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View Full Version : Optimization Optimization Showcase in the Playground: That’s So Raven



Piggy Knowles
2019-02-25, 11:26 AM
Sadly not a lot of feedback on the last showcase, but we’ve got another primed and ready for you!

INTRODUCTION
With more than a decade and a half of toying around with 3.5, I’ve accumulated a lot of spare builds and ideas. While I don’t have an active game going right now, I still like to pop open my builds folder and try to refine things. Recently I decided to make a dedicated effort to flesh out some of these builds into full write-ups, and reached out to some friends in the CO community who might be interested in doing the same. In the spirit of Tempest Stormwind’s Weekly Optimization Showcase (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?), I thought I’d showcase the end results here.

The goal is (usually) not to show off any fancy new TO trick, but to showcase effective, playable builds and spur discussion. While each of us has a different build philosophy, in general the intent is to create something that can be played in most groups from level 1 to level 20. Again, the goal is discussion, so feel free to discuss the build, talk about other options, make suggestions or tear it all to shreds. Also, feel free to use anything showcased here in any of your campaigns—and let us know how they work out if you do!

Right now the group consists of myself, the Viscount, Akal Saris, Venger and WhamBamSam, with a couple of other folks hopefully on their way. Typically one of us writes up the build concept and possibly a stub, the others share feedback on Discord or in some of the shared documents we have, and together we refine things until we’re happy with the final product. I’ll list the build’s main author whenever I showcase a particular build.


Buffsader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559259-Optimzation-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Buffsader) (PK, ToB/Gish/Party Support)
The Utility Belt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560988-Optimzation-Showcase-in-the-Playground-The-Utility-Belt) (PK, Psionics/Stealth/Utility)
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569004-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Eternal-Sunshine-of-the-Spotless-War-Mind) (PK, ToB/Psionics/Melee Damage)
The Melding Pot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579458-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-The-Melding-Pot) (Veng, Incarnum/Utility)


A Tome of Battle-focused gish? Surprise, surprise, this one’s another of mine: That’s So Raven.


https://junehunterimages.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/raven-looks-down.jpg?w=676&h=676

That’s So Raven
Quoth the raven: debuffs galore.

BACKGROUND
I don’t know why, but I’ve been building a lot of bards lately. It’s just a really fun class to toy with. I think a lot of people just look at inspire courage and kind of stop there, but there are actually a lot of neat options you can find if you dig a bit deeper.

So it shouldn’t be a huge surprise that when I was trying my best to make a debuffer focused on making the most out of Death Devotion, bard ended up being the class I turned to. It has a lot going for it: Charisma synergy, good skills and a really unique spell list that let me do a lot of fun things. Unfortunately, I also found myself running afoul of the limited number of actions I had in a round. That’s when it all kind of clicked: what if I used divine bard instead of regular bard, and used it as an entry point into ruby knight vindicator?

The final build came together from there. While it has some neat tricks, I’m always especially happy when I get a build where the mechanics and the flavor marry together nicely. Here we combine take two very disparate elements, the light-focused and anti-undead knight of the raven with a shadowy devotee of Wee Jas. While it sounds like a stretch, the two elements actually end up merging well. As a defender of Wee Jas, you are a great respecter of death, and seek to put down those who attempt to misuse negative energy to provide some kind of half-life. You focus equally on the light and the dark and attempt to balance the positive and negative, manipulating those energies to heal with one hand or to sap the life away with the other. And without the light of the sun, how can you cast a shadow?

All in all, this was a fun character to create, and one I really enjoyed putting together.

THE BASICS

Race: Human. The bonus feat comes in handy, as does the avoidance of multiclassing penalties.
Build Stub: Crusader 1/Divine Bard 4/Knight of the Raven 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
ACFs: Healing hymn, inspire awe
Alignment: Neutral good. Ruby knight vindicator actually doesn’t have any alignment restriction, so you could go for chaotic good here if that’s your fit, but neutral good seems the best fit flavor-wise. You do need to be both good and non-lawful, however.


BUILD BREAKDOWN




Level
Class
Feats
Class Features
Maneuvers/Spells
Notes (Click to Expand)


1st
Crusader 1
Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5
Crusader’s strike, charging minotaur, leading the attack, vanguard strike, douse the flames, martial spiritS
There’s a reason crusaders are some of the best classes to play in low level games: you get a good mix of sturdiness, relevant in-battle healing, damage and party support, all in one nice little package. While you’ll eventually abandon the up close and personal style of attacking in favor of some fancier sword work, things are pretty simple at this level: charge in with charging minotaur, trip when you can, keep your party alive with martial spirit and crusader’s strike, and boost your allies with your White Raven maneuvers.



2nd
Divine Bard 1

Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, healing hymn, inspire awe
Cure minor wounds, any other three 0 level spells
Wait, divine bard? Trust me, it’s the right fit. Divine bard is the only lead-in to ruby knight vindicator that provides access to the spells you need, and as a bonus, does so while allowing you to maintain a heavy Charisma focus and a decent BAB. (This is actually the only level out of all 20 where you lose a point of BAB, and while you don’t care much about iterative attacks, more BAB means more accurate attacks and, eventually, more Power Attack.)

Ordinarily when bard and crusader show up, you expect to see Song of the White Raven and an inspire courage focus. That’s certainly a valid path, but not the one you’re going down. In fact, as inspire courage will never be worth more than a +1 bonus for you without significant investment, you might as well just replace it with inspire awe. While shaken is the most minor of fear effects, the save DC is hard to beat, and in most cases the -2 across the board that most enemies receive for being shaken will be more valuable than the +1 you can give to your allies.

Mostly your 0-level spells can be chosen according to personal preference, but definitely take advantage of the fact that divine bards get access to cure minor wounds. In addition to being a guaranteed way to stabilize allies, your healing hymn bard song also lets you increase the healing power of cure spells by an amount equal to your ranks in Perform. If your DM rules that this applies to cure minor wounds (the ability references gaining a sacred bonus on your roll when casting cure spells, and CMW does not actually roll for HP), this is a serious way to supercharge one of your cantrips.



3rd
Divine Bard 2
Knock-down

Cure light wounds, grease, any 0 level spell
Cure light wounds plays very nicely with healing hymn (and unlike CMW requires no DM adjudication), giving you supercharged out-of-combat healing to go alongside the in-combat healing you get from crusader’s strike and martial spirit. Grease is just an all-around useful spell; while focusing on battlefield control for a melee brute seems odd, your focus will often be more on disabling opponents than raw damage, and this fits right in. It also gives you a way to trigger sneak attack, which will be relevant for you later in the game.

Knock-down is going to be a pretty pivotal feat for your fighting style very soon, but before we even get that far, it’s still a fantastic one-two punch: whack someone with your weapon, get a free trip attempt, and then whack them again when they’re prone.


4th
Divine Bard 3

Inspire competence
Protection from evil, any 0 level spell
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: for my money, protection from alignment is the best defensive buff spell for its level in all of D&D 3.5. A +2 bonus to AC and saves against a wide swath of enemies and a mini-mind blank effect all rolled into a single first level spell? Yeah, I’m down with that.


5th
Divine Bard 4


Whirling blade, glitterdust
And now we hit the single biggest reason for going with divine bard over another divine casting class. Whirling blade is going to be your bread and butter attack spell for the next 15 levels, so let’s take a closer look at it. You hurl your weapon in a 60’ line, using your Charisma in place of your Strength for attack and damage, and it attacks all foes in the line. Some interesting points to note: it only attacks enemies in the area (meaning that you don’t need to go through a lot of awkward positioning shenanigans to avoid hitting your allies), and it counts as a melee attack in every way. You’ll be looking at a lot of different ways to take advantage of that, but right now it means that it triggers the free trip attempt from Knock-down.

With that in mind, whirling blade acts as a combination blasting spell and battlefield control. You’ll throw your weapon in a line, damaging enemies (and with a two-handed weapon and 1.5x Charisma damage, the damage should be respectable) and knocking them off their feet. As this is only a standard action despite hitting multiple enemies, you can stay fairly mobile while doing all of this too. You even get quite a bit of healing out of the deal, too, as successful melee attacks also trigger your martial spirit stance.

Glitterdust also comes along here. The blinding effect is great, of course, especially since your Charisma focus means you should have high DCs, but the fact that this reveals hidden foes is the real draw. If you can’t see your enemies, you can’t hit them, so use this liberally against stealthy or invisible enemies.


6th
Knight of the Raven 1
Fell Weaken
Raven harrier (harry), speak with ravens

Knight of the raven is an incredibly cool prestige class that deserves more love than it gets. With full BAB, turn undead and 9/10 divine casting, plus a lot of flavorful class features, it’s a really fun way to flesh out a divine build. The raven harrier itself is a very cool addition, giving you a celestial raven familiar that doesn’t burn XP when it dies and just replaces itself at dawn every day. It can move through threatened areas or even into an opponent’s space without provoking and distract or otherwise harry them. Right now it provides a -2 to AC to a single enemy; it’s hardly earth-shattering, but it’s certainly nothing to just ignore.

Fell Weaken isn’t terribly useful spell yet, but it will eventually be an excellent addition to your arsenal.


7th
Knight of the Raven 2

Smite undead 1/day
Swift invisibility, bladeweave
As your spellcasting increases, you pick up a pair of swift action spells to round out the attacking style you’re developing. Swift invisibility may seem a bit unnecessary on a build that will eventually be picking up cloak of deception (which is better in every way), but redundancy is good for crusaders; it’s worth always having access to this ability, even after your cloak of deception maneuver is expended. Bladeweave is an especially interesting option: once per round, you can spend a swift action to daze an opponent you’ve hit in melee. So, fire off your whirling blade, damaging as many opponents as possible and knocking them prone, and then force one of them each round to make a Will save or be dazed.

Smite undead is only once per day, but there’s nothing preventing you from using it in your whirling blade routine, essentially allowing you to double up on your Charisma bonus to the attack roll and deal some extra damage. Considering that undead are immune to both sneak attack and daze, this is a handy option.


8th
Knight of the Raven 3
Sun Devotion
Turn undead, raven harrier (baffle), Sun domain (swapped for Sun Devotion)

Turn undead is pretty much required to get full effect out of ruby knight vindicator. You also get the Sun domain. Since you’re not going to have a particularly high cleric level for turning and most of its spells aren’t of great interest to you, the domain itself isn’t particularly useful, so go ahead and swap it out for Sun Devotion as a bonus feat. This lets you spend a swift action to charge your melee weapon up so that it deals extra damage against undead. While this will obviously only be useful if you fight a lot of undead, it works nicely with your whirling blade tactics (especially since many of your other effects won’t work against undead) and is replacing something that was doing nothing for you.

Your raven also gains the ability to prevent enemies from making attacks of opportunity, which can come in handy if you’re struggling to fire off a whirling blade without provoking.


9th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
Death Devotion

Child of shadowS
Onto ruby knight vindicator. There’s a whole lot that this class will offer you, including some ways to put that turn undead to good use, but at its most basic level it’s also a great way to advance both your casting and your initiating without sacrificing your offensive prowess. It also adds shadow hand to the schools you have access to. This is nice, because you’re about to pick up an extra stance, and neither thicket of blades nor tactics of the wolf are all that useful to you. Instead, go ahead and grab child of shadow, which will provide you with concealment any time you move more than 10’. As your main attack currently only requires a standard action, this should mean keeping concealment up more or less all the time.

And remember how I said that you’ll be focused more on disabling than on doing crazy damage? Death Devotion is a perfect example of all that. The feat allows you to charge up a melee weapon with negative energy, forcing all who are struck by it to save or gain a negative level. With your Charisma focus, that’s a pretty deadly saving throw, and while you’re capped at 2 negative levels per enemy, that’s still an extremely useful debuff that will be effective against almost every type of opponent. Add that on top of tripping and your bladeweave daze effect, and you’re dishing out a pretty nasty set of effects every time you fling your weapon.


10th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2

Divine recovery
Cloak of deception, tongues, dispel magic, scrying
Cloak of deception is basically swift invisibility on steroids. And with divine recovery, you can bring it back almost immediately so that you can use it again the following round. You also pick up several nice utility spells here: the ever-useful dispel magic and tongues, as well as the near-broken scrying. Every party should have someone who can scry, and it might as well be you, right?

That said, third level spells open something else up entirely. Remember the Fell Weaken feat you took at level 3? Now you can apply it to whirling blade, so that now you can throw your weapon, and in addition to damaging all enemies in a 60’ line, knocking them down, dishing out negative levels and forcing saves versus daze, you also apply a -4 Strength penalty across the board. This weakening effect should take place BEFORE your trip attempt, too, making that trip more likely to land.


11th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3


Glibness
Since most of your spell slots will be used by whirling blade, it makes sense to focus the rest of your spells known on utility and emergency buttons. And what provides more utility than glibness? Seriously, even without full ranks in bluff, just this spell and your Charisma focus should allow you to lie your way through almost anything.


12th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
Sculpt Spell

Covering strike
Some very nice additions here. Sculpt Spell lets you dramatically change the area of a spell for only a +1 increase in spell level; now your whirling blade should be able to cover most of the battlefield. Thankfully it only hits enemies, so you don’t need to worry about friendly fire. Covering strike is a neat little maneuver that keeps everyone you hit in melee from making attacks of opportunity for three rounds; given that you can likely hit just about every enemy on the battlefield in melee as a full round action, this is quite nice, and gets added on to the long list of nasty things you can do to enemies with your whirling blade.


13th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5

Armored stealth
Sculpt sound, ruin delver’s fortune, greater mirror image
You actually have pretty good stealth-related skills and can cast in any kind of armor, so if stealth is something you’re into despite your low Dex, armored stealth can be quite nice. The big draw here are the spells, however. In addition to now having the ability to fire off a sculpted fell weakened whirling blade, you also pick up some very nice support spells. Sculpt sound is a nice little utility spell that doubles as anti-caster offense. The other two spells are immediate action gems that are completely and utterly fantastic at keeping you alive in even the most dire of circumstances.


14th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6


Shadow stride, assassin’s stanceS
You’re really going to take full advantage of the RKV’s access to shadow hand maneuvers. Shadow stride gives you move action [Ex] teleportation, which can get you out of quite a lot of sticky situations. And as for your stance? Well, any time you don’t need the party healing from martial spirit or child of shadow’s concealment (which can only be triggered on a non-metamagic’d version of whirling blade), go ahead and switch over to assassin’s stance for some extra damage. It’s only +2d6, but that’s nothing to sneeze at when applied to more or less every enemy on the battlefield, and it’s about to get even more useful very soon.

But wait, what about the volley rule, which says that when you make multiple attacks in a single standard action, only the first benefits from precision damage? Well, ordinarily you’d run afoul of it… but as a spontaneous caster, any time you apply a metamagic feat to your spell, you increase the casting time to a full-round action and bypass the volley rule’s restrictions entirely. So go ahead, enjoy that +2d6. You’ve got multiple ways of triggering it (the best being cloak of deception), so go crazy.


15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
Staggering Strike
Divine impetus
Spectral weapon
This is another huge level. You may have noticed that we’ve been stacking up quite a lot of swift and immediate action options: covering strike, cloak of deception, swift invisibility, bladeweave, ruin delver’s action, greater mirror image, stance changes… while you can definitely ration them out as needed, there is a lot of competition for that single swift action you get every round. Divine impetus lets you turn all that on its head, allowing you to trade turn undead attempts for additional swift actions.

(Please note that I’m not interested in a debate on whether or not divine impetus functions. Clearly this build assumes that the ability actually works and doesn’t require a standard action to activate. It’ll still function alright even without divine impetus, so if you’ve got an overly pedantic DM, you’ll just have to stick to one swift/immediate action per round.)

Meanwhile, now that you have sneak attack, you also have access to Staggering Strike. Staggering Strike is the final wrench in your toolbox, and it’s one of the best. Now as you fire off your whirling blade, enemies struck by it are damaged, weakened, forced to save versus negative levels, staggered and tripped. Tripping + staggering is an especially nasty little combination, since it prevents opponents from charging and forces them to choose between remaining prone or losing their standard action.

Spectral weapon is your main way of dealing with high-AC opponents. It’s kind of a crappy version of wraithstrike, truth be told, so if you have been training up UMD and have access to chambered wands of wraithstrike, please feel free to replace this with freedom of movement or something else similarly useful. Wraithstrike provides more or less the same effect but allows you to keep your current weapon (with all its wonderful enhancements that you’ve probably spent a lot of money on), and doesn’t offer a Will save to recognize the weapon as unreal. Spectral weapon does have one advantage, however: it lasts for a round per level, meaning it uses up fewer of your precious swift actions every turn. If you’re playing without access to nightsticks to fuel divine impetus, that’s actually pretty significant.


16th
Knight of the Raven 4

Light focus, smite undead 2/day

Delaying your next level of RKV will allow you to pick up 7th-level maneuvers once you do eventually take it, so you’re going to pop back into knight of the raven for a bit.


17th
Knight of the Raven 5
Enduring Life
Raven harrier (falter)
Greater invisibility, greater dispel magic, sirine’s grace
You get some very nice spells here. Greater invisibility and greater dispel magic don’t need much explanation, but I want to look a bit closer at sirine’s grace. Short duration single target buffs like this aren’t my favorite, but what it offers may just be worthwhile. The enhancement bonus to Charisma is likely eclipsed by your items at this level, but you also add a deflection bonus to AC equal to your Charisma. Combined with your heavy Charisma focus and the enhancement to Dexterity (which you’re a lot less likely to have purchased items to enhance) and some other minor benefits, that can be quite notable. It’s not going to be a game-changer, but it can be a nice defensive buff for tough battles.


18th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8
Power Attack

Clarion call, restoration
Restoration is another of those spells that every party needs access to in some capacity, and since divine bards get access to it, it might as well be you. And as for why you delayed this level… take a look at clarion call. Now if you drop an enemy with any of your whirling blade attacks, you can spend a swift action to let all of your allies move or attack.

Finally, while you’ve been focusing on a myriad of ways to debuff opponents, your damage has been nothing to write home about. Power Attack comes in and fixes all of that. You have a near-perfect BAB, ways of making your attacks as touch attacks, and a big ol’ two-handed weapon. Go ahead and scream “POWER ATTACK!!!!” every time you throw your blade and add on a clean +34 damage to each attack.


19th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 9

Divine fury

Sadly, divine fury is probably never going to get used, as it’s strictly inferior to just about everything else you could do with a turn attempt. It is a free action, though, so I suppose it’s nice to have if you ever do need it.


20th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10


One with shadow, magic aura, shadow walk, commune, superior resistance
And you finish things out with a final level of ruby knight vindicator, letting you pick up an 8th-level maneuver. While most of the white raven and devoted spirit maneuvers don’t offer much to your fighting style, one with shadow is a very nice counter that can allow you to avoid a wide variety of attacks. It also potentially has some very nice offensive implications as well. Ordinarily when you are incorporeal, the weapons you wield ignore physical barriers. But once those weapons leave your hands, they become corporeal, making this less useful alongside your whirling blade tactics. However, one with shadow specifies that all your gear turns incorporeal as well. Does this bypass the normal restriction that the incorporeal subtype has and allow you to throw a big incorporeal weapon? Ask your DM. If so, it’s an interesting alternative to the otherwise-underwhelming spectral weapon, and combos nicely with Power Attack.

But perhaps more importantly, the final level of RKV also means you get access to 6th-level bard spells. Superior resistance is just a fantastic defensive buff, while commune is something you have special access to as a divine bard. Go ahead and pester Wee Jas for the answer to all your burning questions. And with an extra 5th-level spell, shadow walk remains in-theme with your shadow hand maneuvers and adds some longer distance travel to your short range teleportation. (Oh, and for some reason, you get an extra first level spell here too. Just pick any utility spell; I’m a fan of magic aura, personally.)




1- Crusader’s strike, charging minotaur, leading the attack, vanguard strike, douse the flames, martial spiritS
2- Cloak of deception
3- Assassin’s stanceS
4- Covering strike
5- Shadow stride
7- Clarion call
8- One with shadow



0- Cure minor wounds, any 5 other 0-level spells
1- Cure light wounds, grease, protection from evil, swift invisibility, magic aura
2- Whirling blade, glitterdust, bladeweave, tongues
3- Dispel magic, scrying, glibness, sculpt sound
4- Ruin delver’s fortune, greater mirror image, greater invisibility, spectral weapon
5- Greater dispel magic, sirine’s grace, restoration, shadow walk
6- Commune, superior resistance



You’ve got some hefty stat requirements, unfortunately. Charisma is the main focus; by the time you hit the mid-levels, Charisma will power just about everything offensively. You’ll also want a respectable Strength score to qualify for Knock-down and to drive your trip rolls, and at least a 13 Int for Combat Expertise. Finally, you’ll need at least a 16 Wisdom by level 20 in order to cast 6th-level spells. (This last is easy enough to obtain via items, as a +4 periapt of wisdom isn’t a huge investment by level 20, but it’s something to keep in mind.) Luckily your heavy armor proficiency and the fact that you are a divine caster means you can safely dump Dexterity.

The best way to make this work with a 28-point buy is to start with a Wisdom of 11 and use your level 4 stat boost to increase to 12 in time to take second level spells. However, with 32 point buy you’ll have significantly more freedom.

SAMPLE STAT ARRAYS:
28-point buy: Str 15/Dex 8/Con 10/Int 13/Wis 11/Cha 16
32-point buy: Str 15/Dex 8/Con 12/Int 14/Wis 12/Cha 16



Your skill pre-reqs are relatively minimal and won’t require any crazy cross-class skill shenanigans. By level 9 you’ll need 4 ranks in hide and intimidate and 8 in knowledge (religion) to qualify for RKV. That’s it for requirements. I would also highly recommend keeping Perform up to par, as it drives the amount you heal with healing hymn and the DC on your inspire awe.

Beyond that, you have a lot of options regarding how you develop your skills. You have a heavy Charisma focus, so going in as the party face is an obvious choice. Use magic device is another excellent option as well, especially if you decide to go with chambered wands of wraithstrike instead of the spectral weapon route.



You absolutely need a two-handed slashing weapon to make this build work. A greatsword is a fine choice, though I’m personally a fan of the scythe. It fits well thematically as an emissary of a goddess of death and a culler of the undead, it keeps up decent damage not far behind the greatsword and it’s a tripping weapon. Plus, you can use it as a sinister but classy walking stick when you’re not playing Xena the Warrior Princess and flinging it across the battlefield. But again, any two-handed slashing weapon (even a reach weapon - you don’t benefit much from reach, but it doesn’t hurt you either) works here. The other option I might consider is the falchion; you can end up making a lot of attacks each round if you’re fighting groups of enemies, and with a falchion and a scabbard of keen edges, that can mean an awful lot of crits.

As a divine caster with heavy armor proficiencies, go crazy with your armor choices unless you’ve decided to go down the stealth route, in which case keep it light until armored stealth comes online.

Charisma is your bread and butter so get every item and tome to boost that as high as possible. You’ll also need to hit a 16 Wisdom by level 20 in order to cast your highest level spells, so a periapt of wisdom will not go amiss.

You may want to go ahead and purchase a wand of whirling blade, especially in the earlier levels, to supplement your spell slots. And if you go down the UMD route, a wand of wraithstrike is an excellent alternative to spectral weapon. If that’s the case, an item of heroics is also great and can be used to access high level maneuvers and stances, and an item of enlarge person or polymorph can go a very long way toward keeping your trip attacks effective even at higher levels. You’ll also definitely want to look into a reliquary holy symbol and nightsticks if they’re available; I’ve never seen a ruby knight vindicator that says, “Yep, I’ve got enough turn attempts, don’t need any more.”



BUILD SUMMARY
With +19 BAB, 6th-level bard spells and 8th-level maneuvers, you should have plenty of options in combat. But let’s be real, you’re here for one thing and one thing only: the whirling blade of death.

With a sculpted Fell Weaken whirling blade, you can fling your weapon across a huge area, striking every enemy (but ignoring allies) within. You use your Charisma for both the attack roll and damage, and as it’s a two-handed weapon, that’s 1.5x returns on the Charisma damage. You can increase this damage further with sneak attack (you have multiple ways of triggering sneak attack and don’t mind the volley rules) and Power Attack. Every hit staggers the opponent, weakens them, dishes out negative levels, trips them and potentially prevents them from making AoOs. You can also force one opponent per round to then save or be dazed.

You also have numerous spells and maneuvers to increase your maneuverability and defensive prowess, including gems like greater mirror image, ruin delver’s fortune and one with shadow, and you can use divine impetus to bypass the standard one per round restriction on swift actions. And against the undead that are immune to many of your debuffs, you have several anti-undead options thanks to knight of the raven. You have serious utility options as well, including scrying, commune and shadow walk. You’re also a passable healer thanks to cure spells, restoration and healing hymn (not to mention martial spirit and the ability to make a ton of melee attacks every round).

VARIANTS
There were a LOT of scrapped ideas along the way with this build. Some of them could be incorporated into the current build structure without a huge rework. For example, defensive rebuke alongside a way of taking advantage of all the AoOs you’ll generate (Evasive Reflexes comes to mind) is a cool idea that could be expanded on. Another option is to develop even more negative effects to stack on, such as poison or Sickening Strike. Other negative effects usually restricted to melee attacks that can be tacked on include Brutal Strike (though this requires exotic weaponry) and Knock-Back. And if you have extra feats, Travel Devotion is a great way to move even when using a sculpted Fell Weaken whirling blade. Or look at feats like Divine Might to get your Charisma to damage yet again, or Craven to add on a sizable damage boost versus sneak attack-vulnerable foes.

As for more dramatic reworks, there are actually a lot of fun things you can do with a whirling blade-focused build beyond what we have here. By using warblade instead of crusader, you can do some interesting things with Stormguard Warrior; both combat rhythm and fight the horde can be triggered via your whirling blade, and effects like Death Devotion trigger on a successful hit regardless of damage dealt and therefore will still work alongside combat rhythm. WhamBamSam also developed an arcane version that uses sorcerer, jade phoenix mage and sacred exorcist that ends with 8th-level spells and gets access to wraithstrike without items. You do lose out on some neat options, most notably divine impetus and the shadow hand line for sneak attack/Staggering Strike, but 8th-level spells is hard to argue with. He also has yet another version that involves Knock Back and dungeoncrasher fighter. And he even started on yet ANOTHER build that takes advantage of the fact that any attack you make while your mount is charging counts as a charge to combine whirling blade with a razored shield to trigger Shield Charge and Shield Slam. (WhamBamSam is incredibly prolific...)

And moving away from Tome of Battle and/or bard entirely, I also have an arcane version that uses scout, unseen seer and Travel Devotion to move around and get accelerated skirmish damage on your sculpted whirling blades. And I have an Int-SAD factotum/chameleon version as well, using Intelligence instead of Charisma and taking advantage of brains over brawn to assist with tripping. Plus I have half a dozen abandoned build stubs involving everything from spellthief to Sword of the Arcane Order rangers.

***

And that’s that! Please let us know what you think in the comments. As for future I actually have a couple of other bards that I feel could be showcase-worthy, as well as an uncanny chameleon that focuses on being even more flexible than normal, a very savage warblade and an exalted archer who can sniff out evil.

PoeticallyPsyco
2019-02-25, 12:45 PM
This is pretty cool! Knock-Down is one of my favorite feats.

Just Caker
2019-02-25, 04:12 PM
I'm surprised to not see doomspeak as part of this build. Metamagic rod of quicken let's you fire off a doomspeak and a whirling blade in the same round. Is it because of the single target nature of the feat, or lack of uses of music?

Piggy Knowles
2019-02-25, 04:39 PM
I love Doomspeak, but its short duration means it’s really better for softening an enemy up for a save or lose rather than as a worthwhile debuff on its own. As impressive as its effects are, standard action single target debuff that only lasts a round just isn’t that interesting to a build like this, which doesn’t really have a way to take advantage of the brief but massive debuff.

That said, if you wanted to take this chassis but build it out as more of an enchanter, using the charm/dominate spells off the bard list, it would be worth its weight in gold.

Just Caker
2019-02-25, 08:42 PM
I love Doomspeak, but its short duration means it’s really better for softening an enemy up for a save or lose rather than as a worthwhile debuff on its own. As impressive as its effects are, standard action single target debuff that only lasts a round just isn’t that interesting to a build like this, which doesn’t really have a way to take advantage of the brief but massive debuff.

That said, if you wanted to take this chassis but build it out as more of an enchanter, using the charm/dominate spells off the bard list, it would be worth its weight in gold.

I suppose it would require a reshuffling of spells to really make it worthwhile. As it stands, it mostly exists as a way to soften up a target for bladeweave. Perhaps adding save based enchantments to the weapon would make it worthwhile, sudden stunning comes to mind. Between sudden strike, bladeweave, sudden stunning, and knock-down/improved trip, if doomspeak lands all of those in tandem can force multiple save-or-lose effects on a single target. Chances are, they aren't making the save if they have been softened up through doomspeak. I'd likely drop power attack if I went that route. Minimal change to the build as-is gives you a potent single target lockdown.

Thurbane
2019-02-25, 09:04 PM
Love it. Corvidae are pretty much my favourite animals...

Can you squeeze in some arcane caster levels for a raven familiar, and Binder to bind Malphas? :smalltongue:

Troacctid
2019-02-25, 09:13 PM
ACFs: Healing hymn, inspire awe
You should consider loresong. It synergizes well with inspire awe and can effectively make you tankier by giving you a bonus to key saving throws.


Crusader’s strike, charging minotaur, leading the attack, vanguard strike, douse the flames, martial spiritS
No stone bones? It's very powerful at low levels. I think it's better than douse the flames.


You can increase this damage further with sneak attack (you have multiple ways of triggering sneak attack and don’t mind the volley rules)
I get that you have almost-full BAB and can make multiple attacks that way, but I don't see how you're getting around this for whirling blade.

Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

For example, a 7th-level sorcerer/3rd-level rogue with Point Blank Shot makes a scorching ray attack at less than 30 feet (two rays, each requiring a ranged touch attack roll and dealing 4d6 points of fire damage). If the first ray hits, it deals 6d6+1 points of fire damage (4d6 normal + 2d6 sneak attack + 1 for Point Blank Shot), while each subsequent ray deals only 4d6 points of fire damage whether the first ray hits or not.

Just Caker
2019-02-26, 06:32 AM
I don't think I would consider whirling blade a weaponlike spell. It's a transmutation spell, with a focus of an actual weapon. You are simply modifying the weapon to be able to attack everyone in a line when you throw it, but it otherwise functions like a melee attack would.

EDIT: And in fact, Complete Arcane says that weaponlike spells deal damage as spells, not weapons. You are explicitly dealing damage with a weapon with whirling blade.

Zaq
2019-02-26, 08:37 AM
Excellent display as always, Piggy!

The one thing that concerns me is the extremely heavy reliance on bard spells. You don’t get that many per day, especially with an interrupted spell progression. Is the plan pretty much to rely on maneuvers when you need to conserve spell slots?

Piggy Knowles
2019-02-26, 11:02 AM
You should consider loresong. It synergizes well with inspire awe and can effectively make you tankier by giving you a bonus to key saving throws.


No stone bones? It's very powerful at low levels. I think it's better than douse the flames.


I get that you have almost-full BAB and can make multiple attacks that way, but I don't see how you're getting around this for whirling blade.

Re: stone bones and loresong, that's not a bad idea at all. I think originally I'd planned on having a bigger white raven focus in my maneuver selection, and nabbed douse the flames to ease qualifications, but then ended up going a different direction down the road.

As for the rest... Hm. Is whirling blade actually a weaponlike spell, or just a spell that changes the conditions for when you can make an attack (such as haste or snake's swiftness or arrow storm)? I had never considered it one, but I just read the definition in Rules Compendium and I see that they actually define weaponlike spells as broadly as "any spell that requires an attack roll." The spell just says to make a normal melee attack against each enemy in the area; does this qualify in the same way that something like scorching ray, which requires a ranged touch to hit, qualifies?

For what it's worth I was mostly going off of the volley rule on page 42 of the Rules Compendium:


A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

My thought was that while whirling blade wouldn't be treated as a weaponlike spell in the same way that, say, scorching ray is, it would still run afoul of the volley rule, at least until you change the casting time to a full-round action. But again, I hadn't realized that they defined a weaponlike spell so incredibly broadly. (Again, does this mean that snake's swiftness or arrow storm is a weaponlike spell?) If that's the case, it makes sense to drop Staggering Strike from the build and replace assassin's stance. I did list some other feat options in variants that didn't quite make the cut, but if nothing else, bump Power Attack early and maybe take Fell Drain last for even more negative level stacking.

And as I’m writing this up I realize I’m kind of trying to eat my cake and have it too. If whirling blade isn’t a weaponlike spell and just provides new conditions under which you can attack, then Fell Weaken might not work with it, since the spell itself isn’t damaging anyone. Extend Spell is an easy swap in that case.


Excellent display as always, Piggy!

The one thing that concerns me is the extremely heavy reliance on bard spells. You don’t get that many per day, especially with an interrupted spell progression. Is the plan pretty much to rely on maneuvers when you need to conserve spell slots?

Glad you like it!

I did mention in the items section that wands will go a long way toward making sure you can spam your favorite spell constantly (especially in the mid-levels). That said, you're not actually that interrupted compared to a regular bard, with 16 effective levels of casting. With a 26 Charisma, that's 6/6/5/5/3/1 for your spells per day for 1st- through 6th-level spells. Most of your 3rd- and 4th-level spells should be pretty much exclusively going to metamagic'd forms of whirling blade, giving you 10 castings per day without tapping into special items or using higher level spells to access, plus you can always fall back on your 2nd-level spell slots for non-metamagic'd versions (though I mostly would save those slots for things like bladeweave). If your spell slots get eaten up by utility casting or buff spells, of course, that number is lower... but you should still realistically be able to toss out a couple of whirling blades every combat before needing to resort to items. And for the rest of the time? Well, you're still a ruby knight vindicator with decent Strength, +19 BAB and a big fat melee weapon, and all of your whirling blade tricks work just fine when you swing your sword the old-fashioned way, too.

Also, since I wrote them up, I might as well show some of the variants I made. Here are some alternate versions that almost got showcased instead:


THE INT-SAD TRIPPER
1 Factotum1- Able Learner, Fell Drain
2 Factotum2-
3 Fighter1- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
4 Factotum3-
5 Warblade1-
6 Fighter2- Knock-down, Power Attack
7 Chameleon1-
8 Chameleon2-
9 Chameleon3- Sculpt Spell (take Arcane Thesis with floating feat)
10 Chameleon4-
11 Chameleon5-
12 Chameleon6- Arcane Thesis (whirling blade) (take Twin Spell with floating feat)
13 Chameleon7-
14 Chameleon8-
15 Chameleon9- Twin Spell (take Residual Magic with floating feat)
16 Chameleon10-
17 Warblade2-
18 Warblade3- Residual Magic (take Fell Weaken with floating feat)
19 Warblade4-
20 Warblade5- Improved Initiative

SUMMARY: Go with an Int-based caster that relies on brains over brawn to get Int to tripping, augmented even further by spells like enlarge person and polymorph. Activate wraithstrike and Power Attack for full with your whirling blade, applying metamagic like Twin Spell to shoot off multiple versions a round. To take advantage of the numerous attacks made each round, this build relied on a falchion (augmented with a scabbard of keen edges) and the blood in the water stance.

OTHER THOUGHTS: If you're not playing with multiclassing penalties, Factotum 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Chameleon 10/Warblade +5 hits higher level maneuvers and has a cleaner progression overall.

THE SKIRMISHER
1 Scout1- Able Learner, Darkstalker
2 Sorcerer1-
3 Sorcerer2- Extend Spell
4 Sorcerer3-
5 Sorcerer4-
6 Unseen Seer1- Sculpt Spell
7 Unseen Seer2- Silent Spell
8 Unseen Seer3-
9 Unseen Seer4- Travel Devotion
10 Unseen Seer5-
11 Unseen Seer6-
12 Sacred Exorcist1- Twin Spell
13 Unseen Seer7-
14 Unseen Seer8-
15 Unseen Seer9- Arcane Thesis (whirling blade)
16 Unseen Seer10-
17 Mindbender1-
18 Sacred Exorcist2- Mindsight
19 Sacred Exorcist3-
20 Sacred Exorcist4-

SUMMARY: Casts as a 19th-level sorcerer and really darn close to being Charisma-SAD. Just focuses on being really stealth-heavy (augmented by spells, of course), staying mobile via Travel Devotion, and firing off twinned sculpted whirling blades that hit everyone and deal skirmish damage. Wraithstrike comes in to make up for the low BAB. Kind of a fun build, but honestly whacking everyone on the battlefield twice with +5d6 skirmish damage is about the tamest thing a 19th-level sorcerer could choose to do.

ARCANE STRIKE
1 Crusader1- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2 Sorcerer1-
3 Sorcerer2- Power Attack
4 Sorcerer3-
5 Sorcerer4-
6 Jade Phoenix Mage1- Knock-down
7 Spellsword1-
8 Jade Phoenix Mage2-
9 Jade Phoenix Mage3- Combat Casting
10 Jade Phoenix Mage4-
11 Jade Phoenix Mage5-
12 Abjurant Champion1- Arcane Strike
13 Abjurant Champion2-
14 Abjurant Champion3-
15 Sacred Exorcist1- Divine Might
16 Abjurant Champion4-
17 Abjurant Champion5-
18 Sacred Exorcist2- Twin Spell
19 Sacred Exorcist3-
20 Sacred Exorcist4-

SUMMARY: Another gish, this one of a more traditional bent. This one uses Arcane Strike alongside Power Attack to deal some decent extra damage alongside wraithstrike and whirling blade. +17 BAB and 9th-level spells is hard to argue with, although it's mostly a pretty straightforward gish in the end.

WhamBamSam
2019-02-26, 04:57 PM
WhamBamSam also developed an arcane version that uses sorcerer, jade phoenix mage and sacred exorcist that ends with 8th-level spells and gets access to wraithstrike without items. You do lose out on some neat options, most notably divine impetus and the shadow hand line for sneak attack/Staggering Strike, but 8th-level spells is hard to argue with. He also has yet another version that involves Knock Back and dungeoncrasher fighter. And he even started on yet ANOTHER build that takes advantage of the fact that any attack you make while your mount is charging counts as a charge to combine whirling blade with a razored shield to trigger Shield Charge and Shield Slam. (WhamBamSam is incredibly prolific...)Whirling Blade is indeed one of my favorite spells and I've done a lot of mucking around with it, both generally and in the discussion surrounding this build. I can hammer out full stubs if people are interested, but for now, here's the general idea for those builds.

The Sorcerer/JPM can actually achieve 9th level spells, though it requires the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (and hence being a kobold) to do so. It's largely Arcane Thesis-based rather than using melee debuffs (apart from Death Devotion), but it does have other fun tricks, like Defensive Rebuke+Empowered Fell Drain Ghostly Tail, and Fell Drain Blade of Blood. This was also actually the build that I was considering the razored shield for, as I wanted to use the Devoted Spirit shield maneuvers.

The Knock-back stub is something like Primordial Half-Giant Factotum 3/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Marshal 1/Dungeon Crasher Fighter +4. It requires either a flaw for Human Heritage or the variant rule in Races of Destiny that gives the Human subtype to half-human creatures to work, but I'm still quite fond of it, and have been looking for an opportunity to play it in a real game for a while. One of my favorite tricks that it pulls off is the ability to use the lower level Wall of Stone off the Trapsmith list with a Least Rod of Quicken to set up Dungeon Crashing.

I hadn't actually mentioned Shield Charge or Shield Slam in my musings on the mounted gish, but they're good ideas, and perhaps more interesting than just continually failing to find a way to make a lance count as a slashing weapon for Whirling Blade with standard Spirited Charge optimization like I had been doing. Anyway, my rough idea for the build is Sha'ir based, going into Ordained Champion 3/Zhentarim Skymage 5 for a cool Cha-synergistic mount and channeling with the free move action you've got in the saddle, and continuing into some cocktail of further casting progression beyond that. I'd like to do a Prestige Paladin dip, among other things, but I'd need to look up affiliation rules to see if that's going to create a problem with respect to Zhentarim membership.

Seerow
2019-02-26, 07:46 PM
I hadn't actually mentioned Shield Charge or Shield Slam in my musings on the mounted gish, but they're good ideas, and perhaps more interesting than just continually failing to find a way to make a lance count as a slashing weapon for Whirling Blade with standard Spirited Charge optimization like I had been doing. Anyway, my rough idea for the build is Sha'ir based, going into Ordained Champion 3/Zhentarim Skymage 5 for a cool Cha-synergistic mount and channeling with the free move action you've got in the saddle, and continuing into some cocktail of further casting progression beyond that. I'd like to do a Prestige Paladin dip, among other things, but I'd need to look up affiliation rules to see if that's going to create a problem with respect to Zhentarim membership.



This is actually the variant of the build I'd be most interested in fleshing out. Getting a Valorous Bashing Razor Shield that you throw two-handed while counting as charging seems like a great way to take uber-charging shenanigans and add massive AoE plus control simultaneously.

I actually was unaware of the rule that you can treat any attack made while mounted as a charge as long as the mount is charging. Can this also be used to proc leap attack, battle jump, and the other similar power attack multipliers? Genuinely curious how much of this could reasonably be squeezed into one build. I may take a shot at it over the weekend, but my interest is definitely piqued.

WhamBamSam
2019-02-26, 11:00 PM
This is actually the variant of the build I'd be most interested in fleshing out. Getting a Valorous Bashing Razor Shield that you throw two-handed while counting as charging seems like a great way to take uber-charging shenanigans and add massive AoE plus control simultaneously.

I actually was unaware of the rule that you can treat any attack made while mounted as a charge as long as the mount is charging. Can this also be used to proc leap attack, battle jump, and the other similar power attack multipliers? Genuinely curious how much of this could reasonably be squeezed into one build. I may take a shot at it over the weekend, but my interest is definitely piqued.Here's the relevant quote...


If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

You can't do a lot of the charge things on a mounted charge because you yourself aren't doing the charge part of the charge, even if you are treated as charging. For instance, you can't jump to trigger leap attack (even if your mount jumps, you didn't and there aren't analogous rules to those for mounted charging for mounted jumping). Battle Jump seems sketchy too, but might work if both the mount and rider have it so that the mount can count as charging while dropping.

Seerow
2019-02-27, 07:31 PM
Here's the relevant quote...



You can't do a lot of the charge things on a mounted charge because you yourself aren't doing the charge part of the charge, even if you are treated as charging. For instance, you can't jump to trigger leap attack (even if your mount jumps, you didn't and there aren't analogous rules to those for mounted charging for mounted jumping). Battle Jump seems sketchy too, but might work if both the mount and rider have it so that the mount can count as charging while dropping.

Agreed, based on the wording Battle Jump should be applicable. Looking up other tricks usually used by chargers, Power Lunge seems applicable. Headlong Rush got recommended in a couple of mounted charge discussions but as far as I can tell doesn't actually work because the charge has to be a headlong rush to get the benefit, and for that your mount would need to have it... so unless you're an orc mounted on a bigger orc, doesn't work (though this IS sounding like the basis for a far more entertaining variant of the build).


Edit: Another thought just occurred to me that could help with the original intent if you want to go for massive damage instead of control through the shield/shield bash. Versatile unarmed strike lets you change the damage type of your unarmed strike. Get a Lance with the Aptitude property. Since Versatile Unarmed Strike is a feat that affects a specific type of weapon (unarmed strikes), it may now affect your Aptitude Lance to make it count as slashing.

Edit2: Actually by the same line of thought Spirited Charge gives a x3 Charge Multiplier for lances as a part of the feat benefit. I feel like there's a RAW argument here for using Spirited Charge x3 with any weapon, including a Razored Shield. Or instead using Shield Slam with the lance.

WhamBamSam
2019-02-27, 08:43 PM
Agreed, based on the wording Battle Jump should be applicable. Looking up other tricks usually used by chargers, Power Lunge seems applicable. Headlong Rush got recommended in a couple of mounted charge discussions but as far as I can tell doesn't actually work because the charge has to be a headlong rush to get the benefit, and for that your mount would need to have it... so unless you're an orc mounted on a bigger orc, doesn't work (though this IS sounding like the basis for a far more entertaining variant of the build).Power Lunge should work, and it's sort of nifty that Whirling Blade can nullify the drawback of provoking an AoO by attacking from outside opponents' reach and the Str x2 it adds might get converted to being Cha-based instead.

I'm split of Headlong Rush. You do take the normal penalties for charging while the mount is charging, so you might be able to declare a Headlong Rush while your mount is charging, but it's pretty sketchy. Needing to be an orc is also a little annoying as a gish, but Desert Half-Orc is thing. If you and the mount both need to be orcs, you can always ride your Druid friend, but they'll often have better things to do than charge.


Edit: Another thought just occurred to me that could help with the original intent if you want to go for massive damage instead of control through the shield/shield bash. Versatile unarmed strike lets you change the damage type of your unarmed strike. Get a Lance with the Aptitude property. Since Versatile Unarmed Strike is a feat that affects a specific type of weapon (unarmed strikes), it may now affect your Aptitude Lance to make it count as slashing.Aptitude Lance+Versatile Unarmed Strike was actually something I was considering, but we thought it a little inelegant for a showcase. It's also a two feat chain, though the Shield Slam line is three, so that's not a big deal.

Seerow
2019-02-27, 08:52 PM
Power Lunge should work, and it's sort of nifty that Whirling Blade can nullify the drawback of provoking an AoO by attacking from outside opponents' reach and the Str x2 it adds might get converted to being Cha-based instead.

I'm split of Headlong Rush. You do take the normal penalties for charging while the mount is charging, so you might be able to declare a Headlong Rush while your mount is charging, but it's pretty sketchy. Needing to be an orc is also a little annoying as a gish, but Desert Half-Orc is thing.

I actually wasn't aware of that variant, +2 con/-2 int is a much better stat line, especially since you will be aiming to be as Cha SAD as possible (at least for offense). I like it.


If you and the mount both need to be orcs, you can always ride your Druid friend, but they'll often have better things to do than charge.

For this I was actually imagining orc riding enlarged orc with an exotic saddle, if only because it would make for a funnier image for a showcase. But yes, Druid is more practical.


Aptitude Lance+Versatile Unarmed Strike was actually something I was considering, but we thought it a little inelegant for a showcase. It's also a two feat chain, though the Shield Slam line is three, so that's not a big deal.

I actually made a second edit as you were posting, considering the reverse: Spirited Charge gives the x3 charge multiplier as a part of the feat as a benefit for wielding a lance. Since you want Spirited Charge in the mounted build anyway, it's more elegant since you have benefits regardless of Magic Items gained... but then once you get an adaptive shield it's a nice 50% damage spike.

rrwoods
2019-02-28, 12:18 PM
How did I miss two of these?! Love this series. I guess having three to read at once is like an unexpected present :)

Piggy you mentioned swapping in Extend Spell if Fell Weaken is off the table due to rulings. What are you Extending though? Whirling Blade itself can’t be modified by Extend since it’s instantaneous; are you recommending Extend for more “usual” general uses? (I don’t play casters much so excuse the ignorance on how they’re typically optimized!)

EDIT: also, Assassin’s Stance is available to you at RKV 1, it’s surprising to want to delay it for so many levels in favor of child of shadow.

... oh no it’s not, as you don’t have another SH maneuver yet. I’d be tempted to make Martial Study my level 6 feat, picking up almost any SH maneuver, to make this happen.

WhamBamSam
2019-02-28, 01:03 PM
Valorous Aptitude Razored Shield is probably the way to go, yeah.

Here's a stub as a starting point. The two feats at Ordained Champion 1 are from trading out the granted powers from the Knowledge and Wrath domains. I'm still staying away from Battle Jump and Headlong Rush, though the former would slot in well as the last feat, and a Desert Half-Orc could be built toward the latter with basically the same stub if you can get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole. Also a little bit problematic, in that it uses a very Faerun PrC, but the only deity that seems to grant the appropriate domains (War, Wrath, and Death) is Eberron's Dark Six pantheon. Could afford to lose one more caster level and still hit 9ths if there's something particularly cool that necessitates it.

Human Sha’ir 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ordained Champ 3/Zhentarim Skymage 5/Sha’ir +1/Abjurant Champ 5/Spellsword 1/Sha'ir +1
1. Sha’ir 1 – Combat Casting, Iron Will
2. Sha’ir 2
3. Sha’ir 3 – Power Attack
4. Cloistered Cleric 1 (War, Death, Knowledge) – Weapon Focus, Death Devotion
5. Ordained Champ 1 (Wrath) – Mounted Combat, Improved Shield Bash
6. Ordained Champ 2 – Shield Charge, Diehard
7. Ordained Champ 3
8. Skymage 1
9. Skymage 2 – Ride-By Attack, Craft Wand, Shield Slam
10. Skymage 3 – Spell Focus
11. Skymage 4 – Spirited Charge, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
12. Skymage 5 – Enlarge Spell, Sculpt Spell
13. 13. Sha’ir 4
14. Abjurant Champ 1
15. Abjurant Champ 2 – Power Lunge
16. Abjurant Champ 3
17. Abjurant Champ 4
18. Abjurant Champ 5 – ???
19. Spellsword 1
20. Sha’ir 5

Piggy Knowles
2019-02-28, 01:53 PM
How did I miss two of these?! Love this series. I guess having three to read at once is like an unexpected present :)

Piggy you mentioned swapping in Extend Spell if Fell Weaken is off the table due to rulings. What are you Extending though? Whirling Blade itself can’t be modified by Extend since it’s instantaneous; are you recommending Extend for more “usual” general uses? (I don’t play casters much so excuse the ignorance on how they’re typically optimized!)

EDIT: also, Assassin’s Stance is available to you at RKV 1, it’s surprising to want to delay it for so many levels in favor of child of shadow.

... oh no it’s not, as you don’t have another SH maneuver yet. I’d be tempted to make Martial Study my level 6 feat, picking up almost any SH maneuver, to make this happen.

You’ll extend any of your buff spells. You need a metamagic feat that lacks pre-reqs to qualify for Sculpt Spell (which I find almost essential), and Extend is likely the one that you’ll get the most mileage out of if the Fell feats are ruled to not work with your whirling blade.

If you wanted to drop Death Devotion in favor of getting assassin’s stance early, you could take Martial Study at 6 for cloak of deception and move Extend Spell/Fell Weaken to 9.

rrwoods
2019-02-28, 03:12 PM
Ah I totally missed that Sculpt had a prereq, makes sense. Thanks for the response :)

Uncle Pine
2019-03-01, 10:49 AM
I like the various ideas (and theme!) behind the build a lot, but I see one key issue: whirling blade isn't sculptable. Sculpt Spell can only be applied to area spells, but whirling blade is a spell with "Effect: 60-ft. line" rather than "Area: 60-ft. line".

Just Caker
2019-03-01, 01:21 PM
I like the various ideas (and theme!) behind the build a lot, but I see one key issue: whirling blade isn't sculptable. Sculpt Spell can only be applied to area spells, but whirling blade is a spell with "Effect: 60-ft. line" rather than "Area: 60-ft. line".

This seems to be a disfunction, rather than intended, based on the description of effect in the SRD:


Effect
Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range.

Whirling blade is certainly affecting something that is already present.

In fact, the only two options under effect are Ray and Spread. It says nothing about lines. Just below effect however is area, which explicitly mentions lines. And the fact that the example spell that is used in the description of Sculpt Spell is Lightning Bolt, which is also a line.

Piggy Knowles
2019-03-01, 02:24 PM
I like the various ideas (and theme!) behind the build a lot, but I see one key issue: whirling blade isn't sculptable. Sculpt Spell can only be applied to area spells, but whirling blade is a spell with "Effect: 60-ft. line" rather than "Area: 60-ft. line".

That’s... huh. That is a very good point. I suspect it’s a case of poor editing somewhere, but you’re absolutely right that it doesn’t work. Giving up Sculpt is tough (a 60’ line is a pretty huge area but won’t catch the entire battlefield like Sculpt Spell can), but it does mean you have a spare feat. If neither Sculpt Spell nor Fell Weaken are ruled to work at your table, my suggestion would be to nab a cheap metamagic like Still Spell so that you can still extend the casting time to a full round action when necessary, and then use the remaining feat on Martial Study to bring assassin’s stance and Staggering Strike online sooner.

WhamBamSam
2019-03-01, 03:41 PM
Seems pedantic to me, and as Just Caker says, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) for spell descriptions suggest that a line is an area and not one of the possibilities for the "Effect" description category.

If Whirling Blade is ruled to be an area spell, it can be used with Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow, which is pretty funny.

Uncle Pine
2019-03-01, 03:59 PM
This seems to be a disfunction, rather than intended, based on the description of effect in the SRD:



Whirling blade is certainly affecting something that is already present.

In fact, the only two options under effect are Ray and Spread. It says nothing about lines. Just below effect however is area, which explicitly mentions lines. And the fact that the example spell that is used in the description of Sculpt Spell is Lightning Bolt, which is also a line.
I wouldn't consider "ray and spread" to be an exhaustive list of ways effect lines can manifest. Blade barrier, call lightning, flaming sphere, gust of wind, illusory wall, Leomund's tiny hut, Otiluke's resilient/telekinetic sphere, and prismatic sphere/wall are all example of SRD spells that have no area line but whose effect is expressed in things other than rays and spreads (some are actually spheres and lines).
Lightning bolt, on the other hand, is in fact a spell with Area: 120-ft. line.


That’s... huh. That is a very good point. I suspect it’s a case of poor editing somewhere, but you’re absolutely right that it doesn’t work. Giving up Sculpt is tough (a 60’ line is a pretty huge area but won’t catch the entire battlefield like Sculpt Spell can), but it does mean you have a spare feat. If neither Sculpt Spell nor Fell Weaken are ruled to work at your table, my suggestion would be to nab a cheap metamagic like Still Spell so that you can still extend the casting time to a full round action when necessary, and then use the remaining feat on Martial Study to bring assassin’s stance and Staggering Strike online sooner.
I don't see any reason for which Fell Weaken wouldn't work with wirling blade (since the spell explicitly deals damage), which at least leaves the option of dishing out several negative levels a round - albeit only against enemies lined up like domino pieces.

rrwoods
2019-03-01, 06:07 PM
The spell explicitly has the weapon deal damage. Whether that means “the spell deals damage” is up to interpretation.

ExLibrisMortis
2019-03-01, 09:24 PM
A very similar build (in terms of level breakdown) is in my signature, but you take it in a totally different direction, which is really cool. Still, I have to wonder why in all four variants posted, you didn't consider the DFI + whirling blade option :smalltongue:.

If "Deity: Wee Jas" is interpreted more strictly, you might need to be within one step of Wee Jas' alignment (LN), which would conflict with bard and Knight of the Raven. I guess divine bards aren't clerics, though, so it shouldn't be an issue normally.

Troacctid
2019-03-01, 10:54 PM
I don't see any reason for which Fell Weaken wouldn't work with wirling blade (since the spell explicitly deals damage), which at least leaves the option of dishing out several negative levels a round - albeit only against enemies lined up like domino pieces.
Fell Weaken doesn't give negative levels. You're thinking of Fell Drain.

Zaq
2019-03-01, 11:12 PM
Seems pedantic to me, and as Just Caker says, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) for spell descriptions suggest that a line is an area and not one of the possibilities for the "Effect" description category.

If Whirling Blade is ruled to be an area spell, it can be used with Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow, which is pretty funny.

I love how incredibly janky the actual spell rules are when you get down to it. Very, very few devs realized how the rules for spells really worked. It's extremely common to find broken spells with areas greater than their ranges (hey, guess what, by RAW, "If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range)), bard spells without Verbal components, extremely confusing Effect/Area mix-ups, and so on. And that's before getting into how many parts of the spell rules are significantly less well-defined than most folks (especially the devs) think they are.

I mean, they really are kind of unnecessarily complex, so it's not in any way surprising that the rules are so janky. To be honest, I'm not actually sure why the "Effect" rules even exist, considering how many spells just plain don't have an Effect line and don't need one. (Not just ones that have an Area line, either.) I guess the Effect rules are maybe kinda-sorta intended to take the place of a Target line or an Area line? I guess?