Theorycrafting stat rolls: imbalanced but fun party

[MaxWilson]

People like to talk about how they think stat rolling makes it impossible for players to have a good spotlight balance. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're playing a Baldur's Gate-style version of 5E, and when you start the game, you get wildly imbalanced rolls, some crummy stats and some great stats, like this:

PC #1:
13
8
8
8
12
12

PC #2:
11
11
12
12
11
10

PC #3:
11
8
15
13
12
16

PC #4:
15
18
15
10
11
10

What would you do with those stat rolls, and will it result in PCs #3 and #4 dominating play to the point where PCs #1 and #2 are irrelevant?

[Man_Over_Game]

People like to talk about how they think stat rolling makes it impossible for players to have a good spotlight balance. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're playing a Baldur's Gate-style version of 5E, and when you start the game, you get wildly imbalanced rolls, some crummy stats and some great stats, like this:

PC #1:
13
8
8
8
12
12

PC #2:
11
11
12
12
11
10

PC #3:
11
8
15
13
12
16

PC #4:
15
18
15
10
11
10

What would you do with those stat rolls, and will it result in PCs #3 and #4 dominating play to the point where PCs #1 and #2 are irrelevant?


Illusionist Wizard. Just rely on something that requires luck and good player creativity over mechanical power. Absolutely avoid anything that requires melee combat. Doing both leads me to think the Illusion Wizard would succeed.
With your maximum score being a +1 mod, I'd recommend Moon Druid. Since your normal stats aren't going to excel much at anything, it's best just to steal someone else's stats to stand out.
Well balanced, a few high scores. I'd make this one a Cleric of some kind. Grave or Light would work rather well.
With stats like those, I'd go with a Paladin. You'd be incredibly tanky and the team needs a face. It doesn't really matter which one, though.

[Demonslayer666]

PC #1 would get a reroll and have to take the second set. PC #2 could talk me into rerolling without much effort.

I do give starting bonuses to those that give me a good character background, and balance stats out by giving a little more to those that rolled poorly.

Stat rolls do not make much difference in my game. Skill checks aren't that important. Roleplaying and fun are emphasized, and min maxing is unnecessary, so no, I don't think this makeup would be any worse than a stat buy group.

[RogueJK]

PC 1: Hill Dwarf Moon Druid (Melee)

PC 2: Forest Gnome Abjuration Wizard, focusing on utility spells and buffs (Support)

PC 3: Half-Elf Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X (Healer/Support/Skills) or Dragonborn Hexblade 1/PaladinX (Tank/Healer/Face)

PC 4: Shadar-Kai Scout Rogue X, maybe with a 1 level Fighter dip for a Fighting Style. (Ranged/Traps/Scout)


And yes, PC 3 and 4 will be more effective than 1 and 2.

[Man_Over_Game]

PC #1 would get a reroll and have to take the second set. PC #2 could talk me into rerolling without much effort.

I do give starting bonuses to those that give me a good character background, and balance stats out by giving a little more to those that rolled poorly.

Stat rolls do not make much difference in my game. Skill checks aren't that important. Roleplaying and fun are emphasized, and min maxing is unnecessary, so no, I don't think this makeup would be any worse than a stat buy group.

Your answer is kind of conflicting, though. On one hand, you're saying that players 1 and 2 should get a reroll (when the OP is asking what classes would work with those rolls), but then you say that the stats don't matter. Why should the players reroll if the stats don't make much difference?

[MaxWilson]

PC 1: Hill Dwarf Moon Druid (Tank)

PC 2: Forest Gnome Abjuration Wizard, focusing on utility spells and buffs (Support)

PC 3: Half-Elf Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X (Healer/Support/Skills) or Dragonborn Hexblade 1/PaladinX (Melee/Healer)

PC 4: Shadar-Kai Scout Rogue X (Ranged/Traps/Scout)

And yes, PC 3 and 4 will be more effective than 1 and 2.

This is an interesting answer, because it's hard for me to imagine a Scout Rogue outshining both a Moon Druid and an Abjuration Wizard, Dex 18 or no Dex 18. Why do you think this would happen?

[RogueJK]

This is an interesting answer, because it's hard for me to imagine a Scout Rogue outshining both a Moon Druid and an Abjuration Wizard, Dex 18 or no Dex 18. Why do you think this would happen?

Because both the Druid and Wizard had middling primary stats, limiting their ability to be effective in their spellcasting. The Moon Druid could still contribute in melee, when in Wildshape, but is in trouble if knocked out of Wildshape. And the Wizard could still contribute in utility/exploration/buffing situations, but won't be able to make much use of spells with attack rolls or saves. So they'd be significantly less optimal than characters of their classes with higher primary casting stats. And because of their low stats all around, they'd also suffer in other secondary areas, with low ACs, low HPs, low skill bonuses, etc.

[MaxWilson]

Because both the Druid and Wizard had middling primary stats, limiting their ability to be effective in their spellcasting. The Moon Druid could still contribute in melee, when in Wildshape. And the Wizard could still contribute in utility/exploration/buffing situations. But they'd be significantly less optimal than characters with higher primary casting stats.

Interesting. I don't see it playing out that way. The question wasn't "is the wizard less wizardy than he'd be with an Int 18," it was "will it result in PCs #3 and #4 dominating play to the point where PCs #1 and #2 are irrelevant?"

An Int 12 wizard casting Fireball is... almost exactly as effective as an Int 16 wizard casting Fireball. (10% of enemies will take less damage from him than the Int 16 wizard.) Or Polymorph, or Wall of Force, or Mage Armor on the Moon Druid and the Rogue. He has an Arcane Ward that is only 2 HP less powerful than the Int 16 wizard's Arcane Ward is, e.g. 15 HP vs. 17 HP at 7th level. He's significantly worse at save-every-round spells like Slow and Hold Person, but he still has a bunch of stuff that only he can do--the Scout Rogue can't render the Abjuror redundant, and in fact the Scout will love having the Abjuror around to cast Haste on him for up to double damage. (Ready: Attack [trigger: whenever someone besides Scout attacks or moves], plus Hasted Attack, lets the Scout attack on two separate turns to get sneak attack twice.)

Moon Druid is similar (Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, Pass Without Trace, Goodberry, Healing Spirit, etc. are all excellent party spells) but also adds in wildshaping (e.g. Giant Octopus form, Giant Constrictor Snake) for excellent tanking and control and granting advantage to the Paladin and the Scout for extra damage.

I think all four of your PCs would get plenty of spotlight.

[RogueJK]

I never said 1 and 2 will be irrelevant. Just that 3 and 4 will be noticeably more effective, with both their higher primary stats and their higher stats overall.

[MaxWilson]

I never said 1 and 2 will be irrelevant. Just that 3 and 4 will be noticeably more effective, with both their higher primary stats and their higher stats overall.

Ah, I see. When you said "Yes" I thought you were answering the question in the OP.



Illusionist Wizard. Just rely on something that requires luck and good player creativity over mechanical power. Absolutely avoid anything that requires melee combat. Doing both leads me to think the Illusion Wizard would succeed.
With your maximum score being a +1 mod, I'd recommend Moon Druid. Since your normal stats aren't going to excel much at anything, it's best just to steal someone else's stats to stand out.
Well balanced, a few high scores. I'd make this one a Cleric of some kind. Grave or Light would work rather well.
With stats like those, I'd go with a Paladin. You'd be incredibly tanky and the team needs a face. It doesn't really matter which one, though.


With a slight tweak, you don't even necessarily have to avoid things that require mechanical power on PC #1. For instance, you could make a Heavy Armor Master Fighter 1/Illusionist X with Str 15 Dex 8 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 8, and now you've got AC 19-21ish (when you get plate armor) and the ability to tangle with bad guys in melee, which incidentally is a great range for casting Fear spells. You have some real weaknesses (pressure on your spell preparation slots will be even higher than usual), and save-every-round spells like Hold Monster will be even less reliable for you than usual, but you have mechanical strengths as well. Your HP are on the low side (only 31 HP at 5th level) so you'll want to keep spells like Shield and Absorb Elements prepared, and you're a level behind in spellcasting compared to a pure illusionist wizard, but illusionists are such a blast I bet you'd have a great time anyway both in and out of combat.

[Lance Tankmen]

People like to talk about how they think stat rolling makes it impossible for players to have a good spotlight balance. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're playing a Baldur's Gate-style version of 5E, and when you start the game, you get wildly imbalanced rolls, some crummy stats and some great stats, like this:

PC #1:
13
8
8
8
12
12

PC #2:
11
11
12
12
11
10

PC #3:
11
8
15
13
12
16

PC #4:
15
18
15
10
11
10

What would you do with those stat rolls, and will it result in PCs #3 and #4 dominating play to the point where PCs #1 and #2 are irrelevant?

I assume rolled in order, in my groups its 4d6 drop lowest but since you pick where stats go you pick race and class before hand. that said if forced to roll in order id make them as follows

#1 Mountain dwarf warrior, get heavy armor master at level 4 for 16 str and -3 on non-magical attacks and at level one have 19 AC from shield and 1h weapon. then have 20 str by level 8.

#2Vhuman with linguist for a 14 in INT then go necro so i dont have to fight much. 18 int by level 8. not the worse

#3Draconic sorcerer drow, at level 4 id have 16 con and 18 cha, then at 8 20cha, ac of 13 the whole time but eh

#4Wood elf ranger , he would shine the brightest in my opinion as he starts with 20 DEX could go rogue also, that way the dwarf isnt alone in melee.

That said #4 hitting the most often isn't automatic, its assumed but Ive seen people all session roll nothing above a 10. sometimes or some days youre unlucky, that and just like LoTRs legolas didnt make gimli irrelevant, though i guess they were fairly equal in stats, who knows lol.

That said I track stats of PCs in my game and compare how bad or well they roll compared to simple array of 72 total
#1 got a 61, lowest ive seen rolled in my game was 60 total so ive seen worse
#2 got a 67 which is one of those times where id rather have number 1 over #2 because id struggle to not even the 3 11s out... OCD
#3 got 75, im surprised it looks a lot better than simple at first but is only 3 better
#4 79, i mean i knew it was the high when i saw the 18 and the lowest were two 10s, that said highest ive seen was 89 . sadly they never got anything to 20 they grabbed two feats instead...

[KorvinStarmast]

People like to talk about how they think stat rolling makes it impossible for players to have a good spotlight balance. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're playing a Baldur's Gate-style version of 5E, and when you start the game, you get wildly imbalanced rolls, some crummy stats and some great stats, like this:

PC #1: 13 8 8 8 12 12

PC #2: 11 11 12 12 11 10

PC #3: 11 8 15 13 12 16

PC #4: 15 18 15 10 11 10

The party
# 1 Hill Dwarf Druid (Moon)
S 8 D 12 C 14 I 8 W 14 Ch 8
#2 Half Elf Warlock (Thinking GOO / Tome or Archfey / Chain, and leaning toward the latter)
S11 D12 C12 I10 W12 Ch14
# 3 Rogue/AT High Elf
S 8 D 18 C 15 I 14 W 12 Ch 11 (as needed, expertise for a social skill at some point)
# 4 vHuman Barbarian (Feat... hmmm, so many choices, I'll go with Alert)
S 16 D 16 C 18 Int 10 Wis 11 Ch 10

I have a serious tank, and three characters who have a lot else to contribute to the show. That tank will IMO help them through the early levels. he will also never be surprised, gets big initiative boost, and can help to shape the battlefield on round 1.


What would you do with those stat rolls, and will it result in PCs #3 and #4 dominating play to the point where PCs #1 and #2 are irrelevant? No, since I am not an idiot when I am a DM.

[Gtdead]

I'm assuming that you can't switch stats around. The order you listed them corresponds to the stats, for example your first pc has 13 str, 8 dex, 8 con, 8 int, 12 wis, 12 cha

PC 1: This has to be a support class. The stats are really bad. I'd probably go for a vhuman trickery cleric. Mirror image and CDs can help with survivability. I'd grab ritual caster at first level. And his domain spells are awesome.

PC 2: Fighter
Probably dwarf, shield and sword. Technically he can go archer and be effective after a couple of levels. But the party needs a meatshield, and it will be a waste to use pc3/4 for this role.

(I really wanted to make a rogue with this array, elf, elven accuracy and rest ASIs in dex. Rogue doesn't need many feats. At high level this character would be fine. But I need a meatshield for this party.)

PC 3:
Option 1: Elven valor bard. Eith elf and medium armor, his ac will be okish. I'd probably get a dex ASI first, then 2 CHA ASIs and dex again for the last one. His STR is ok for a grappling build. He could be a pretty effective offtank/mage hunter.

Option 2: Sorlock. Bad dex but with eldritch spear and fly he isn't going to have many problems. Good con, twin buffs.


PC 4:
Ranger/Rogue MC. I consider Ranger/Rogue MC one of the better builds in this edition. He deals amazing damage, very mobile, great as a skill monkey. I'd do something like Ranger 5/Rogue X.

[MaxWilson]

I'm assuming that you can't switch stats around.

Let's say you can switch them around, since I rolled these using the PHB default method (I think I rolled four sets and took the one with the biggest inter-PC variation) and the PHB lets you arrange to taste.

I agree that rolling in order is fun and does spur creativity, but it is an acquired taste, and the PHB isn't that hard-core about randomness.

[RogueJK]

Let's say you can switch them around

Ah, that changes things a bit.

It makes #1 a bit more usable, as you can at least start with a 15ish in your primary stat.

And #3 and #4 can be even further optimized.

Doesn't do much to help #2, though.

[Zhorn]

I originally got the idea from a Matt Colville and tweaked a little.
Colville method: 4d6k3 six times (in order), must reroll if not at least two 15's or higher.
My adjustment: 4d6k3 six times (placed as desired), allow reroll if not at least one 15's or higher, and the sum of modifiers needs to be positive.

Under that condition, PC1 and PC2 would be allowed a rerolls.

[MoiMagnus]

Why should the players reroll if the stats don't make much difference?
Because there is a huge gap between "what is statistically relevant" and "what the players feel as relevant".
Even if it doesn't has any effect, having your best stat at the same level as the average stat of someone else can be frustrating.

Moreover, most people don't have a clear intuition of probabilities:
Wizzard with 18 Int cast a spell, the ennemy succeed at his save -> The player will most likely assume it is bad luck, or that the ennemy has too good saves.
Wizzard with 14 Int cast a spell, the ennemy succeed at his save -> The player may irrationnally assume that it is because his character is too weak and cannot succeed.
(In a similar way, I've seen DMs highly overestimate the value of a "+/-2" at a test)

[noob]

Because both the Druid and Wizard had middling primary stats, limiting their ability to be effective in their spellcasting. The Moon Druid could still contribute in melee, when in Wildshape, but is in trouble if knocked out of Wildshape. And the Wizard could still contribute in utility/exploration/buffing situations, but won't be able to make much use of spells with attack rolls or saves. So they'd be significantly less optimal than characters of their classes with higher primary casting stats. And because of their low stats all around, they'd also suffer in other secondary areas, with low ACs, low HPs, low skill bonuses, etc.

No it barely does any difference for casting: stats only improve dcs of your spells(no bonus spells which were the reason why the casting stat was important in 3.5) and casters know how to not make a character that use spells that are countered by saves.
So fact your casting stat is the least important stat if you can not bring it high enough for making opponents reliably fail their saves: a wizard can superdump int and have -124312433245324523425345324253463543546325466796 int and be as strong as a 10 int wizard.
It is as simple as the following: if you are not likely enough to down opponents with a spell that needs a save just use a spell that does not needs a save.

[DeTess]

No it barely does any difference for casting: stats only improve dcs of your spells(no bonus spells which were the reason why the casting stat was important in 3.5) and casters know how to not make a character that use spells that are countered by saves.
So fact your casting stat is the least important stat if you can not bring it high enough for making opponents reliably fail their saves: a wizard can superdump int and have -124312433245324523425345324253463543546325466796 int and be as strong as a 10 int wizard.
It is as simple as the following: if you are not likely enough to down opponents with a spell that needs a save just use a spell that does not needs a save.

Right, because everyone knows that spells that either require an attack roll or a save are far worse than those that don't need those. In all seriousness, casters need their main casting stat just as much as martials need Dex or strength, as the only thing left to do without that one is buffing allies, and since all the best buffs require concentration, that'd leave the caster with nothing useful to do after round 1 of the fight.

[noob]

Right, because everyone knows that spells that either require an attack roll or a save are far worse than those that don't need those. In all seriousness, casters need their main casting stat just as much as martials need Dex or strength, as the only thing left to do without that one is buffing allies, and since all the best buffs require concentration, that'd leave the caster with nothing useful to do after round 1 of the fight.

You forget battlefield control spells such as fog or wall of stone or most image spells.(there is probably a bunch more illusion spells)
Also a champion fighter does not have any alternative to attacks or using objects(such as caltrops or flour) while a wizard have way more options that are not attacks.

[DeTess]

You forget battlefield control spells such as fog or wall of stone or most image spells.(there is probably a bunch more illusion spells)
Also a champion fighter does not have any alternative to attacks or using objects(such as caltrops or flour) while a wizard have way more options that are not attacks.

Fog or wall of stone might work, but they require very specific situations to set up (fog hits your own allies as well after all, and wall of stone only works in cramped enough environs that you can actually wall off part of the enemy force). Mainstay BFC's like 'grease' or confusion, on the other hand, require saves. Illusions too, will only fool an opponent until they take an action to make a save, and are incredibly DM dependent.

[noob]

Fog or wall of stone might work, but they require very specific situations to set up (fog hits your own allies as well after all, and wall of stone only works in cramped enough environs that you can actually wall off part of the enemy force). Mainstay BFC's like 'grease' or confusion, on the other hand, require saves. Illusions too, will only fool an opponent until they take an action to make a save, and are incredibly DM dependent.

If the opponents took an action to make a save they still wasted an action(so in the case where there is not a swarm of opponents(which is common because it is a pain to do rounds with 50 opponents) you did participate efficiently in the action economy) and do you ever see people say "I try to see if the wall of stone which just appeared is an illusion"?
If you make your illusion look like a wall of stone and that your opponents immediately tries to make the action to spot if it is an illusion then once you cast wall of stone no opponents tries to make the action to spot if it is an illusion you can then tell the gm that it is plain dumb metagaming.
Also counterspell is a quite commonly referenced spell and it have no saves.
Simulacrum is another spell that have no save which is really good.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wall%20of%20Stone#content

You can see it is rather easy to make a shape that splits opponent forces since.

The wall can have any shape you desire
So you can at least assemble the panels in any way you want.

Then if you are evil you can use animate dead.

[Astofel]

People like to talk about how they think stat rolling makes it impossible for players to have a good spotlight balance. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're playing a Baldur's Gate-style version of 5E, and when you start the game, you get wildly imbalanced rolls, some crummy stats and some great stats, like this:

PC #1:
13
8
8
8
12
12

PC #2:
11
11
12
12
11
10

PC #3:
11
8
15
13
12
16

PC #4:
15
18
15
10
11
10

What would you do with those stat rolls, and will it result in PCs #3 and #4 dominating play to the point where PCs #1 and #2 are irrelevant?

#1 is a lizardfolk moon druid, with Str 8 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 8. Being a lizardfolk gets them AC equal to that of hide without needing as high a dex. They'll be spending most of their time in wildshape anyway, so their stats aren't super important, and maybe the DM will be generous and allow Hungry Jaws to work with wildshapes that have a bite attack. They can focus on healing spells like Goodberry, or spells that buff the party and don't require a saving throw.

#2 is a kobold samurai fighter, specialising in archery, with Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 11 Cha 11. Pack tactics is super useful here, that combined with the archery fighting style would help with the lower accuracy from having a lower dex. They can pick up Sharpshooter at 6th level as well to start dealing massive damage. Pack tactics also synergises well with the samurai's 15th level ability to sacrifice advantage on one attack to get an extra attack, which probably has advantage itself because of pack tactics.

#3 is a hill dwarf life cleric with Str 15 Dex 8 Con 15 Int 11 Wis 17 Cha 12. This dude is focused on keeping the rest of the party alive, throwing out heals and buff spells to make the less lucky party members more effective and keep them on their feet. They can also act as a backup melee, since they have the extra hit points, the strength, and the weapon profiencies from their race to hold their own there.

#4 is a half-elf redemption paladin with Str 16 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 20. Oath of redemption has some of the best oath spells for supporting the party, and once they hit 6th level they'll really appreciate that charisma bonus to their otherwise lackluster saves. Plus at 7th level the pally will even be able to take a hit for one of their buddies. They can also help out the cleric with healing thanks to lay on hands, and if we want to go all in on keeping the party safe we can even use the protection fighting style.

I feel like this would be a pretty damn effective party, all fulfilling different enough roles that no-one feels outshone. This is helped by the two party members who rolled really good stats being mostly geared towards helping out the party members who rolled less good stats. I'd be happy to play literally any one of these characters.

[Gtdead]

I still think that high dc (along with high initiative) is paramount to a good caster build and I always advocate for raising spell dc before anything else. Save or suck aoe spells are very potent, and averaging one more success in an aoe cast is a huge force multiplier in spells like hypnotic pattern (not fireball of course, fireball may be iconic, but it's not that great of a spell). I would only make a low mainstat caster if I knew they had some class ability that allowed them to be effective (save disadvantage, portent, no save debuffs like SG), or he was an amazing buffer.

[Arcangel4774]

Pc1: devine or favored sourcerer (whichever the non-ua one is) gives most of the great support/healing spells and the ability to twin them to multiple targets.

Pc2: moon druid. Varying levels of dominance with your wild shape and decent spells when not

Pc3: seems the closest to standard but just above it really most anything works here but id lean towards the sad-er classes. Rogue, fighter, or ranger. Itd really end up being campaign dependentent.

Pc4: with 3 high stats like this classes that benefit from multiple stats for different thing are nice. Monk, paladin or maybe barbarian. Given the option myself id likely go dragonborn conquest paladin.

[MaxWilson]

Save or suck aoe spells are very potent, and averaging one more success in an aoe cast is a huge force multiplier in spells like hypnotic pattern

For every 20 enemies, every +2 to your spellcasting stat will result in an extra enemy failing the save.

Sixth level Int 13 wizard casts Fear on 12 orcs: DC 12, will affect six or seven orcs.

Sixth level Int 18 wizard casts Fear on 12 orcs: DC 15, will affect eight or nine orcs.

In both cases, it's a great spell to cast, and the main question will be "can the wizard keep concentration?" The biggest success factor won't be "how high is your Int?" it will be "can you survive on the front lines long enough to make Fear effective?" If the Int 13 wizard is actually a Str 13 Int 13 Fighter 1/Wizard 5 with AC 19 (Chain + Shield + Defense style) and the Shield spell, his chances of keeping Fear up are excellent, especially once he starts Dodging.

(Of course in reality he should just Fireball these orcs, which will kill the ones who fail their save and maybe kill even the ones who make their save.)

Is it better to have Int 18 than Int 13? Yes, of course. But just as advantage can compensate for a lower to-hit bonus, targeting a bunch of enemies can compensate for a lower spell DC. Anyway, for a non-repeated-save spell, the difference between Int 18 and Int 13 isn't that big.

===================================

I liked some of the ideas I saw above like the one with the lizard shaman Moon Druid. Here's my own take:

PC #1: 13 8 8 8 12 12
(Variant human) Heavy Armor Master Fighter 1/Diviner X, background Bounty Hunter (because I just watched Alita) based on Spy.
Str 15 (13) Dex 8 Con 12 Int 13 (12) Cha 12 AC 19-21 (chain or plate armor, shield, Defense style)
Athletics, Perception, Stealth (Bounty Hunter), Investigation (Bounty Hunter), Arcana (human)
Notes: advancement priorities include boosting Int eventually to 18, taking Lucky, and eventually taking a second level of Fighter for Action Surge. Take Lucky at 5th level if the campaign seems tough. Use your familiar and divinations like Arcane Eye to help the party plan out their approach to a target. In combat, concentrate either on no-save spells like Wall of Force, on tanking self-buffs like Blur, or party buffs like Haste/Polymorph/Mage Armor, or on action-denial terrain effect spells like Evard's Black Tentacles.

PC #2: 11 11 12 12 11 10
Goblin Moon Druid (Outlander)
Str 10 Dex 14 (12) Con 12 (11) Int 11 Wis 12 Cha 11 AC 16-17 (hide or Mage Armor from wizard, Dex, shield)
Nature, Survival, Perception (Outlander dupe), Stealth (Outlander dupe)
Notes: take Skulker at some point and have fun abusing Pass Without Trace + Nimble Escape (Hide) + Skulker against anything that relies on darkvision. In humanoid shape chuck Produce Flame or use Thunderwave + Nimble Escape (Disengage, with pre-cast Longstrider if appropriate to the scenario) against foes that aren't worth a wildshape or real spells. Have fun being a relatively charismatic and sociable goblin, especially for an Outlander Moon Druid. No Cha penalties! :)

PC #3: 11 8 15 13 12 16
Half-elf Valor Bardlock, Hexblade 2/Valor Bard X
Str 12 Dex 14 (13) Con 16 (15) Int 11 Wis 8 Cha 18 (16) AC 18-19 (scale or half-plate, Dex, shield)
Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Athletics (eventual Expertise), whatever else.
Notes: Hex + Extra Attack + Athletics Expertise is amazing. Take Spell Sniper eventually. Exploit Agonizing Repelling Blast + terrain effects from wizard (Evard's Black Tentacles or Web) or druids (Spike Growth, or animal swarms that can threaten opportunity attacks to sort of pin targets in place).

PC #4: 15 18 15 10 11 10
Half-elf Divine Shepherdlock, Divine Soul 1-4/Shepherd Druid 11/Celestial Chainlock 1-5 (Spy, cause it sounds fun)
Str 10 Dex 16 (15) Con 12 (11) Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 20 (18) AC 16-18 (hide armor or Mage armor from wizard, Dex, shield)
Persuasion, Insight, Deception (Spy), Acrobatics (Spy), Stealth (half-elf), Perception (half-elf)
Notes: Start Divine Soul for saves and Con save proficiency and Fire Bolt and mobility (Expeditious Retreat) and durability (Shield), then Shepherd 1-6 and then Divine Soul 2-3 for 5th level slots ASAP (Conjure Animals V), then Celestialock 1-2 at levels 10-11. With two Druids in the party you'll have a much easier time not "wasting" spells due to concentration or wildshape interference, and you'll get massive, massive benefit from Bear Totem Spirit when both druids are concentrating on Conjure Animals in big fights. (Diviner can optionally Tiny Servant as well.) Take Agonizing Repelling Blast when you get your warlock levels, and you'll take Spell Sniper at level 5 (Shepherd 4), so all of those meat shields will never get in your own way. When you don't feel like wasting a spell slot on Conjure Animals you have options like wild shaping into a Constrictor Snake, Giant Toad, or Giant Octopus to grant advantage to allies or casting Spike Growth to give the bardlock (and eventually yourself at level 11) something to Agonizing Repelling Blast things through. Take Extended Spell metamagic to buy extra time on your Conjure Animals and Healing Spirits and Mage Armors, and take Quicken Spell as your other metamagic. At highest levels you can do things like Conjure Fey (Giant Ape) to get something which still benefits from Mighty Summoner for the Diviner to Planar Bind on favorable Portent days.

I don't think there's a single PC in that party that wouldn't be fun to play.

[Chronos]

Don't forget that mainstat also determines how many spells a prepared caster can prepare. Someone recently posted about a 6 Int wizard that he made on a lark, and Fog Cloud worked just as well on that guy as it does on anyone else... but it was also the only spell he had for his first three levels, so he really had to make it work well. These guys won't be quite that bad off, but they'll still be a lot less versatile than a proper wizard (clerics and land druids at least have something of an out from their domain/circle spells).

[Yunru]

#1 is a moon druid.
#2 is a moon druid.
#3 is a Cavalier with a moon druid mount.
#4 is a Paladin with a moon druid mount.

[Imbalance]

'But' nothing. Imbalanced = fun.

[Gtdead]

For every 20 enemies, every +2 to your spellcasting stat will result in an extra enemy failing the save.



Well yes, +1 DC isn't that dramatic, but the differences here were greater than that. And the difference is more prominent when we deal with high saves.

If you hit 7/10 against 7.5/10, the difference is about 7%.
If you hit 2.5/10 against 3/10, the difference is 20%.

I agree that it can be done, but I wouldn't do it myself.

[MaxWilson]

Well yes, +1 DC isn't that dramatic, but the differences here were greater than that. And the difference is more prominent when we deal with high saves.

If you hit 7/10 against 7.5/10, the difference is about 7%.
If you hit 2.5/10 against 3/10, the difference is 20%.

I agree that it can be done, but I wouldn't do it myself.

Yes, the relative difference is greater against higher save modifiers, but I was responding to the statement that "averaging one more success in an aoe cast is a huge force multiplier in spells like hypnotic pattern," and in order to average one more success has to be a huge number of enemies, and there typically aren't going to be a huge number of enemies all with terrific Wisdom saving throws (70-75% success rate) because if you're fighting e.g. ten to twenty monsters all with +6ish to their Wisdom saves at 9th level, it's probably an uber-Deadly threat worth hundreds of thousands of XP.

If you're just saying that high-value single-target spells and effects like Banishment, Feeblemind, and Command Undead are noticeably more likely to be completely wasted against strong targets when you've got a low casting stat, then yes, I agree, but that's not the statement I was responding to. (And, at highest levels you have to pretty much give up on hoping tough monsters fail their saving throws, anyway, because of legendary resistance--so you wind up switching to no-save spells like Forcecage anyway unless the DM has rewritten the legendary resistance rules.)

[BigPixie]

I would tell #1 #2 to use standard array or point buy. (If you can't go around it, go through it)

[Gtdead]

@MaxWilson

Understood, I mentioned the relative difference as an afterthought. What I meant to say in the first sentence, is that when I was trying to come up with builds for the stats (which I didn't switch around), the differences were far greater than +1 to DC. And since I wanted to give the better stats to characters that can perform the more heavy duty roles (meatshield, offtank, dpr), I was left with an 8 INT wizard (before race selection) which is a pretty big gap.

[MaxWilson]

@MaxWilson

Understood, I mentioned the relative difference as an afterthought. What I meant to say in the first sentence, is that when I was trying to come up with builds for the stats (which I didn't switch around), the differences were far greater than +1 to DC. And since I wanted to give the better stats to characters that can perform the more heavy duty roles (meatshield, offtank, dpr), I was left with an 8 INT wizard (before race selection) which is a pretty big gap.

Makes sense, thanks for explaining. I've seen Cha 9 sorcs in play and they are indeed frustrating to players, IME. Cha 8 wizards could be even worse due to spells prepared pressure and no metamagic. Breaking barred from multiclassing is also huge--it's much more expensive to shore up weaknesses via feats.