ELI5: Cross-class skills becoming class skills (multiclassing) (3.5e)

[AmeVulpes]

What happens to your cross-class skills when they become class skills?

I've narrowed it down to three possibilities.
1) Your cross-class skill ranks instantly double when they become class skills (and cap changes).
2) You get refunded 50% of the skill points invested in said skills, ranks stay the same (but cap changes).
3) Cap is raised, nothing else changes, and **** you.




I made this a thread instead of a RAW Q&A because I thought it might spark debate.

[Kurald Galain]

What happens to your cross-class skills when they become class skills?

I've narrowed it down to three possibilities.
1) Your cross-class skill ranks instantly double when they become class skills.
2) You get refunded 50% of the skill points invested in said skills, ranks stay the same.
3) Cap is raised, nothing else changes, and **** you.

#3 in 3.5, and #1 in Pathfinder (well it's +3 instead of x2 in PF, but you do retroactively get the full bonus when you multiclass).

[AmeVulpes]

Title changed to reflect edition used.

Could you point me to any citation of this, or is it just the lack of anything to the contrary?

[Jeraa]

Title changed to reflect edition used.

Could you point me to any citation of this, or is it just the lack of anything to the contrary?

Page 58, Player's Handbook.

Remember that you buy skills based on the class you have advanced in, so that only those skills given as class skills for that class can be purchased as class skills for this level, regardless of what other classes you may have levels in.

Page 60, Player's Handbook.


Skill points are spent according to the class that the multiclass character just advanced in (see Table 4–1: Skill Points per Level, page 62). Skills purchased from Table 4–2: Skills are purchased at the cost appropriate for that class.


Her rogue skills and sneak attack capability, however, do not improve. She could spend some of her 4 skill points to improve her rogue skills, but, since they would be treated as cross-class skills for a wizard, these skill points would each buy only one-half rank. (The exceptions are any Craft or Profession skills she may have, since Craft and Profession are class skills for both the rogue and the wizard.)

Skill points are still spent as normal for a particular class. The only thing that changes is the cap. The number of points required for a rank depends entirely on what your last class level gained was.

So the correct answer from the first post is (3).

[magic9mushroom]

What happens to your cross-class skills when they become class skills?

I've narrowed it down to three possibilities.
1) Your cross-class skill ranks instantly double when they become class skills (and cap changes).
2) You get refunded 50% of the skill points invested in said skills, ranks stay the same (but cap changes).
3) Cap is raised, nothing else changes, and **** you.




I made this a thread instead of a RAW Q&A because I thought it might spark debate.

In 3.5 skills are considered class or cross-class for each individual level. If I'm a Wizard1/Cleric1 and I take another level of Cleric, I would have to pay double to raise Knowledge (nature) despite Knowledge (nature) being a class skill for Wizard.

So it's #3. You paid for the skills as cross-class, and they're still cross-class if you go back to the class that treated them as cross-class.

[AmeVulpes]

In 3.5 skills are considered class or cross-class for each individual level. If I'm a Wizard1/Cleric1 and I take another level of Cleric, I would have to pay double to raise Knowledge (nature) despite Knowledge (nature) being a class skill for Wizard.

So it's #3. You paid for the skills as cross-class, and they're still cross-class if you go back to the class that treated them as cross-class.


Skill points are still spent as normal for a particular class. The only thing that changes is the cap. The number of points required for a rank depends entirely on what your last class level gained was.

So the correct answer from the first post is (3).

SRD says this:

Skills
If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Will look for a direct book citation. Not sure if it changes anything, or which of two utterly conflicting, equally specific, rules wins.

Nevermind, this clearly refers only to maximum rank. Thank you both.

[Malphegor]

Where this comes into play a lot I find is when you take ranks in a cross class skill to qualify for a class that has those as class skills.

I was under the belief that your whole multiclass counts though, so if you got knowledge religion as a class skill, it’s always a class skill for you even if you take a level of something without knowledge religion. This may be silly (Taking a level in a generalist high skill point class that doesn’t have spellcraft to boost your spellcraft), but that’s what I thought.

[Zaq]

Invested skill points don’t change unless an extremely rare game element (like Truename Training) says they do. You only care about how you spend your points when leveling up. This is forward-looking.

There’s two factors here. One is how much a skill costs, and the other is your cap. They approach class skills differently, so it can be confusing.

First, the cost. If a skill is a class skill for THIS level, it costs 1 point per rank. If it’s cross-class at THIS level, it costs 1 point per 1/2 rank. For cost, only THIS level matters.

Next, cap. If a skill has EVER been a class skill for this level or any previous level, your cap is (HD + 3). If a skill has NEVER been a class skill for ANY of your levels, your cap is (HD + 3)/2. For cap, you only care about if a skill has EVER been a class skill for ANY of your levels, including but not limited to this one.

That’s pretty much all there is to it in the absence of a feat or another game element that explicitly changes things. Clear as mud?

[AmeVulpes]

Clear as mud?

Yep. This thread sprung from a faulty reading of my earlier-cited rules for the skill cap. I thought that things were always a class skill if they were at any point.

Thanks for the rundown.

[noob]

Yep. This thread sprung from a faulty reading of my earlier-cited rules for the skill cap. I thought that things were always a class skill if they were at any point.

Thanks for the rundown.

on the other hand the cap is forever calculated as if it was a class skill.

[bean illus]

I suppose it's worth mentioning some of the 'solutions'. Usually these solutions are considered early in a build, but theoretically some could be used later on..

Of course there's the feat able learner,
but it's a first-level only feat, and only human or doppelganger. Cross-class skills cost one rank, though their limit stays the same.

Human Paragon 1 gives adaptive learning, which designates one chosen skill as a class skill forever. It's not very optimized because the level doesn't give much else, though it does let you choose any 10 skills as class skills.
But if you strategically split up three levels of human paragon you can get quite a bit done, by pumping those skills in later levels after your max ranks has risen.
The next two levels of HP rock though, with a bonus feat, +2 to any ability score, and + 1 spell caster level at each level.

I'm sure there's more, including items and probably feats. And I'm sure that most of you already knew that. I was just adding it.