Options to fit in this party? (Barb, Sorc, Fighter, Wizard)

[Snowbluff]

Thread title. I might be joining a game potentially. The team is striker x2, controller, and a defender. There is an NPC healer but I think my main role should be healer. However, I do like being proactive as well... is there a way to greatly improve the amount of healing of something like say, a paladin can do? It's been a while since I've even looked at 4e so I'm a bit rusty and my books are dusty. :smalltongue:

[masteraleph]

There is an NPC healer but I think my main role should be healer. However, I do like being proactive as well...

Good news! There's no such thing in 4e!

OK, explanation: while healing is valuable on the part of a leader, a leader's primary goal should never be healing (and the Pacifist Cleric is an abomination that should never have been printed). I have no idea what level you're looking at, but let's take a look at some level 3 leader options:

1) The Warlord. Could be STR|INT, STR|CHA, or even INT|CHA if you want to lead from behind. You take Direct the Strike and/or Commander's Strike as your at will, so at worst, you get to swing a Barbarian or Fighter or even, depending on the at will/stat choices, a Sorcerer at the enemy on any given turn. You take either Powerful Warning or Vengeance is mine at level 1, giving you an Immediate action which should trigger every encounter and again lets you swing an ally at an enemy. Take the other one at level 3. Lamb to the Slaughter can be a DEVASTATING Daily- if your Sorcerer has Ensorcelled Blade, then you give your Barb, Fighter, and Sorcerer charge attacks against one enemy. Alternatively, if you've got good INT, Lead the Attack can grant a huge bonus.

2) The Shaman. Go Wis|Int, Elemental Shaman. Spirit Infusion on a WIS|INT race can give your allies a big power bonus to attack and hit with an MBA. Sly Fox Spirit at level 3 gives you a lovely 2x MBA Encounter power.

3) Valor Bard. Staggering Note for attack granting (and if you're a half elf, take Direct the Strike as your dilettante power for an even better one). Blunder for an upgrade to that as your level 1 Encounter. Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade at level 3 for a beautiful Interrupt to turn an ally's miss into a hit and you get to hit as well, and it's super accurate if you're wielding a dagger because it's a Weapon attack vs. Reflex.


is there a way to greatly improve the amount of healing of something like say, a paladin can do? It's been a while since I've even looked at 4e so I'm a bit rusty and my books are dusty. :smalltongue:

Sure: Hybrid it with Warlord (or even better, if you don't expect to get to Epic, Hybrid Cavalier with Warlord instead). Go Tiefling as your race. For Feats, pick Wrath of the Crimson Legion for a CHA based MBA and a Burst 5 Divine Sanction. Take Call of Challenge as your U2, and Valorous Smite as either your E1 or E3. Boom- 3 Encounter Mass marks by level 2 or 3, and either Hybrid Divine Challenge or the Cavalier's Aura for backup afterwards. Take Vengeance is Mine as the other E1/3, because it gives you a great catch 22- they attack someone else, you punish with your mark, they attack you, you punish with Vengeance is Mine. Pick up Rousing Words at level 6 for a second Encounter heal. You get good defenses, your choice of CHA|INT for warlord riders or CHA|CON for durability, multiple mass marks, healing, and attack granting.

Edit: I should actually note though, check with your fighter before doing that last one. It makes you quite a powerful defender, and they might feel like you’re stepping on their toes. Also, if you’re playing at a high enough level, Multi class paladin can get you everything that hybrid would. But you need to be able to what power swap for a utility power.

[Kurald Galain]

1) The Warlord. Could be STR|INT, STR|CHA, or even INT|CHA if you want to lead from behind. You take Direct the Strike and/or Commander's Strike as your at will, so at worst, you get to swing a Barbarian or Fighter or even, depending on the at will/stat choices, a Sorcerer at the enemy on any given turn. You take either Powerful Warning or Vengeance is mine at level 1, giving you an Immediate action which should trigger every encounter and again lets you swing an ally at an enemy. Take the other one at level 3. Lamb to the Slaughter can be a DEVASTATING Daily- if your Sorcerer has Ensorcelled Blade, then you give your Barb, Fighter, and Sorcerer charge attacks against one enemy. Alternatively, if you've got good INT, Lead the Attack can grant a huge bonus.
I second this. Be proactive as a leader by directing your allies and handing out bonuses and extra attacks like candy. My personal favorites are Orchestrate Offense and Scent of Victory as dailies, Prophetic Guidance (from multiclassing to cleric), Powerful Warning or Everybody Move skill powers, Leader's Intercession, and the Ninth Legion Style feat so you can direct others even as an opportunity attack. This goes nicely with the Deva race and the Shared Memory feat so you can hand out your racial ability to others as well. Wield a barbarian with style!

[Kimera757]

I once had a party with no leader, after the player of the shaman left. Our main healing role was split, with most of the in-combat healing coming from a paladin hospitaler. (We had reached paragon level by this point.)

It's harder though. I don't recall if Lay on Hands is a standard or a minor action, but it's melee range, so it takes up the paladin's move action.

[MwaO]

Something to potentially think about here with almost any class:
MC Warlord with Resourceful Leader, Bravura Leader. At 8th, power swap for Rousing Words with Acolyte Power. Go Freedom Fighter as a Paragon Path.

MC Shaman with Spirit Talker, take Mending Spirit feat, go Soul Igniter as a Paragon Path. This is the fastest way to encounter heals, potentially as early as 1st level with a Human.

Hybrid. Hybriding Cleric onto almost anything when you take Battle Cleric's Lore instead of Healing Lore for free Scale Armor and an additional +2 to AC can really do some decent things with fixing the lack of a healer, but at the same time, giving you the choice of almost whatever you want to play on top of it.

[ThePurple]

I once had a party with no leader, after the player of the shaman left. Our main healing role was split, with most of the in-combat healing coming from a paladin hospitaler. (We had reached paragon level by this point.)

The biggest problems I've seen with lacking a leader in 4e is that healing surges suddenly become much less efficient, especially if you're used to a leader taking Restful Healing so that all of those loads of dice that they provide are maximized. Even a DPR optimized Resourceful Leader can afford to drop a couple choices on increasing healing provided, which does ridiculous things to healing surge value (consider a level 11 Fighter is going to have a surge value of ~21-24; a Resourceful Warlord with Restful Healing can boost that by 18, with a *lot* more possible via stuff like Improved Inspiring Word and Fey Tactics, so you're pretty much doubling or even tripling the efficiency of every healing surge).

It won't matter *too* much if you're running a more "5 minute day" style campaign in which no one really gets close to spending all of their HSs, but, if you're running a more attrition model style of game (like I do), it becomes a functional necessity to have at least 1 leader around, if only to increase healing surge efficiency out of combat since, without a leader, that party quickly burns through all of their surges.

[Yakk]

Honestly, because the optimization range of 4e easily hits a factor of 3, even "the leader helps you recover" becomes unimportant against fixed enemy difficulty.

But enemy difficulty isn't fixed, it *scales with how badass the DM thinks your party is*. Leaders "downtime heal" support does not feel badass. So the DM is far far less likely to scale enemies based off of its power.

Melting a solo in a single round of insane damage? The DM is likely to make the next solo harder, or throw 2 solos at the party. Recovering an entire party's lost HP with the expenditure of 3 healing surges? Not something the DM is as likely to respond to with "ok, I guess you never get an extended rest until you reach epic tier".

A leader is like a seatbelt. It has been found that improved performance and handling of a car and roads doesn't change the death rate while driving it, but does increase the speed the people drive on those roads. But seatbelts don't make people feel safe in proportion to how much they actually make people safer -- people may feel safer, but only a little bit. In fact, they are much much safer. So people don't "up" their risk taking enough to compensate for the seatbelt.

Quiet power can make campaigns much more survivable because the DM doesn't instinctively compensate for the power with harder foes.

[darkbard]

The biggest problems I've seen with lacking a leader in 4e is that healing surges suddenly become much less efficient, especially if you're used to a leader taking Restful Healing so that all of those loads of dice that they provide are maximized. Even a DPR optimized Resourceful Leader can afford to drop a couple choices on increasing healing provided, which does ridiculous things to healing surge value (consider a level 11 Fighter is going to have a surge value of ~21-24; a Resourceful Warlord with Restful Healing can boost that by 18, with a *lot* more possible via stuff like Improved Inspiring Word and Fey Tactics, so you're pretty much doubling or even tripling the efficiency of every healing surge).

Brief tangent: I don't recall ever seeing a resource compiling various ways to boost healing capacity: items, feats, etc. Is there one, aside from various sections spread across subsections of CharOp guides? (Perhaps this is because boosting healing is usually outside the purview of CharOp analysis.)

[MwaO]

Brief tangent: I don't recall ever seeing a resource compiling various ways to boost healing capacity: items, feats, etc. Is there one, aside from various sections spread across subsections of CharOp guides? (Perhaps this is because boosting healing is usually outside the purview of CharOp analysis.)

In general, boosting healing goes directly towards grindy combats for a variety of reasons. So it didn't get talked about a lot.

Or in other words, why did you need more healing? Because you spent too many resources on healing.

[darkbard]

In general, boosting healing goes directly towards grindy combats for a variety of reasons. So it didn't get talked about a lot.

Or in other words, why did you need more healing? Because you spent too many resources on healing.

For sure. But that doesn't really answer my question, except perhaps implicitly: it hasn't been done (for the reason you cite).

Nevertheless, I'm pretty certain it would be useful for some groups who are genuinely looking for boosts to healing not because they already have spent too many resources on it but rather for circumstances like not having a Leader in the party, etc. (Your post above would be an ideal component of such a resource!)

[MwaO]

For sure. But that doesn't really answer my question, except perhaps implicitly: it hasn't been done (for the reason you cite).

Nevertheless, I'm pretty certain it would be useful for some groups who are genuinely looking for boosts to healing not because they already have spent too many resources on it but rather for circumstances like not having a Leader in the party, etc. (Your post above would be an ideal component of such a resource!)

Almost as if I've written a few guides to deal with just that :)
Three Step Role Handbook — quickly pick up a role with 3 options.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468787-Three-Step-Role-Handbook(by-MwaO)

Variation on Themes — rates the various themes and assigns them 'roles'
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468784-Variation-on-Themes(by-MwaO)&prefixid=wotc

Poachable Powers — what powers are good to pick up from other classes
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468783-4e-Poachable-Powers-List-A-list-of-good-powers-to-poach-from-other-classes

Skill Power Guide — rates the various skill powers, some are very solid leader options
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?527270-I-ve-Got-That-Utility-Skill-Power-Guide

Pick a good Leader or protective Defender theme such as Hospitaler. MC Warlord or Shaman. Pick a good Leader paragon path such as Freedom Fighter or Soul Igniter. Maybe do a power swap for an extra heal or take Mending Spirit. Maybe pick up one of the various leader skill powers — Cry for Mercy is +4 to all defenses for a full round to whoever is getting beat on the most as an example.

These are all things that can be easily attached to almost any build unless it has something locked for reasons.

[darkbard]

Almost as if I've written a few guides to deal with just that :)
Three Step Role Handbook — quickly pick up a role with 3 options.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468787-Three-Step-Role-Handbook(by-MwaO)

Variation on Themes — rates the various themes and assigns them 'roles'
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468784-Variation-on-Themes(by-MwaO)&prefixid=wotc

Poachable Powers — what powers are good to pick up from other classes
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468783-4e-Poachable-Powers-List-A-list-of-good-powers-to-poach-from-other-classes

Skill Power Guide — rates the various skill powers, some are very solid leader options
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?527270-I-ve-Got-That-Utility-Skill-Power-Guide

Pick a good Leader or protective Defender theme such as Hospitaler. MC Warlord or Shaman. Pick a good Leader paragon path such as Freedom Fighter or Soul Igniter. Maybe do a power swap for an extra heal or take Mending Spirit. Maybe pick up one of the various leader skill powers — Cry for Mercy is +4 to all defenses for a full round to whoever is getting beat on the most as an example.

These are all things that can be easily attached to almost any build unless it has something locked for reasons.

Excellent resources, all! Now imagine a guide that was focused on the aspects of the Leader role (akin to svenj's "When Everyone is Super" miniguide to damage optimization, i.e. Striker role), collecting aspects from those various guides plus relevant Feats and Magic Items that boost healing or granted attacks or save granting, etc.

I think it would be a cool resource for new players (or just those with less system mastery) to be able to know that, sure, your Warlock can actually fill the Leader role pretty well by choosing X, Y, and Z plus prioritizing Feats A and B and adding items C, D, and E to their wish list.

Could be done for Defender and Controller, as well.

Your 3 Step Guide is an excellent, truly invaluable first step in such a venture.

[MwaO]

Excellent resources, all! Now imagine a guide that was focused on the aspects of the Leader role (akin to svenj's "When Everyone is Super" miniguide to damage optimization, i.e. Striker role), collecting aspects from those various guides plus relevant Feats and Magic Items that boost healing or granted attacks or save granting, etc.

"When Everyone is Super" is not limited to Strikers though. Usually, everyone benefits when everyone increases their damage at approximately the same rates over time. Leaders increase their power faster than usual or get too specific in their leading and campaigns can die.

[darkbard]

"When Everyone is Super" is not limited to Strikers though.

Yeah, I get that. What I'm saying, though, is that in the same way that WEIS helps any class boost its Striker capacity (in this case, Striker being shorthand for damage output, though, obviously, there is more to being a Striker than this), there isn't really a single guide to help a character that is not a Leader be a better one or how to address specific weaknesses within a class designed to fill a role (like Clerics and enabling, for example). Your 3-Step Role guide is an excellent start to this, but it doesn't address the question of "Okay, our party has no dedicated Leader, so I've taken these steps and yet still find our party is behind the curve in area X (healing, save granting, etc.)." What are the feats and items, etc. that can, for example, boost healing in the way already addressed in this thread. If I have hybridded for X Class to fulfill this role, is there a MC feat or specific items that will add to my ability to fulfill this particular aspect of the role?

I guess what I'm envisioning is a single guide for each of the 4 roles that goes far beyond the "Art of X-ing" guides that were written at the beginning of the edition, collecting information from various resources like the guides you have written, and so on.

But maybe I'm just being silly and that information is already out there, just not collected into a single place.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Gonna second the recommendation for Warlord. That class is super fun to play, and adds a lot to any group, with healing and more importantly tactical re-positioning and other tricks.

[NomGarret]

Even a dedicated Leader is going to do a lot more than just heal. It’s generally a minor action, so you can almost always heal and bash skulls in any given round. You can certainly get by with any number of classes dabbling in healing, but for the sake of helping steer you in a direction, let’s presume a straight Leader.

Digging a little deeper, what skills aren’t covered by the current group, particularly ones that have come up in the campaign? Artificer might be a fit if your DM throws a lot of Thievery checks your way. If the list is long Bard is always good. What statuses do the other party members generate for themselves and what would they like more of? Are the fighter and barbarian swimming in temp hp or is that something for you to contribute? How about defense bonuses? Everyone loves attack bonuses, and combat advantage is great even without a rogue peeking up at the mention. Does the wizard Have trouble laying down area powers because party members keep getting stuck in the way? Pick some powers to slide them out of the way.

[MinotaurWarblad]

You need a leader, so...
The fighter could use a pet warlord to grant attacks so he gets more marks. The barbarian loves the warlord, to.
Sorcerers like artificers for providing big damage boosts through powers like Magic Weapon and Punishing Eye (those static bonuses are especially helpful for sorcs since their powers tend to have really swingy damage dice, which often puts them on the low end of striker damage output).
That being said, with a sorcerer and a wizard in the same party you’ll probably get the most benefit from a bard who slides enemies together so the sorc and wizard can more reliably drop AoE artillery on groups of foes.