Unseen servant and help action?

[Shuruke]

So I am wondering this because it says the servant can't attack, but can do anything else a servant can.

Wpuldnt a servant be able to use help action?

I think itd be balanced
Action to cast
Bonus action to command
Only 10 a.c.
1 hp

If enemy gets tired of it they can attack it at disadvantage
If theirs any aoe it'll just die

Would it be wrong for me to allow this as a DM?

Note a player didn't ask I just saw it and am curious

[stoutstien]

So I am wondering this because it says the servant can't attack, but can do anything else a servant can.

Wpuldnt a servant be able to use help action?

I think itd be balanced
Action to cast
Bonus action to command
Only 10 a.c.
1 hp

If enemy gets tired of it they can attack it at disadvantage
If theirs any aoe it'll just die

Would it be wrong for me to allow this as a DM?

Note a player didn't ask I just saw it and am curious

the question is how do they help? i dont like the idea of a help button that can jus be mashed. if a player can come up with a good way for a 2 str invisible servant can help id allow it. maybe grope them? tickle their neck?
would also rule if a npc swings their weapon and the servant is within range it auto hits it without eating the action of the npc.

[Shuruke]

Tbh I figured 2 are can still push pull etc 30 lbs

That grabbing and pulling at you is I would say enough to count as helping.

And if it eats an attack i wouldnt mind much their either using a slot or spending 10 minutes to cast

I'm just wondering if this would be game breaking

Sure it kinda competes with A.T mage hand
But mage hand doesnt leave with damage and can always be up by casting once a minute

[stoutstien]

Shrugs* can't see it breaking anything but I'm a pretty open as DM as far as players doing weird stuff

[Shuruke]

Shrugs* can't see it breaking anything but I'm a pretty open as DM as far as players doing weird stuff

That's how I am and I saw this and figured since I've never seen someone use or take this it could be fun

[Frozenstep]

It's not much different then using find familiar. It may be at disadvantage to hit, but 10 AC is so low that even with disadvantage it'll probably still be hit. It has to stay fairly close to you (60 ft) or else it will end, and it can only move 15 feet at a time. I feel like in actual play, these restrictions would make it hard to get all that much practical value. You constantly have to be close to the battle, yet it's not very mobile so if you need to back up, it'll end the spell.

Also, if you try to keep it up all the time to be ready for combat, you're slowing the group down considerably during travel, since it can only move 15 feet a round and you need to recast it every hour.

[Jophiel]

Find Familiar takes an hour (and 10 gp) to cast. Unseen Servant takes one action (and is free). Losing your familiar by getting it engaged in combat is somewhat more punishing than losing your Servant which I think is fairly reflected by your familiar being more useful in combat via Help.

I don't think it'd break anything but I'd also have a hard time justifying allowing it since there's already a 1st level spell that does Help and has a commensurate price tag.

[MaxWilson]

Spell Mastery: Unseen Servant is amazing. Not only can you clean a whole castle in minutes, you can also clog up a whole battlefield with servants AND have them lay cantrips/spread ball bearings/etc. It's like having a enormous number of at-will familiars.

I'm not sure I'd let them Help, because they're not smart enough to understand combat, but even if they're just soaking attacks to buy time for the party Sharpshooter to shoot the bad guys, they are still worth having around.

TL;DR historically I have not let them Help but they have other uses.

[Shuruke]

Thanks for input guys!! I'm gonna ask mynplayers how they feel


As for familiar case I don't think itd make find familiar obsolete if anything a mage would either
Save familiar for scouting
Or use both for 2 help actions

[Jophiel]

As for familiar case I don't think itd make find familiar obsolete if anything a mage would either...
FWIW, I wasn't saying (or worried) that it would make Find Familiar obsolete. I just don't think that the cost of US vs FF justifies giving it a Help action.

[Mellack]

I agree that it steps on the toes of Find Familiar a bit too much if the help action is allowed. That said, I can see how having an unseen servant trying to wash an opponents face with a washcloth would be distracting.

[JackPhoenix]

Find Familiar takes an hour (and 10 gp) to cast. Unseen Servant takes one action (and is free). Losing your familiar by getting it engaged in combat is somewhat more punishing than losing your Servant which I think is fairly reflected by your familiar being more useful in combat via Help.

I don't think it'd break anything but I'd also have a hard time justifying allowing it since there's already a 1st level spell that does Help and has a commensurate price tag.

Counterpoint: That "one action" will cost you a spell slot. You can cast both through ritual, but you'll need to recast US every hour. Familiar will stick around until you need to put it in a different form or it dies. Also, you'll need BA to give orders to US, but not to familiars.


Spell Mastery: Unseen Servant is amazing. Not only can you clean a whole castle in minutes, you can also clog up a whole battlefield with servants AND have them lay cantrips/spread ball bearings/etc. It's like having a enormous number of at-will familiars.

I'm not sure if you can command more servants at once, and you only have only BA per turn.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure if you can command more servants at once, and you only have only BA per turn.

"Once you give the Command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next Command." You don't need to keep commanding every servant every round.

[Jophiel]

It cost a spell slot because Unseen Servant is more flexible to cast -- use a spell slot or take an hour. Find Familiar requires a full hour no matter what, so you can't spam it. This makes me less inclined to think that Unseen Servant deserves a Help action ability since using a familiar in combat had a stricter potential cost that can be circumvented with a servant.

[JackPhoenix]

"Once you give the Command, the servant performs the task to the best of its ability until it completes the task, then waits for your next Command." You don't need to keep commanding every servant every round.

If you want to use them for control on battlefield, you do. "Drop those caltrops there", 1 BA. Task is complete, so it'll wait for the next command. "Drop those caltrops *there*" another BA, another command. At that point, it doesn't matter if you command 1 servant repeatedly, or dozen one at a time. Another problem is that it doesn't sound like you can tell them to stop, they'll do what you've ordered them to do until the task is finished. If you tell a servant to cover the whole area in caltrops, it will keep droping caltrops around until it runs out, the whole area is covered, or until the spell ends. See: Fantasia/Sorcerer's Apprentice.

[MaxWilson]

If you want to use them for control on battlefield, you do. "Drop those caltrops there", 1 BA. Task is complete, so it'll wait for the next command. "Drop those caltrops *there*" another BA, another command. At that point, it doesn't matter if you command 1 servant repeatedly, or dozen one at a time. Another problem is that it doesn't sound like you can tell them to stop, they'll do what you've ordered them to do until the task is finished. If you tell a servant to cover the whole area in caltrops, it will keep droping caltrops around until it runs out, the whole area is covered, or until the spell ends. See: Fantasia/Sorcerer's Apprentice.

This in bold is basically what I was talking about. You say it like it's a bad thing, but you wouldn't tell it to do this if you didn't want lots of caltrops laid, so it's a good thing. (And again, each Unseen Servant that eats an attack is one less attack that can target PCs, which is great if you're fighting monsters like demons or giants where each attack is 20-30 HP of damage.)

Spell Mastery: Shield is okay, but Spell Mastery: Unseen Servant is hilarious, not to mention all of the out-of-combat uses like "Polish this whole castle". I think there's a 60' range limitation (AFB) but it's still IMO the most interesting use of Spell Mastery, with Disguise Self as a runner-up.

Edit: And of course you can switch your spell mastery to Shield if you ever feel like you need will need lots of Shield that day.

[Chronos]

You can only Help with an action that you're capable of taking yourself. Unseen servants can't attack, so they can't help with an attack. They could, however, Help you with sweeping a floor, if for some reason you needed help with that.

They can also do things like spreading caltrops which might indirectly help you in combat, but that's not using the Help action.

[Jophiel]

You can only Help with an action that you're capable of taking yourself. Unseen servants can't attack, so they can't help with an attack. They could, however, Help you with sweeping a floor, if for some reason you needed help with that.
Familiars can't attack but are allowed to Help (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2016) in combat:

Can the familiar you conjure with the find familiar spell use the Help action to grant you advantage on your attack roll?

A familiar can’t attack, but it can take non-attack actions, including Help. As the text of the Help action indicates (PH, 192), the action doesn’t require you to be able to attack; you simply need to be able to provide some sort of distraction.
However, the same article says:

Can I use unseen servant to act as an ally when using a class feature like Sneak Attack?

Unseen servant creates “an invisible, mindless, shapeless force” (PH, 284). In combat, it doesn’t act as a creature, an enemy, or an ally.
Which would be another strike against me house-ruling it to act like a creature with a Help action.

[CorporateSlave]

You can only Help with an action that you're capable of taking yourself. Unseen servants can't attack, so they can't help with an attack. They could, however, Help you with sweeping a floor, if for some reason you needed help with that.

I don't think this is accurate RAW, as clearly demonstrated (and mentioned above) that a Familiar cannot take the Attack Action, but per the Find Familiar spell description can take the Help Action, which - per the Help Action description - can be used to aid (grant advantage) an an Attack Action being made by a friendly creature within 5' of you. I can get the logic here of not wanting the non-proficient INT 7 Barbarian to be allowed to Help the INT 20 Wizard to make Aracana checks, but if they can find a good justification why not? (i.e., the Wizard tells them to page through a tome of lore and look for any of these three symbols, etc).

Back to the OP, however, since I'm referencing RAW, the Unseen Servant spell description says that for that Bonus Action the Unseen Servant can "move up to 15 feet and interact with an object." This is the same wording as in the Combat section of the PHB regarding "Other Activity on Your Turn," and I would say makes it explicitly separate from the Help Action.

RPG legalese can be tiresome and sometimes house ruled around, but on the other hand, I always prefer to make a solid distinction between common usage and rule terminology. Just because you think something would be helpful, doesn't meant it should automatically qualify as the Help Action, which is a specific Action that can only be used under specific circumstances. And since the only things the spell description says the Unseen Servant can do is "move up to 15 feet" and "interact with an object," I would say those are the only things it can do. Sure, closing a door in the enemy's face might be helpful to a wizard being outclassed in melee, but the specific Help Action it is not.

Of course, DM's can house rule whatever they want!

[guachi]

Since an Unseen Servant is not a creature, enemy, or ally I wouldn't allow it to take the Help action in combat.

[Man_Over_Game]

Since an Unseen Servant is not a creature, enemy, or ally I wouldn't allow it to take the Help action in combat.

+1 from me, too.

One of the reasons Familiars can use the Help action is because they inherently have some weaknesses (like being attacked). An Unseen Servant is invisible, and combined with this snippet of knowledge: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach., the Unseen Servant would be far too versatile as a spammable Ritual spell.

Find Familiar can also be recasted as a Ritual, but it has a gold cost associated with each time you cast the spell, where Unseen Servant does not.

[sophontteks]

There is no requirement that you have to be seen to help, and there are invisible familiars who also use the help action. Their invisibility only serves to make them better at distracting the enemy.

Unseen servant has a pretty good list of things it can do. It can move 15 feet and interact with an object. I think that rules out taking the help action, unless the player is attacking an object.

[JackPhoenix]

This in bold is basically what I was talking about. You say it like it's a bad thing, but you wouldn't tell it to do this if you didn't want lots of caltrops laid, so it's a good thing. (And again, each Unseen Servant that eats an attack is one less attack that can target PCs, which is great if you're fighting monsters like demons or giants where each attack is 20-30 HP of damage.)

Hm. I think each of us has been talking about a different kind of battlefield. I've had in my mind a small-scale skirmish typical for D&D, where the fight would most likely be over before the servant(s) start making any large impact on the battlefield. You seem to think more in the scale of actual battlefield, where that kind of tactic may be more useful. Though if you do have time to prepare, it doesn't matter much if you spread the caltrops by hand or if your servants do it for you.

The orders will also need to be pretty specific, otherwise, the servant may not stop when it runs out of caltrops, but start rearranging those already present for a more even, but less effective coverage of the target area. It is, after all, mindless (and mindless isn't the same thing as "incapable of executing complex tasks". There are experimental robots that can do very complex things, despite being mindless).

[MaxWilson]

Hm. I think each of us has been talking about a different kind of battlefield. I've had in my mind a small-scale skirmish typical for D&D, where the fight would most likely be over before the servant(s) start making any large impact on the battlefield. You seem to think more in the scale of actual battlefield, where that kind of tactic may be more useful. Though if you do have time to prepare, it doesn't matter much if you spread the caltrops by hand or if your servants do it for you.

It could be a battlefield or a dungeon, doesn't really matter. Looking at WotC adventure modules, most of the mapped locations are small enough that if you did hypothetically have a bunch of unseen servants (say, five of them instead of dozens, because you'd need to get them from ritual casting instead of Spell Mastery at those levels), you could just tell them to fill e.g. the whole Yuan-ti temple in ToA with caltrops, at a total gold cost of perhaps 200 gp (400 lb. of caltrops). I'm AFB but from memory I think that's a conservative estimate, could be even less.

For example: "Stay near me and scatter caltrops in front of me everywhere I go like a spiky red carpet." Servants could absolutely do that.


The orders will also need to be pretty specific, otherwise, the servant may not stop when it runs out of caltrops, but start rearranging those already present for a more even, but less effective coverage of the target area. It is, after all, mindless (and mindless isn't the same thing as "incapable of executing complex tasks". There are experimental robots that can do very complex things, despite being mindless).

Not like you'd mind if they did this. Free meat shields spreading caltrops are free meat shields spreading caltrops--who cares if they wind up using a slightly suboptimal distribution? They were "free." The bigger potential issue here is "is my party equipped to take advantage of ubiquitous caltrops?" I.e. do you have good ranged support and/or jumping/wall-running capabilities so that the caltrops don't hinder you as much as the enemy.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't think that the best use of Unseen Servant would be to place the Caltrops (anyone can do that in a few seconds), but I'd rather use the Unseen Servant to collect them after use. Making Caltrops reusable is a pretty creative use of the spell, I think.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think that the best use of Unseen Servant would be to place the Caltrops (anyone can do that in a few seconds), but I'd rather use the Unseen Servant to collect them after use. Making Caltrops reusable is a pretty creative use of the spell, I think.

Anyone can place caltrops, but during combat, PCs are probably busy with other things. If you open the door and five Unseen Servants tromp through and start spreading caltrops while PCs do things like cast Web/shoot arrows/Eldritch Blast/etc., you're coming out ahead.

But it would still be useful even if they had no caltrops and did nothing except just walk through the door and get in the way of the Yuan-ti Broodguards/whatever is on the other side. Even for Huge+ enemies they are still difficult terrain, and enemies cannot end their turn in the same square as them, so in many cases even a Gargantuan creature like a dragon would be unable to close with the PCs. Since PCs have much better access to ranged attacks than MM monsters do, anything you can do to prevent monsters from closing is a win, unless your party is melee-specialized (and melee specialization is a poor choice in the 5E ruleset).

[JackPhoenix]

It could be a battlefield or a dungeon, doesn't really matter. Looking at WotC adventure modules, most of the mapped locations are small enough that if you did hypothetically have a bunch of unseen servants (say, five of them instead of dozens, because you'd need to get them from ritual casting instead of Spell Mastery at those levels), you could just tell them to fill e.g. the whole Yuan-ti temple in ToA with caltrops, at a total gold cost of perhaps 200 gp (400 lb. of caltrops). I'm AFB but from memory I think that's a conservative estimate, could be even less.

Unfortunately, 400 lb of caltrops is much more than 5 US can carry. With Str 2, they have maximum encumberance of 30 lb. That's still 60 squares of caltrops, but (checking the map) it's less than half the area of the main room of the temple. And it would take them over 15 turns to do so.


For example: "Stay near me and scatter caltrops in front of me everywhere I go like a spiky red carpet." Servants could absolutely do that.

That would require the US to predict your movement pattern, and they can't do that (being mindless)


Not like you'd mind if they did this. Free meat shields spreading caltrops are free meat shields spreading caltrops--who cares if they wind up using a slightly suboptimal distribution? They were "free." The bigger potential issue here is "is my party equipped to take advantage of ubiquitous caltrops?" I.e. do you have good ranged support and/or jumping/wall-running capabilities so that the caltrops don't hinder you as much as the enemy.

They aren't really meat shields, though. They don't occupy space, as they aren't creatures, and they are invisible, so they don't block LoS. The bags of caltrops will reveal their locations, but most enemies would ignore them in combat. And (going back to the Yuan-ti temple, because that was the example used), "slightly suboptimal distribution" would actually be "less than half the normal amount of caltrops per 5' square, if they are to be spread evenly".

Another interesting wording from the spell is "If you command the servant to perform a task that would move it more than 60 feet away from you, the spell ends." Not if the servant is ever 60' from you, or if it moves that far, but if you merely command it to perform a task that would take it more than 60'. That wording is pretty abusable, if the GM wants to stop shennanigans.

[MaxWilson]

Unfortunately, 400 lb of caltrops is much more than 5 US can carry.

Think it over for thirty seconds and then tell me why this isn't an issue in practice. I don't need to tell you. (Hint: how did the caltrops get there in the first place? The Unseen Servants didn't carry them there.)


That would require the US to predict your movement pattern, and they can't do that (being mindless)

I disagree of course. It only requires them to observe your movement (am I walking? which direction?) and it is absolutely something you could expect a servant to do. Ultimately it's the DM's judgment that matters here.


They aren't really meat shields, though. They don't occupy space, as they aren't creatures

They do take up space. Check the PHB errata:

[New] Unseen Servant (p. 284). In
the first sentence, “shapeless force” is
now “shapeless, Medium force.”

[Citan]

the question is how do they help? i dont like the idea of a help button that can jus be mashed. if a player can come up with a good way for a 2 str invisible servant can help id allow it. maybe grope them? tickle their neck?
would also rule if a npc swings their weapon and the servant is within range it auto hits it without eating the action of the npc.
Hi OP Hi all. ;)

This sums up my opinion as well on that topic.
I'm not closing door but I will require the player, for each situation, to explain how the Unseen Servant can provide a big enough distraction to create Help.

"Just allowing it" would seem too gamey to me.
On the bright side, I'm overall pretty liberal (I already allow Mage Hand to create advantage in some situations ;)).

So, in short, "as long as player has a decent idea backing it, I'll allow it".

[Chronos]

On the bright side, I'm overall pretty liberal (I already allow Mage Hand to create advantage in some situations ;)).
Everyone does, for values of "some situations" that means "situations where the character is a 13th-level arcane trickster".

[Man_Over_Game]

Everyone does, for values of "some situations" that means "situations where the character is a 13th-level arcane trickster".

I always have an issue solving that question: When does creativity trump balance?

I believe that Risk > Balance (That is, people doing stupid things that can get them killed should have better successful results than official/RAW methods).

And Creativity should have some kind of intrinsic value, but Creativity usually involves low Risk. That is, someone can repeat a Creative solution at (usually) no cost. What worked once now should work every single time, or it breaks the narrative.

For me, at no point should a Wizard's Mage Hand be strictly better than an Arcane Trickster's. An investment deserves reward, and someone skipping that investment because they had more time to waste looking up creative ways of using Mage Hand doesn't inspire players to work hard on their characters. Who cares about the Battlemaster's maneuvers if everyone can gain access to them?

[JackPhoenix]

Think it over for thirty seconds and then tell me why this isn't an issue in practice. I don't need to tell you. (Hint: how did the caltrops get there in the first place? The Unseen Servants didn't carry them there.)

What, so you can occupy your party's carrying capacity, slow down the deployment even more as the US need to resupply (they are incredibly slow already) and potentialy your party's action, as they need to hand the caltrops over? That seems like a lot of issues to me.

The idea is lot more impractical than it seems. You either send the servants ahead of you, in which case the spell may end (if it would send them more than 60' away from you), or at least warn the enemies something is happening (and they propably can't open any doors in the way, or deal with any obstacle) and allow the enemies to destroy them, or use them when you're already in combat, which takes your bonus actions, requires time to show any real effect (and the combat is most likely done after 3 rounds or so), and hinders your party afterwards. And they don't deploy them tactically, they'll propably start to dump them in the nearest unoccupied space, which may offer some protection to the caster, but not where you actually need to get the caltrops to create or block chokepoints, unless you give them specific orders... which you can't do if you've ordered them to drop caltrops all over the room


They do take up space. Check the PHB errata:

[New] Unseen Servant (p. 284). In
the first sentence, “shapeless force” is
now “shapeless, Medium force.”

Doesn't matter. "Force" doesn't occupy space, creatures and objects do. The size matters because US needs to be summoned into unoccupied space, and it tells you how big the space must be, and it may matter for exact position (they are slow, after all), but unless the spell specifies US's space can't be moved through, or that it hinders other creature's movement in any way, it doesn't. See Spiritual Weapon or for even better example, Bigby's Hand: the hand is large, but only Interposing Hand variant actually block movement.

On the positive side, US is pretty much immune to most AoE effects and some other spells, as it's not a creature. Fireball, for example, only damages creatures and sets flammable objects on fire, and US is neither.

[sophontteks]

You can only attack creatures and objects too, but I doubt they just put its hp and AC down just for kicks.

[JackPhoenix]

You can only attack creatures and objects too, but I doubt they just put its hp down for kicks.

Not really. You can target "creature, object or location". That's another situation where the US size matters, as you can target the location it's in, and hit the servant, just like you were trying to attack a hidden creature.

[sophontteks]

Not really. You can target "creature, object or location". That's another situation where the US size matters, as you can target the location it's in, and hit the servant, just like you were trying to attack a hidden creature.
It is an invisible creature, unless there is a place where the game defines a force as being something different. I think they instead defined how the force is different from a creature within the description itself. But that is an interesting take on it.

[JackPhoenix]

It is an invisible creature, unless there is a place where the game defines a force as being something different. I think they instead defined how the force is different from a creature within the description itself. But that is an interesting take on it.

It is not a creature. Spiritual Weapon isn't a creature, Bigby's Hand isn't a creature, Guardian of Faith isn't a creature (and the later specifically occupies its space). Neither is Unseen Servant. It's a spell effect.

[sophontteks]

It is not a creature. Spiritual Weapon isn't a creature, Bigby's Hand isn't a creature, Guardian of Faith isn't a creature (and the later specifically occupies its space). Neither is Unseen Servant. It's a spell effect.
Fair enough. If they didn't want it to be that way they could have been more clear.