As others have mentioned, there is the warcaster issue which you may not be able to do anything about until level 10.


If your DM pays attention to spell components, you either have to pick up warcaster or change from s&b to using a two hander, if you want to use shield and absorb elements with your reaction (or negotiate sth else with the DM). Bottom line, check if you *really* need warcaster before you multiclass into a caster.

I already picked up Warcaster at level 4 in preparation of a later multiclass.


You are underestimating the abilities a paladin gets at levels 7-11 and overestimating how much you'll gain with 2-3 levels of sorcerer/warlock.

I am currently in the Process of making a Spreadsheet with all Pros and Cons so as to give me an adequate, objective basis.


If you go and grab sorcerer, you can take the paladin's protection from evil and twin this.

You could twin this on 2 other party members, which gives them immunity to fear and charm from evil types.

Good Idea, will look into it.


Paladin 7 or 8, then you could go into Warlock. More often than however, the adventure ends before your build comes into its own. I'd say only switch if you have a particular RP reason.

Well, CoS ends at 10. So it's pretty calculable where you end up.


Ask your DM what is the level you are supposed to reach at the end of campaign.

If it's around level 10- I would go 2 Paladin/8 Divine Sorcerer or 2 Paladin/8 Hexblade.

First one gives you way more options, especially in AOE department (fireball, hypnotic pattern, Spirit Guardians are all excellent spells). Second one (Hexadin) gives you short rest smites, but less smites per fight than Sorcerer (Sorcadin) but you get spammable single target burst cantrip with.

I would personally go Sorcadin, you get more slots, more versatility and a lot of great self buffs with this combo (Haste, Absorb Elements, Aid, Shield etc) that you can also use with meta-magic.


If this was custom campaign or series of campaigns where you could finish on level 17-20 with your character- then I would go 6/14 Sorcadin or 2/18 Hexadin.

All good points, but I can't go back to Paladin 2. Not sure if I would, but i can't.

Thanks all of you for your input.

[gjf2a]

Does the Aura break a Charm that has already taken hold?

Rules as written is ambiguous. Rules as intended, according to Jeremy Crawford, is yes, it does break the existing charm (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/31/does-aura-of-devotion-suspend-an-already-charmed-ally/).

[Mitsu]

All good points, but I can't go back to Paladin 2. Not sure if I would, but i can't.

Thanks all of you for your input.

If you can't change then just go staright Paladin with 1 level dip on Hexblade. Since you got Aura now, just dip 1 level Hexblade so your attach stat is 20 too. And just finish with Paladin. Since you say it ends at level 10, there is no need to rush for Improved Divine Smite so you can dip with no problem now.

1 Level Hexblade dip is already broken so no worries, it will serve you well :)

[jdolch]

Ok, so i made a comparison Spreadsheet.

Here are some things regarding Devotion Paladin 7-10 vs Divine Soul Sorcerer.

By staying Paladin at level 10 you have:


avg. 103 HP
one additional Feat/ASI (since you don't need Warcaster)
2 Oath Spells (Beacon of Hope, Dispel Magic)
Aura of Devotion (10ft / Charm Immunity)
Aura of Courage (10ft / Fear Immunity)
Spells Known: Paladin 10
Spell Slots: 4 3 2


You also get Access to Level 3 Paladin Spells, of which there are 10. But keep in mind that I only have 2x Level3 Spell slots, which are most likely earmarked for Divine Smite.

I underlined the Spells that i remember as being good off the top of my head.

(* marks the 6 our Cleric has Access to)



Aura of Vitality
Blinding Smite
*Create Food and Water
Crusader's Mantle
*Daylight
*Dispel Magic
Elemental Weapon
*Magic Circle
*Remove Curse
*Revivify




By going Divine Soul Sorcerer at Level 10 you have:


avg. 93 HP
Favoured by the Gods (Roll 2D4 once a Day to bolster an Attack or Saving Throw)
+1 Extra Spell (depending on Alignment: Cure Wounds/ Inflict Wounds / Bless / Bane / Protection from Evil and Good)
5 Cantrips (Sorcerer and Cleric Lists)
5 Sorcery Points
2 Metamagics (Quickened Spell, +1 more)
Spells Known: Sorcerer and Cleric 5, Paladin 8, Extra 1
Spell Slots: 4 3 3 1


You also get Access to the Sorcerer and Cleric Level 0-2 Spells, of which there are .... many. Like Holy Moly.




Sorcerer Cantrips

Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Friends
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation
Ray of Frost
Shocking Grasp
True Strike
Controlflarnes (transmutation)
Createbonfire (conjuration)
Frostbite (evocation)
Gust (transmutation)
Infestation (conjuration)
Mold earth (transmutation)
Shape water (transmutation)
Thunderclap (evocation)
Booming Blade
Green Flame Blade
Lightning Lure
Sword Burst


Cleric Cantrips

Guidance
Light
Mending
Resistance
Sacred Flame
Spare the Dying
Thaumaturgy
Toll the dead (necromancy)
Word of radiance (evocation)


Sorcerer Level 1

Burning Hands
Charm Person
Chromatic Orb
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Feather Fall
Fog Cloud
Jump
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Ray of Sickness
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep
Thunderwave
Witch Bolt
Catapult (transmutation)
Chaosbolt (evocation)
Earth tremor (evocation)
lceknife (conjuration)


Cleric Level 1

Bane
Bless
Command
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Guiding Bolt
Healing Word
Inflict Wounds
Protection from Evil and Good
Purify Food and Drink
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith
Ceremony (abjuration,ritual)


Sorcerer Level 2

Alter Self
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Cloud of Daggers
Crown of Madness
Darkness
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enhance Ability
Enlarge/Reduce
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Phantasmal Force
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Shatter
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Web
Aganazzar’s scorcher (evocation)
Dragon's breath (transmutation)
Dustdevil (conjuration)
Earthbind (transmutation)
Maximilian’s earthen grasp (transmutation)
Mindspike (divination)
Pyrotechnics (transmutation)
Shadowblade (illusion)
Snilloc’s snowball swarm (evocation)
Warding wind (evocation)


Cleric Level 2

Aid
Augury
Blindness/Deafness
Calm Emotions
Continual Flame
Enhance Ability
Find Traps
Gentle Repose
Hold Person
Lesser Restoration
Locate Object
Prayer of Healing
Protection from Poison
Silence
Spiritual Weapon
Warding Bond
Zone of Truth

[jdolch]

Haven't played CoS, so I can't spoil anything even if I wanted to. But if I had to guess, I think it's because you will need the two auras and spells like dispel magic and daylight more than whatever a few caster levels can get you. If the campaign uses certain types of enemies, try to include their vulnerabilities into the equation before you decide how to advance your character. Same goes for your group, meaning try to see how your character can best complement the other characters. Character optimizion means little if you are not aiming it at making your group as effective as possible.

Very good point. One thing though that often gets misinterpreted. The 'Daylight' Spell does NOT create sunlight. It doesn't do **** against Vampires. Especially in CoS the Party is in the Realm of Dread, whose Sunlight (more Twilight, really) isn't Harmful to Vampires. It's more like the Shadowfell, in that it's ambient Light doesn't come from the Sun. But even in normal games 'Daylight' doesn't create Sunlight. There are special, higher-level Spells that do that, like 'Sunburst'