What's the Fluffin' Difference Between Hill and Mountain Dwarves?

[sakuuya]

Or, to put it in a slightly less silly way, what's the fluff justification for hill and mountain dwarves being separate subraces?

The other two races that get subraces in the PHB have enough tension in their common portrayals that dividing them into subraces makes sense. High elves are the wizardly elves; wood elves are the rangerly elves. Good. Trying to marry those two archetypes within a single race was always awkward. Same with halflings: To be very reductive, lightfoot halflings are kender, and stout halflings are hobbits. Again, separating two conflicting concepts that had previously been applied to a single race.

But hill and mountain dwarves, to me, seem less like they came about to try and reconcile differences in racial fluff and more because, well, dwarves are the third D&D fantasy race and that means they need subraces, dammit. They just don't feel different enough.

Basically, I'm looking for someone to sell me on the idea that hill and mountain dwarves are conceptually distinct.

[Jerrykhor]

One is the stronger, beefier fighter dwarf. The other is the wiser, clericy dwarf:smallbiggrin:

[jh12]

It's just an example of self-sorting. The wise dwarves moved from the mountains down to the hills, where the living was easier. Because the wise dwarves moved on, the dwarves remaining in the mountains had to work harder, not smarter, so they became even stronger to survive in the harsh mountains.

[Rusvul]

The way I see it, the hill dwarves live above-ground (or close to it) in villages, cities, towns, etc. Mountain dwarves live in mountain fortresses or deep underground. Perhaps a dwarfhold has a population of mostly mountain dwarves, but the surrounding villages (in the foothills) have lots of hill dwarves.

[awa]

i don't know if it started there but they were in dragon lance, and they were culturally different the subterranean mountain dwarves being more militarized and isolationist if i recall correctly.
I think but am not positive that the mountain dwarfs were bigger as well.

[Mimersbrønd]

In Forgotten Realms Wizard's uses another term to describe the different subraces.

changing the elf example you mention to:

High elves = Sun elves
Wood elves = Moon elves

And i do like the Forgotten Realms destinction more than the PHB for the dwarves:

Mountain dwarves = Shield dwarves
Hill dwarves = Gold dwarves

People have already mentioned it a bit here, but basically; Shield dwarves are the military, mining and crafters living inside mountains like classic dwarves do, and Gold dwarves are the dwarves that traveled from the mountains to the human cities or creating their own human-like settlements focusing more on economy and being merchants.

You can read more on this in SCAG.

[OracularPoet]

High elves = Sun elves
Wood elves = Moon elves

Hate to nitpick, but Moon Elves are also high elves. (Sun = arrogant high elves, Moon = chill high elves.) Copper elves are traditional wood elves and Green elves are traditional wild elves.

You’re right on about the dwarves. Shield dwarves are the more traditional D&D dwarves while the Gold dwarves are perhaps more like what dwarves might be in Mediterranean Europe, North Africa or the Levant.

[Particle_Man]

I think in 1st ed the hill dwarves were the pc ones and the mountain dwarves more isolationist and hence less likely to join a group of racially diverse adventurers.

[Yora]

I think they started this subraces thing and felt like dwarves need subreaces as well. But the sad truth is that all dwarves are the same. Consistently, though all settings. "Dwarf" is the only description you need to tell everything about all dwarves everywhere. If you change anything, it no longer feels like dwarves. So when they decided that dwarves need subraces, they still came up with no discernable difference.

[Great Dragon]

In Forgotten Realms Wizard's uses another term to describe the different subraces.

changing the elf example you mention to:

High elves = Sun elves
Wood elves = Moon elves



Actually, as OracularPoet said - in 5e FR - the Sun Elf and the Moon Elf are both types of High Elf, while the Wood Elf was separate.

In Dragonlance the main Elven Nations were Qualinesti Elf (Sun) and Silvanesti Elf (Moon/Stars)
- with Kagonesti Elf (Wild)


I think they started this subraces thing and felt like dwarves need subreaces as well. But the sad truth is that all dwarves are the same. Consistently, though all settings. "Dwarf" is the only description you need to tell everything about all dwarves everywhere. If you change anything, it no longer feels like dwarves. So when they decided that dwarves need subraces, they still came up with no discernable difference.

Sadly, this is true. There is very little History Divergence (FR tried to make this happen, and Dragonlance had this), and mostly no physical difference, between the two Dwarves.
Just some Ability Modifiers at Character generation.

[Klaus Teufel]

Perhaps they're trying to include 4e Dwarves, which were specifically surface-dwellers, with earlier edition's burrowing dwarves?

[Theodoric]

Whatever you want it to be; the good thing about having options is that a DM can easily retool them or remove them. In the setting I use for my games, Hill Dwarves more often live in clans near other peoples or among them (many northern Hill Dwarves are originally exiles from a now-destroyed city, got to have Dwarven exiles in your setting), whilst Mountain Dwarves are generally more secluded in their mountain kingdoms, and have better records of their ancient runic sciences (and even the ones that live elsewhere keep to themselves). Still plenty of exceptions to those general identities (and neither group is mono-cultural), but it works well enough as a baseline.

[Grey Watcher]

I'd say that mountain dwarves are your Tolkienian dwarves: their entire society is underground, pretty much the only reason people go to the surface is for things like trade, travel, and military patrols and scouting; they're insular and xenophobic to a certain degree, and very susceptible to greed and pride.

Hill dwarves are your Snow White types: still heavily associated with mining, craftsmanship, the earth, beards, and stereotypically working class drinks like beer, ale, and mead, but they're generally more approachable and much less suspicious of others and probably live in an above ground house.

Part of the reason, I think, that they're so mechanically indistinct is that, while 3E elves tried to cover ALL the bases in one package (ie both secretive woodsy elves, arrogant highly magical elves), 3E dwarves were pretty strictly taken from the Tolkien mould, so there wasn't as much existing material to sort into one box or the other.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, to put it in a slightly less silly way, what's the fluff justification for hill and mountain dwarves being separate subraces? They don't need justification. There is some more detail in SCAG and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. (I don't have Mord's with me, and the SCAG point has been raised already).
Grey Watcher got it in a nutshell, for practical purposes.

I think in 1st ed the hill dwarves were the pc ones and the mountain dwarves more isolationist and hence less likely to join a group of racially diverse adventurers. Don't think so, but I'll check and get back to you with an edit.
EDIT: You might be on to something there. While I am not sure about the less likely, that may have been lore in another book or Dragon Mag article, or in a World of Greyhawk article. (Which I don't have). But I think that your point makes sense even if it isn't a clear restriction.

The race of dwarves typically dwells in hilly or mountainous regions. For details of the race in general the reader is referred to ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS, MONSTER MANUAL. As player characters, both dwarves and their cousins the "mountain dwarves" can be considered. The MM entry defaults to Hill Dwarves, with an additional entry for Mountain Dwarves.
(much stuff and then...) Although only 4 or so feet tall, they weigh no less than 150 pounds due to their stocky muscular build. They live for no less than 350 years on the average.
and on the next page.

Mountain Dwarves: These creatures are similar to their cousins, the hill dwarves, detailed above. The only differences are size (4%’+ tall), hit dice (1 + l), and coloration (typically lighter with brown hair). They employ fewer crossbows (20% maximum) and more spears (30%). Mountain dwarves with 16 strength can work up to 7th level, with 17 strength to 8th level, and with 18 strength to 9th level. Mountain dwarves have a life span of 400 or more years. Maybe there was a 2e limitation? I'll check that one out.

[LibraryOgre]

In Dragonlance, the Mountain Dwarves were those dwarves who were part of the Mountain Kingdom of Thorbardin (there were a couple clans that were Duergar and Derro, too), while hill dwarves were those who lived outside it. When the Cataclysm happened about 300 years before the War of the Lance (the period where we're introduced to the world), the Mountain Dwarves sealed the kingdom against everyone... including the hill dwarves. The result was that Hill Dwarves were very bitter against the Mountain Dwarves, but also more engaged with the world at large.

Since I first saw the distinction in Unearthed Arcana, which predated Dragonlance, I assume the original distinction was in Greyhawk... they seem to be more of ethnic groups and phenotypes, there, with hill dwarves being brown and a little shorter, and mountain dwarves being pale and a little taller, possibly with a language difference.

As for FR, they've been inconsistent about who is shield and who is gold... I always think of the shield dwarves as being hill dwarves, and the gold dwarves as being mountain dwarves, as the northern shield dwarves tend to be more involved in mixed communities, while the gold dwarves of the south are more likely to like their entire life in places like the Rift.

[Tanarii]

And i do like the Forgotten Realms destinction more than the PHB for the dwarves:

Mountain dwarves = Shield dwarves
Hill dwarves = Gold dwarves

People have already mentioned it a bit here, but basically; Shield dwarves are the military, mining and crafters living inside mountains like classic dwarves do, and Gold dwarves are the dwarves that traveled from the mountains to the human cities or creating their own human-like settlements focusing more on economy and being merchants.
It's entirely regional in FR. The Gold Dwarves are southern dwarves, dark skinned. Shield Dwarves are northern dwarves and look more like Vikings. But Gold Dwarves are still famous for huge semi-isolated communities, like the Great Rift.

Which is irritating, because it means if you're setting your campaign in the north, Hill Dwarves should be very rare. Otoh that's true for a large number of Human sub-races as well.



Since I first saw the distinction in Unearthed Arcana, which predated Dragonlance, I assume the original distinction was in Greyhawk... they seem to be more of ethnic groups and phenotypes, there, with hill dwarves being brown and a little shorter, and mountain dwarves being pale and a little taller, possibly with a language difference.
I always assumed it was a Oerth née Tolkein thing too, like Tallfellow & Stout halflings, or Grey, Valley, and Gugach (wild) elves.

[Particle_Man]

Oh and players and dms are more likely to give a crappy Germanic accent to hill dwarves and a crappy Scottish accent to mountain dwarves.

I guess the only dwarves that are very different might be Gully Dwarves and maybe dark sun dwarves.

[PopeLinus1]

I would say, that the purpose of most standard DnD, is a system that is structured as rules for a very standard fantasy story, BUT, can easily be changed for something abnormal. Going by standard fantasy structures, Dwarves tend to take on Clerics and Warriors (Roles that were partially created by Dnd itself, mind) Similar to elves tend to be wizards, or rangers, or thieves in fantasy stories.

So we have a subrace for a fighter/Barbarian, and a subrace for a cleric, but both of which being able to be applied to pretty much any other class, with only a minor disadvantage.

[JoeJ]

I interpret the two "subraces" as moieties. That is, a cultural division of the nation into two groups. Hill dwarves and mountain dwarves have different but complementary roles in religious ceremonies, and usually sit on opposite sides at large gatherings. Most importantly, they help regulate marriage because you must choose your spouse from the opposite moiety.

[Mordaedil]

This is just my how I pictured it in my head, but basically consider that the underdark is split into three types of layers, top underdark where the drow and duergar live, middle underdark where mndflayers and aboleth live and bottom underdark which is such a hellhole it is almost entirely unknown.

Similarly, the mountain underground is divided into three layers before it reaches the depths of the underdark. Mountain dwarves are living in the middle layer and hill dwarves habitat the top layer. The bottom layer is where you find the few friendlier duergar and the less friendly mountain dwarves.


I might be getting something wrong here. Maybe human miners are the top layer and hill dwarves the middle layer and mountain dwarves the bottom layer.

[Yora]

I always assumed it was a Oerth née Tolkein thing too, like Tallfellow & Stout halflings, or Grey, Valley, and Gugach (wild) elves.

Oh yeah, elf subraces are totally a Tolkien thing. Tolkien also didn't have subraces for dwarves, which I guess is why nobody else figured out how to differentiate them while still feeling like proper dwarves.

[awa]

its not that complicated the mountain dwarves are living in a few giant self sufficient underground cities with impressive architecture and underground agriculture. They have a king are highly militant with a rigid social structure. They hold grudges and if the elves and dwarves go to open war presently or in the past these are the guys who are part of it.

The hill dwarves live above ground in smaller more egalitarian communities they are still skilled smiths and builders but they dont build on the scale of the mountain dwarves. Hill dwarves might be grumpy but their not isolationist at least not in the absolute way of the mountain dawrves so when you see a dwarf working for/ trading with humans its probably a hill dwarf.

They both craft and build, and fight and drink they both feel like dwarves but if players were randomly teleported into one of the two communities they could tell at a glance which was which.

Note this is just my interpretation of dragon lance.

[RogueJK]

Oh yeah, elf subraces are totally a Tolkien thing. Tolkien also didn't have subraces for dwarves, which I guess is why nobody else figured out how to differentiate them while still feeling like proper dwarves.

While not explicitly "subraces", there are some cultural differences between the seven clans of dwarves living in the different regions of Middle Earth (Gray/Misty/Lonely Mountain Longbeards vs. Blue Mountain Firebeards and Broadbeams vs. Red Mountain Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots). Some are friendlier to outsiders than others. Some are reported to be better craftsmen than others. There are also some references to "wicked dwarves" in the East who allied themselves with Sauron, which may be one or more of the four clans living in the Red Mountains to the East.

[loki_ragnarock]

Hill Dwarf = Lowland Scotch Accent

Mountain Dwarf = Highland Scotch Accent


Neither sound like Mel Gibson.

[Millstone85]

Hill dwarves are the ones who go ♫ heigh-ho, heigh-ho ♫ while coming back from the mine, right?

[KorvinStarmast]

Hill dwarves are the ones who go ♫ heigh-ho, heigh-ho ♫ while coming back from the mine, right? Yes, and then all seven of them and Snow White get into NSFW hijinks.

[Grey Watcher]

Yes, and then all seven of them and Snow White get into NSFW hijinks.

True. Very few workplaces will tolerate poisonous apples on the premises.

[tieren]

Check out "The Dwarves" by Marcus Heitz, explores whole realms of different flavors of dwarves. Neat reading a story where they aren't the sidekick and variations can really be meaningfully explored.

[PopeLinus1]

Hill dwarves are the ones who go ♫ heigh-ho, heigh-ho ♫ while coming back from the mine, right?

Heigh-Ho,

Heigh-Ho,

Heigh-Ho, Heigh-Ho Heigh-Ho

Heigh-Ho Heigh-Ho Heigh-Ho Heigh-Ho

[KorvinStarmast]

True. Very few workplaces will tolerate poisonous apples on the premises. Nor in pies, which I believe contributed to a well known and horrific killing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)...

[Angelalex242]

The key to poisoned apples in the workplace is giving them to everyone above you. Then, through the power of Klingon promotion, you become the CEO.

*The more you know...

[Particle_Man]

Just make sure the CEO doesn't see what you are doing in their magic mirror. One could be terminated with prejudice.