Optimizing a Human Arcana Cleric

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

In Man_Over_Game's awesome personality quiz I was highly recommended to play a Human Arcana Cleric (that or a Lore Bard). I have no experience with playing (or building) Clerics - therefore the question:

How would you optimize a Human Arcana Cleric?

What stat focus (standard array) would you recommend? Feats? Spells?

Human can be standard or variant I assume. Other than that I would slightly prefer to stay mostly out of melee range, but I don't want to be just support I would also like to be the hero sometimes. No party for this freak yet.

Any ideas?

Edit: And if you have any multiclass recommendations, that would be fine as well...

[Shuruke]

I personally like the idea of optimizing around spell breaker 6th level feature
Being a templar like character from dragonage.

You serve a god of magic and they have charged you with hunting mages who use magic for evil and harmful reasons

Vhuman mage slayer

Take Gfb
Fire bolt (ranged option)

Up to you on of you wanna use str dex or max wis

Id have high wisdom take magic intiate at 4 for druid Shil , druidcraft and for 1st level probably entangle because its good on low str enemies.


Go at least 8 cleric to get wisdom on damage with gfb
This will allow either 2x wisdom as damage or +mod+wis with the attack. And twice mod to the bounce.

I personally would either not MC
Or only MC 3

MC options

I personally like idea of fighter
I would do samurai cuz temp hp is nice
Take dueling or armor style
I'd do armor

Use a shield for 2 a.c.
This would allow +3 a.c. with armor style and shield. +5 with shield of faith if you go for that(I would prob mainly use conc on bless personally.)

This is good because action surge could allow for fun action surge dispel magics if you wish and the counter spell didnt work.

Rogue inquisitor
This for 3 level dip would give you alot
Especially if you go the dex route
Expertise is always nice to have
And unless your using slots for spiritual weapon your bonus action will be free.

Palladin
This is a little on mad sad but if you have the 13 str and good cha having a combat option for your channel divinities can be nice
I would say devotion. Get the cha to hit could be nice if you are doing high mental stat build with only 13 str for heavy armor etc.


Druid
This could be really good
Would save you the magic intiate feat in wis build
And I looove the idea of a shepherd druid Arcana cleric who as their creature they protect its a familiar option XD.

Shepherd totems would be really good and the options are always noce that a 2 level dip in this gives




My arcane cleric build I did was a Orc from Volo who started fighter for heavy armor and armor style and I built as a great sword user
Was fun mainly did booming blade instead of gfb
Was nice to hit for 2d6+1d8+10+str+wis
At level 9
Only went to level 10 but I had a blast
Dm had us start with feat so I had GWM from start and did two asi one for str one for wis.

Second to last fight I crit the necromancer oath breaker palladin friend and nearly 1 shot him so that was cool.

[CTurbo]

Like all Clerics, you want a good AC, maxed Wis, and some way to boost concentration checks. You don't NEED to multiclass at all, but starting Fighter at level 1 gets you heavy armor and Con save proficiencies. Heavy armor is only +1 AC over medium armor so it's not THAT big of a deal to have.

I would probably go vhuman and stick to Medium Armor and take Green Flame Blade as your Wizard cantrip. Take Spell Sniper(Booming Blade) as your free feat and use a Whip for 10ft reach on those two spells. At level 4 take Warcaster, and then bump Wis at 8 and again at 12. I would dump Str, Int, and Cha and Prioritize Wis>Con=Dex

[LudicSavant]

A versatile and powerful tank build originally provided for someone else's request:


Okay. Here's one that's pretty similar to one we played in a long-running campaign from low to high levels.

Example Arcana Cleric build:
Azorius VHuman Arcana Cleric 1-20
Stat Priorities: Wis > Con > Dex 14, other stats to taste
ASIs: War Caster, Magic Initiate (Shillelagh/Thorn Whip/Absorb Elements), Max Wis, Resilient (Constitution), Lucky
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Word of Radiance, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Mending, Light
Gear to look for: Basically you want anything that raises your defenses, like AC/saves. Also, getting a Strength-boosting item is a popular alternative to taking Shillelagh, since they're relatively easy to come by in many campaigns (including AL, apparently) and also open up shove/grapple options.

Build itself is pretty simple, and works well at all levels. But as is often the case with caster builds, just posting the build doesn't really tell you why it's so effective. The trick is knowing what to do with it, because these guys get a lot of tools. They know over a hundred spells and I don't have the time to go over every single one of them and all their interactions and combos and situational uses and such. I mean, I could dedicate an entire thread to discussing some of these single spells. But I'll try to at least give an idea of the sort of things you're bringing to the table here.

So here are just a few examples of what they can do:

1) Booming Blade is a lot more dangerous than usual from these guys, because Potent Spellcasting adds your Wisdom on both the melee attack and the rider, and because Warcaster means that walking outside of the Cleric's threatened area to go punch someone else triggers the rider and then another Booming Blade and then another rider too. This works out to a significant chunk of damage at any level, especially considering it's not all of your action economy (you've still got your Concentration, your bonus action, and possibly minions).

While it doesn't "force" an enemy to stay still, it punishes them severely for not doing so. If they opt to walk over to someone with a couple less points of AC, the benefit of this is offset by living for less rounds and therefore being able to take fewer harmful actions. And staying still has numerous disadvantages of its own (like getting stuck in hazards, having Disadvantage on ranged attack rolls, being unable to adjust line of effect, etc).

2) Spellbreaker is antimagic gold, and there's an awful lot of things you can do with it.

For example, casting Regenerate provides an hour long, Concentrationless buff that gradually heals over 600 hp throughout its long duration, helping to keep ally hp topped off between combats and picking up allies off the 0hp gate at the start of their turn without so much as a bonus action cost. But with Spellbreaker, it also removes a spell effect you don't like every round, again with no action cost from you. It’s like an hour long “every turn get a mini Healing Word / Dispel Magic at the start of your turn.”

For another example, Mass Healing Word is kinda like a bonus action Dispel Magic that targets your whole party and, as a bonus, also heals people a bit and picks them up off the 0hp gate.

For another example, Heal is an effective burst heal that also removes a variety of negative effects.

3) If you want even more antimagic, you can pick up Counterspell from the Azorius background from GGtR.

4) Warding Bond is a great 1 hour, Concentrationless buff that gives an ally +1 to AC and all saves (so, basically like a ring of protection. Or to put it another way, imagine if Divine Shield exchanged 1 point of its AC bonus for +1 to all saves, then lasted 60 times as long and didn't take Concentration), and that's before it even does its primary job: Damage splitting. Also, unlike some other damage split mechanics in 5e, the damage you take on your end can be mitigated by your own resistance (such as from Absorb Elements).

It's not the only good Concentrationless buff you have either. Freedom of Movement prevents all kinds of things for an hour, and Death Ward is an 8 hour one that gives the target an extra death gate. Sanctuary is a ranged bonus action that requires enemies to make a Wisdom save to target a creature at all and only costs a level 1 spell slot (and can interfere with action choices less than you might expect if you're attentive to action order and the like; you can use it at the end of your turn right after hitting someone, and simply maintaining spells you already cast like Spirit Guardians doesn’t end it). There's even stuff like, say, an upcast Continual Flame giving protection against magical darkness with an unlimited duration (since Darkness can't darken areas illuminated by a spell of 3rd level or higher, period). These things add up.

5) Minions! You can create and maintain a bunch of animated dead on your days off, who can then do things like spam grapples at people or just stand in front of allies to grant them cover against ranged attacks or block the movement of melee attackers, while firing ranged attacks of their own. They can also do things like administer potions to teammates, per the DMG rules. Don't forget that you can give general commands so that you don't have to use a bonus action every turn.

More situationally, you can also use things like Planar Ally and Planar Binding to contract bigger fish.

6) Spirit Guardians lasts 10 minutes, which is long enough for numerous encounters in a dungeoneering situation (meaning that it'll often already be up when a fight starts). SG not only creates a large zone of hurt that leaves your actions free on every round after you cast it, it also halves the speed of everything in that area without a save (and stacks with Difficult Terrain and the like). For melee foes, this can straight up prevent them from being able to reach your party. For ranged ones, it limits their firing lines (such as for firing around cover) and ability to kite.

7) Your lack of reliance on your Action to be threatening (thanks to powerful Concentration effects, bonus action tools like Spiritual Weapon, punishing reactions, and minions), you can totally do stuff like use the Dodge action if you need to, and still keep your DPR relevant. I've seen these guys just jump into a crowd of enemies with a Spirit Guardians they cast 3 encounters ago and use Dodge until they all melt (mook swarms tend to have a pretty hard time hitting a decent AC with Disadvantage). This is but one of many examples of how these guys are versatile and adaptable with their action economy.

As I put it in another thread:



Our sixth level cleric waded into a pack of gnolls using Dodge action and Spirit Guardians. It was amazing how often that disadvantage thing caused a miss. Two rounds later, the remaining gnolls were trying their best to flee. (Needless to say, our other party members were also attacking, but that aura of angry spirits was very effective).
He had to make one con save, and made it easily.
Mathematically, a half-decent AC and Disadvantage makes it almost impossible for low-attack bonus enemies to hit you, which makes Spirit Guardians + Dodge a very effective way of taking out swarms.

For example, here's a gnoll's chance of hitting with Disadvantage at various ACs:

AC 19: 6.25% (1 in 16 attacks hit)
AC 21: 2.25% (1 in ~44.44 attacks hit)
AC 23: 0.25% (1 in 400 attacks hit)

8) You have tons of CC spells. For example, you can use Banishment to lock a dangerous target out of the fight while you clean up everyone else. Not to mention that Divine Word is like an AoE, bonus action, instantaneous Banishment against celestials, elementals, fey, and fiends (regardless of their hp) and also debilitates mooks or wounded foes with no save. Hold X is basically a death sentence if it lands (because of the autocrits). Command is a rare no-Concentration CC at low levels that can affect multiple targets if upcast. Arcane Abjuration and Turn Undead are effectively extra Concentrationless CC spell slots, too (up to 3/short rest).

9) Big Damn Wizard Spells. This part only comes online at level 17+ so I won't spend too much time on it, but you get a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level Wizard spell known, and there are some golden choices on the Wizard list for your purposes, like Contingency or Foresight.

10) Your AoE damage isn't bad at all. Spirit Guardians just sort of passively melts things, but if that's not enough you've got options like Potent Spellcasting boosted Green-Flame Blade or Word of Radiance, or spells. Sure, stuff like Flame Strike and Fire Storm might not be the best AoEs around, but it's still enough to kill off swarms when stacked with Spirit Guardians and it's a heckuva lot more AoE potential than most martials get.

11) As long as you're up, actually taking allies out of the fight is hard. Even if enemies can get at your allies through all of your CC and pressure and buffs and such, allies at 0hp just pop right back up and many status effects just get cleansed. Even an ally who actually dies will get popped back up by Revivify while things like SG/SW/minions keep ticking away.

12) A high perception score at the front of the party's marching order helps to protect against Surprise, traps, and the like. Also has access to a variety of divinations and "information wars" abilities.

13) An important thing to understand is that you're never really doing just one of these things at a time. Your action economy is great. Just be careful to budget your resources properly for however many encounters a day you expect to fight (you should have enough for 6-8 encounter days if you're doing it right).

Enjoy! :durkon:

Edit: Some more commentary from another thread that you might find helpful:


A proper Arcana Cleric Tank build can do high melee damage (both to single targets and AoEs), and punish people pretty harshly for moving. One of the major reasons for their unusually high damage is because the synergy between the wizard melee cantrips and Potent Spellcasting allows them to add Wisdom to damage multiple times. This was even confirmed in Sage Advice.

Try combining that with the likes of Shillelagh, War Caster, Spirit Guardians, Dodge, Spiritual Weapon, and other such things. Enemies trying to get away from you tend to explode. Enemies trying to stay near you tend to explode. You tend to not take damage either way. And moving past you is difficult because you create a big old mobile area of cover and difficult terrain and angry smiting.

But that's not all. You also can remove crippling status effects on the entire party as a side effect of healing, thanks to the very powerful Spell Breaker ability. Whole party running in Fear? Not anymore! Enemies have to deal with you not only in order to keep allies down from hp damage (because of stuff like Healing Word), but *also* to keep allies locked down with status effects or battlefield control from spells (which is where a lot of the nastier status effects come from). Essentially, it's very difficult for the enemy to take anyone down without taking you down, and you're bloody hard to take down.

And we're not even through the list of goodies you get from Arcana Cleric yet. You also get Arcane Banishment, which means you can now use your turn attempts not only to lock down undead, but also celestials, elementals, fey, and fiends. That's a pretty significant chunk of the Monster Manual right there, not to mention that that chunk happens to include a lot of the trickier enemies who might actually have a chance of getting around you. And when you get to high levels, you get access to the high level wizard spell list, and you don't even need to prepare your options... which means you have more spells prepared at any given time than most other clerics, and from a better spell list.

Magic Initiate also synergizes well with Arcana Cleric, and can give you access to good tanking abilities like Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, and Absorb Elements.

Edit: As for martial weapons and heavy armor, these things do not make as big a difference as one might assume. A longsword only does an extra +1 damage over a quarterstaff before you use Shillelagh or something, and clerics don't get a lot of attacks to multiply that over. A suit of full plate is an extra +1 AC over a suit of half-plate with 14 Dex... and an extra 750 gp too (more than enough for an Uncommon magic item by DMG guidelines... potentially even multiple ones. And an Uncommon magic item can add +1 AC), as well as requiring a 15 Str investment to move around in properly. Martial weapons and heavy armor are nice things, but hardly necessary for every tank build.

[Man_Over_Game]

Arcana Clerics are basically what happens when you take the middle between the Cleric and a Wizard. The notable thing about them is that they gain a lot of the Wizard-esc utility in their Prepared Spells, but they have the spell versatility of a Cleric. One of my big recommendations for an Arcana Cleric is to pick up Ritual Caster-Wizard.

This would give you a massive number of spells to utilize to support your team, and between the Arcana Cleric, Cleric Spell List, and Ritual Caster-Wizard spells, there's only 1-2 spells that result in overlap. You now have all the utility of a Wizard without needing to be a Wizard, with medium armor and great healing potential.

Damage-wise, range is going to be your friend. Arcana Clerics have a lot of damage potential, but they are pretty squishy compared to most Clerics, and you'll going to mostly want to maintain your distance. If you do plan on using something like Booming Blade or Green-flame Blade, consider grabbing Mobile for some powerful hit-and-run tactics.

They are rather simple to play, so consider the Knowledge Cleric if you want something that has a little more complexity to it.

[LudicSavant]

Arcana Clerics have a lot of damage potential, but they are pretty squishy compared to most Clerics, and you'll going to mostly want to maintain your distance.

They aren't squishy compared to other clerics at all. If anything it's the opposite.

[Willie the Duck]

Ludic's example is definitely the build everyone experimented with when SCAG first came out (Lucky oft replaced with PAM for the OA when someone approaches). It is definitely good, although one-trick-pony/DM-frustration-bait.


Human can be standard or variant I assume. Other than that I would slightly prefer to stay mostly out of melee range, but I don't want to be just support I would also like to be the hero sometimes. No party for this freak yet.

Any ideas?

Well, then that build is probably not what you'd be looking for. Arcana cleric certainly can play back-line (well, mid-line). Standing in the back lobbing Wisdom-boosted cantrips while keeping the party Blessed (or PFG&E'd, or Shield of Faith'd) and up and running is not bad at all. Kind of a different take on the Light Cleric (in a party that already has a blaster mage, for instance). For ASI suggestions, I'd still take Warcaster and/or Resilient:Con, and then max out Wisdom (plus utility feats like Healer or Inspiring Leader if you want to use spells for everything-but-curing-hps, plus any other general support feats the party needs).

[Man_Over_Game]

They aren't squishy compared to other clerics at all. If anything it's the opposite.

Arcana Clerics don't have martial proficiencies or heavy armor proficiencies. They have no abilities that deter enemies from attacking them (like Light Cleric), nor do they have any kind of self-healing (Life Cleric). All of their Domain spells either focus on dealing damage or out-of-combat utility.

There isn't a single cleric with fewer defensive capabilities than the Arcana Cleric, although the Knowledge Cleric is roughly equal.

[LudicSavant]

Arcana Clerics don't have martial proficiencies or heavy armor proficiencies.
If you're just looking at whether or not something has heavy armor proficiency, you're missing the forest for the trees. If anything the difference between heavy and medium armor is a sidegrade for survivability; being able to forego a 15+ strength lets you invest more stat points elsewhere. And Dexterity provides a lot of practical defensive benefits on its own that Strength does not (via Initiative, reflex saves, not ruining the party's stealth, etc).

And martial weapon proficiencies are basically irrelevant. It's +1 average damage for a Cleric. Or none at all if you're using Shillelagh.


There isn't a single cleric with fewer defensive capabilities than the Arcana Cleric

If you think that Spell Breaker, several efficient lockdown abilities, a very powerful OA, and the general ability to exert significant option pressure aren't significant defensive capabilities, then you're simply wrong.

And Booming Blade isn't there just for damage, it's there to do what a tank wants to do: Exert pressure on the enemy's options, therefore allowing you to focus defensive resources more efficiently. Your goal as an Arcana Cleric isn't to be a passive lump that gets targeted last, it's to be a suffocating presence on the battlefield for Team Monster.

[Corran]

Arcana Clerics don't have martial proficiencies or heavy armor proficiencies. They have no abilities that deter enemies from attacking them (like Light Cleric), nor do they have any kind of self-healing (Life Cleric). All of their Domain spells either focus on dealing damage or out-of-combat utility.

There isn't a single cleric with fewer defensive capabilities than the Arcana Cleric, although the Knowledge Cleric is roughly equal.
I dont know... They do have a very strong opportunity attack if they pick BB (which they can easily do) and warcaster (which is a good idea for any cleric). I think that's a good enough reason to put one into melee.
Edit: TBH, I can't think of any reasons that would compel me to play a cleric from range.

[Willie the Duck]

If you think that Spell Breaker, several efficient lockdown abilities, and the ability to exert significant option pressure aren't significant defensive capabilities, then you're simply wrong.

Therein lies the issue--at what point is something part of the Arcana cleric, vs. what you would do with one? If you use the Shillelagh/Thorn whip/Booming Blade death-blender build, then an arcana cleric is definitely good at locking people down. Much of that is related to BB (which Arcana clerics don't have to take), as well as Spirit Guardians (which all clerics get). So do we take that into account, given that you absolutely don't have to do it (and any cleric can do, even if it all comes together quite nicely for the Arcanas).

But beyond that, one limitation of the Arcana cleric is that it locks people down right next to their own 19 AC, moderate hp bodies without Light Cleric's special abilities, or fighter's higher HP and option for AC 20 (21 if defensive fighting style), or another builds setup where they stay away from the enemies instead.

So you're both kind of right. What Arcana has going for it most in the survivability department is that enemies want to stay away. If they succeed at that and start peppering them with arrows, however, they go down like any other moderately-surviving class.

[LudicSavant]

It is definitely good, although one-trick-pony/DM-frustration-bait.

I'm not sure why you'd say it's a one trick pony. I recommend checking the spoiler block; it has a lot more tricks than just the Booming Blade thing.

The entire point of the build is that it has good denial options for basically any situation.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm not sure why you'd say it's a one trick pony. I recommend checking the spoiler block; it has a lot more tricks than just the Booming Blade thing.

Yes, but I was talking about the build. Most of the rest of it works with any Arcana cleric.

[LudicSavant]

Yes, but I was talking about the build. Most of the rest of it works with any Arcana cleric.

Okay... but that's not what a one trick pony is. A one-trick pony is generally referring to a character that can only do one thing well and struggles outside of their narrow wheelhouse. The Arcana Cleric is definitively not that.

The Arcana Cleric build posted is a generalist that can excel at a variety of roles and has a lockdown option for pretty much any enemy tactic. Including enemies backing off and trying to use ranged attacks, since you mentioned that one.

Also, it's important to note that those tricks that any Arcana Cleric can do don't work in a vacuum. They are intended to be combined with the other tricks simultaneously to make something greater than the sum of its parts.

[Willie the Duck]

I really don't care what you call it. You are dedicating War Caster (although that's never a horrible thing in and of itself), plus Magic Initiate to a setup that your DM very well might start adapting to, or worse yet, increasing the difficulty of encounters specifically because of (to which your fellow players, who don't have this trick, will undoubtedly thank you for :smalltongue:). It's like Devil's Sight/Darkness Warlocks, only you can't swap out the spell or invocation once your DM snaps at you for pulling it out and bogging down every combat. Instead, you are stuck with it.

[LudicSavant]

I really don't care what you call it. You are dedicating War Caster (although that's never a horrible thing in and of itself), plus Magic Initiate to a setup that your DM very well might start adapting to, or worse yet, increasing the difficulty of encounters specifically because of (to which your fellow players, who don't have this trick, will undoubtedly thank you for :smalltongue:). It's like Devil's Sight/Darkness Warlocks, only you can't swap out the spell or invocation once your DM snaps at you for pulling it out and bogging down every combat. Instead, you are stuck with it.

Adapting to how? What tactic are they going to use that will make War Caster and Magic Initiate stop being good?

I don't have to use Booming Blade for either of those things to be great.

And if the DM is increasing the difficulty of encounters just because of you, that should be a strong indicator that it's a strong build.

[stoutstien]

I like that arcana can pick up a solid non save ranged cantrip. Ray of frost or frostbite both are solid support cantrips. Removing 10 feet of movement from a target can really lock down some targets

[Gtdead]

Arcana Cleric is very straightforward. Max wisdom and constitution, 14 dex, bless, healing word, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians. You will probably want to grab resilient con at some point. That's it. Unless you have a wizard in your party, as a vhuman, I'd probably grab ritual caster (wizard) at lvl 1 and then resilient con at lvl 12, after max wisdom. If you have a wizard, ritual caster is still good for familiar, but wizard can take care of the other stuff, like leomund's tiny hut.

For cantrips, you may want to pick something with a debuff rider, like ray of frost or shocking grasp.

Some thoughts on str/weapon builds.

I never advocate for weapon builds. I tried that once, with some crazy tempest/sorcerer mc build based on call lightning + quicken BB with the sole purpose of BB someone and knocking him back with CL, so he will either have to move or waste his turn. Then some PAM+Sentinel build. It may look like a solid option for a lvl 20 character, but it's pretty much unplayable at lower levels. SG is more than enough to control the battlefield and toll the dead is more than enough to be used instead of a weapon. Add a SW, and everything keys of WIS. Why not raise WIS and CON instead of pumping STR + Warcaster. It's not like BB will add that much dpr. In fact, WIS beats STR when you start upcasting SG and it's about equal before that point even if you assume that you will proc the BB rider half the time you use it.

BB wins only when you directly compare it to TtD. I think that building a cleric just to spam attack cantrips is absurd. And even if you just want to do damage and screw everything else, WIS will serve you better because the vast majority of your dpr will come from SW and SG.

[LudicSavant]

Some thoughts on str/weapon builds.

I never advocate for weapon builds. I tried that once, with some crazy tempest/sorcerer mc build based on call lightning + quicken BB with the sole purpose of BB someone and knocking him back with CL, so he will either have to move or waste his turn. Then some PAM+Sentinel build. It may look like a solid option for a lvl 20 character, but it's pretty much unplayable at lower levels.

PAM+Sentinel synergizes very poorly with a Cleric's kit, and going deep enough into Sorcerer to get metamagic is generally not worth it for a Tempest Cleric IMHO.

You shouldn't judge all melee clerics based on your experience with that though. That would be like writing off the Nuclear Wizard build because you saw an Evoker waste their time on Witch Bolt or something and decided that Wizards can't be blasters. The problem isn't that Wizards can't be blasters, it's that there's a huge difference in effectiveness between an optimized and unoptimized one.

In general I would recommend keeping multiclassing to a minimum with full casters. Knowing higher level spells is really, really important. If you're going to multiclass, you have to make sure you're getting something really good for it.

[BarneyBent]

Arcana Cleric is very straightforward. Max wisdom and constitution, 14 dex, bless, healing word, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians. You will probably want to grab resilient con at some point. That's it. Unless you have a wizard in your party, as a vhuman, I'd probably grab ritual caster (wizard) at lvl 1 and then resilient con at lvl 12, after max wisdom. If you have a wizard, ritual caster is still good for familiar, but wizard can take care of the other stuff, like leomund's tiny hut.

For cantrips, you may want to pick something with a debuff rider, like ray of frost or shocking grasp.

Some thoughts on str/weapon builds.

I never advocate for weapon builds. I tried that once, with some crazy tempest/sorcerer mc build based on call lightning + quicken BB with the sole purpose of BB someone and knocking him back with CL, so he will either have to move or waste his turn. Then some PAM+Sentinel build. It may look like a solid option for a lvl 20 character, but it's pretty much unplayable at lower levels. SG is more than enough to control the battlefield and toll the dead is more than enough to be used instead of a weapon. Add a SW, and everything keys of WIS. Why not raise WIS and CON instead of pumping STR + Warcaster. It's not like BB will add that much dpr. In fact, WIS beats STR when you start upcasting SG and it's about equal before that point even if you assume that you will proc the BB rider half the time you use it.

BB wins only when you directly compare it to TtD. I think that building a cleric just to spam attack cantrips is absurd. And even if you just want to do damage and screw everything else, WIS will serve you better because the vast majority of your dpr will come from SW and SG.

It works with Shillelagh from MI (Druid). Some action economy competition with that bonus action activation and Spiritual Weapon, so occasionally it won’t be worth it but it usually is. Plus you get Thorn Whip and a 1st level spell (I picked Goodberry). It’s a very effective build right from level 1. You’re dealing out Booming Blade damage keying off wisdom, Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians once you get those spells.

A level 5 Arcana Cleric who keeps Shillelagh running in the background deals 2d8+WIS (BB) + 1d8+WIS (SW) + 3d8 (SG) to an enemy (after the first round), plus 3d8 to any others in SG radius, while locking down characters with the choice of leaving SG radius and taking BB damage, or staying and taking SG damage. Oh and Thorn Whip to drag enemies into SG is handy too.

Is it a broken build? No. Is it fairly optimised and lots of fun? Absolutely!

[Gtdead]

PAM+Sentinel synergizes very poorly with a Cleric's kit, and going deep enough into Sorcerer to get metamagic is generally not worth it for a Tempest Cleric IMHO.

Once you realize how powerful a 20 lvl tempest cleric can be with 2 levels of fighter and 3 of sorc, the first thing that comes to mind if to create a build with that. 18d10 maximized + 9d10 on a single turn. And the pam+sentinel build was based on UA. This guy could hold an army by himself given a narrow passage. Numbers worked, but they had a problem of "backwards compatibility". A build that only works on lvl 20 is pretty much useless.



You shouldn't judge all melee clerics based on your experience with that though. That would be like writing off the Nuclear Wizard build because you saw an Evoker waste their time on Witch Bolt or something and decided that Wizards can't be blasters. The problem isn't that Wizards can't be blasters, it's that there's a huge difference in effectiveness between an optimized and unoptimized one.

I don't judge based on my experience with a different build, I judge on numbers. And my top rule for any optimized build is to limit contrived situations. Nuclear wizard is actually a good example. Yea he can destroy the world with MM, and shield spell completely destroys him. If that was the case, everyone would play an evoker wizard since people realized how MM stacks with potent evocation and JC confirmed it. Do you see many people in this forum recommend evoker?

Toll the Dead deals 3d12+WIS
BB deals 1d8+2d8+2WIS. Cleric has no way to force a BB rider unless he uses command with warcaster or something like that. So the BB rider will only proc when the DM wants to do it. But nevertheless

Assume 65% hit chance, bb procs 33% of the time
I'll consider TtD as a d12 spell. SG is save for half, so if you want to deal unavoidable damage, you can do it.

At lvl 8 TtD deals 11.7 dpr, BB 14.2. 2.5 dpr difference
At lvl 11 TtD deals 15.92 dpr, BB 18.17. 2.2 dpr difference

If you have to waste a bonus action using shillelagh after combat starts, you need 2 rounds to offset the loss of sw damage.
So yea, in a 5 round combat, you end up doing 4-5 more dpr and always assuming that bb procs 1 in 3 uses.

You can instead get an owl from ritual caster find familiar and give advantage to your cantrips. Damage will be equal if not better and you may force the dm to chase after your familiar, which can be resummoned after combat.

GFB tends to be a bit better dmg wise and you may want to be in situations where you can cleave enemies. I don't like having a fire spell as my main optimized attack though.

[Willie the Duck]

Booming blade might be worth it on a goblin cleric. However, just like Magic Initiate, you have to calculate in the opportunity cost.

[LudicSavant]

And my top rule for any optimized build is to limit contrived situations. Nuclear wizard is actually a good example. Yea he can destroy the world with MM, and shield spell completely destroys him.

You are misunderstanding the Nuclear Wizard. It doesn't get completely destroyed by Shield, because it's good at tons of things, not just Magic Missile.

It boggles the mind that you can read a build that is a full blown 9th-level-spell casting Wizard and think "Oh, it gets destroyed if it can't use Magic Missile." That is not how that works. Having a good trick does not make your other tricks disappear and turn you into a one-trick pony, especially when getting that trick has very low opportunity cost.

The reason the Nuclear Wizard is good is because it's a full blown optimized Evoker suite that has a 19 base AC, regenerating spell slots for Absorb Elements and Shield, and loads of spell combo options which all synergize with Hexblade's Curse / EE, of which Magic Missile is just one example. On top of still being able to do all the standard things that make Wizards great, which happens to be a pretty long list.

Reducing that build to Magic Missile and saying that it gets destroyed by Shield is like reducing Batman to a guy who can throw a good haymaker and claiming that he gets destroyed by anything he can't punch. It's missing the majority of the kit available to the character.

And even if you did reduce it to that (as wildly wrong as it would be to do so), "a target doesn't have the Shield spell" is not a contrived, rare situation. Far less creatures have that than, say, Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance, both of which Magic Missile bypasses.

[Gtdead]

At what level does this 1 hexblade dip worth the opportunity cost of a straight wizard.
If we are talking about grabbing 10 levels of wizard, and then 1 level of hexblade, that's a whole other story.

But if we are talking about starting lock and then full wizard, my question is this.

Is a lvl 5 nuclear better than a lvl 5 straight wizard?
Is a lvl 10 nuclear better than a lvl 10 straight wizard?
Is a lvl 15 nuclear better than a lvl 15 straight wizard?

etc

And if yes, how so. The reason enemy spell casters are so deadly is because they will use their full spell power against you in a single fight while you have to ration your spells. You face a wizard, you will face shield spell every round. You face a cleric, be prepared for a ton of damage spells, something your cleric at lvl 2-3 won't be able to do. There is a reason everyone loves counterspell. You neutralize the enemy caster till your party can deal with him.
It's nice to have a trick, as long as you don't need it to compete against a similar level build. Which is why I kinda like evoker for a fun build, but I don't like nuclear that much unless we are talking wizard 18/hexblade 1.

In every table I've been, the DM adapts to the tactics. If you start optimizing one thing that is easily counterable, you will face your counter one way or another, and the funny part about a straight evoker is that his damage output with evocation spells is so insignificant compared to other builds, that unless you have a spell like superpowered MM, you just can't compete. Sure he is a full wizard. Sure he has access to the good spells. But if it wasn't for the superpowered MM, would anyone even care about the build?

I'm not missing the point of nuclear wizard being a full wizard. I take it as a given. Once you reach wizard 18, you can dip any class and not care about it. But I have to stress how detrimental the hexblade dip can be, before a certain level. The power curve of this multiclass is below the average at low levels, and above the average at higher levels, but due to a spell that has a pretty easy counter. Web, Hypnotic Pattern, Polymorph, these are spells that win fights at preteens. Doing 10 more damage on MM on a single target per short rest isn't going to win many fights. But well, when you can wish simulacrum, and spam your whole spell list as superpowered MM, there isn't much that can resist your damage. Same way there isn't much that can resist a shapechanged pitlord bladesinger, except for a dispel.

Sorlock on the other hand, takes advantage of Eldritch blast, which is almost impossible to counter unless you have total immunity to it. And while people like hexblade sorlock now, celestial sorlock is better in my opinion, because of sacred flame (I generally don't like Divine Soul that much, I like shadow or dragon, but whatever, sacred flame is important here). You either have magic immunity or you will take cantrip damage. And he has access to animate objects just in case.

[LudicSavant]

I'm not missing the point of nuclear wizard being a full wizard. I take it as a given. Then you wouldn't say things like "they're completely destroyed by someone with Shield." A full Wizard is not destroyed by someone using the Shield spell, let alone "completely destroyed."

It is a rare (as in, few creatures have it) counter to only one of your many, many useful abilities.


At what level does this 1 hexblade dip worth the opportunity cost of a straight wizard.

Potentially from level 1. It actually does a good deal to smooth out your low level progression, since you'll have more spell slots, a much better AC, more cantrips, a few extra hit points at a level where it matters, and better resourceless tools. And that Magic Missile / Hexblade's Curse thing does competitive damage right at level 2, and can be stacked with other things as well. I found that it had a very smooth progression all the way from level 1 to 20, and was making our local Sorlock jealous because it was using things like Freezing Sphere combos and Contingency.

Also, Hexblade dips are popular for Wizards in general, not just Evokers (largely because it's one of the more efficient ways to make a Wizard stop being squishy).


Do you see many people in this forum recommend evoker?

Actually, yes. I regularly see posts like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567072-Evoker-Wizard-is-probably-the-best-low-level-and-high-level-blaster). Diviner and Abjurer tend to get the most attention, but I see no shortage of love for Illusionists, Evokers, Necromancers, etc. All of the Wizard subclasses are pretty good, honestly.


the funny part about a straight evoker is that his damage output with evocation spells is so insignificant compared to other builds, that unless you have a spell like superpowered MM, you just can't compete.

That is simply false. Though I can see why an inexperienced player might think that; there are some bad trap options for blaster Wizards, and they require knowledge of spell combos to work properly (unlike just spamming Eldritch Blast). But none of that changes the fact that they can do things like walk in with an overchanneled shaped DoT/CC, Contingency, Freezing Sphere, Magic Missile, and undead minions all firing off in the same round from the back of a Phantom Steed (which they also put the entire party on), and it's damned effective.


Once you realize how powerful a 20 lvl tempest cleric can be with 2 levels of fighter and 3 of sorc, the first thing that comes to mind if to create a build with that. The first thing for you, perhaps. To me, that sounds like a really bad idea, losing tons of ASIs and spell access for a late game costly nova burst that is comparable to what other DPR builds can do at level 20.


I don't judge based on my experience with a different build, I judge on numbers. That's good, but your mathematical analysis is deeply flawed, both in the case of the Tempest build you came up with and in the case of Booming Blade.


Toll the Dead deals 3d12+WIS
BB deals 1d8+2d8+2WIS. Cleric has no way to force a BB rider unless he uses command with warcaster or something like that. So the BB rider will only proc when the DM wants to do it. But nevertheless

Assume 65% hit chance, bb procs 33% of the time
I'll consider TtD as a d12 spell. SG is save for half, so if you want to deal unavoidable damage, you can do it.

At lvl 8 TtD deals 11.7 dpr, BB 14.2. 2.5 dpr difference
At lvl 11 TtD deals 15.92 dpr, BB 18.17. 2.2 dpr difference

If you have to waste a bonus action using shillelagh after combat starts, you need 2 rounds to offset the loss of sw damage.
So yea, in a 5 round combat, you end up doing 4-5 more dpr and always assuming that bb procs 1 in 3 uses.

You can instead get an owl from ritual caster find familiar and give advantage to your cantrips. Damage will be equal if not better and you may force the dm to chase after your familiar, which can be resummoned after combat.

GFB tends to be a bit better dmg wise and you may want to be in situations where you can cleave enemies. I don't like having a fire spell as my main optimized attack though.

I disagree with pretty much all of your assumptions here.

1) The fact that you think not being able to force the rider is a problem tells me that you're asking the wrong questions. If I can pressure an enemy into standing still, that in and of itself provides high tactical value that I can exploit to create no-win situations for the enemy and nasty party combos. If the DM decides not to move to avoid my OA or rider... fantastic! Mission accomplished! Who needs Sentinel?

They choose to use ranged attacks? Great! They have disadvantage and cover penalties. They choose to use melee attacks? Great! They have to attack the tank. They want to use spells? You've got Spell Breaker and Counterspell. And of course they're taking damage from the party's hazards the whole time. They want to leave your threatened area? Great! They take burst damage, move at half speed through your Spirit Guardians, and you can yank them right back into position.

This is how you tank. Not by being a passive lump of HP, but by sabotaging a foe's options.

2) Booming Blade can activate on an OA, and if it does so, it gets the rider. Clerics generally don't have a lot of competition for their reactions, and a very good OA is a great boon for any frontliner (again, if they opt to stand still instead of provoking an OA, mission accomplished). And I would have taken War Caster regardless because reliable Concentration is extremely important to me as a Cleric. This is not in any way comparable to your Tempest Cleric / Sorcerer build where you are making major compromises to your effectiveness and versatility.

3) You don't need to use bonus action on shillelagh after combat starts. It's a concentrationless at-will buff.

4) Toll the Dead and BB target different defenses, and will not have the same hit chance against any given foe. Booming Blade for example will hit through Legendary and Magic Resistance, as well as hitting enemies with high Wis saves or low AC much more efficiently. You should take both because they're good at different things (and indeed, the build I posted takes both). Ironically, you seem to be the one advocating a narrower build, both here and in the examples you gave of past builds you played.

5) Booming Blade synergizes with a lot more spells and equipment than Toll the Dead does.

6) Find Familiar can't give Advantage on cantrips like Toll the Dead. You'd have to be using something like Fire Bolt or Booming Blade instead.

7) Absorb Elements is a very reliable tool for cutting into nasty effects like dragon breath or Tempest novas in a pinch (and it boosts your Booming Blade damage as a bonus). Thorn Whip is one of the main reasons I take Magic Initiate on a hazard/controller build. Booming Blade also synergizes with hazard/controller strategies. You make it sound like we're only taking it for Shillelagh, which is not the case at all.

8) Most importantly, we didn't really go out of our way to get our good BB going. War Caster is good in general. Absorb Elements and Thorn Whip are good in general. Arcana Cleric's defensive kit is good in general (Spell Breaker especially). You could play the same build without taking Booming Blade and still be a very good character. This is in no way comparable to your gimmick Sorcerer/Cleric build or a PAM/Sentinel.

[Gtdead]

And you take that survivability and do what with it? Keep up the concentration spell that you don't have access to yet?

I can see this being useful in a party of 2 where everyone needs to fill a secondary role, or as a capstone of sorts when you near the end of a campaign and an even wizard level won't get you something important for the needs of the party. But what do you optimize for here? Being hardy? Why? Are you going to tank?

A wizard 1 can use minor illusion to grant cover and familiar to grand advantage without spending a single spell slot. Sleep can end encounters at lvl 1.

Sure, you gain the ability to shield someone 6~ times per day with warlock and at lvl 2 you can do the MM combo, but then again, at this level, the deadliest thing you can face is a critical. Straight wizard will end battles faster, unless of course you lack the appropriate roles in the party.


1) The fact that you think not being able to force the rider is a problem tells me that you're asking the wrong questions. If I can pressure an enemy into standing still, that in and of itself provides high tactical value that I can exploit to create no-win situations for the enemy and nasty party combos. If the DM decides not to move to avoid my OA or rider... fantastic! Mission accomplished! Who needs Sentinel?

They choose to use ranged attacks? Great! They have disadvantage and cover penalties. They choose to use melee attacks? Great! They have to attack the tank. They want to use spells? You've got Spell Breaker and Counterspell. And of course they're taking damage from the party's hazards the whole time. They want to leave your threatened area? Great! They take burst damage, move at half speed through your Spirit Guardians, and you can yank them right back into position.

This is how you tank. Not by being a passive lump of HP, but by sabotaging a foe's options.

I don't see how a cleric can take that much punishment and survive. I've played a cleric before, and I had to make extensive use of dodge action and even in combat heals to survive. I agree that active tanking is far superior to passive tanking. I also think your are trying to do too much with the build. When I say that the cleric doesn't have any options to force the rider, I mean that he will just tank the damage from every attacker. I consider this a bad idea. Cleric doesn't get to commit whenever he feels like. He is there to take the damage instead of the back line. A lone Cleric will be completely drained if he decides to be the meatshield.


2) Booming Blade can activate on an OA, and if it does so, it gets the rider. Clerics generally don't have a lot of competition for their reactions, and a very good OA is a great boon for any frontliner (again, if they opt to stand still instead of provoking an OA, mission accomplished). And I would have taken War Caster regardless because reliable Concentration is extremely important to me as a Cleric. This is not in any way comparable to your Tempest Cleric / Sorcerer build where you are making major compromises to your effectiveness and versatility.

Tempest/sorcerer uses the exact same concepts. Warcaster, heavy armor, max wis, and dips into sorcerer when he doesn't need much more from the cleric list to perform his role. Con prof, Shield are important to survivability and the whole point was to scatter the enemies around with a booming blade on their heads.


3) You don't need to use bonus action on shillelagh after combat starts. It's a concentrationless at-will buff.

That you still have to declare that you cast it and anyone can react to it. There are cases where this can backfire, unless you just assume it's always on. We don't do that. It's up to the DM if you can just keep it up forever.


4) Toll the Dead and BB target different defenses, and will not have the same hit chance against any given foe. Booming Blade for example will hit through Legendary and Magic Resistance, as well as hitting enemies with high Wis saves or low AC much more efficiently. You should take both because they're good at different things (and indeed, the build I posted takes both). Ironically, you seem to be the one advocating a narrower build, both here and in the examples you gave of past builds you played.

Wis defense isn't that popular among humanoids and a lot of low cr enemies so it's fine. You are right that I propose a narrower build in melee, because I said I don't like weapon clerics anyway and I don't care to optimize for it. I prefer ritual caster instead of MI if there is no wizard, otherwise I'd rather do something about concentration. In any case, if you actually strip legendary resistance with TtD you are golden.


5) Booming Blade synergizes with a lot more spells and equipment than Toll the Dead does.

Agreed. Still it's a bad idea to prioritize items like weapons instead of anything else.


6) Find Familiar can't give Advantage on cantrips like Toll the Dead. You'd have to be using something like Fire Bolt or Booming Blade instead.

I know, I'm actually talking about BB. Getting BB on the spell list is one thing, optimizing BB is another.


7) Absorb Elements is a very reliable tool for cutting into nasty effects like dragon breath or Tempest novas in a pinch (and it boosts your Booming Blade damage as a bonus). Thorn Whip is one of the main reasons I take Magic Initiate on a hazard/controller build. Booming Blade also synergizes with hazard/controller strategies. You make it sound like we're only taking it for Shillelagh, which is not the case at all.

Thorn Whip I kinda like. I was using Lightning Lure on my tempest build but this is better. Still, opportunity cost.


8) Most importantly, we didn't really go out of our way to get our good BB going. War Caster is good in general. Absorb Elements and Thorn Whip are good in general. Arcana Cleric's defensive kit is good in general (Spell Breaker especially). You could play the same build without taking Booming Blade and still be a very good character. This is in no way comparable to your gimmick Sorcerer/Cleric build or a PAM/Sentinel

You do MI, Warcaster to get the build going.
My sorcerer/cleric "gimmick" build starts with con proficiency and warcaster at lvl 1. Does everything you advocate here, delayed by 1 level up to lvl 6, uses lightning lure instead of thorn whip, shield instead of one absorb elements per long rest, has increased mobility with tempestuous magic, more AC. What it doesn't have, is consistency because you need to invest in str early, and you end up a full caster.

[LudicSavant]

Sure, you gain the ability to shield someone 6~ times per day with warlock and at lvl 2 you can do the MM combo, but then again, at this level, the deadliest thing you can face is a critical. Straight wizard will end battles faster, unless of course you lack the appropriate roles in the party.

How do you propose they do this, at level 2? Everything you named is something that the Hexblade/Wizard also has at level 2. And their nova DPR at level 2 is about on par with a GWM/GWF Action Surge. Yes, really. On top of having all the spell options a regular level 2 Wizard would have, except with more spell slots (even moreso because they never have to cast Mage Armor).

This nova damage continues to be relevant until they start getting bigger spell slots, at which point they start doing things like walking around with Spirit Guardians (Thanks for that Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica backgrounds) while having spammable Shield/Absorb Elements, high AC/reliable Concentration, and Fireball. And all of it procs Hexblade's Curse for bonus damage.


A wizard 1 can use minor illusion to grant cover and familiar to grand advantage without spending a single spell slot. Sleep can end encounters at lvl 1. Yes, but it's not like Hexblades have a bad level 1 start either. Or are you actually arguing that you think Hexblades have a rough level 1?


And you take that survivability and do what with it? Keep up the concentration spell that you don't have access to yet?
You can get Concentration spells right at level 1. And survivability is good for everyone, not just tanks.


I can see this being useful in a party of 2 where everyone needs to fill a secondary role, or as a capstone of sorts when you near the end of a campaign and an even wizard level won't get you something important for the needs of the party. But what do you optimize for here? Being hardy? Why? Are you going to tank?

Let's say I'm in a game and I've got a Bearbarian as my tank. You are ambushed by a horde of bandits with crossbows. They fire crossbows at the Wizard, because everyone knows you're supposed to shoot Wizards first. You will be thankful for not being squishy.

[Gtdead]

How do you propose they do this, at level 2? Everything you named is something that the Hexblade/Wizard also has at level 2. And their nova DPR at level 2 is about on par with a GWM/GWF Action Surge. Yes, really. On top of having all the spell options a regular level 2 Wizard would have, except with more spell slots (even moreso because they never have to cast Mage Armor).

Mistyped that one. I meant from the start of the campaign, not just on level two. Advantage on a heavy hitter and sleep makes combat last less. Less chances for rolls, less chances for crits. And the familiar being target offsets the chance even more.



This nova damage continues to be relevant until they start getting bigger spell slots, at which point they start doing things like walking around with Spirit Guardians (Thanks for that Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica backgrounds) while having spammable Shield/Absorb Elements, high AC/reliable Concentration, and Fireball. And all of it procs Hexblade's Curse for bonus damage.

Yes, but it's not like Hexblades have a bad level 1 start either. Or are you actually arguing that you think Hexblades have a rough level 1?

Not familiar with Ravnica yet. And I'm not arguing about hexblade lvl 1 being strong. I'm arguing about how the dip helps create a better wizard. You dip hexblade to boost your wizard but you sacrifice progression for survivability and magic missiles. At lvl 1, sleep is extremely effective. At lvl 2, nuclear gets access, at lvl 3 straight wizard gives guaranteed short rests and web, lvl 4 nuclear catches on, lvl 5 hypnotic pattern/counterspell, lvl 6 nuclear catches on etc. I can see nuclear wizard holding his own at even levels, but the power difference at odd levels is significant.



You can get Concentration spells right at level 1. And survivability is good for everyone, not just tanks.



Let's say I'm in a game and I've got a Bearbarian as my tank. You are ambushed by a horde of bandits with crossbows. They fire crossbows at the Wizard, because everyone knows you're supposed to shoot Wizards first. You will be thankful for not being squishy.

Certainly this can happen. But wizard has +3 dex, access to mage armor and shield (although it would be a disaster to lose all these spells like that). Wizard if vhuman would probably have alert or lucky. Hexblade has better chances but wizard isn't completely helpless.

[LudicSavant]

Note: Gtdead added a large number of responses in an edit to post #26 over an hour after I responded to post #26. So that's why they weren't responded to in post #27.


You dip hexblade to boost your wizard but you sacrifice progression for survivability and magic missiles. At lvl 1, sleep is extremely effective. At lvl 2, nuclear gets access, at lvl 3 straight wizard gives guaranteed short rests and web, lvl 4 nuclear catches on, lvl 5 hypnotic pattern/counterspell, lvl 6 nuclear catches on etc. I can see nuclear wizard holding his own at even levels, but the power difference at odd levels is significant.

Your criticism seems very internally inconsistent to me. You don't seem to be concerned with a Sorlock delaying their progression more than this, and having a bumpier early game than the Nuclear Wizard does, and investing more resources into a narrower set of tricks.


Mistyped that one. I meant from the start of the campaign, not just on level two. Advantage on a heavy hitter and sleep makes combat last less. Less chances for rolls, less chances for crits. And the familiar being target offsets the chance even more. Uhm, you realize a Nuclear Wizard can just take Wizard 1 first, right? You get the Medium Armor/Shield prof even if it's not your first level, so it doesn't matter if you prefer to begin life as a Hexblade 1 or Wizard 1. And then at level 2 you are a tankier, more damaging version of other level 2 Wizards with more spell slots to burn and more cantrips known.

There is no level where a proper Nuclear Wizard build is weak. Is it better than literally everything at literally every level? No, but then, nothing is. Overall it's a pretty smooth progression that works well from 1-20 and can put up damage in the same range of Sorlocks while having greater versatility and coming online faster.


Eldritch blast, which is almost impossible to counter unless you have total immunity to it.
Except for all of the usual counters for ranged attacks and spell attacks.


Tempest/sorcerer uses the exact same concepts.
No, it really doesn't. You picked a different subclass, multiclassed for an entire five levels at the cost of delaying spell progression, made a build that invested heavily in Strength (which I advised dumping), didn't pick a particularly synergistic kit, lost multiple ASIs, maxed any relevant stats late, don't have Potent Spellcasting or Spellbreaker, and are missing access to most of the important tricks, tactics, and synergies I recommended.


Does everything you advocate here This is flat out untrue. Not only does your build not do what I advocate, it does a variety of things I regularly warn against as trap options to be avoided.


Certainly this can happen. But wizard has +3 dex, access to mage armor and shield (although it would be a disaster to lose all these spells like that). Wizard if vhuman would probably have alert or lucky. Hexblade has better chances but wizard isn't completely helpless.

Nobody said anything about straight Wizard being helpless. You asked why a Wizard would care about survivability if they weren't the main tank. I think it should be rather obvious why.


When I say that the cleric doesn't have any options to force the rider, I mean that he will just tank the damage from every attacker. I consider this a bad idea. Making enemies focus you is precisely what you want as a tank. Indeed, if all enemies are focusing a single target, it makes it way more efficient for a party to mitigate damage via distribution of buffs, gear, and control effects.

[Gtdead]

Your criticism seems very internally inconsistent to me. You don't seem to be concerned with a Sorlock delaying their progression more than this, and having a bumpier early game than the Nuclear Wizard does, and investing more resources into a narrower set of tricks.

Indeed, because the point is to maximize direct combat ability through attack cantrips, spell progression comes second. I consider sorlock an one trick pony with the best trick in the game. Something similar with a sorcadin build. I optimize for survivability and smite damage. The fact that you can have a good spell progression is gravy in this situation because the build is already strong once you get blur, with heavy armor and shield. It does what it was meant to do once it goes online.



Uhm, you realize a Nuclear Wizard can just take Wizard 1 first, right? You get the Medium Armor/Shield prof even if it's not your first level, so it doesn't matter if you prefer to begin life as a Hexblade 1 or Wizard 1. And then at level 2 you are a tankier, more damaging version of other level 2 Wizards with more spell slots to burn and more cantrips known.

There is no level where a proper Nuclear Wizard build is weak. Is it better than literally everything at literally every level? No, but then, nothing is. Overall it's a pretty smooth progression that works well from 1-20 and can put up damage in the same range of Sorlocks while having greater versatility and coming online faster.

I do realize that, which is why I asked you at what level you think that this trade off is worth it. I said that I think it may be worth it as a capstone on a lower level campaign, or after a key spell, or after lvl 18. You said it is already worth it at lvl 1 to which I disagree because I think that wizard spikes hard up to at least level 5, and delaying that isn't optimal.




No, it really doesn't. You picked a different subclass, multiclassed for an entire five levels at the cost of delaying spell progression, made a build that invested heavily in Strength (which I advised dumping), didn't pick a particularly synergistic kit, lost multiple ASIs, maxed any relevant stats late, don't have Potent Spellcasting or Spellbreaker, and are missing access to most of the important tricks, tactics, and synergies I recommended.

This is flat out untrue. Not only does your build not do what I advocate, it does a variety of things I regularly warn against as trap options to be avoided.

The build is supposed to work at higher levels. In lower levels it needs to do something other than casting bless,shield and heals, so I get some redundancies to broaden the scope and make the build work without magic items. It's not optimized for these levels. The way it does it, is comparable to the abilities you are describing from druid MI. Pushing con saves, getting cantrips that manipulate position. I don't need to raise str to deal damage. I trade str for dex since I'm wearing heavy armor, and that strength, hopefully with an item raising it, will get me by till the build comes online.

I'm not saying it's better than a straight arcana cleric optimized for melee or anything, I'm saying that it's not a gimmick. It's as well rounded as it can be while trying to reach a particular end game, and while searching the best way to do it, I came to the conclusion that optimizing for melee isn't worth the feats because other feats offer a more substantial and well rounded boost. Being an offtank with save cantrips is ok damage wise, and between SG slow and sanctuary, I have everything I need to protect the backline.

I think that the main problem with a melee cleric is that it's not as durable as most people think and SG no save slow is more than enough to force enemies to stay away from the back line. Actively trying to soak damage while keeping action economy free (namely without spamming dodge every round) is dangerous and that was my experience as well when I played one.




Nobody said anything about straight Wizard being helpless. You asked why a Wizard would care about survivability if they weren't the main tank. I think it should be rather obvious why.

Making enemies focus you is precisely what you want as a tank. Indeed, if all enemies are focusing a single target, it makes it way more efficient for a party to mitigate damage via distribution of buffs, gear, and control effects.

I asked why would you prioritize all this defensive capability before you even have the chance to be a wizard. I can see a few situations where it would be important, like not having all the roles in the party covered and having to broaden the role of a PC.

[LudicSavant]

I think that the main problem with a melee cleric is that it's not as durable as most people think
Or perhaps they are seeing something that you are not.

What exactly do you think makes, say, a Fighter notably tankier than a Cleric?

[Gtdead]

Well, if you care about number crunching, shield fighter is about 33% more durable against common enemies at lvl 1 from AC alone, and has quite a sizeable advantage in surviving a critical from those enemies. AC scales extremely well, he has a lot of feat options depending on the campaign (lucky, HAM, sentinel/warcaster for when he gets bladeward), and with shield spell at lvl 3 he will become unhittable at these levels. He gets BB and later he can expand on his offensive capabilities.

Having a healing ability on short rest helps a bit too.

A shield Fighter with HAM will take WAY more punishment than an Arcana Cleric. Now if you compare it to GWM fighter, cleric wins, certainly.

[LudicSavant]

Now if you compare it to GWM fighter, cleric wins, certainly.

If you think that GWM Fighters can be on the front lines, and you believe that Clerics are more survivable than they are, then you should have no objection to a Cleric being on the front lines. That should be the end of it.


shield fighter is about 33% more durable against common enemies at lvl 1 from AC alone

Actually, Chain Mail and Scale Mail provide the same AC at level 1 (and the scale is cheaper to boot). They don't have an AC advantage at all unless they use the Defense fighting style, which many shield fighters don't (since they scale with Duelist better than any other build in the game, and actively shutting down enemies is often better than +1 AC). And even if they do, you shouldn't be counting the Fighter's class features while leaving out the Cleric's, which can also provide defensive benefits (including boosting AC! Though I don't think that's even one of their better mitigation spells).

For your typical lvl 1 Duelist Shield Fighter, they're going to have the same base AC as a Cleric, 13 hit points vs 11 hit points, and lack access to spells which add additional defensive benefits. And of course she who invested in Dex instead of Str will have a higher Initiative, etc. (Also, the one who has Guidance will frequently have a higher Initiative, too).

As long as you wanna keep comparing things at level 1 for whatever reason, we can compare to the Paladin too. At level 1 they have the same AC as a Medium armor Cleric, and a Lay on Hands which heals less than the Cleric's spell slots can (and the Cleric has even better mitigation tools than simply healing). And 12 vs 11 hp (since Paladins usually have Con as a tertiary stat, rather than secondary, which frequently means they have it at +2 with point buy).

So yeah... there's not a notable AC advantage here.

What about at other levels? Medium Armor continues to have a variety of advantages which make it largely a sidegrade. These advantages include higher initiative (which should never be underestimated in terms of how much it mitgates), better Reflex saves (which I feel mitigates more than Strength saves), better stealth, lower cost, and more stat points freed up, all of which contribute to a higher survivability. Fun fact on the cost thing: Half-Plate is so much cheaper than Full Plate that whether you're using the DMG guidelines or the XGtE ones, Half-Plate + a cloak of protection (+1 AC and saves) costs less than a suit of full plate. Yes, this isn't a thing that matters for every game (since some people use no magic items or the like), but that doesn't undermine the fact that it is important for lots of games (as in, any games that use either the DMG or XGtE guidelines for buying or crafting magic items). Whether heavy armor even provides a higher AC at all in a real game depends on your level and available resources. And as we've already established, the cost thing applies at level 1, too (where medium and heavy armor provide the same AC).

Even if you (wrongly) decided that Medium Armor was just a straight up disadvantage despite all of those facts, since your criticism was of melee clerics in general, including Tempest and the like you would also have to account for the possibility of a Cleric wearing heavy armor if they felt like it.

And how big of a deal is the difference between a 19 and 20 AC? Well, it depends what you're fighting. Against swarms of low level mooks it's a big deal... but Clerics have a huge advantage when swarm fighting due to their AoE stuff (and the fact that they can Dodge while doing it, and Disadvantage screws mooks hard. See the math I provided above for just how hard). Against single targets at mid-high levels... it is pretty insignificant against the sort of enemies who prefer to target AC. For example, a Storm Giant deals 47.1 DPR vs AC 20, and 50.1 against AC 19. Not a huge difference. And that difference is dwarfed by effective use of control abilities, spell buffs, or other forms of active mitigation (either from the Cleric or the Fighter).


Having a healing ability on short rest helps a bit too.

I find it odd that you seem to be willing to account for Second Wind and one specific kind of Fighter using Shield, but aren't including any of the Cleric's class features in your comparisons (and let me tell you, they can mitigate a lot more than Second Wind does).

If you want to make a fair comparison, you cannot leave out the impact of all of the Cleric's mitigation abilities (via control, pressure, prevention, healing, dispelling, status removal, buffs, etc), but include Second Wind and the fighter (Eldritch Knights only) using the Shield spell. Of course if you leave out every single ability the Cleric has, they're going to appear worse to you. You should be comparing the impact of things like Second Wind and Indomitable to Animate Dead, Spirit Guardians, Heal, Sanctuary, Counterspell, Protection from Evil and Good, Spellbreaker Regenerate, Death Ward, etc etc.

For an example of the kind of mitigation abilities you are overlooking, Spellbreaker Regenerate alone makes it so that I can go for an entire dungeon run with negative spell effects getting removed at the beginning of each of my turns, plus popping up off the death gate at the start of my turn if I ever get there, plus providing 633 points of regeneration (some of which will be wasted, but it's more than enough to keep you topped off on HP between fights, which means you have more hit points than the Fighter over the course of the adventure). All with no action economy cost at all. It can even handle stuff that Dispel Magic can't. What's that? Got Banished, so you can't be targeted with Dispel Magic? No problem, you're back at the start of your turn.

[masterjoda99]

Not to derail the thread further, but would you happen to have a level by level build or otherwise more details on this "nuclear wizard"?

[Misterwhisper]

My personal favorite build would be to take magic initiate: Druid for Shillelagh, thorn whip and goodberry.

Captain Cantrip