Weapon & Feat choice for a Zealot Barbarian

[jaappleton]

CoS game. Zealot Barbarian, Half Orc. All that is locked in.

Currently lv3.

This is unique in that our DM is letting us all start with a feat at lv1. Additionally, racial restrictions on feats have been removed.

Originally, I was thinking Greataxe with GWM. But I don't think I have any way of boosting my attack rolls. Even with Advantage via Reckless Attack, I'd essentially be at a +1 to attack rolls after the -5 penalty. Far from ideal, even with Advantage.

If I took GWM, it likely be wouldn't until level 8.

So... Lets get a bonus action attack?

Glaive and PAM?

However... I also saw this thing. A particular Weapon and Feat from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron:

Double Bladed Scimitar
Deals 2d4 Slashing damage, can perform a bonus action attack for 1d4 slashing damage


Revenant Blade
You are descended from a master of the double blade and their skills have passed on to you. You gain the following benefits:

Increase your Dexterity or Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
While wielding a double-bladed weapon with two hands, the weapon has the finesse trait for your attacks with it, and you gain +1 AC.
On your turn, when you use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the blade at the opposite end of the weapon, the weapon’s damage die for this attack increases to 2d4, instead of 1d4.

-----

So... PAM with a Glaive retains the Heavy property of the weapon. Means I can take GWM later on.

However, that unique double scimitar thing with its feat from Eberron means +1 AC.

[Rukelnikov]

So... PAM with a Glaive retains the Heavy property of the weapon. Means I can take GWM later on.

However, that unique double scimitar thing with its feat from Eberron means +1 AC.

I think that's pretty much it.

PAM + Glaive gives you reach, AoO on incoming enemies, and the possibility to take GWM later on.

RB gives you +1 AC and +1d4 to your BA attack.

Consider also, that Doueble Scimitar is amongst the worst options for a Half-Orc barbarian, since your brutal crits will only add an extra d4

[nickl_2000]

I think PAM is a better option

1) You are much more likely to run into magical PAM weapons
2) It will let you sword and shield it with a staff or spear if you like.
3) You can GWM if you want it later
4) PAM gives you a more consistent use of your reaction and pairs amazingly with Sentinel

[Blood of Gaea]

PAM followed by GWM is always the best damage output for a Barbarian (with the arguable exception of Berserker). This is still true with Zealot. 16 Str will carry you just fine into tier 3 when you can reliably attack with advantage.

[TheCleverGuy]

I'm playing a dual-wielding Zealot Barbarian right now. At level 5, I have three attacks per round (after the first round because Rage takes a bonus action to activate). Sure, the bonus action off-hand attack doesn't get my STR bonus, but I'm almost guaranteed to make up for that and more with rage damage and the extra radiant damage from Divine Fury. In 1 round with all three attacks, I do 1d8+STR+Rage+1d6+Half Level (Divine Fury); then 1d8+STR+Rage (Extra Attack); then 1d8+Rage (off-hand). And even if I miss with one attack, the Divine Fury kicks on a subsequent attack, since it's tied to the first hit in a turn, not the first attack.

The Dual Wielder feat let's me use battleaxes instead of hand axes for weapons, and gives +1 to AC. For the first round of combat, I almost always have the option of swinging twice two-handed for 1d10+STR damage and then drawing the second axe for the AC bump.

[jaappleton]

I'm playing a dual-wielding Zealot Barbarian right now. At level 5, I have three attacks per round (after the first round because Rage takes a bonus action to activate). Sure, the bonus action off-hand attack doesn't get my STR bonus, but I'm almost guaranteed to do make up for that and more with rage damage and the extra radiant damage from Divine Fury. In 1 round with all three attacks, I do 1d8+STR+Rage+1d6+Half Level (Divine Fury); then 1d8+STR+Rage (Extra Attack); then 1d8+Rage (off-hand). And even if I miss with one attack, the Divine Fury kicks on a subsequent attack, since it's tied to the first hit in a turn, not the first attack.

The Dual Wielder feat let's me use battleaxes instead of hand axes for weapons, and gives +1 to AC. For the first round of combat, I almost always have the option of swinging twice two-handed for 1d10+STR damage and then drawing the second axe for the AC bump.

If I were starting at lv6, I'd have strongly considered dual wielding. Barb 5 / Fighter 1 with TWF. And hopefully I would've gotten dibs on a certain sunlight oriented sword in Curse of Strahd to go along with it... >_>

Sadly, we aren't starting at such a late level and I'd rather PAM now.

[Willie the Duck]

I would boost Strength (or take a half-feat that accomplishes the same). One of the perks of a barbarian is that you don't have to choose to specialize in a certain combat format in the way that you do with fighters. Start out having lots of damage output in the party but not much healing? Start out sword and board. Later you hit 5th and decide you need to not have a shield on your arm, as you will be starting or ending encounters with a bow? Switch up to something else. Now you can pick up a pair of handaxes or a longsword (switching between using two handed and using one-handed while grappling) or greatsword or glaive. Rage and archetype benefits (such as Divine Fury for the zealot, as mentioned) will keep your damage up. Not as much as a dedicated GWM+PAM Battlemaster fighter, but boy howdy do those guys have trouble finding that one +1 halberd in all the kingdom (just like the SS/XBE guy looking for the one magic hand crossbow around). Specialization is awesome exactly when it works perfectly, for everytime else, there's a Barbarian.

[qube]

If I were starting at lv6, I'd have strongly considered dual wielding. Barb 5 / Fighter 1 with TWF. And hopefully I would've gotten dibs on a certain sunlight oriented sword in Curse of Strahd to go along with it... >_>

Sadly, we aren't starting at such a late level and I'd rather PAM now. I actually played one from lvl 1 (special feat for dual weapon fighting). Still pretty sweet - as rage damage applies to all STR attacks, not just the once where you get STR to damage.

The damage output for a zealot pre lvl 5 of a short sword dual wielder is about equal to a reckless greatsworder - without the downside that the enemy would get advantage.


- as for feat? I'd take that one that gives 2 hp per level. Sounds stupid - but multiplied by rage, and the defense boost you get from not going reckless (on which the barbarian is balanced) ... I got A LOT of angry glares from my DM :smallcool:

[strangebloke]

Unconventional opinion:

TWF with shortswords. Grab Resilient:Wisdom and Mobile. Or Skulker and Prodigy:Stealth. Or magic initiate: cleric. Or any one of those feats and +2 STR. Regardless, you'll have better damage than a normal glaive user until level five, and you'll havea feat that will give your character lots of things to do besides hitting stuff.

The Revenant Blade nonsense is hilariously overpowered and silly. +1 AC, +1 STR, and +1d4 damage? Does it come with a shake?

Short swords will be easier to find in ye ole magic loot pile, and your character will be more generally useful if you don't purely optimize for melee damage.

Remember, a barbarian that can't reach their enemy is a useless barbarian.

[stoutstien]

Unconventional opinion:

TWF with shortswords. Grab Resilient:Wisdom and Mobile. Or Skulker and Prodigy:Stealth. Or magic initiate: cleric. Or any one of those feats and +2 STR. Regardless, you'll have better damage than a normal glaive user until level five, and you'll havea feat that will give your character lots of things to do besides hitting stuff.

The Revenant Blade nonsense is hilariously overpowered and silly. +1 AC, +1 STR, and +1d4 damage? Does it come with a shake?

Short swords will be easier to find in ye ole magic loot pile, and your character will be more generally useful if you don't purely optimize for melee damage.

Remember, a barbarian that can't reach their enemy is a useless barbarian.
Hand axes are a good fit too. Honestly you could use daggers and have a blast. Rage damage + zealot damage means you can just about just headbutt everything to death.

[GlenSmash!]

Conventional suggestion. Max your Strength first. Worry about Feats and weapon choice after magic weapons present themselves in the game. Especially macguffin weapons.

[Mitsu]

Take Vuman, start with PAM, then at level 4 take +2 STR, then at level 8 take GWM, then at level 12 +2 STR.

Reason is- you don't need GWM up to level 8 at all. And at level 8- 18 STR + most likely +1 magic weapon at least + higher proficiency will allow you to hit more times with GWM.

On the other hand- you can take PAM and GWM and if your know you DM- you can count on Giant Belt later which would save your ASIs. But that is if you know your DM.

[Arcangel4774]

GWM isnt a bad choice. Theres a discussion here on the forums, something like "how to -5/+10 like a pro" that breaks down when to use the attack for the highest avg damage. I think the formula was ac= (to hit bonus) - ((avg damage)/2) + 16. All of which dont use -5/+10 in calculation. At level 3 while raging ac=(5)-(6.5+3.5+3+2+1)/2+16=13 while not raging ac=(5)-(6.5+3)/2+16=16.25. Pay attention to ac and when its better to hit hard or just hit and it should be a benfit.

[jaappleton]

Heavily leaning PAM because in Curse of Strahd, there's a particular spear I'd be able to take advantage of. And being a Barbarian, its very highly like that I'd be the one for it.

Getting a +2 weapon would be absolutely amazing.

[GlenSmash!]

Heavily leaning PAM because in Curse of Strahd, there's a particular spear I'd be able to take advantage of. And being a Barbarian, its very highly like that I'd be the one for it.

Getting a +2 weapon would be absolutely amazing.

Since the latest errata I've been meaning to try spear and shield PAM on an upcoming character. If you do go this way let us know how it works out.

[Man_Over_Game]

GWM isnt a bad choice. Theres a discussion here on the forums, something like "how to -5/+10 like a pro" that breaks down when to use the attack for the highest avg damage. I think the formula was ac= (to hit bonus) - ((avg damage)/2) + 16. All of which dont use -5/+10 in calculation. At level 3 while raging ac=(5)-(6.5+3.5+3+2+1)/2+16=13 while not raging ac=(5)-(6.5+3)/2+16=16.25. Pay attention to ac and when its better to hit hard or just hit and it should be a benfit.

Simplified, just do this:

Without Advantage, use GWM if you can hit when rolling a 10 or less on the die.

With Advantage, use GWM if you can hit when rolling an 8 or less on the die.

The higher your base damage (the damage you deal when not using GWM), the lower your hit roll should be to hit. So if you deal 20 base damage (like, say, from Sneak Attack), you should never use GWM on a target that requires you to roll more than a 5 on the die. The examples I provided above, when to use GWM, are based around having a base 10 damage (so you should use GWM more if your damage is less).

[jaappleton]

Since the latest errata I've been meaning to try spear and shield PAM on an upcoming character. If you do go this way let us know how it works out.

That's essentially my plan. I won't be able to use GWM since spears don't have Heavy or Two Handed properties, but in a game like Strahd, magical weapons are pretty important.

I'd rather hit something reliably for good damage than hit occasionally for massive.

[bid]

2 issues:

Zealot and GWM
You will miss out on the extra radiant damage when you lower your to hit.


Half orc and revenant blade
Savage attack will only give you an extra 1d4 on crits.


Like others have said PAM+spear is a nice combo, but revenant blade might be fun with a few levels of rogue.

[GlenSmash!]

I'd rather hit something reliably for good damage than hit occasionally for massive.

I find this is especially true on a Zealot trying to land Radiant damage. My current zealot has GWM but I won't even consider -5/+10 until I've landed the Radiant damage hit.

Also I Reckless Attack pretty much all the time.

[N810]

Personally I would go with Great Axe and Sentinel.
I takes advantage of your Half or racial traits better,
it Sentinel will encourage your DM to hot you over allies.
since you will likely be attacking recklessly.
and you will get a reaction attack if they attack a player next to you.

[Ganymede]

So were you guys murdered by the random encounter with werewolves?

[jaappleton]

So were you guys murdered by the random encounter with werewolves?

We play Friday nights. I'll keep you updated. :smallbiggrin:

[N810]

ohhh what kind of magic spear did you get ?

[jaappleton]

ohhh what kind of magic spear did you get ?

Haven't done it. This Zealot Barb is my next character because the party, with my current Cleric, is staring down SIX WEREWOLVES and 3 WOLVES. We're level 3.

So... Yeah, it's highly likely I'll need a new character, and my Barbarian is it.

And as for a spear, I know for a fact that there's a very specific spear in Curse of Strahd. I don't want to spoil it, but yeah, its there.

EDIT:
In Curse of Strahd, in the Yester Hill area with Druids, the area used to be ruled by an ancient Barbarian. There you can find a Blood Spear, which grants you +2d6 Temp HP whenever you reduce a creature to Zero HP.

And if the barbarians spirit calls out to you (He’s inclined to if you’re a Barbarian, Ranger, and maybe even Fighter), you become his ‘chosen wielder’ of the spear, and it becomes a Blood Spear +2.

[N810]

The Spear Mastery Feat might be worth considering.
(If you have that book)

[nickl_2000]

The Spear Mastery Feat might be worth considering.
(If you have that book)

Spear Mastery isn't a book. Spear Mastery has only been released in Unearthed Arcana.
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/UA-Feats-V1.pdf

[jaappleton]

Spear Mastery isn't a book. Spear Mastery has only been released in Unearthed Arcana.
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/UA-Feats-V1.pdf

Hmm.... Not bad.

The +1 to attack rolls is good, but the rest of it competes with bonus action economy too much for my taste.

I can start with a Glaive, and I'm like 90% sure I can get the Spear.... if I live long enough to get there (Seriously, Curse of Strahd is BRUTAL at points).

After racial mods, I'm at 19 Str, 15 Dex, 18 Con. So I'd be lv3 when the Barbarian comes into play, so at lv4 I'm nabbing +1 Str and +1 Dex. My next feat wouldn't be until lv8, and by that might, Resilient: Wisdom might be well in the cards if I don't have a Paladin buddy with their Aura.

So I think I'm gonna have to pass on Spear Mastery.

[N810]

Ah my bad, I thought they included it along with the other UA Weapon Feats in Xanthars.

[GlenSmash!]

Ah my bad, I thought they included it along with the other UA Weapon Feats in Xanthars.

If only.

Fell Handed is rad. Having a use for your lower advantage die is a neat way to use the mechanic that I would like to see more of.

[El_Jairo]

If only.

Fell Handed is rad. Having a use for your lower advantage die is a neat way to use the mechanic that I would like to see more of.

Yeah, I really like that kind of game mechanic. Where you add something new on an existing roll, so the process is smooth.

One re-roll (damage dice or 2 hit with DIS) a round are also nice mechanics, as it allows you to impact in a situation when you need/want it the most in the round.
Which creates a story to tell.