Making NPC's and Bosses

[deljzc]

I'm curious how other DM's make them. There are so many intricacies with the character classes in 5e, that if I go down the path of making a 5th level Fighter as a boss it takes me an hour or more just to create the NPC character with all the choices they have open to them.

Do you guys cut corners anywhere on this? Give them less abilities but still call them a "level 5 fighter"?

Its just tedious going down the rabbit hole of sub-classes, action choices, spell choices, etc. Especially when the "boss fight" might be a group of bad guys (a fighter, wizard, etc. all different levels).

How do the new modules out today deal with this? Are their bad guys detailed down to the nth degree when called a "fighter" or "wizard"? In the old days it wasn't this hard.

[JackPhoenix]

Create (or modify) an NPC according to DMG rules. None of my NPCs is a Fighter or a Wizard, even if I give them some fighter-y or wizard-y abilities. Character classes are for PCs.

And be glad you haven't played 3e where every creature was made according to PC rules (or PC-transparent rules). It was much, MUCH worse than making NPCs with PC rules in 5e.

[Malifice]

I use the NPCs provided in the books, with slight modifications as needed.

I give the Hobgoblin captains Leadership trait to a Champion for example if I want a 'Boss' Fighter type.

Takes literally a minute or so to do.

Alternatively I just re-skin monstets in the Book, or alter ones in there.

I want a 'War Ogre'? I just slap Half Plate on an Ogre, double its HD and HP, and slap the Multiattack trait on it. I bump its CR up to 3.

Why DMs spend hours statting up NPCs as if they're PCs (replete with dozens of abilities they'll never use) is beyond me.

[Unoriginal]

I'm curious how other DM's make them. There are so many intricacies with the character classes in 5e, that if I go down the path of making a 5th level Fighter as a boss it takes me an hour or more just to create the NPC character with all the choices they have open to them.

Do you guys cut corners anywhere on this? Give them less abilities but still call them a "level 5 fighter"?

Its just tedious going down the rabbit hole of sub-classes, action choices, spell choices, etc. Especially when the "boss fight" might be a group of bad guys (a fighter, wizard, etc. all different levels).

How do the new modules out today deal with this? Are their bad guys detailed down to the nth degree when called a "fighter" or "wizard"? In the old days it wasn't this hard.


5e doesn't assume you have to create NPCs using PC-creation rules. You can do it, but as you saw it's overly tedious and often ill-fitting, and not the first recommended method.

Like JackPhoenix said, creating or modifying NPC statblocks using the DMG rules work well. It's not because the Assassin NPC has sneak attack that they're a PC Rogue, and it's not because the Mage NPC has wizard spellcasting that they're a PC Wizard.

Also, going by class levels for enemies isn't great to estimate how strong they are. You'd have to re-do the calculations anyway.

[Catullus64]

Just do what I do; have a stockpile of character stat blocks for every class with every subclass for a range of levels suitable to your preferred level range.

[Unoriginal]

Also, by design, the PC classes generally have HPs way too low and too much damage output to be good opponents as NPCs.

[deljzc]

Thanks for all the good words of advice.

What about spell casters? How do pre-written modules or other DM's keep the damage output correct for NPC (enemy) spell casters?

It certainly seems prudent and easy to dumb down a fighter into an NPC. Give it only one Combat Superiority move (instead of three or more), use a limited second wind-type ability, limit skills and languages. Problem solved.

How do you make an NPC warlock or wizard and eliminate all the subclasses? Is that good/bad DM'ing? Is that too much of a shortcut?

[KorvinStarmast]

How I made a small boss for the local group of elemental Cultists
He is a Cult Fanatic with a slight twist from the NPC stat block in the MM. I decided to make his Cha higher -- he's a leader and manipulator of his cult, and he has to deal with the local people (who may encounter his cult).
He's always recruiting! (combo of deception and persuasion)

With that in mind, I made him a bit tougher by deciding that he's a bit more of a Warlock than a Cleric, so his casting stat is Charisma.

I have his deputy running as a standard Cult fanatic with a Wisdom casting stat. Over a dozen cultists, garden variety straight out of the box. Introducing Faccu Tinnal
S 9 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 13 W 14 Ch 16
Cantrips: Thaumaturgy; Sacred Flame; Light
Level 1: Command; Inflict Wounds; Shield of Faith; Prot from Evil/Good <- I added this since they work with small elementals a lot
Level 2: Hold Person; Spiritual Weapon
The rest as typical cult fanatic.
Worked out fine.

There are some warlock NPC's in Volo's Guide to Monsters

[Frozenstep]

I've designed a few bosses based on character classes. The first thing I do is give them a stats and saving throws that feel like they make sense. I don't calculate how much health a character of that level should have, I just give them a value that's usually far beyond what they should have, but then avoid giving them many bonuses to damage that a player would have. I just give an AC value that makes enough sense and works for the challenge level I want.

I don't bother mapping out proficiencies with weapons/armor or even non-combat skills, even if the class they're emulating has them as a feature. I only take very notable things, like uncanny dodges or action surges. That's basically as far as I look to character classes for statting out npc's. For spellcasters, I don't choose and write down every spell that a normal caster of their level could have picked, I ignore utility based ones unless I have an idea for how it can be used to build a lair or trap that players might encounter.

You must remember that in combat, your enemies only have so many turns. No matter how many options you give them, they'll only be able to employ a few of them before the fight is won one way or another. Figure out the major strategy that the boss will try to employ, maybe a back-up plan. For example, I had a swashbuckler/trickster cleric boss. He first used invoke duplicity before the party saw him and tried to poke at the party with spiritual weapon/guiding bolt, but when his real body got discovered, he switched to spirit guardians/melee combat using his sneak attack.

Keep an eye on how your boss compares to enemies on a similar CR as you are targeting. Even if a PC that has evasion because they're a rogue should have 4d6 sneak attack damage, I nerfed it anyway because high damage bosses lead to swingy fights. Once you have your inspiration of what kind of cool abilities your boss gets from being x class, you can break rules as you see fit to make for a better fight.

[Yunru]

I work out what I want my boss's first form to be like, then it's final form, then the intermittent forms.

For instance, I had a plate wearing vampire that turned into an unarmoured berserker (not the barbarian subclass).
So I gave Mr. Plate some Fighter features (fighting style, second wind), and Mr. Rage some Barbarian features (reckless attack, unarmoured defence).

[Bloodcloud]

Making NPC's using PC rule is a remant of 3e thinking.

It is very bad thinking. Some pretend it helps create a consistent world and yadyada bleh. It is BAD. Useless, no good. Please help this trope die a thousand death.

Mordenkainen (or volo) has some good example actually, with npc conjurer/necromancer/warlock etc. It's a good example of taking some clear iconic ability of a PC and integrating it in a simplified npc framework.

Otherwise, I recommend looking for an existing monster in terms of "feel", and customize from there. Maybe add lair actions and legendary action to bolster it.

[Yunru]

Making NPC's using PC rule is a remant of 3e thinking.

It is very bad thinking. Some pretend it helps create a consistent world and yadyada bleh. It is BAD. Useless, no good. Please help this trope die a thousand death.
It's good in reverse though. Reusing abilities that your party liked for custom subclasses or feats.

[Unoriginal]

Thanks for all the good words of advice.

What about spell casters? How do pre-written modules or other DM's keep the damage output correct for NPC (enemy) spell casters?

It certainly seems prudent and easy to dumb down a fighter into an NPC. Give it only one Combat Superiority move (instead of three or more), use a limited second wind-type ability, limit skills and languages. Problem solved.

How do you make an NPC warlock or wizard and eliminate all the subclasses? Is that good/bad DM'ing? Is that too much of a shortcut?

I aplogize, but I don't think you're getting what people are getting at.

People (or at least most of them) are not suggesting "dumbing down a fighter into a NPC" or "taking shortcut" by taking a PC class and removing all the subclass abilities and other features.

For the most part, we are suggesting using NPC statblocks, or creating/modifying NPC statblocks using the DMG guidelines.

It's not "dumb down a PC class", it's "take a NPC and add/tweak the parts you want."

What do you mean by "keep[ing] the damage output correct", also?

[Wuzza]

I'm quite surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but imo by far the easiest way is to take an existing, appropriately CR'd creature, and modify it for your needs.

Need a hard as nails fighter? Use an Earth Elemental stats.
A low level magic user? Orc Eye of Gruumsh.

You can easily modify these for what ever you need. Change the Orcs spells, tweak the Elementals special attack. Unless you go mental with the changes, then the XP and CR should be around the same as the starting creature.

[Unoriginal]

I'm quite surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but imo by far the easiest way is to take an existing, appropriately CR'd creature, and modify it for your needs.

People have suggested that already, several times.



Need a hard as nails fighter? Use an Earth Elemental stats.

Or a Champion NPC statblock. Or a Veteran. Or...



A low level magic user? Orc Eye of Gruumsh.

Or an Acolyte, or Apprentice Wizard, or Bard, or...

[Wuzza]

People have suggested that already, several times.

Fair enough, maybe I should read the replies a bit more closely. (especially when I've had a post work drink. :smalltongue: ) Also forgot about the class stat blocks at the end of the MM.....

[PhoenixPhyre]

Create (or modify) an NPC according to DMG rules. None of my NPCs is a Fighter or a Wizard, even if I give them some fighter-y or wizard-y abilities. Character classes are for PCs.

And be glad you haven't played 3e where every creature was made according to PC rules (or PC-transparent rules). It was much, MUCH worse than making NPCs with PC rules in 5e.

This. Very much this.

Given that you'll have to recalculate CR anyway if you do a PC build (since it's not 1:1 or even linear and it's highly build dependent) and PC builds have lots of extra moving parts that an NPC won't ever get to use, just use the DMG rules straight up.

I tend to cherry-pick features that make sense for that particular NPC, even if it's not "allowed" for a PC. Like switching spell lists or whatever.

But mainly I use stock MM/Volos/MToF NPCs with minor modifications (especially cosmetic modifications).

[sithlordnergal]

I'm curious how other DM's make them. There are so many intricacies with the character classes in 5e, that if I go down the path of making a 5th level Fighter as a boss it takes me an hour or more just to create the NPC character with all the choices they have open to them.

Do you guys cut corners anywhere on this? Give them less abilities but still call them a "level 5 fighter"?

Its just tedious going down the rabbit hole of sub-classes, action choices, spell choices, etc. Especially when the "boss fight" might be a group of bad guys (a fighter, wizard, etc. all different levels).

How do the new modules out today deal with this? Are their bad guys detailed down to the nth degree when called a "fighter" or "wizard"? In the old days it wasn't this hard.

So, it really depends. If its a minor villain, like say the chief of some orc tribe, I'll snag the standard orc chieftain, toss in a few extra things and call it a day. Or I'll look through Volo's and Mordenkainen's to see if there are any interesting monsters that can play the part.

If its a major villain, like the BBG or even the BBG's right hand man, I will customize them far more. Heck, I tend to make villains like that PC classes as my base, then modify them to suit my needs, either granting or removing certain abilities. If my players are facing off against an evil Arch-Moon Druid, they get to deal with a level 20 Moon Druid, with all the difficulties that presents. If my players are facing a some Warlord hell bent on taking over the word, they'll be facing a Conquest Paladin with some Bard and Battlemaster Fighter abilities sprinkled on top for flavor.

That said, and I cannot emphasize this enough, these types of villains ARE NOT ONE OFFS. When I make these villains, I have them last. I have them a presence throughout the entire game. Even if the players do not directly face them, they hear about them and see the effects they have on the world. And if the party does run into them early, which sometimes they do, I use the encounter to beat but not kill. I find giving the players a loss only helps to hone their desire to kill/stop that NPC, and it helps show how far the players have come when they eventually do kill this big bad.

[Man_Over_Game]

I do things a little differently.

First, determine if this is a long-term or a short-term boss. There are a lot of differences between the two.

For a Short Term boss, figure out what kind of chassis we're dealing with. Does he cast magic, does he use swarms, is he heavily armored, etc. Try to make whatever these benefits are to be slightly more than the team is comfortable dealing with. Take your party's highest to-hit, and have the boss's AC be that +1 as a base (doing more for a tanky boss or less for a squishy one).

Make sure it has enough HP to take a hit. Either through THP, damage resistance, or magical potions it consumes, it should be able to take about 3x as much damage as a PC.

Tack on some Legendary Actions that aren't too powerful to compensate for the Action Economy, and enough unique abilities to force the players to adapt, and you're done!

It's important to have 1-2 major weaknesses with each Short-Term Boss, whether that be their reliance on Shield, relying on numbers, or having a low Wisdom saving throw. There needs to be something that the players can exploit, and it should fit within the narrative for the boss.



Long-Term bosses are very similar at the final fight, but they need to have abilities that only come online during the epic battle. Maybe they had a transformation that permanently disfigures them, or they sacrifice a part of themselves for more power, but for some reason or another, the boss is stronger at the last fight than he is in the first one. Weaknesses should still be available, but they should be less impactful than on a Short-Term boss, and they should be harder to exploit. Sometimes, the weakness may require a special item or NPC the players gathered before the fight.

An alternative approach to a Long-Term boss gaining short-term power for a final fight, is having the boss gather power at the same time players are. When the players are leveling up and gathering magical items, the boss is also learning forbidden magic and gathering followers and relics.

[Bloodcloud]

It's good in reverse though. Reusing abilities that your party liked for custom subclasses or feats.

Oh, both character feature and monster feature are great parts to be scavenged and reused on watever homebrew stuff you want to come up with. Scavenging both side for part is GREAT.

But then put those part in the correct framework. Jury-rigging a PC framework for an NPC? Nevermore.

I contradict many people here: No matter how long term your boss his, he is an npc and should be using an NPC stat block. Using a character built as a regular character is, IMO, a terrible idea. 4e was damn right about that at least, and I'm glad 5e rules kept that aspect of the game intact. NPC are not character, they serve another purpose, they should be built for that purpose. Otherwise, you are bringin back one of the most painful aspect of 3e.

[stoutstien]

A quick and dirty way to make a interesting boss is to just take to NPCs and RAM them together.
So they have two hours pools, two actions a round so on.
First thing this does is gate hp to keep them from being burst down in first round and the players can have a sense of progression in the fight when the first pool is wiped out and they boss is now having one action a round because he's injured.

[deljzc]

So what I'm hearing (to paraphrase) is make my Human NPC enemies in the format of the Monster Manual NPC's in the back of the book.

I can make whatever I want (like the Assassin) and mix in some character class actions, special skills, reactions, etc., but you guys don't list or keep more information than what is there. Makes it a bit easier to start there and become more complex than start with a PC and make it more simple.

I honestly think some of you took me way to literal (and defensive) about this. I think I was getting to the same conclusion/end game by starting down a PC build and eliminating some of the specific subclass abilities, taking away a language or two, taking away a skill or two, etc., but I understand where you guys are coming from.

And really, this was about time saving as I build/modify a dungeon. I might have been getting bogged down a bit (but that's how you learn).

[PhoenixPhyre]

So what I'm hearing (to paraphrase) is make my Human NPC enemies in the format of the Monster Manual NPC's in the back of the book.

I can make whatever I want (like the Assassin) and mix in some character class actions, special skills, reactions, etc., but you guys don't list or keep more information than what is there. Makes it a bit easier to start there and become more complex than start with a PC and make it more simple.

I honestly think some of you took me way to literal (and defensive) about this. I think I was getting to the same conclusion/end game by starting down a PC build and eliminating some of the specific subclass abilities, taking away a language or two, taking away a skill or two, etc., but I understand where you guys are coming from.

And really, this was about time saving as I build/modify a dungeon. I might have been getting bogged down a bit (but that's how you learn).

One other note is that taking an NPC block and adding fun features doesn't end up the same as taking a PC block and cutting down abilities. NPCs tend to have higher HP than PCs (for equivalent CRs) and deal way less burst damage. PCs are glass cannons by comparison, on purpose. The core chassis is slightly different, but those effects are meaningful

[deljzc]

One other note is that taking an NPC block and adding fun features doesn't end up the same as taking a PC block and cutting down abilities. NPCs tend to have higher HP than PCs (for equivalent CRs) and deal way less burst damage. PCs are glass cannons by comparison, on purpose. The core chassis is slightly different, but those effects are meaningful

Can you give examples of how burst damage is different (or how you would make them different).

Wouldn't spell-casters be pretty similar in damage output using the same spells? Are there certain abilities at higher levels in PC's that you DON'T ever use on an NPC?

And as I'm getting into 5e more, I sort of think HP for PC's is pretty high as compared to older versions. They start you out with max roll. The dice used are much greater than 1st/2nd addition.

[Unoriginal]

Wouldn't spell-casters be pretty similar in damage output using the same spells?

If you only look at the spell by itself, yes, but the NPC proficiency bonus doesn't scale the same way as the PC one, so in practice the save DC/mod to attack of those spells is likely to be different.



And as I'm getting into 5e more, I sort of think HP for PC's is pretty high as compared to older versions. They start you out with max roll. The dice used are much greater than 1st/2nd addition.

Compared to older editions, sure, but the monsters' HPs and the damages got scaled up too, so it's not an indicator of the PCs' HPs being "pretty high" in actual play.

[Vogie]

Can you give examples of how burst damage is different (or how you would make them different).

Wouldn't spell-casters be pretty similar in damage output using the same spells? Are there certain abilities at higher levels in PC's that you DON'T ever use on an NPC?

And as I'm getting into 5e more, I sort of think HP for PC's is pretty high as compared to older versions. They start you out with max roll. The dice used are much greater than 1st/2nd addition.

The damage is similar, but the balance is off.
If a PC wizard uses the Shield spell, for example, they're usually blocking one, maybe 2 hits. If an NPC uses Shield, that is potentially rebuffing the entire party's attacks.
If a PC wizard uses something like Burning Hands on NPCs, especially bosses, they take the same amount of damage as the other way around. However, the bosses will have much more hit points, so the damage taken by the NPC will be a lower percentage of their hit points. Failing the throw on a 1st level Burning hands will really hurt a CR 1 NPC, but a 1st level PC failing the save of an NPC's first level Burning hands likely reduces them to 0.

The HP for PCs is higher than older systems, and the HP of NPCs is even higher, due to the theory of "bounded accuracy". The theory is that hitting is fun, and missing is not fun, thus both the to-hit and damage mechanics are "bounded" into an "Accurate" range. In previous editions, you'd have characters that were incredibly hard to hit, and quite weak, which threw a lot of randomness and spontaneous not-fun that could occur.


Oh, both character feature and monster feature are great parts to be scavenged and reused on watever homebrew stuff you want to come up with. Scavenging both side for part is GREAT.

What I do is increase the power of my hostile NPCs by having them actively use the objects I've selected or created for the players to loot off of them.