Dread Necromancer Death salesman

[Jade_Skye]

Hello all, I'm looking at creating a dread necromancer that attempts to legitimize his craft by buying the rights to a person's corpse from the living. After all, what do they need their dead bodies for? Wouldn't they rather have money now? I'm also planning on taking the mother cyst feat, and giving them a necrotic cyst upon agreement. (Let me cast this spell that'll tell me when you die, so I can collect.) Eventually, he'll be able to kill with said cyst. Any suggestions to add to the build? How likely would you be convinced to sell your body? He secretly worships Nerull.

[StevenC21]

Well, it would certainly cost a significant amount of money... For a peasant.

Overall, 5 gp would likely be a wealth for a commoner.

However, the authorities abd religious body probably wouldn't like you, especially since you worship Nerull, which means you're evil, which means you have a detectable evil aura.

[Jade_Skye]

He claims to worship Wee Jas, and will cast undetectable alignment to help keep local religious bodies from being a problem.

[Vizzerdrix]

The good churches are free to make a counter offer. It would help to sweeten the pot if you also returned the remains after you finished with them.

[Jade_Skye]

Ooo...good idea. Yes, return remains or at least promise to see to respectful disposal of remains if returning is not possible.

[Zaq]

In Planescape, the Dustmen are known for doing exactly this.

Part of your problem will be collecting. You're one dude, you know? A cyst doesn't actually tell you when someone dies. (It's not clear if necrotic scrying would work once the target dies, though I will allow that the failure of the spell will still give you some info—but the big problem there is the spell slot, which isn't free, and which becomes prohibitively expensive if you're making a lot of these contracts.) Even if you are alerted in some way, dread necros don't get any good class-based method of traveling back to pick up a specific corpse. It makes sense when the Dusties do it because there's a lot of them, and while Sigil is darned big, it's not infinite—they've got an existing network in place to find corpses they contractually own. It's a small but well-established part of the setting. One dude working alone is going to have a harder time of this. Especially if you're actually offering this in good faith and not arranging for collection on an accelerated timescale, which would be an entirely different issue.

I mean, maybe if you were an elf, a warforged, or some other race that lives way longer than whatever humanoids you happen to be nearby, you could have a backstory element of doing this sort of thing in your community over a very long term. But an active adventurer who makes this kind of contract with Joe Commoner isn't likely to be around when Joe Commoner croaks unless Joe Commoner is being killed by said adventurer or by something that said adventurer is adventuring about.

Plus, even if you adventure in a relatively small geographic area, the realities of active table time mean that most campaigns take place over days, weeks, or months. If there isn't a plague or ongoing violence, the chances of you making a prepurchase-your-corpse deal with some commoner and then getting to collect on that deal in the same campaign are pretty small. Especially if you're marketing to folks who aren't old and sick. (If there IS a plague or ongoing violence, you probably don't have a problem procuring corpses.)

Don't get me wrong: the flavor is cool. I like the idea a lot. It's a neat character facet that gives you some flavor without a ton of fuss, as long as it's in the background. But if you're expecting to actually see any results from it in-game, I have to feel like the logistics just plain aren't in your favor.

[Jade_Skye]

Thank you for your thought out response! While I admit, most of this is pure flavor, he's also doing this as a way to seem legitimate. He won't stick just to those corpses he's bought, but will claim any he uses are. (Unless he must use corpses of slain enemies for some reason...surely you can't begrudge him saving your lives party members) And yes, it doesn't tell him when they die- that's just an excuse to get his cysts in them without them fighting it. Will he take advantage of spreading the amount of peole with necrotic cysts in them in various ways...definitely, but that will be a slow reveal as it'll take a lot of leveling to do something useful with this. I just like the idea of him slowly growing an unsuspecting army of cyst positive people.

[Hackulator]

I had a character who did a similar thing. He wanted to become a lich and the DM required a sacrifice of a living good human, so I found a really poor, good hearted peasant and offered to give his entire family enough money to live the rest of their lives and become craftsmen or whatever if he was my sacrifice.

I mean, not that similar cause I totally killed him, but it's in the same ballpark.

[Falontani]

In a homebrew prestige class that I had made the idea is much akin to what you are planning on doing.


Contract: You may write up a contract detailing the terms and conditions as to the purpose and treatment of a corpse in undeath. If signed willingly by the legal owner of the corpse you may use your Dragonmark to cast Animate Dead, Create Undead, or Animate Dread Warrior without using one of your uses of that dragonmark for the day. As part of the contract you may purchase a corpse at a price of (CR of creature²)*(10+0.1 for every point an ability score is over the average for its species.)

It was for an alternate Eberron campaign where Lady Erandis Vol never was born and the House Vol and the Dragonmark of Death were never eradicated. I keep it for any time I do a non eberron campaign that accepts dragonmarks, or if we ever return to that kind of campaign.

(CR of Creature2)*100 is the price given to purchase a living slave, with a small portion specifying that creatures stronger than their average could increase cost twice as much if that is what is being looked for at the moment.

[StevenC21]

CR and Ability Scores are abstractions and do not exist in game. You can't have an in game metric relying on those values.

[Falontani]

CR and Ability Scores are abstractions and do not exist in game. You can't have an in game metric relying on those values.

{Scrubbed}

my emphasis

Yes it is guesswork but that would give the DM a good point to start with for choosing how much is a reasonable amount to purchase a creature, or in the case that I was originally proposing, a corpse for.


Furthermore:
{Scrubbed}

All stats could be done with an in game aptitude test (str/dex/int are the easy ones to figure out, con would be figured out by just having them do something like jumping jacks until they pass out, wisdom would be something like a listening test, or a spot the difference game, while charisma would be the hardest to measure unless the DM just has charisma be physical beauty.

[Jade_Skye]

I had a character who did a similar thing. He wanted to become a lich and the DM required a sacrifice of a living good human, so I found a really poor, good hearted peasant and offered to give his entire family enough money to live the rest of their lives and become craftsmen or whatever if he was my sacrifice.

I mean, not that similar cause I totally killed him, but it's in the same ballpark.

I can totally see my character saying he's doing something like that if need be.

[smasher0404]

I think you may need to ask your DM a few setting-specific questions:

1) How high magic is your setting? AKA, Is high level magic such as Raise Dead commonly known? Does the government have proper legislation in case of magic?

If the government outlaws outward necromancy (as many would do in a world where Necromancy is necessarily an evil act) then it is likely even purchasing the rights to the body will have you persecuted.

A world with lower average magic would likely put you in a much grayer area of legality when it comes to necromancy, and such contracts would be plausible.

A downside to a lower magic setting however, it makes it more likely that the body after death is not treated as the property of the deceased but rather the property of the next of kin (but honestly that just changes who you negotiate with)

2) How does the world view the animation of undead?

Related to question 1, if the world views Undead creation as a morally neutral act (regardless of the alignment subtype), there may already be a system in place to buy corpses.

If it is viewed as evil, like in question 1, you may find that making a legally binding contract is impossible.

3) How valuable is a gold piece to your layperson?

One thing that is poorly laid out is the average wealth in the world. By RAW, untrained labourers earn a single silver piece per day. However, the tables also tend to populate the world with high level NPCs in cities and mid-level NPCs in towns. That'll bring average wages up, devaluing a gold piece to a layperson. While a lot of the costs for an adventurer stays the same between campaigns, a layperson's wealth will change from setting to setting and from DM to DM.

While I, like Falontani, find the Lords of Madness' slave prices a useful guideline, a big portion of this question ends up being ask your DM.

TL;DR: Ask your DM, because it will vary from campaign to campaign

[Wraith]

In Victorian Britain there was a criminal profession known as Resurrectionists - which was a polite euphemism for "body snatcher". Due to a particular quirk in law, human bodies weren't considered property, so as long as you stripped them naked of all their clothes and jewellery and left it behind, it was not technically illegal to take a dead body from a cemetery. I mean, morally and ethically it was horrendous, but it's only kidnapping if they're breathing....

While only tangentially related trivia, I would be inclined to ask your GM about whether or not this applies in your game's world, with a mind to purchasing bodies wholesale rather than individually. Battlefields, prisons and anywhere that you would find a pauper's mass-grave are going to have a surplus of unclaimed, unwanted bodies hanging about the place, so perhaps it would be possible for your Dread Necromancer to strike a deal with the local authorities?

They're bodies of criminals, or enemy soldiers, or vagrant peasants; nobody really wants to have to spend time and effort having to deal with them. Then along comes this finely-dressed man(?) who smiles warmly, shakes your hand, tells you that he is a mage, and would like to help solve the problem for you. He'll even pay you in gold for the privilege of doing your dirty work; all you have to do is make sure that the bodies he gets aren't anyone that's going to be missed.
What do you say to that? :smalltongue:

Such an approach would very likely solve the problem of logistics, too. Rather than having to traipse back-and-forth to return to people who had bought a contract (and probably tried to find a way to weasel out of it), you would have a much easier time of simply travelling a circular route, stopping by a town or village every few months to catch up with the friendly local authorities so as to see the most recent 'crop'. It's certainly safer than following an army from battlefield to battlefield.... Unless you also feel like getting a commission from such an army, advising on their staff in between your own pursuits for a tidy fee on the side!

It also offers interesting plot-hooks to your GM. Maybe one of these guys gets greedy and tries to extort you for more money lest he tell the broader community what you're doing? Or maybe they make a mistake and one of the bodies to take away was a Prince who should have been returned to his kingdom, or even a Cleric of a Good-aligned God and his buddies are none-too-pleased with your (perfectly legal) deals. Something to think about. :smallbiggrin:

[Malphegor]

I think I recall in that Dragon article about Wee Jas it claimed that Jasidites do this, actually. They're big on the lawful side of obtaining what one desires, but then, Wee Jas is the death goddess of the 'actually getting on with the process of death' side of death, rather than most of the others 'mwahahahaha, mess about with being eeeevil!' shenanigans.

There is some fascinating stuff in D&D with consent having a magical power of its own with willing creature saves- you could be well in your rights to say that if the person consented to being reanimated after death, that your spells upon them come easier.

[Jade_Skye]

While only tangentially related trivia, I would be inclined to ask your GM about whether or not this applies in your game's world, with a mind to purchasing bodies wholesale rather than individually. Battlefields, prisons and anywhere that you would find a pauper's mass-grave are going to have a surplus of unclaimed, unwanted bodies hanging about the place, so perhaps it would be possible for your Dread Necromancer to strike a deal with the local authorities?

They're bodies of criminals, or enemy soldiers, or vagrant peasants; nobody really wants to have to spend time and effort having to deal with them. Then along comes this finely-dressed man(?) who smiles warmly, shakes your hand, tells you that he is a mage, and would like to help solve the problem for you. He'll even pay you in gold for the privilege of doing your dirty work; all you have to do is make sure that the bodies he gets aren't anyone that's going to be missed.

Hmmm...it's an interesting prospect, and something he might be willing to look into as another way of keeping up appearances and seemingly legitimate uses of corpses. But really part of the reason he deals with people while they're living is to be able to easily infect them with cysts, which won't be possible or useful with the already dead.

[magic9mushroom]

And yes, it doesn't tell him when they die- that's just an excuse to get his cysts in them without them fighting it.

That's Bluff vs. Sense Motive.

RAW Dread Necromancers don't know the spells from Mother Cyst without selecting them with Advanced Learning.

Also, expect do-gooders to come after you; even if your behaviour appears legal, creating undead and necrotic cysts is still [Evil].

[Jade_Skye]

That's Bluff vs. Sense Motive.

RAW Dread Necromancers don't know the spells from Mother Cyst without selecting them with Advanced Learning.

Also, expect do-gooders to come after you; even if your behaviour appears legal, creating undead and necrotic cysts is still [Evil].

The feat mother cyst gives me them " The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below (and described in Chapter 4 of Libris Mortis). You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst (if you are a caster who prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for each such spell)." Am I reading something wrong there? If so, my character is going to need some serious reworking....although my dm might allow me access to it anyway, as he's liking the plot.

[magic9mushroom]

The feat mother cyst gives me them " The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below (and described in Chapter 4 of Libris Mortis). You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst (if you are a caster who prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for each such spell)." Am I reading something wrong there? If so, my character is going to need some serious reworking....although my dm might allow me access to it anyway, as he's liking the plot.

The basic issue is that they are not on the DN spell list and Mother Cyst doesn't precisely add them. They're cleric and sor/wiz spells that you can't cast without a mother cyst (focus requirement). There's two things between a DN and the spells - the spell list and the cyst focus - and the Mother Cyst feat seemingly only removes the latter.

Now, the elephant in the room here is that they'd absolutely be on the DN spell list if the DN had been in Libris Mortis (unlike, say, a Beguiler). Would I let a DN add Necrotic Cyst spells, with that feat cost? Probably. Is it RAW? Probably not.

(There's also an issue with Sorcerers and whether Mother Cyst grants them to you as free Spells Known - cheesily powerful - or just lets you cast them if you take them as some of your standard Spells Known - garbage.)

[Talverin]

You could always go to towns and offer to purchase their criminals? If execution is already to be their fate, added bonus; they tell you when the execution is, and you have a collection date.

If it's a land that uses slavery as a punishment, you could even offer to 'buy out' their sentence.

Additional flavor, perhaps your character could be a skilled executioner, perhaps with a preference for one method or another that makes cleanup and rehabilitation of the corpse easier than otherwise? Poison, throat slitting, perhaps hanging (But reattaching those damn vertebrae is such work!) would be your specialty, and you also offer your services in a 'humane' execution that way.

[Falontani]

You could always go to towns and offer to purchase their criminals? If execution is already to be their fate, added bonus; they tell you when the execution is, and you have a collection date.

If it's a land that uses slavery as a punishment, you could even offer to 'buy out' their sentence.

Additional flavor, perhaps your character could be a skilled executioner, perhaps with a preference for one method or another that makes cleanup and rehabilitation of the corpse easier than otherwise? Poison, throat slitting, perhaps hanging (But reattaching those damn vertebrae is such work!) would be your specialty, and you also offer your services in a 'humane' execution that way.

Paralysis + coup de grace with a fell animate inflict wounds spell?

[Quertus]

And yes, it doesn't tell him when they die- that's just an excuse to get his cysts in them without them fighting it. Will he take advantage of spreading the amount of peole with necrotic cysts in them in various ways...definitely, but that will be a slow reveal as it'll take a lot of leveling to do something useful with this. I just like the idea of him slowly growing an unsuspecting army of cyst positive people.


That's Bluff vs. Sense Motive.

And also Spellcraft, for anyone with the skill who happens to be watching (including your party...).