Magic and RL Govt response

[Xar Zarath]

So if magic according to dnd and PF were suddenly real and usable by people here on Earth, that is to say anyone could use it...how would governments all across the world react? Contain it, experiment or just plain kill off anyone who wants to use magic?

[BowStreetRunner]

All of the above, and more. I doubt there would be a single uniform response. Take a look at how governments throughout history have responded to the discoveries of science. From treating science as witchcraft or heresy, to embracing the potential for military and economic power, governments of different types have all had a complex and varied response that is constantly changing and evolving. I imagine any magical discoveries would endure much the same sort of reactions.

[JeenLeen]

Noting forum rules forbid discussing RL politics, but taking this as a fictionalized account of a world similar to ours except magic

A lot probably depends on how prevalent its appearence is. If it's just a small percentage of the population... that's a really different reaction than if every 10th person can now cast level 1 spells and every 1000th level 9 spells.

I really like the pragmatism shown in the Grrlpower webcomic. It's superheroes, not magic, but that's close enough for most purposes. Supers are a low percentage of the population. In it, the USA has a press release stating supers are regular citizens (e.g., nothing like a Mutant Registration Act) unless they use their powers illegally, but all the same laws apply. If you want to be a vigiliante, become a cop or join the (newly formed super branch of) the army.

And Trippy-verse stuff might start to apply, as food scarcity and travel potentially become non-issues due to Create/Purify Food and Drink and stuff like Teleportation Rings.

Probably there'll be a mix of reactions from "kill them all as monsters" to "let them be citizens" to "they are operatives of the state now".
Grrlpower does make the noteworthy comment that treating supers as citizens is a good way to keep them from trying to overthrow the 'normie' oppressors.

[Ashtagon]

GURPS Technomancer covers this in great detail. The basic premise for the setting is that the Trinity nuclear bomb test unleashed magical potential in the world, especially in the fallout area surrounding it.

[noob]

Nothing would actually change: due to the lack of supernatural creatures and how sorcerers needs supernatural ancestry there would be no sorcerers and wizards does not appears spontaneously(you need to start researching magic and the odds of finding how to do magic without watching some creature that does is low furthermore not knowing there is magic is an additional blockade).
The only risks for appearance of magic would be divine magic and even then it would be unlikely: clerics/priests/whatever usually does not pray for their god to grant them spells and furthermore even if some does it would not necessarily do the prayer right or have enough faith for getting the spell.
So what would happen is probably that miracles could be more likely if they did not already happen.
(and trust me: miracles are not enough for getting all the people to believe nor for convincing people magic is possible and that they should go to the physicians and try to replicate that)

[DdarkED]

Nothing would actually change: due to the lack of supernatural creatures and how sorcerers needs supernatural ancestry there would be no sorcerers and wizards does not appears spontaneously(you need to start researching magic and the odds of finding how to do magic without watching some creature that does is low furthermore not knowing there is magic is an additional blockade).
The only risks for appearance of magic would be divine magic and even then it would be unlikely: clerics/priests/whatever usually does not pray for their god to grant them spells and furthermore even if some does it would not necessarily do the prayer right or have enough faith for getting the spell.
So what would happen is probably that miracles could be more likely if they did not already happen.

didnt pathfinder make it so that supernatural ancestry was not required? my pathfinder knowledge is low (mostly from the pathfinder kingmaker pc game) but on of the options was your family was wizards harry so now your a sorc. which i guess is still supernatural but different then what we normally consider 3.5 sorcs ancestry. at the very least eventually sorcs would be born from "wizarding" families.

[Caedes]

Noting forum rules forbid discussing RL politics, but taking this as a fictionalized account of a world similar to ours except magic

It all depends...

Does this magic get bestowed upon a person that has theorycrafted said magical powers their entire life? And after dissappearing for a month or so to refine their control comeback as a God Wizard? Ready to take advantage of all the chaos sown by those less practiced and studied than theirselves? Then using said practiced and refined powers to not only gather those of like mind but to make a push that the modern technology and sciences of the day can't do anything against a scry --> teleport --> and baleful polymorph of what ever person is leading said fictional countries and worlds? Giving rise to a new empire that may always be under constant threat but thanks to to their life long pursuit of nerdery and planning of such a day happening, their god wizard neurocies keep them safe from all such "modern" threats.

But in the back of their mind they know that no matter how neurotic they are. At some point they will be set upon by a group of adventurers that through pluck and derring do will find the one chink to their protections and bring an end to them. So they spend all their time setting up clones and protections and setting up demiplanes to try to extend their life beyond anything any mere mortal has planned?!


... In short the world becomes Shadowrun or maybe Ebberron if this fictional world is lucky. But in truth it may end up being a combination of Darksun and shadowrun combined. A truly terrible place. 2% chance it ends up being like Faerun in the long run. Maybe less.

[Ashtagon]

didnt pathfinder make it so that supernatural ancestry was not required? my pathfinder knowledge is low (mostly from the pathfinder kingmaker pc game) but on of the options was your family was wizards harry so now your a sorc. which i guess is still supernatural but different then what we normally consider 3.5 sorcs ancestry. at the very least eventually sorcs would be born from "wizarding" families.

For purposes of the sorcerer class, "ancestry" has pretty much nothing to do with bloodline genetics or inheritance. Getting kissed by a fey creature can be enough. That's been true since the class was first written.

[DdarkED]

For purposes of the sorcerer class, "ancestry" has pretty much nothing to do with bloodline genetics or inheritance. Getting kissed by a fey creature can be enough. That's been true since the class was first written.

his premise(the poster Noob) was a lack of all supernatural entities besides D&D/PF casters in the setting. so no nymph kisses to be had. no magic kisses of any kind. (except caster kisses)

[Karl Aegis]

Good government prevents change. Status Quo or GTFO!

[Blackhawk748]

In the more developed regions they would start churning out licenses. So many licenses, and new taxes! Cuz why not?

In other places I could see a few trying to set themselves up as magical warlords, because Fireball isn't a joke IRL, it's a very threatening weapon.

Other than that? Business as usual except that you could probably get a PHD in Magic in the following decades

[DdarkED]

The O.P said if Magic came into the world. I.E unexplainably and inexplicably there. I think it is ok to look at the intent of the question instead of rules lawyering.

Though that being said that is probably what a RL govt. would do...

except i am responding to Noob not the original poster. so i am not sure what your point is.

[noob]

But the thing is that if dnd magic rules came in play the only thing that would happen for a really long while would be sightly increased amounts of miracles(and that is if there was not already gods in real life).
Then maybe later with significant amounts of luck there could finally be some sorcerers from clerical origins (their parents were touched by a cleric or some nonsense like that) and it would be at that moment that stuff could change massively but as we can see in the rules:


Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.
So you need to spend 15 minutes concentrating before regaining spells but those sorcerers have no reason to suspect that so they might never have the idea to do that and even if one suspected it could cast spells it would be unlikely to find that it have to concentrate nor the way to concentrate that is needed.

[DdarkED]

But the thing is that if dnd magic rules came in play the only thing that would happen for a really long while would be sightly increased amounts of miracles(and that is if there was not already gods in real life).

interesting thought, what if with the appearance of (D&Desque) gods, one like mystra also showed up and you know taught some mofos magic. that is just as likely no?

[noob]

interesting thought, what if with the appearance of (D&Desque) gods, one like mystra also showed up and you know taught some mofos magic. that is just as likely no?

If we add more dnd stuff in it accelerate the change(also I was still typing my previous post so you might want to read it again)

[NichG]

Hiding it, killing those with it, or otherwise taking antagonistic stances are basically inevitably self-destructive. So your savvy government would, instead, engineer social norms around it. Specifically, they would need to very quickly work to create some particular image of 'this is an example of a perfectly normal person with powers, and how they behave socially', such that there is tension when people deviate from it but acceptance or accolades when people obey it. Most people coming into powers will expand their self-conception around existing relationships and social structures - they might make their best friend rich or immortal or things like that, but they're unlikely to jump straight to trying to rule the world with a cadre of strangers. So the higher the chance that one of those close contacts will exert pressure to keep them in line, the less work the government has to do with crude forms of force.

[DdarkED]

i did. it dose not change my response. in, i believe a reasonable likely hood, if your allowing D&D equivalent clerics to exist a cleric of mystra/or in the belief/concept of magic (the name is just an ez to use analogue ) would want to teach people/spread knowledge of arcane magic.

[noob]

i did. it dos not change my response. in, i believe a reasonable likely hood, if your allowing D&D equivalent clerics to exist a cleric of mystra/or in the belief/concept of magic (the name is just an ez to use analogue ) would want to teach people/spread knowledge of arcane magic.

The problem is that it would be hard for a cleric to know how to cast spells nor to know it was magic and not god or the spaghetti monster or something like that which did a miracle.
So why would there be a cleric of magic that would find how to cast spells?
It is unlikely because you need both a huge faith and to know the weird dnd stuff to do and to be willing to do those(which would be unlikely because as far as most people know if there is magic the people the closest to getting it are scientists)

[Ashtagon]

But the thing is that if dnd magic rules came in play the only thing that would happen for a really long while would be sightly increased amounts of miracles(and that is if there was not already gods in real life).
Then maybe later with significant amounts of luck there could finally be some sorcerers from clerical origins (their parents were touched by a cleric or some nonsense like that) and it would be at that moment that stuff could change massively but as we can see in the rules:

So you need to spend 15 minutes concentrating before regaining spells but those sorcerers have no reason to suspect that so they might never have the idea to do that and even if one suspected it could cast spells it would be unlikely to find that it have to concentrate nor the way to concentrate that is needed.

Once one person does this by accident and achieves any kind of fame (even youtube fame) as a result, you can guarantee that within a year pretty much everyone will have heard about the phenomenon and considered trying it.

[noob]

Once one person does this by accident and achieves any kind of fame (even youtube fame) as a result, you can guarantee that within a year pretty much everyone will have heard about the phenomenon and considered trying it.
The problem is that magic in dnd needs very specific stuff and so is unlikely to happen on accident.
Furthermore clerics and the like constantly speaks of miracles and there is diseases that are cured for unknown reasons and yet it is not as much known as you think it should become.
So I still think that it would take a lot of time after dnd magic rules are introduced for dnd magic to be discovered.

[Resileaf]

But the thing is that if dnd magic rules came in play the only thing that would happen for a really long while would be sightly increased amounts of miracles(and that is if there was not already gods in real life).
Then maybe later with significant amounts of luck there could finally be some sorcerers from clerical origins (their parents were touched by a cleric or some nonsense like that) and it would be at that moment that stuff could change massively but as we can see in the rules:

So you need to spend 15 minutes concentrating before regaining spells but those sorcerers have no reason to suspect that so they might never have the idea to do that and even if one suspected it could cast spells it would be unlikely to find that it have to concentrate nor the way to concentrate that is needed.

I think the most important part is the 8 hours of rest.

Who even sleeps for eight hours anymore these days?

Magic doesn't exist because the sorcerers are all busy playing videogames late at night. It's my headcanon and you can't make me think otherwise.

[DdarkED]

The problem is that it would be hard for a cleric to know how to cast spells nor to know it was magic and not god or the spaghetti monster or something like that which did a miracle.
So why would there be a cleric of magic that would find how to cast spells?
It is unlikely because you need both a huge faith and to know the weird dnd stuff to do and to be willing to do those(which would be unlikely because as far as most people know if there is magic the people the closest to getting it are scientists)

well if we are going with gods exists, they have agency and can find champions to be clerics ? if were going with belief in a concept that is ez, some people already believe in magic. some people believe in wizards. by the d&d magic clause that CAN(not will) be enough to empower them as clerics.

[Segev]

Recruitment, research, and possibly-draconian "control" measures. If it spontaneously occurred and people were suddenly Very Powerful who weren't before, we'd also see an upsurge in crime and terrorism, much the way superpowers would do it. This would be used to justify the draconian measures, but at the same time, there'd be recruitment all over, at every level. The local sheriff would happily accept a deputy who could cast a few spells. The FBI would actively recruit the best diviners and abjurers around, and take any ancillary skills they might have, though their security screenings would be tighter.

Lawmakers would run on fear-mongering totalitarian-like controls and on libertarian idealism, opposing each other from those sides and coming down everywhere on the spectrum in between.

Depending on how powerful the mages are to start out, they may well just force realpolitik. We've had many a discussion of what a single 20th level wizard could do in the modern real world, and most of them seem to agree that he could AT LEAST take over a small country if he really wanted to.

If they're starting at level 1, it would take a while for governments to view them as more than curiosities. By mid-level, though, when they're doing things that can make them uncontainable by SWAT-type units, things would start getting hairy in terms of legal, extralegal, and political tension over rights of magic-users and the threats they potentially pose.

[noob]

well if we are going with gods exists, they have agency and can find champions to be clerics ? if were going with belief in a concept that is ez, some people already believe in magic. some people believe in wizards. by the d&d magic clause that CAN(not will) be enough to empower them as clerics.

We do not need for the gods to exist for having miracles: in real life there is miracles or at least stuff perceived as such and that was not explained.(such as people miraculously curing from disease doctors believed incurable with their current knowledge of medicine after going on a pilgrimage to place X and so on but those are quite rare)
And we do not need gods for the clerics to assume the miracles are caused by gods.

[unseenmage]

Governments think whatever the first fullcaster to get to 9th level spells wants them to think.

Seriously, magic is the most OP possible thing. Its users quickly dominate everything or at least gtfo so they dont have to.

[DdarkED]

The problem is that magic in dnd needs very specific stuff and so is unlikely to happen on accident.
Furthermore clerics and the like constantly speaks of miracles and there is diseases that are cured for unknown reasons and yet it is not as much known as you think it should become.
So I still think that it would take a lot of time after dnd magic rules are introduced for dnd magic to be discovered.

i may be remembering incorrectly/blending fictions but i recall that sorcerers can spontaneously awaken to the hidden potential via stress/ect?

i am probably wrong but that sounds good in my head cannon at least.

[DdarkED]

We do not need for the gods to exist for having miracles: in real life there is miracles or at least stuff perceived as such and that was not explained.(such as people miraculously curing from disease doctors believed incurable with their current knowledge of medicine after going on a pilgrimage to place X and so on but those are quite rare)
And we do not need gods for the clerics to assume the miracles are caused by gods.


so i dont agree with any of that. just because someone views something as miraculous does not make it so.

i also covered the no gods part. the ONLY other way divine magic works in D&D belief in concept.

[noob]

so i dont agree with any of that. just because someone views something as miraculous does not make it so.

i also covered the no gods part. the ONLY other way divine magic works in D&D belief in concept.
exactly so if someone wave their hands and it throws a beam of magic that cures an otherwise uncurable disease people will still dismiss it in the same way they dismiss someone going on a pilgrimage and cures from a uncurable disease and also the clerics will not see a difference.

[DdarkED]

exactly so if someone wave their hands and it throws a beam of magic that cures an otherwise uncurable disease people will still dismiss it in the same way they dismiss someone going on a pilgrimage and cures from a uncurable disease.

so one of those things offers 0 evidence, one shows BEAMS OF LIGHT (aka some evidence) i think more people would believe the BEAMS OF LIGHT guy then then the guy who cant prove that his pilgrimage did anything guy. also BEAMS OF LIGHT guy can replicate the results, can the pilgrimage guy? nah they dont always work bud.

[noob]

so one of those things offers 0 evidence, one shows BEAMS OF LIGHT (aka some evidence) i think more people would believe the BEAMS OF LIGHT guy then the pilgrimage that does nuffing guy.

except that both are cured from an uncurable disease.
And beams of light are possible to do with currently known technology so it does just makes the one with beams of light look like someone doing a "magic" trick.
So basically since curing a disease does not do the trick so I do not think that adding light shows will help.

[DdarkED]

except that both are cured from an uncurable disease.
And beams of light are possible to do with currently known technology so it does just makes the one with beams of light look like someone doing a "magic" trick.
i was mid editing my post this is addressed there.

[noob]

i was mid editing my post this is addressed there.

the beam of light guy can not replicate it because he did not understood vancian spellcasting and is believing it was a miracle done by his god and the beams of light guy already had faith so he does not see a fundamental difference between the guy curing from a pilgrimage and the one he healed with a beam of light.

[DdarkED]

no, hes a D&D cleric. this is the premise. i dont care what he thinks. he has class features that let him BEAMS OF LIGHT even if he has to wait a day to recover.

[noob]

no, hes a D&D cleric. this is the premise. i dont care what he thinks. he has class features that let him BEAMS OF LIGHT people up to his spell slot limit

A dnd cleric must pray on the right hour for spells in the right way but in the dnd world they know how to do that because it is teached in dnd universe but a real life person which gets the casting potential of a dnd cleric have barely any chance of getting to understand how its spellcasting works.

[DdarkED]

A dnd cleric must pray on the right hour for spells in the right way but in the dnd world they know how to do that because it is teached in dnd universe but a real life person which gets the class features of a dnd cleric have barely any chance of getting to understand how its spellcasting works.

so your saying he did it once, how else could he do it the first time, but is incapable of doing it again? i think we are at a impasse friend. i think we are arguing past each other or a language barrier is involved.

[noob]

so your saying he did it once, how else could he do it the first time, but is incapable of doing it again? i think were at a impasse friend. i think we are arguing past each other or a language barrier is involved.

example: by some extreme chance at the right hour he prays for the whole hour for curing sick people in general then later by luck he sees a sick person and prays in front of that person to cure it in the right way and touch the person: the person is then cured but the cleric is unlikely to find which thing cured the person and might think it is the latest part + faith while it was in fact a combination of faith, the hour of prayer for curing sick people in general and the last six seconds of praying and touching combined.
Since he have nothing indicating him that the hour of prayer was linked to him curing he might suspect many other things related to his religion and so he might not cure people again.(for example in this day he also gave money to a hobo and also did 3 other rituals related to his religion and also now he might think he is a prophet or whatever and start going and teaching people his religion more and all of this reduce the odds of him finding out and if he tries again to pray for curing diseases in general at the wrong hour(he have no reason to suspect which hour is the right one) and tries to cure someone then sees it does not works he will probably remove the theory that the hour long prayer was related or he will believe he was foolish to except his god to work in a clockwork repeated fashion)

[Segev]

To be perfectly fair, even if God Himself showed up, barring His presence being mind-altering (for whatever reason), there would be those who would choose to disbelieve in Him. Whether to say, "Okay, sure, that's a powerful being, but it's not God because God doesn't exist, and I don't see why I should worship that thing," or even to say, "okay, maybe that is God of the Bible, but I still don't see why I should worship him. He's a jerk, for all these reasons that atheists already use to prove to themselves that God isn't what Christians and Jews claim him to be."

The same goes for any lower-case-g-gods. Heck, as a Christian, myself, I would probably say, "Huh, wow, yeah, that Bahamut guy is ridiculously powerful, and I would show him a lot of respect and maybe even deference, but no, I'm not going to worship him." There would be members of a number of religions - as well as atheists and agnostics - who would react similarly, refusing to worship Bahamut nor even acknowledge that he's a "god" (in the sense of "being to be worshipped as morally and metaphysically superior"). They might accept the terminology of "god" to mean "great and powerful being with a fundamental tie to some concepts/forces of nature," but that'd be as far as they go.

At least, before we get into "conversion by the sword" type stuff.

[DdarkED]

The SRD has a slightly different take on this. i suggest looking at this link.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm.

i take from that the cleric picks the time, and even IF he chooses to respect the churches particular time, that is up to him. and since you seem to think he isnt aware of a time. he just PICKS one.

[DdarkED]

To be perfectly fair, even if God Himself showed up, barring His presence being mind-altering (for whatever reason), there would be those who would choose to disbelieve in Him. Whether to say, "Okay, sure, that's a powerful being, but it's not God because God doesn't exist, and I don't see why I should worship that thing," or even to say, "okay, maybe that is God of the Bible, but I still don't see why I should worship him. He's a jerk, for all these reasons that atheists already use to prove to themselves that God isn't what Christians and Jews claim him to be."

The same goes for any lower-case-g-gods. Heck, as a Christian, myself, I would probably say, "Huh, wow, yeah, that Bahamut guy is ridiculously powerful, and I would show him a lot of respect and maybe even deference, but no, I'm not going to worship him." There would be members of a number of religions - as well as atheists and agnostics - who would react similarly, refusing to worship Bahamut nor even acknowledge that he's a "god" (in the sense of "being to be worshipped as morally and metaphysically superior"). They might accept the terminology of "god" to mean "great and powerful being with a fundamental tie to some concepts/forces of nature," but that'd be as far as they go.

At least, before we get into "conversion by the sword" type stuff.

i understand, and i do not know if i care to sell it as God/god power, but i sure as hell would sell it as POWER. and i think more people would believe in showy repeatable power then by pilgrimages that work sometimes at best?

[AvatarVecna]

didnt pathfinder make it so that supernatural ancestry was not required? my pathfinder knowledge is low (mostly from the pathfinder kingmaker pc game) but on of the options was your family was wizards harry so now your a sorc. which i guess is still supernatural but different then what we normally consider 3.5 sorcs ancestry. at the very least eventually sorcs would be born from "wizarding" families.

I was under the impression the opposite was true: that magic heritage was an unnecessary explanation in 3.5 with a bit of mechanical support if you liked that idea, whereas Pathfinder made all sorcerers explicitly bloodline-based.

[DdarkED]

I was under the impression the opposite was true: that magic heritage was an unnecessary explanation in 3.5 with a bit of mechanical support if you liked that idea, whereas Pathfinder made all sorcerers explicitly bloodline-based.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline

this bloodline seems to be what i am referencing, and while it is still a bloodline i think it stands apart from the other bloodlines i saw, in that your lineage while magically adept, were still humans, elves, ect and not dragons, fiends, ect.

[Segev]

i understand, and i do not know if i care to sell it as God/god power, but i sure as hell would sell it as POWER. and i think more people would believe in showy repeatable power then by pilgrimages that work sometimes at best?

Oh, certainly. Anything repeatable on demand with verifiable results that require no faith in anything save the evidence of your own senses is going to be pretty persuasive to the fact that it works. Whether people accept your explanations for how will vary by person, but the more repeatable your techniques, especially by others you simply train to use them, the more it will be undenyable that there is power to achieve your results in your methods.

[Kish]

One way or another, I think, someone would catastrophically remake the world with Wishes sooner or later, and probably sooner.

[Ruethgar]

Nothing would actually change: due to the lack of supernatural creatures and how sorcerers needs supernatural ancestry there would be no sorcerers and wizards does not appears spontaneously(you need to start researching magic and the odds of finding how to do magic without watching some creature that does is low furthermore not knowing there is magic is an additional blockade).
The only risks for appearance of magic would be divine magic and even then it would be unlikely: clerics/priests/whatever usually does not pray for their god to grant them spells and furthermore even if some does it would not necessarily do the prayer right or have enough faith for getting the spell.
So what would happen is probably that miracles could be more likely if they did not already happen.
(and trust me: miracles are not enough for getting all the people to believe nor for convincing people magic is possible and that they should go to the physicians and try to replicate that)


But the thing is that if dnd magic rules came in play the only thing that would happen for a really long while would be sightly increased amounts of miracles(and that is if there was not already gods in real life).
Then maybe later with significant amounts of luck there could finally be some sorcerers from clerical origins (their parents were touched by a cleric or some nonsense like that) and it would be at that moment that stuff could change massively but as we can see in the rules:

So you need to spend 15 minutes concentrating before regaining spells but those sorcerers have no reason to suspect that so they might never have the idea to do that and even if one suspected it could cast spells it would be unlikely to find that it have to concentrate nor the way to concentrate that is needed.


The problem is that magic in dnd needs very specific stuff and so is unlikely to happen on accident.
Furthermore clerics and the like constantly speaks of miracles and there is diseases that are cured for unknown reasons and yet it is not as much known as you think it should become.
So I still think that it would take a lot of time after dnd magic rules are introduced for dnd magic to be discovered.

So, I generally agree to these things. However, if we have Magic/Psionic transparency for the original question, psionics is much, much more likely to be picked up accidentally. Especially consider how many children believe and try to practice magic as it is today and the various faiths that believe in it. It seems entirely probable that even if the vancian magic system weren't discovered, people trying to perform magic would awaken psionic ability. This would also open up psionic bloodlined sorcerers.

If we allow 3rd party sources, Quintessential Sorcerer goes more in depth and saying more explicitly that adolescent sorcerers can accidentally create magic effect, however because of the components required to purposefully cast magic, it would probably be viewed more as a dangerous mental stress condition and treated as such with possible added experimentation for weaponry.

So let's assume witches of Wicca, similar faiths, psychics, and children who believe in magic start to actually manifest powers. We need to know how powerful of effects they are able to manifest. If we go by the often generally accepted ruling that Earth humans are about E3, then we could be looking at up to 2nd level powers. Some of these might simply mesh with delusions or actual ability(not here to judge and apologize if I offend) that long time believers have. Some effects are quite clearly OMGWTF territory like Control Object, Call Weaponry, and Astral Construct but would more likely show up in kids who don't have predetermined limits set in their mind of what's possible in the world.

You also have ancestor worship and nature worship which could quite possibly lead to soulmelding.

As far as government reactions. In this fictional alternate USA, I'm not sure. With psionics and meldshaping developing in faith based communities, I can easily see the more evangelical among us fighting tooth and nail for magic as protected under religious freedom. I can also see that many faiths don't actively attempt to practice magic and might see minority faiths gaining this power as a threat and advocating for the criminalization of magic. This can also have terrible implications for the field of science. If magic effects are real and being reproduced in defiance to the known laws of physics and medicine, it puts scientists fighting even more of an uphill battle if faith communities are emboldened by proof of the divine and that their diety(ies) can save them from the various problems of the world. Government responses given any of those public shifts can vary widely. I feel it would probably be banned initially with a registry until it was studied, understood, and licensed with strict regulation. But there aren't very good ways to exactly enforce that, especially with the non-visual effects so I'm not sure how that would play out.

There is also the matter that was touched on briefly earlier that people who are well versed in D&D or PF will be able to recognize what these effects are from their parameters and I can see we gamers quite quickly becoming another major population of manifesters and meldshapers. This also brings up a rather amusing new job opportunity when governments figure it out, the Psionics Advisor. For all we D&D nerds who know the rules oh so well and could help devising methods to control, offer the possibilities of what our nations could be facing, or more deviously the extreme lengths of power to be had from abusing is as much as able. This also pulls in the potential for massive censorship campaigns to try and cull the knowledge of the mechanics from the world so only privileged persons or previous experts on D&D/PF could use the information against *insert country here.*

[Calthropstu]

Noting forum rules forbid discussing RL politics, but taking this as a fictionalized account of a world similar to ours except magic

A lot probably depends on how prevalent its appearence is. If it's just a small percentage of the population... that's a really different reaction than if every 10th person can now cast level 1 spells and every 1000th level 9 spells.

I really like the pragmatism shown in the Grrlpower webcomic. It's superheroes, not magic, but that's close enough for most purposes. Supers are a low percentage of the population. In it, the USA has a press release stating supers are regular citizens (e.g., nothing like a Mutant Registration Act) unless they use their powers illegally, but all the same laws apply. If you want to be a vigiliante, become a cop or join the (newly formed super branch of) the army.

And Trippy-verse stuff might start to apply, as food scarcity and travel potentially become non-issues due to Create/Purify Food and Drink and stuff like Teleportation Rings.

Probably there'll be a mix of reactions from "kill them all as monsters" to "let them be citizens" to "they are operatives of the state now".
Grrlpower does make the noteworthy comment that treating supers as citizens is a good way to keep them from trying to overthrow the 'normie' oppressors.

If 1 in every 1000 could cast 9th level spells, I can tell you exactly what the governments response would be. 7 million 9th level casters = world death. It's that simple. So the governments would die just like everyone else. Probably even be the first targets.

[Ruethgar]

There is also the slight matter that our planet is considered a dead magic zone by D&D. IIRC Elminster was only able to go home from Earth because plot armor, and special snowflake of Mystra.

Edit: With semi-official content on the table, we could get the "science" of Ravenloft which would bypass this. While it is supposed to be generated from Extraordinary sources, there are effects that straight up defy physics, like Create Water(since it retains the actual creation aspect as opposed to a transmutation like a vapor condenser), and there would be a significant period of adjustment as all of science would have to be rewritten to account for the other set of rules in play now.

There is also the matter of balance. The Earth is not Toril. We don't have countless fissures to the elemental planes to keep everything level. If we had Ravenloft Create Water traps it would be adding mass to the Earth, if they were widespread it would become a major problem. A way around that would be even less official and more sketchy readings with Create Element(Earth) for Stones of Annihilation. But if you are going that far, the planet is doomed the first time someone makes Black Sand outside a highly controlled environment.

[AvatarVecna]

These "magic IRL" threads tend to conclude that a well-built, well-played T1 caster 20 could take over/destroy/transmute/remake the world more or less however they please, and even the ones that limit cheese tend to have the caster having at least as much clout as the least imortant countries (whichever you might think those are). But that feels generally fair: a single well-built well-played caster is at least as relevant a world power as a small country.

There are 200 countries. What does adding 7000 9th-lvl spell capable casters to the mix mean, even if they're still just PO instead of TO like I'm assuming?

If we're being totally honest, it doesn't matter if these powers go to who you think they would, or if they're distributed randomly. For example: as of 2017, there wwre ~1000 people living in Vatican City. Do you think 9th lvl casting is going to A) the pope, or B) a random person living in Vatican City? The answer is actually C) it doesn't matter because the kind of person who lives in Vatican City would serve the will of the pope. Whether you think the pope should or shouldn't wield that kind of power is immaterial, because in the "1/10 can cast, 1/1000 cast 9ths" scenario...he does wield it.

You can play that random distribution game with amy group. Pick an organization you wouldn't trust with 1st lvl spells let alone 9ths, and look up how many active members they have.

The Girl Scouts have 2.5 million members, with 750k adult volunteers involved. Even if we assume children can't get magic at all, that's 750 9th lvl casters in the frickin' girl scouts.

[noob]

These "magic IRL" threads tend to conclude that a well-built, well-played T1 caster 20 could take over/destroy/transmute/remake the world more or less however they please, and even the ones that limit cheese tend to have the caster having at least as much clout as the least imortant countries (whichever you might think those are). But that feels generally fair: a single well-built well-played caster is at least as relevant a world power as a small country.

There are 200 countries. What does adding 7000 9th-lvl spell capable casters to the mix mean, even if they're still just PO instead of TO like I'm assuming?

If we're being totally honest, it doesn't matter if these powers go to who you think they would, or if they're distributed randomly. For example: as of 2017, there wwre ~1000 people living in Vatican City. Do you think 9th lvl casting is going to A) the pope, or B) a random person living in Vatican City? The answer is actually C) it doesn't matter because the kind of person who lives in Vatican City would serve the will of the pope. Whether you think the pope should or shouldn't wield that kind of power is immaterial, because in the "1/10 can cast, 1/1000 cast 9ths" scenario...he does wield it.

You can play that random distribution game with amy group. Pick an organization you wouldn't trust with 1st lvl spells let alone 9ths, and look up how many active members they have.

The Girl Scouts have 2.5 million members, with 750k adult volunteers involved. Even if we assume children can't get magic at all, that's 750 9th lvl casters in the frickin' girl scouts.

Furthermore if someone actually gets its casting from their faith in their gods and gain ninth level spells suddenly it makes the recipe for instant fanatics.
(If it is perceived as coming from self it instead makes an instant egocentric megalomaniac)

[JNAProductions]

The Girl Scouts have 2.5 million members, with 750k adult volunteers involved. Even if we assume children can't get magic at all, that's 750 9th lvl casters in the frickin' girl scouts.

Does that mean the cookie prices go up?

Because if not, I'm okay with that. :P

[Calthropstu]

Furthermore if someone actually gets its casting from their faith in their gods and gain ninth level spells suddenly it makes the recipe for instant fanatics.
(If it is perceived as coming from self it instead makes an instant egocentric megalomaniac)

All hail girl scout troop leader susie, ruler supreme of all girl scouts. She has decreed that the third thursday of the month shall be cake baking day. *1 9th spell level slot use later* News reporter: This just in, everyone on earth starts baking a cake because girl scout troop leader said so. However, other 9th level spell casters took offense to baking cakes, and assaulted the girl scout headquarters in an effort to eliminate Susie. Other leading girl scout spell casters retaliated turning the girl scouts into giant man eating monsters. I'd tell you all to stay indoors, but the houses are being turned into animated objects. In short: we're all doomed. This has been April Oneal, channel 6 news.

[noob]

All hail girl scout troop leader susie, ruler supreme of all girl scouts. She has decreed that the third thursday of the month shall be cake baking day. *1 9th spell level slot use later* News reporter: This just in, everyone on earth starts baking a cake because girl scout troop leader said so. However, other 9th level spell casters took offense to baking cakes, and assaulted the girl scout headquarters in an effort to eliminate Susie. Other leading girl scout spell casters retaliated turning the girl scouts into giant man eating monsters. I'd tell you all to stay indoors, but the houses are being turned into animated objects. In short: we're all doomed. This has been April Oneal, channel 6 news.

also the planet is an intelligent animated object with immense reach and unlimited opportunity attacks and so much bab it can put enough points in power attack to kill any human that does actions that triggers attacks of opportunity.(blame the casters again)

[Arcanist]

Furthermore if someone actually gets its casting from their faith in their gods and gain ninth level spells suddenly it makes the recipe for instant fanatics.
(If it is perceived as coming from self it instead makes an instant egocentric megalomaniac)

I could very well see governments and organizations, in some vein attempt to control this outbreak, centralize worship to individuals and concepts that they can "control". Spellcasters would either be made to play ball, or completely steamroll anyone trying to make them play pall. All in all however? There is no way in hell or heaven (since those would be objectively real places now) that this would have a positive outcome for anyone else, but the most prepared person.

Arguably though? Psionicists (and POSSIBLY Clerics depending on what you define a "Cleric" as) would reign supreme. No spellbook, no inherent spellcasting source, no need to be kissed by a divine elephant-unicorn. Just 100% will power.


... In short the world becomes Shadowrun or maybe Ebberron if this fictional world is lucky. But in truth it may end up being a combination of Darksun and shadowrun combined. A truly terrible place. 2% chance it ends up being like Faerun in the long run. Maybe less.

I believe there is no truly positive outcome in this scenario besides mutually assured destruction, emphasis on the assured aspect.

Even assuming only all of the "Good" people get these powers, we know what happens when "Good" people get power, let alone power absolute. That said? I imagine it would essentially be very similar to the Tippyverse, except after the first few millennia of continuous conflict, when all of the surviving StP Erudites and Clerics have survived, they quarter themselves off away from one another in massive post scarcity enclaves that are either in demiplanes on in massive domed plants (or pyramid like. Depends which takes less castings of Stone Shape) away from one another. These surviving spellcasting overlords that rule away from the general populous, outlaw any means by which the populous COULD conceivably learn or gain spellcasting or psionics so reading and writing might be banned entirely. People exhibiting any inherent spellcasting abilities have grafted (or if they want to be sleekly designed tattoos) spell traps of Inflict minor wounds once every hour, and cure minor wounds once every hour to prevent them from regaining spell slots; This is the best case scenario for them. The worst would be them being taken to some type of death camps where they would be systematically exterminated as potential threats to the regime.

You would never have to work a day in your life, you would never go hungry, or fear for the elements, or anything else as long as you do not get in the way of your Overlord. Again, this is the most positive outcome. The most likely however is that they would simply turn you and your entire population into wights to serve them and only them (again, whichever is the most convenient).


And that is unfortunately how it would remain, forever. No one would ever be allowed to gain XP, or learn spellcasting, or psionics, and if you are lucky, you would have died a quick and painless death rather than live in such an abysmal world. I understand that this is not the Tippyverse mind you. The Tippyverse is a work of fantasy, and I tried to keep this as close to reality as possible. The sad reality of it is that no one should have access to even 1st level spells, let alone 9th level spells and the world would be in an objectively better place without throwing magic into the mix.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/126/314/3cd8a33a.png?1306264975
"And in the waning twilight of the Great War, Scout Mistress Suzie poured full her glass of milk, and dunk her cookies into them in a most satisfied manner, for she knew the cup was forged from the skull of her greatest enemies"

[ericgrau]

So if magic according to dnd and PF were suddenly real and usable by people here on Earth, that is to say anyone could use it...how would governments all across the world react? Contain it, experiment or just plain kill off anyone who wants to use magic?

Suddenly real? A combination of incompetence and panic, followed by backlash against the inadequate response. I'm not insulting (or making any form of critique) any real world government, but that's a lot to take on all at once for a system that's not prepared for it. At first those who wanted to use magic would be able to do so pretty freely, for better or worse. The overwhelmed society might detain or more peacefully interact with a few, but by in large they wouldn't know what to do. Various methods of enforcement would handle it their own way, some lawfully, some unlawfully. Then we reach general outcry, emergency meetings, then gradually a more rational response.

[Kalkra]

It also kinda depends on how it's presented. I mean, if people are shooting fireballs, that's clearly magic. If people are mainly using buff spells, it looks like superheroes, and I can't help but feel that the public would react very differently to superheroes than to magic. I mean, there are a ton of movies and comics and whatnot that lay out very clearly all the main positions people can take with regards to superheroes, and I think they're ingrained in society enough that people would naturally fall into one of those categories. Magic on the other hand, it's weird. I mean, it's more of a skill than a characteristic. You could learn it.

Also, if crafting is a thing, there's no way any government is suppressing that. Way too much demand for even CL 1 Wondrous Items. Unless the universe is the kinda DM who hates custom magic items. But still, know any criminals who would want a Hat of Disguise?

And all of that is ignoring the whole xp thing. I think that eventually magic users would become the elites of society, and things like arena fights and traveling to other planes of existence would be commonplace for them. Kinda like that light novel whose name I can't remember, but it doesn't matter, because there's a whole genre just like it.

[Vizzerdrix]

Simple answer- It wouldn't matter. I'd turn everyone into ferrets. No with divine or psionics, but with sorc casting. Nothing in the description says anything other then that their special blood is anything other than speculation.


So poof! Everyone is ferrets, and I devote the rest of my life making resetting traps to give every single long kitten whatever they desire. So the question on how government would react? They would play in some crinkle tubes, eat some chicken and banana treats, then take naps in little hammocks.