Help with my 9th Level Gish (3.5)

[Allanimal]

So for our next D&D session, two players can't make it, so the rest of us decided to play a sort of one-shot with new characters that we had always wanted to play but never had the chance. It was decided to go with 9th level (Why? In the campaign we are currently playing, we are at 8th, but I pushed for the extra level so we could get the 9th level feat).

I've always wanted to play a Gish, and I have studied the Gish handbook, but it is geared towards the higher levels and is less helpful at 9th. So I'm asking the playground to help with a couple things.

There are some house rules, the most important are:
* 32 point buy. At 4th and 8th level, we don't get an additional +1 to a stat, but an additional +4 points of point buy. 18->19 costs 4 points. 19->20 costs 4 points.
* No racial ability bonuses, every race gets a bonus feat. Humans get extra stuff they don't normally get, but it is irrelevant (just wait).
* Effectively, everyone gets +1 skill point/level (*4 at 1st) in a class skill
* Allowed books are core + phb2 + "races of" books + complete books (- champion and psionic) + Spell Compendium + Magic Item Compendium
* No Psionics
* Fractional BAB
* No Evil characters
* Early entry shenanigans will probably not be allowed.

There are some other things, but nothing that I believe is relevant to this.

What this means: Luminous armor is out. This is so often considered a given in the Gish handbook, but no dice. Therefore I am looking at a dwarf with Runesmith to get me heavy armor proficiency.

I also really like the flavour of the Wu Jen, with its handful of flavourful unique spells. So I want that as my main caster class. I have permission to add SpC spells to the Wu Jen list as suggested on p.4. I need to ask about Wraithstrike, however. So at the moment, assume it doesn't work.

I am liking the idea of Duskblade to get the heavy armor proficiency for runesmith, plus the martial weapon proficiency and combat casting for Abjurant Champion. The INT synergy is a plus.

So, I have three potential build ideas, each with pros and cons.
1) Duskblade 3 / Wu Jen 3 / Runesmith 1 / Abjurant Champion 2. Pros: Duskblade channeling. BAB: 7. Swift Abjuration. Cons: Only 3rd level Wu Jen Spells.
2) Duskblade 2 / Wu Jen 5 / Runesmith 1 / Abjurant Champion 1. Pros: 4th level Wu Jen Spells Cons: BAB: 6
3) Duskblade 2 / Wu Jen 4 / Runesmith 3 Pros: 4th level Wu Jen Spells, Runesmith Share Runes Cons: BAB: 5, No Abjurant Champion

The 3rd level Wu Jen spell secret will most likely be shield + extend. With Abjurant Champion, the duration is doubled twice (does that mean 3x listed in D&D multiplication math)

I don't think I like 3 - I think the benefits of even one level of Abjurant champion outweighs Runesmith's share runes.

So... At 9th level, are 4th level spells enough to offset the loss of BAB, Arcane Channeling and swift abjuration? I know a straight up Wizard/Wu Jen would be slinging 5ths, so being limited to 3rds is a bit of a burden.


Featwise, I'm a bit up in the air.
1)
B) Scribe Scroll (Prereq for Runesmith)
DB2) Combat Casting (Prereq for Abjurant Champion)
3)
Wu Jen Bonus Metamagic Feat: Extend (open for suggestions here)
6)
9)

Thoughts on Feats:
--> If I went with the built that got me 4th level spells, I would consider Arcane Disciple so I could pick up Divine Power, but there is no way to persist it at this level, so not sure if it is that great. But it would mean WIS is not longer a dump stat...
--> Power attack is always a good option, but not sure.
--> Arcane Strike is considered a required feat for Duskblade, but not sure if it is really a good option.
--> Spell Focus + Metamagic School Focus would be nice to be able to extend for free, but not sure which school to choose. Transmutation? Abjuration?
--> Vengeful Spirit is a Wu Jen exclusive feat that could be fun for a one-shot. But only if there are feat slots left over.
--> Minor Shapeshift would be cool, but only works on the build with 4ths.
--> Improved Initative because I was planning on putting 10 in Dex...
--> Practiced Spellcaster to boost CL. Not needed if I'm mainly buffing, but since some of the fun Wu Jen spells have saves, I should do it. Especially since I probably can't INT 18 at level 1.

Any other thoughts about good feats?

What are some of the good long-duration buffs I should be considering at this level. What I see right off:
-> Heart of Air
-> Heart of Water
-> Heart of Earth (If 4th level spells build)
-> (Greater) Magic Weapon
-> Endure Elements (Abjuration = 2 day buff!)
-> Protection from Arrows (Abjuration = 20 hours buff!)
-> Servant Horde is amusing

So, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this. Especially opinions are if the 4th's are worth the loss of channeling. I do want to be able to wade into melee with the Scout/Ranger/Dervish my wife is playing. The other character I'm not sure about, but the player always likes ranged combat, so probably an archer. Maybe she'll surprise us with a warlock. The GM will probably give us a healbot cleric to control as we see fit (so it's not a GMPC, really, and probably can't expect too much optimisation in the build). But I will be the only arcane caster (as far as I know) and want to make sure I have the bases covered.

Thanks for your help!!

[Eldariel]

The fun Wu Jen stuff comes so late unfortunately it really isn't worth it. That said, you can of course make it work and it might be more interesting that way.

First, like to point out that Greater Mage Armor is a 3rd level spell for +6 AC in Spell Compendium, which makes heavy armor look kinda silly on this level (Polymorph and its ilk allow acquiring a fair Dex score). Not to mention, your best defenses are still spells like (Greater) Mage Armor, Lesser Celerity and company. If you want to go for it anyways, Wu Jen 5/Runesmith 1 definitely seems like the way to go. Getting 5th level spells is a bit hard with this setup: you'd basically have to just go Gish with stats and cast Divine Power if you wanted more BAB. It's not the worst: you could Arcane Strike for +5/+5d4, which makes up for all the BAB lost anyways but you'd lose out on the iterative so you would be best served with natural weapons. I do think you want Arcane Strike as it's a free action to use so it kinda goes well with everything else you're doing. Your actions are quite precious.


Far as spells go, False Life is nice. Alter Self too. Resist Energy is never bad, neither is Magic Circle against Evil, and so on. It's the usual fare, really. The combat spells are a more interesting topic. Spell carriers change the kind of spells (and metamagic) you want a fair bit but of course, just buffing and bashing is a more than valid way of going about it too. Do you have any plan on whether you want to mix offensive spells in, or? It's probably a good idea to have at least some fallback options.

[Allanimal]

The fun Wu Jen stuff comes so late unfortunately it really isn't worth it. That said, you can of course make it work and it might be more interesting that way.

I know the *really* cool stuff comes later. But there is enough “neat” stuff early on for me to try. So, I want to make Wu Jen work. While this is for a one-off, I’m hoping we could pull these characters out in the future if a similar situation arises again.


If you want to go for it anyways, Wu Jen 5/Runesmith 1 definitely seems like the way to go. Getting 5th level spells is a bit hard with this setup: you'd basically have to just go Gish with stats and cast Divine Power if you wanted more BAB. It's not the worst: you could Arcane Strike for +5/+5d4, which makes up for all the BAB lost anyways but you'd lose out on the iterative so you would be best served with natural weapons. I do think you want Arcane Strike as it's a free action to use so it kinda goes well with everything else you're doing. Your actions are quite precious.

Interesting... Divine Power would only be doable 1/day, and not last long since persist won’t be an option, unless there is some way to reduce the cost significantly.



Spell carriers change the kind of spells (and metamagic) you want a fair bit but of course, just buffing and bashing is a more than valid way of going about it too. Do you have any plan on whether you want to mix offensive spells in, or? It's probably a good idea to have at least some fallback options.

Was thinking of the buff ‘n’ bash route. But want to have some utility for fallback. Those might come in the form of a huge pile of scrolls. :)
As a one-off, the DM said we would be doing a combat-heavy session, but no idea what we will be up against yet.
Was hoping to have a few all-day (well, 9 hours or 18 with extend) buffs going, when we get into combat, hit the party with haste, Swift action (if abjurant Champion 2) shield myself and Sprinkle in other buffs or BFC as needed. Then wade in to the melee. if they haven’t come to me already :)

Ok so it sounds like 4th level spells is the way to go...

[Kurald Galain]

Ask your DM to allow the Magus class from Pathfinder. It is the most straightforward build and the most effective gish at the level you're playing at.

That said, out of the builds you mention. Abjurant Champion isn't great with dusky or wu jen, due to their general lack of good combat abjuration spells (aside from Shield, of course); and Runesmith isn't great either (because sharing spells is just not worth a +2 level increase, and most good buff spells can already be cast on others). You want arcane channeling as a gish, but other than that the duskblade class doesn't offer much.

So I'd go with duskblade 3 / wu jen 5; and level up as wu jen. Higher level spells are good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

(does that mean 3x listed in D&D multiplication math)No, it'll be quadrupled, because duration is a real-world value.

I think duskblade is pointless here, unless you go full duskblade and just Arcane Strike/Power Attack/Channel Spell on everything. For a self-buffing gish, the loss of 4ths and 5ths is pretty bad.
Wu Jen gishes generally benefit from two unique abilities: giant size and body outside body. At level 9, you get neither of these. Wu Jen is also a little slower to qualify for Runesmith (no Scribe Scroll, no bonus feat at level 5).


Something like Wu Jen 5/Ruathar 2/Sacred Exorcist 2 would be able to pick up DMM:Persist at level 9. Unfortunately, draconic polymorph--my go-to single Persistent spell--is not a Wu Jen spell and does not appear on any domain list.

A Divine Magician cleric gish would be able to Persist draconic polymorph, as would a wizard/sacred exorcist. The cleric would also have +6 base attack.

Edit: draconic polymorph is listed in the Spell Compendium, but the actual spell is in the Draconomicon. I guess that means it's not allowed. You can Persist polymorph by using Reach Spell, but then you need a metamagic reducer to stick it in a 5th-level slot.

[Eldariel]

No, it'll be quadrupled, because duration is a real-world value.

I think duskblade is pointless here, unless you go full duskblade and just Arcane Strike/Power Attack/Channel Spell on everything. For a self-buffing gish, the loss of 4ths and 5ths is pretty bad.
Wu Jen gishes generally benefit from two unique abilities: giant size and body outside body. At level 9, you get neither of these. Wu Jen is also a little slower to qualify for Runesmith (no Scribe Scroll, no bonus feat at level 5).


Something like Wu Jen 5/Ruathar 2/Sacred Exorcist 2 would be able to pick up DMM:Persist at level 9. Unfortunately, draconic polymorph--my go-to single Persistent spell--is not a Wu Jen spell and does not appear on any domain list.

A Divine Magician cleric gish would be able to Persist draconic polymorph, as would a wizard/sacred exorcist. The cleric would also have +6 base attack.

Edit: draconic polymorph is listed in the Spell Compendium, but the actual spell is in the Draconomicon. I guess that means it's not allowed. You can Persist polymorph by using Reach Spell, but then you need a metamagic reducer to stick it in a 5th-level slot.

Sadly Divine Metamagic errata specifies that it can only be applied to divine spells so you need to jump through some hoops (Southern Magician, Alternate Source Spell) that are not available here to apply it to Wu Jen spells (easily, anyways). Other than that, I mostly agree.

It's worth noting that Duskblade 2/Wu Jen 3/Runesmith 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2 is also possible by these rules and gets 4th level spells and 7 BAB, which is not terrible all things considered (though I do prefer other martial levels to Duskblade in this setup).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sadly Divine Metamagic errata specifies that it can only be applied to divine spells so you need to jump through some hoops (Southern Magician, Alternate Source Spell) that are not available here to apply it to Wu Jen spells (easily, anyways). Other than that, I mostly agree.
Oh Errata, thou hast struck down so many, and yet thy slaughter continues unabated! :smallfrown:

Umm, yeah. Looks like the only way to get Persistomancy is a cleric gish, then.


It's a shame CChamp isn't in play, because replacing those duskblade levels with pouncebarian 1 would be sweet. As it is, I don't think the available melee dips are that good, and I'd rather just go wu jen 5/ruathar 2/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 1 (+6 bab, 5th-level spells).

If you can get some form of early entry (Earth Spell and all that, takes three feats), you can even do wu jen 3/ruathar 3/runesmith 1/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 1, but that doesn't hit +7 base attack, so it's pretty pointless. The only upside is that you get some minor class features, but I don't think an extended lifespan is that useful in a one-shot.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If you want, you could skip the level of Runesmith by picking up the dragonblood subtype (either from race or with the Dragontouched feat) and take the Dragonscale Husk ACF for Duskblade. Grants some pretty good armor with 0% spell failure chance. As a bonus, since it's not an armor bonus to AC it stacks with spells like shield, as well as with magic items like Bracers of Armor. That would let you grab another level of Abjurant Champion to pick up Swift Abjuration.

[Mr Adventurer]

Dragonscale Husk stops scaling with level if you take levels of classes without heavy armour proficiency (like nearly any prestige class). Worse, the way it's written is that it doesn't stack with any other bonuses to armour class at all. You basically have to build your character around it for it to be even mediocre.

EDIT: OK, I looked it up. It says:

This bonus doesn't stack with any feat, racial trait, or other special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class.

It also says it can't be increased by magic, so it's pretty limited. Counts as medium armour, too.

Also, shield stacks with armour anyway because it's a shield bonus.

[Allanimal]

If you want, you could skip the level of Runesmith by picking up the dragonblood subtype (either from race or with the Dragontouched feat) and take the Dragonscale Husk ACF for Duskblade. Grants some pretty good armor with 0% spell failure chance. As a bonus, since it's not an armor bonus to AC it stacks with spells like shield, as well as with magic items like Bracers of Armor. That would let you grab another level of Abjurant Champion to pick up Swift Abjuration.

Hmmmm Interesting... Dragonscale Husk is not from the approved book list, but I may be able to get an exception.

Been too busy to think about and comment on the other responses. Thanks and I will get to them soon.

EDIT:
I'm liking the idea of
Duskblade 2 / Wu Jen 3 / Runesmith 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 2
That's 4th level spells, BAB 7. No Channeling, though.
I think I'll have to live with that. :)
Thanks for reminding me about Spellsword. Don't know how I overlooked it before.

Feat wise,
I'm thinking Spell Focus (Transmutation) + Metamagic School Focus to allow for 3 free extended transmutations per day.
I could do Arcane Disciple to get Divine power, but that would be once per day... Maybe enough for the one shot... But it means points in WIS which I would otherwise dump.
Or I could just do good ol' Improved initiative...