What archetypes are subpar in 5e that you'd want to play?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm constantly adapting my Prestige Options homebrew with new options, and I want to know what you guys have thought about that aren't quite feasible in the current 5e ruleset.

Things like:


Strength-based Monk.
A Cleric who talks to people.
A Sorcerer who's bad at talking to others.
A Caster who channels energy from their own life force.



Or anything else that you've wanted to try but couldn't due to worrying about suboptimal stats.

Edit: I've ran a bit dry on ideas. Here's a brief overview of all of the options, and let me know if you see something that's not on here:



Barbarian-Dexterity (Berserker)
Bard-Intelligence (Lore)
Cleric-Charisma (All), Intelligence (Arcana, Knowledge)
Druid-Charisma (Shephard)
Fighter-Wisdom (Arcane Seeker)
Monk-Strength (Open Hand), Intelligence (Four Elements, Sun Soul, Shadow)
Paladin-Intelligence (Conquest), Wisdom (Ancients)
Ranger-Intelligence (Horizon Walker, Monster Slayer)
Sorcerer-Wisdom (All)
Warlock-Wisdom (Archfey, Hexblade), Intelligence (Great Old One), Constitution (Undying)
Wizard-Charisma (Enchantment), Wisdom (Divination)

[MThurston]

Im not sure how to answer this. I see people play everything you just listed.

[NaughtyTiger]

For once I am going to agree with MThurston,

I played a 4e monk and a original beastmaster...
My cleric/monk has decent Persausion/Performance, cuz he's a preacher
Mountain dwarf rogue with 10 Dex.
Goblin giant-soul sorceror who was nearly feral and hated everyone taller than him.

they play fine and are fun.

[GlenSmash!]

A warrior that's equally good with a longsword and longbow.

[Spiritchaser]

I'm constantly adapting my Prestige Options homebrew with new options, and I want to know what you guys have thought about that aren't quite feasible in the current 5e ruleset.

Things like:


Strength-based Monk.
A Cleric who talks to people.
A Sorcerer who's bad at talking to others.
A Caster who channels energy from their own life force.



Or anything else that you've wanted to try but couldn't due to worrying about suboptimal stats.


I’d have a learned and studious paladin.

[Jophiel]

Dex Barbarian. I have the concept for it, just don't want to saddle a group with the character.

[Man_Over_Game]

Im not sure how to answer this. I see people play everything you just listed.

Take the Sorcerer example. Sorcerers use Charisma, an attribute that is used for your interactions with people. However, many people play Sorcerers and choose not to interact with others for one reason or another, but still want to play the Sorcerer class. As a result, what they want to do with the character and the mechanics of the character don't mesh all too well.

Similarly, Clerics are generally high health, high defense melee spellcasters. Between investing in Constitution, Strength/Dexterity, and Wisdom, there's not a lot of room for Charisma. An optimized Cleric is terrible at talking to people, which can clash against many people's narrative for a Cleric they want to play.

Obviously, a Cleric with poor Charisma can choose to talk to people, and a Sorcerer with high Charisma can choose not to, but those are instances of the narrative being opposite of the mechanics of a character. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for builds that have features that contradict one another.

[Man_Over_Game]

I’d have a learned and studious paladin.


Dex Barbarian. I have the concept for it, just don't want to saddle a group with the character.

These are rather interesting. I'm having a hard time imagining how these fit.

For example, what's the difference between Spiritchaser's concept of a Paladin that being a Cleric/Fighter wouldn't solve?

When Jophiel imagines their Dexterity-based Barbarian, what's the concept that you're driving for? Why does Dexterity work as a narrative choice when Strength doesn't?

[McSkrag]

Besides Eldritch Knights, I don't see a lot of fighter archetypes that are compelling to take from 1-20.

So maybe a fighter that specializes in a specific weapon or fighting style that gets better in tiers 3 and 4?

[Ganryu]

Circle of Spores Druid!

Unearthed Arcana version was fun, but once they introduced it as Golgari, they heavily nerfed it!

[Man_Over_Game]

Besides Eldritch Knights, I don't see a lot of fighter archetypes that are compelling to take from 1-20.

So maybe a fighter that specializes in a specific weapon or fighting style that gets better in tiers 3 and 4?

It's a shame that the Weapon Master feat already took the name. It's also a shame that the feat isn't ever used and doesn't work with Fighters.

[Jophiel]

When Jophiel imagines their Dexterity-based Barbarian, what's the concept that you're driving for? Why does Dexterity work when Strength doesn't?
It was an urban orphan/slave/urchin type thing where the character learned to either avoid beatings or to shut off the pain (reflected in the damage resistance mechanics) until they eventually snapped and stabbed their captor(s) to death. Later they pull from those memories to become a stabby death machine. While I could just use strength, my mental concept is someone relatively frail from undernourishment, not someone actually hulking out. Totem stuff would be refluffed.

I realize that I could use the same story for a Dex fighter or rogue or some other stabby character, it was the actual mechanics of going into a frenzy and soaking the damage that made the concept bubble up.

[Genoin]

I think the problem with your Dex based Barbarian concept mechanically, is there is really no way to justify Rage working with Dexterity. Characters that use Dex to attack are about hitting weak points, not hitting hard. Thematically, going into a frenzy wouldn't help that.

Plus, the things like Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense, and Feral Instinct, which normally function to allow a Barbarian to have a lower Dex all gain significant power if you allow Barbarians to be Dex based.

[Spiritchaser]

To the OP: It’s worth noting that I really like the way you approach the prestige class option in general and I’d like to see something like that exist, at least at the UA level.

[stoutstien]

It was an urban orphan/slave/urchin type thing where the character learned to either avoid beatings or to shut off the pain (reflected in the damage resistance mechanics) until they eventually snapped and stabbed their captor(s) to death. Later they pull from those memories to become a stabby death machine. While I could just use strength, my mental concept is someone relatively frail from undernourishment, not someone actually hulking out. Totem stuff would be refluffed.

I realize that I could use the same story for a Dex fighter or rogue or some other stabby character, it was the actual mechanics of going into a frenzy and soaking the damage that made the concept bubble up.
Agreed a DEX based barbarian should at least be an option for 1 sub class. At the same time I don't want to overshadow the rest of them. Maybe slower rage damage progress but allow it to apply to ranged attacks

[Spiritchaser]

I think the problem with your Dex based Barbarian concept mechanically, is there is really no way to justify Rage working with Dexterity. Characters that use Dex to attack are about hitting weak points, not hitting hard. Thematically, going into a frenzy wouldn't help that.

Hey it’s D & D, we can fluff nearly anything!

Imagine it radically improving reaction time.

“The taste of blood screems in your mouth, and your veins feel like they’re made of ice and fire. Your mind itself runs at an impossible pace. Everyone around you seems slow while you move easily where you will”

[Genoin]

Agreed a DEX based barbarian should at least be an option for 1 sub class. At the same time I don't want to overshadow the rest of them. Maybe slower rage damage progress but allow it to apply to ranged attacks

Finding some way to make rage work may be possible, but Reckless Attack is blatantly opposite thematically from Dex based attacks.

[MThurston]

Take the Sorcerer example. Sorcerers use Charisma, an attribute that is used for your interactions with people. However, many people play Sorcerers and choose not to interact with others for one reason or another, but still want to play the Sorcerer class. As a result, what they want to do with the character and the mechanics of the character don't mesh all too well.

Similarly, Clerics are generally high health, high defense melee spellcasters. Between investing in Constitution, Strength/Dexterity, and Wisdom, there's not a lot of room for Charisma. An optimized Cleric is terrible at talking to people, which can clash against many people's narrative for a Cleric they want to play.

Obviously, a Cleric with poor Charisma can choose to talk to people, and a Sorcerer with high Charisma can choose not to, but those are instances of the narrative being opposite of the mechanics of a character. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for builds that have features that contradict one another.

Most people roleplay themselves.

I rarely see people roll play their characters 18 cha.

I also see people with a 10 Cha on the character sheet being party leader with their real life 18 cha.

[Man_Over_Game]

To the OP: It’s worth noting that I really like the way you approach the prestige class option in general and I’d like to see something like that exist, at least at the UA level.

It feels really good to hear you say that. Thank you.

I know that Mearls and JC did say at some point that they were interested in seeing classes use different attributes, so hopefully we'll see something official like this in the future.

[Genoin]

Hey it’s D & D, we can fluff nearly anything!

Imagine it radically improving reaction time.

“The taste of blood screems in your mouth, and your veins feel like they’re made of ice and fire. Your mind itself runs at an impossible pace. Everyone around you seems slow while you move easily where you will”

The biggest problem is that if you refluff the Barbarian's abilities to work with Dex without taking something significant away it will become a borderline strict upgrade for most mechanical purposes.

It would be similar to changing the Wizard's casting stat to Charisma, not only does it not fit the theme of the class, it's almost always an upgrade from an Int wizard, especially since there are no "skill points" anymore.

[Rukelnikov]

Take the Sorcerer example. Sorcerers use Charisma, an attribute that is used for your interactions with people. However, many people play Sorcerers and choose not to interact with others for one reason or another, but still want to play the Sorcerer class. As a result, what they want to do with the character and the mechanics of the character don't mesh all too well.

Similarly, Clerics are generally high health, high defense melee spellcasters. Between investing in Constitution, Strength/Dexterity, and Wisdom, there's not a lot of room for Charisma. An optimized Cleric is terrible at talking to people, which can clash against many people's narrative for a Cleric they want to play.

Obviously, a Cleric with poor Charisma can choose to talk to people, and a Sorcerer with high Charisma can choose not to, but those are instances of the narrative being opposite of the mechanics of a character. That's what I'm looking for.

But there's still skills involved, Cleric's have Persuasion and Insight as class skills, and maybe its me, but my clerics tend to always have decent Cha (12+).

Anyways that's besides the point, I get the idea what you are asking for is:

"What character concept would you like to play that is mechanically infeasible with official material?"

My answers:


Generalist Wizard
Rage Mage
True Gish-in-a-can (Ignore this if you may, twould be a long discussion)

[Man_Over_Game]

Hey it’s D & D, we can fluff nearly anything!

Imagine it radically improving reaction time.

“The taste of blood screems in your mouth, and your veins feel like they’re made of ice and fire. Your mind itself runs at an impossible pace. Everyone around you seems slow while you move easily where you will”

For me, though, hyperawareness and power through mobility seems like a trait that uses Wisdom and Dexterity. AKA Monks.

I feel like this might fit more as a Monk that has a Rage-esc mechanic (similar to how Bladesingers have their chant)?

[Genoin]

For me, though, hyperawareness and power through mobility seems like a trait that uses Wisdom and Dexterity. AKA Monks.

I feel like this might fit more as a Monk that has a Rage-esc mechanic (similar to how Bladesingers have their chant)?

I would be much more on board with this. As I previously posted, the Barbarian class abilities become way too strong if you allow Dex to be used in place of Str for Rage and Reckless Attack.

[Jophiel]

I think the problem with your Dex based Barbarian concept mechanically, is there is really no way to justify Rage working with Dexterity.
Eh, it's more damage. It's easy to come up with justifications for "Is doing more damage", it's just that as written Barbarians do it with Strength so you assume it has to be giant power hacks. I mean, it's no big deal and I'm not looking to debate it but the OP asked and I answered :smallsmile:

[Genoin]

Rage Mage

I would be interested in this as well. Perhaps a Primal path that gives them access to some spellcasting (primarily damage/self buff spells) that they can cast while raging?

[Genoin]

Eh, it's more damage. It's easy to come up with justifications for "Is doing more damage", it's just that as written Barbarians do it with Strength so you assume it has to be giant power hacks. I mean, it's no big deal and I'm not looking to debate it but the OP asked and I answered :smallsmile:

Its not only damage though, many of the classes features are noticeably more powerful if you have Dex as your main stat. For one of the best martial classes already, its too much of a buff. I think you would have to lose Reckless Swing altogether to begin to make it reasonable.

[stoutstien]

Finding some way to make rage work may be possible, but Reckless Attack is blatantly opposite thematically from Dex based attacks.

Let's call this the priamal path of the wind just as a place holder
At 3rd lv you can your rage damage is no longer limited to shrink base attacks and works up to a range of 60 ft . Also when you you're a reckless attack feature you no longer gain advantage but can add a 1d4 extra weapon damage to all weapon attacks. Attack roll still have advantage against you until the start of your next turn.
6th lv you can now add ability modifier while two weapon fighting and you can make two attacks when you preform attack of opportunity.
Just a spitball idea

[Jophiel]

Its not only damage though, many of the classes features are noticeably more powerful if you have Dex as your main stat. For one of the best martial classes already, its too much of a buff. I think you would have to lose Reckless Swing altogether to begin to make it reasonable.
I'm not asking "Hey, let me use Dex in lieu of Strength" though. I get that the class isn't balanced around that. I'm saying that a Dex-based Barbarian is an example of a (currently) subpar 5e class build that I would want to play but isn't feasible based on the existing mechanics.

If I just wanted to demand a stat swap, that's between me and my DM (who would be fully justified in saying no)

[Genoin]

Let's call this the priamal path of the wind just as a place holder
At 3rd lv you can your rage damage is no longer limited to shrink base attacks and works up to a range of 60 ft . Also when you you're a reckless attack feature you no longer gain advantage but can add a 1d4 extra weapon damage to all weapon attacks. Attack roll still have advantage against you until the start of your next turn.
6th lv you can now add ability modifier while two weapon fighting and you can make two attacks when you preform attack of opportunity.
Just a spitball idea

I think we should limit the rage damage and reckless attacks to Melee + Thrown weapons, but otherwise I think something like this could be a step in the right direction.

[Ganymede]

I play an intelligent barbarian with the storm herald primal path. I don't let a paltry thing like fear of being unoptomized stop me.

[Genoin]

I'm not asking "Hey, let me use Dex in lieu of Strength" though. I get that the class isn't balanced around that. I'm saying that a Dex-based Barbarian is an example of a (currently) subpar 5e class build that I would want to play but isn't feasible based on the existing mechanics.

If I just wanted to demand a stat swap, that's between me and my DM (who would be fully justified in saying no)

Understood, sorry for the misinterpretation. I do think this will require reworking of multiple core class features to work, but its not impossible.

[stoutstien]

I think we should limit the rage damage and reckless attacks to Melee + Thrown weapons, but otherwise I think something like this could be a step in the right direction.
Yeah that was the idea wording has never been my strong point 😁.

[RickAsWritten]

Maybe Trickery Cleric with a different spell-casting stat. People that are tricksy and mischievous are not usually wise.

I could see Charisma or Intelligence being justified. Charisma because you are a people person that likes to get into people's heads, and Intelligence because you are the smartest person in the room and you prove it by duping people.

[Genoin]

I play an intelligent barbarian with the storm herald primal path. I don't let a paltry thing like fear of being unoptomized stop me.

Off topic, but there was a guy in another thread who was talking about his Barbarian that was intelligent, but was still illiterate. For example, he kept a journal, but had his own made up pictorial written language. I thought it was a fantastic concept.

[Genoin]

Maybe Trickery Cleric with a different spell-casting stat. People that are tricksy and mischievous are not usually wise.

I feel like I would have a ton of fun playing a Charisma based Trickery cleric.

[stoutstien]

On the topic of a spell caster that uses the life force as fuel. Maybe a sorcerer subclass that can substitute hit die for sorcery points? Or is warlock a better fit?
Blood magic is a popular image might be worth a whole new class

[Man_Over_Game]

I play an intelligent barbarian with the storm herald primal path. I don't let a paltry thing like fear of being unoptomized stop me.

Now, THIS is something I think I could work with. The problem with Dexterity vs. Strength is that there is a lot on the line when you're messing around with a single stat that controls everything. Dexterity is someone's attack, their initiative, their defense, their skills, and often their class features. Sometimes, an entire class's identity is tied into a single stat, and modifying that is a really big deal.

However, messing around with secondary/tertiary stats is pretty friggin' easy (as it shows in my Prestige Options homebrew).

You gave me a really good idea. Use Intelligence for calculating your Unarmored Defense instead of Dexterity. It's not like Dexterity is useful for a Barbarian for anything other than determining AC.

Now a Wizard has three methods to enhance their survivability:

Invest in Dexterity + Mage Armor
Invest in Fighter + Strength for Heavy Armor
Invest in Barbarian for Rage/Unarmored Defense.

[Man_Over_Game]

Maybe Trickery Cleric with a different spell-casting stat. People that are tricksy and mischievous are not usually wise.

I could see Charisma or Intelligence being justified. Charisma because you are a people person that likes to get into people's heads, and Intelligence because you are the smartest person in the room and you prove it by duping people.


I feel like I would have a ton of fun playing a Charisma based Trickery cleric.

Noted. I'll make sure to add that as one of the options. The problem then becomes how it can be overpowered through multiclassing. Would a Trickery Cleric, gaining access to Sorcerer or Warlock dipping, be too overpowered?

On second thought, nevermind. I'll do some theorycrafting on my own time; I don't want to derail the thread.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I would very much like a class that does not have to make physical attacks or cast spells. Playing an officer type character who doesn't do anything himself is appealing to me, and in my personal games I've encountered a few players that wishes to play as pacifists, which is difficult even as a life cleric with a focus on healing and buffing.

[stoutstien]

The only really wrong thing with the storm herald is the action economy.
If we could activate the auras as part of an attack instead of eating ba every turn.

But a rage mage would be fun.
Int for unarmored fomula.
Can activate a limited spell list while raging
Heroism, tunderwave
Enlarge self only, spider climb
Dispel magic, haste
Would be fun

[stoutstien]

I would very much like a class that does not have to make physical attacks or cast spells. Playing an officer type character who doesn't do anything himself is appealing to me, and in my personal games I've encountered a few players that wishes to play as pacifists, which is difficult even as a life cleric with a focus on healing and buffing.
Order domain/ glamour bard. You buff, you heal, you debuff. Leave the wacking stuff with sticks to the rabble

[Man_Over_Game]

I would very much like a class that does not have to make physical attacks or cast spells. Playing an officer type character who doesn't do anything himself is appealing to me, and in my personal games I've encountered a few players that wishes to play as pacifists, which is difficult even as a life cleric with a focus on healing and buffing.

A level 3 Mastermind can use the Help action from 30 feet away, twice per turn, without attacking. Not only that, but you're a Rogue with Expertise in skills, and can appear to look like virtually anyone, so you'd be quite good at avoiding combat. Your higher level abilities also make it so that allies/enemies can take attacks for you, so it's quite good at not participating in combat.

For a more healer approach, look at the Divine Soul Sorcerer with a single level into Life Cleric. Your main tool would be Warding Bond. You can pick up Heavy Armor Master and absorb damage on behalf of your friends as you mitigate tons of damage as a martyr. You can use Cure Wounds and your level 6 Divine Soul feature to enhance healing on yourself. Eventually pick up the Tough feat. You'd effectively become a massive life battery for your team.

[Ganymede]

Now, THIS is something I think I could work with. The problem with Dexterity vs. Strength is that there is a lot on the line when you're messing around with a single stat that controls everything. Dexterity is someone's attack, their initiative, their defense, their skills, and often their class features. Sometimes, an entire class's identity is tied into a single stat, and modifying that is a really big deal.

However, messing around with secondary/tertiary stats is pretty friggin' easy (as it shows in my Prestige Options homebrew).

You gave me a really good idea. Use Intelligence for calculating your Unarmored Defense instead of Dexterity. It's not like Dexterity is useful for a Barbarian for anything other than determining AC.

I mean, until level 4, my barbarian's strength and dex mods are the same: +2. She makes good use of it with her longbow, it synergizes well with her class bonuses to dex saves and initiative, and it caps out her AC in conjunction with her half plate.

[Genoin]

Noted. I'll make sure to add that as one of the options. The problem then becomes how it can be overpowered through multiclassing. Would a Trickery Cleric, gaining access to Sorcerer or Warlock dipping, be too overpowered?.

The warlock one might concern me. 2 level Hexblade dip for Cha to hit and damage, plus eldritch blast with Cha mod damage.

I dont think Sorcerer would be a problem.

[Man_Over_Game]

The warlock one might concern me. 2 level Hexblade dip for Cha to hit and damage, plus eldritch blast with Cha mod damage.

I dont think Sorcerer would be a problem.

Just realized something important... I was thinking this entire time "Oh, this is a good idea! I better make sure I make a note of this and theorycraft the sh** out of it so nothing breaks!"

I just remembered I made Clerics be able to use Charisma on my Prestige Options, as long as they don't take Sorcerer/Warlock levels. God I'm stupid.

[dejarnjc]

This is a pretty common one but I'd love a STR based rogue archetype. Sometimes you want to sneak attack someone with a non ranged, non finesse weapon like a truncheon and be a big, burly thug.

[stoutstien]

This is a pretty common one but I'd love a STR based rogue archetype. Sometimes you want to sneak attack someone with a non ranged, non finesse weapon like a truncheon and be a big, burly thug.
This can already be done with little effort. I think there was a guide called does this cloak come in large or something. You are still limited to finesse weapons but I'm pretty sure most Dm okay with a 1D4 blackjack or something

[Man_Over_Game]

This can already be done with little effort. I think there was a guide called does this cloak come in large or something. You are still limited to finesse weapons but I'm pretty sure most Dm okay with a 1D4 blackjack or something

Battlerager + Rogue. Gain Sneak Attack + Advantage + Temporary HP every time you Reckless Attack. Gain a Bonus Action attack every turn while grappling someone. Deal damage to enemies when you grapple them. Grapple with Advantage and Expertise.

And that's just the Battlerager.

[MaxWilson]

I'm constantly adapting my Prestige Options homebrew with new options, and I want to know what you guys have thought about that aren't quite feasible in the current 5e ruleset.

Things like:


Strength-based Monk.
A Cleric who talks to people.
A Sorcerer who's bad at talking to others.
A Caster who channels energy from their own life force.


Or anything else that you've wanted to try but couldn't due to worrying about suboptimal stats.

A powerful wizard a la Macros the Black or Ebenezer McCoy (the Blackstaff) or Wizard Rashid (the Gatekeeper) or even just Harry Dresden on a good day and an Earth ley line, with costly, large-scale battlefield-shaping strategic magic. It just doesn't fit into 5E's magic system though, which is a weird combination of small-scale tactical magic and a few big strategically-exploitable spells (e.g. Antipathy/Sympathy, Planar Binding, Mass Suggestion, True Polymorph). High-level 5E play is hugely influenced by the small handful of spells which happen to scale well, and there's no real rhyme or reason to it.

Along similar lines: an illusionist/enchanter wizard who leverages shapechanging, illusions and mind magic to infiltrate enemy strongholds, sow disorder, and bring back information on dispositions/command structures/maps. (For example: the fake Mad-eye Moody in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.) Again, 5E magic just isn't really up to magical disguises that have to last for days or weeks at a time.

You did ask about ruleset issues, after all.

[GlenSmash!]

Agreed a DEX based barbarian should at least be an option for 1 sub class. At the same time I don't want to overshadow the rest of them. Maybe slower rage damage progress but allow it to apply to ranged attacks

I think Dex barb are ok options for a number of sublclasses. You lose bonus damage from rage, and reckless attack, some athletics check successes, and access to high damage feats but gain on average higher AC, and a bump to lot of useful skills.

Ancestral Guardian abilities arguably work better using a Longbow anyway by marking your opponent, than staying so far out of range that it's extra painful for them to track you down. Zealots can also deliver radiant damage at range.

I still consider it subpar but it's not bad by any means, and if you are lucky enough to pick up a Belt of Giant Strength you get the best of both worlds.

[dejarnjc]

This can already be done with little effort. I think there was a guide called does this cloak come in large or something. You are still limited to finesse weapons but I'm pretty sure most Dm okay with a 1D4 blackjack or something

Yeah but it feels subpar without multi-classing since you're stuck having to take moderately armored as a feat since you won't have that maxed out DEX for your AC. It's not a big deal IMO but it's less "optimal" than playing a normal DEX rogue.

[stoutstien]

Yeah but it feels subpar without multi-classing since you're stuck having to take moderately armored as a feat since you won't have that maxed out DEX for your AC. It's not a big deal IMO but it's less "optimal" than playing a normal DEX rogue.
What they do get that extra feat😁. But I hear you. In the homebre section someone made a thug sub class that trade It sneak attack dice for rides like bleeding and grapple.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573852-PEACH-Roguish-Archetype-%97-Thug&highlight=Thug+homebrew
Found it

[Willie the Duck]

A warrior that's equally good with a longsword and longbow.

Definitely. Thrown weapon masters as well.

[Spiritchaser]

Dex and Str?

I’m currently fussing with a work around for this (for Dex/Str builds in general). It’s not quite ready for prime time, but I’ll post the work in process in the next day or two

[Man_Over_Game]

Dex and Str?

I’m currently fussing with a work around for this (for Dex/Str builds in general). It’s not quite ready for prime time, but I’ll post the work in process in the next day or two

Could make it a feat:

Physical Superiority
When you use your Action to attack and use Strength as your attack attribute, you can use your Bonus Action to attack with the same weapon using your Dexterity attribute for the attack and damage rolls.
When you attack and use Dexterity as your attack attribute, you can add your Strength modifier to the damage of that attack on a hit, once per turn.

Or, put another way:
When swinging a heavy weapon, you can swing it slightly faster.
When attacking with a precision weapon, you can inflict more wounds by adding raw power.

[Rukelnikov]

Could make it a feat:

Physical Superiority
When you use your Action to attack and use Strength as your attack attribute, you can use your Bonus Action to attack with the same weapon using your Dexterity attribute for the attack and damage rolls.
When you attack and use Dexterity as your attack attribute, you can add your Strength modifier to the damage of that attack on a hit, once per turn.

Or, put another way:
When swinging a heavy weapon, you can swing it slightly faster.
When attacking with a precision weapon, you can inflict more wounds by adding raw power.

Thins is, few if any build would benefit from switching, and most players opt for 1 attack method and stick to it unless its practically impossible to use.

The first benefit would be a boon to heavy weapon users, but its pretty similar to PAM, useful for those that want to fight with heavy non-polearms, so it may find some use.

Second point becomes standard for ranged combat, those crossbowers are gonna be loading with a lot of strenght!

Maybe "When attacking with a weapon that allows for Str or Dex to be used as the attack attribute, you can choose whichever is more convenient for you for any given feature" could be one of the feats bullets.

That way, a Dex based Barbarian could add rage damage to finesse weapons, and I hope there's at least 1 more case where its useful :P

[Man_Over_Game]

Thins is, few if any build would benefit from switching, and most players opt for 1 attack method and stick to it unless its practically impossible to use.

The first benefit would be a boon to heavy weapon users, but its pretty similar to PAM, useful for those that want to fight with heavy non-polearms, so it may find some use.

Second point becomes standard for ranged combat, those crossbowers are gonna be loading with a lot of strenght!

Maybe "When attacking with a weapon that allows for Str or Dex to be used as the attack attribute, you can choose whichever is more convenient for you for any given feature" could be one of the feats bullets.

That way, a Dex based Barbarian could add rage damage to finesse weapons, and I hope there's at least 1 more case where its useful :P

You don't need to necessarily switch. Dual Wielders/Sharpshooters are very effective at being both melee and ranged combatants, yet they usually stick with one option. I wrote both lines so you can't use both, but you can choose between both. As a result, they're not likely to make someone's specialized build overpowered (like PAM+Sentinel+GWM) but it will make their niche build slightly more effective while also expanding their options.

Now, you don't have to be a Strength-focused combatant and never use a Longbow. Now you can be a Barbarian and feel like you won't be punished for having a 14 Dex. +3-+4 damage per round seems to be the sweet spot for where feats should fall under, and I think adding too many options to abuse this would result in surpassing that threshold.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm constantly adapting my Prestige Options homebrew with new options, and I want to know what you guys have thought about that aren't quite feasible in the current 5e ruleset.

Things like:


Strength-based Monk.
A Cleric who talks to people.
A Sorcerer who's bad at talking to others.
A Caster who channels energy from their own life force.



Or anything else that you've wanted to try but couldn't due to worrying about suboptimal stats.


INT-based half-caster.

Or the aforementioned character who is heavy on Skills, Tools, and Languages, but INT-based rather than CHA (Bard) or DEX (Rogue).

(I had to kludge together a character who was a Thief-3 / War Mage-2 / RevRanger-1 to make something like this happen... E: oh, and customized Sage background... and luckily the character was already supposed to be a half elf... )

[Man_Over_Game]

INT-based half-caster.

Or the aforementioned character who is heavy on Skills, Tools, and Languages, but INT-based rather than CHA (Bard) or DEX (Rogue).

(I had to kludge together a character who was a Thief-3 / War Mage-2 / RevRanger-1 to make something like this happen...)

Could that be solved with an Arcane Trickster with a higher Intelligence than Dexterity attribute? I actually ran one of those. Was a VHuman with Ritual Caster. It was probably my most fun character of all time.



For a more combat focus, does an Eldritch Knight with a level into Rogue do the same thing that you're looking for?

[Max_Killjoy]

Could that be solved with an Arcane Trickster with a higher Intelligence than Dexterity attribute? I actually ran one of those. Was a VHuman with Ritual Caster. It was probably my most fun character of all time.



For a more combat focus, does an Eldritch Knight with a level into Rogue do the same thing that you're looking for?


If you allowed them access to more than two schools, and squinted, it might.

[LudicSavant]

I'm constantly adapting my Prestige Options homebrew with new options, and I want to know what you guys have thought about that aren't quite feasible in the current 5e ruleset.

Things like:


Strength-based Monk.
A Cleric who talks to people.
A Sorcerer who's bad at talking to others.
A Caster who channels energy from their own life force.



Or anything else that you've wanted to try but couldn't due to worrying about suboptimal stats.

Int-based non-Wizards (non EKs/ATs, too). I'd love for Knowledge Clerics to actually want Intelligence. Or to have a Knowledge Paladin. Or a genius tactician Fighter who isn't an Eldritch Knight.

Also, not sure if it's relevant to what you're doing, but I'd really like to see races matched to the "wrong" classes pretty much across the board. Orc Wizards and such.

[Agent-KI7KO]

I made a Cloistered Scholar bard who has proficiency with all INT skills and Insight.

She is a researcher first, story trader second, adventurer third, entertainer last. Does this count?

[rlc]

Dex Barbarian. I have the concept for it, just don't want to saddle a group with the character.

I saw a video where someone made a dex barbarian (actually 9 levels of barbarian and 11 levels of fighter, but whatever) and it was pretty much the master at tanking by the time it was all said and done.

[Rukelnikov]

You don't need to necessarily switch. Dual Wielders/Sharpshooters are very effective at being both melee and ranged combatants, yet they usually stick with one option.

I agree, I said the same thing.


I wrote both lines so you can't use both, but you can choose between both. As a result, they're not likely to make someone's specialized build overpowered (like PAM+Sentinel+GWM) but it will make their niche build slightly more effective while also expanding their options.

Yes you are, its why I mentioned the crossbowers, XBE + SS + This feat, means add Str to the damage of an already powerful build.


Now, you don't have to be a Strength-focused combatant and never use a Longbow. Now you can be a Barbarian and feel like you won't be punished for having a 14 Dex. +3-+4 damage per round seems to be the sweet spot for where feats should fall under, and I think adding too many options to abuse this would result in surpassing that threshold.

I like the idea of making barbs Dex more relevant, but, which half of the feat would they be using?

[Luccan]

Looking at your prestige options, what about a barbarian whose rages make him more agile, instead of physically stronger? You could frame it as more of a combat focus or their instincts becoming more finely tuned to danger. Replace the STR benefits of Rage (and maybe other class features) with DEX benefits.

[Man_Over_Game]

One of the key things I'm doing with my Prestige Options is to make sure that none of the options are better than the default builds. A barbarian that uses Dex over Str would have higher AC, multiclass too well with Rogue, Monk, Ranger, Fighter, or virtually any build that uses Dex.

A Dex Barbarian would be strictly better, in virtually every way, to a Str one. That isn't quite what I'm looking for.

[Man_Over_Game]

Int-based non-Wizards (non EKs/ATs, too). I'd love for Knowledge Clerics to actually want Intelligence. Or to have a Knowledge Paladin. Or a genius tactician Fighter who isn't an Eldritch Knight.

Also, not sure if it's relevant to what you're doing, but I'd really like to see races matched to the "wrong" classes pretty much across the board. Orc Wizards and such.

I do have some intelligent Cleric options, as well as having Conquest Paladins use Intelligence (treating their fear effects as a domination of minds).

Orcs actually do make good Evokers. Use their own health to Overchannel a spell and resist death as they do it.

[Luccan]

One of the key things I'm doing with my Prestige Options is to make sure that none of the options are better than the default builds. A barbarian that uses Dex over Str would have higher AC, multiclass too well with Rogue, Monk, Ranger, Fighter, or virtually any build that uses Dex.

A Dex Barbarian would be strictly better, in virtually every way, to a Str one. That isn't quite what I'm looking for.

You already have class restrictions for most of the casters that switch stats. Maybe forbid two or three of those classes? (Fighter already works pretty well with standard Barb, so...). Up to you, though, it's just what I thought of.

[Sahe]

Dual wielding monk and heavy weapon monk are both common archetypes I'd love to realize but can't really.

4 Elements Monk to me is unappealing, because it's weak, but because it's thematically weak and for example doing a specialized 4E Monk with only one Element is difficult.

Similarly Beast Master Ranger is weak and terrible at delivering the "my best friend is my wolf" simply because you don't start with your subclass at lvl 1.

I'd also really like a generalist Wizard, which is why I quite liked the Lore Wizard.

[Rukelnikov]

Similarly Beast Master Ranger is weak and terrible at delivering the "my best friend is my wolf" simply because you don't start with your subclass at lvl 1.

Check the revised one, its much better, on par with the rest of subclasses.


I'd also really like a generalist Wizard, which is why I quite liked the Lore Wizard.

Me too, but it was stupidly broken as to ever see the light :(

[Man_Over_Game]

You already have class restrictions for most of the casters that switch stats. Maybe forbid two or three of those classes? (Fighter already works pretty well with standard Barb, so...). Up to you, though, it's just what I thought of.

Assuming you block out multiclassing altogether, a Dex Barbarian would have only 2 stats to worry about (Dex for attacking+AC, Con for HP+AC), where a Str Barbarian would have to worry about 3 (Str for attacking, Dex for AC, Con for HP+AC). Not to mention the fact that the Dex Barbarian would have no penalty to use long range weapons when the Str Barbarian does.

The only benefits to using Strength over Dex when you have an option for both is that Strength works with two-handed/reach weapons, and that Strength is required to not have a speed penalty when using the high AC Heavy Armor stuff. Only one of those two is applicable, and if someone said I could use a Rapier and a Longbow, OR I could use a halberd, I'm taking the melee+range combination.

There would have to be a plethora of penalties to the Dex Barbarian for it to not be strictly better than the Str version, and I want to avoid changing the core mechanics of a class just to justify using an alternate attribute for features.

[Man_Over_Game]

Dual wielding monk and heavy weapon monk are both common archetypes I'd love to realize but can't really.

4 Elements Monk to me is unappealing, because it's weak, but because it's thematically weak and for example doing a specialized 4E Monk with only one Element is difficult.

Similarly Beast Master Ranger is weak and terrible at delivering the "my best friend is my wolf" simply because you don't start with your subclass at lvl 1.

I'd also really like a generalist Wizard, which is why I quite liked the Lore Wizard.

I could see some kind of "blademaster" Monk that can use bladed weapons instead of their unarmed strike (restrict it to either light weapons or the Glaive, both circumstances gaining Martial Arts bonus damage once per turn).

Best solution I can think of for Beast Master is just to talk to your DM about it. Check out this link (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128701/if-beast-master-rangers-could-use-bonus-actions-to-attack-with-their-companion), where I ask about how OP it would be if BM's could attack with their beast with a BA when the Ranger makes an Attack action, and someone actually said they did it and it actually worked fine! It's not quite what you're describing, but I'd have no issues, as a DM, of reducing your starting gear/gold/skills so you start with a friendly pet that becomes combat ready by level 3. Then just regain any skills you lost by the compromise (treated as no longer having to focus on training the pet constantly), and it should be fairly balanced.

The War Mage really seems like a generalist Wizard to me. Adaptable defenses, bonus to Saving Throws (including Concentration), improved Initiative, and enhanced Counterspell/Dispel. Seems pretty generic to me.

[Max_Killjoy]

I could see some kind of "blademaster" Monk that can use bladed weapons instead of their unarmed strike (restrict it to either light weapons or the Glaive, both circumstances gaining Martial Arts bonus damage once per turn).

Best solution I can think of for Beast Master is just to talk to your DM about it. Check out this link (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128701/if-beast-master-rangers-could-use-bonus-actions-to-attack-with-their-companion), where I ask about how OP it would be if BM's could attack with their beast with a BA when the Ranger makes an Attack action, and someone actually said they did it and it actually worked fine! It's not quite what you're describing, but I'd have no issues, as a DM, of reducing your starting gear/gold/skills so you start with a friendly pet that becomes combat ready by level 3. Then just regain any skills you lost by the compromise (treated as no longer having to focus on training the pet constantly), and it should be fairly balanced.

The War Mage really seems like a generalist Wizard to me. Adaptable defenses, bonus to Saving Throws (including Concentration), improved Initiative, and enhanced Counterspell/Dispel. Seems pretty generic to me.

I like the idea of the Kensei, it seems like it should be the "weapon master", but it almost seems like the melee weapon is pushed into being functionally a shield with unarmed strikes being the offense... it's odd.

The Revised Ranger (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf) from UA might solve the problems for Beastmaster.

War Mage isn't popular, but I really like it for a 2-level multiclass for certain kinds of characters.

[MaxWilson]

Similarly Beast Master Ranger is weak and terrible at delivering the "my best friend is my wolf" simply because you don't start with your subclass at lvl 1.

I never understood this particular objection to the Beast Master Ranger. "My best friend the wolf doesn't get bonuses" is not the same thing as "I have no wolf as a best friend." If you want a wolf buddy, you can get one--you could quite reasonably ask the DM to include your wolf buddy as a background feature, kind of like a Noble's retainers or any other NPC really. It's not much different from buying a 25 gp mastiff with your starting gold.

The thing that makes Beastmaster weird is that if you do have a wolf buddy, he gets dumber and shows less initiative as soon as you hit level 3 and become a Beastmaster. Suddenly he can't do anything without you micromanaging him.

[Man_Over_Game]

Thank you for all of the inspiration you guys have given me. I've worked hard to implement most of them.

As of this point, though, I've ran a bit dry on ideas. Here's a brief overview of all of the options, and let me know if you have something you'd want to play that's not solved with these changes:



Barbarian - Dexterity (Berserker)
Bard - Intelligence (Lore)
Cleric - Charisma (All), Intelligence (Arcana, Knowledge)
Druid - Charisma (Shephard)
Fighter - Wisdom (Arcane Seeker)
Monk - Strength (Open Hand), Intelligence (Four Elements, Sun Soul, Shadow)
Paladin - Intelligence (Conquest), Wisdom (Ancients)
Ranger - Intelligence (Horizon Walker, Monster Slayer)
Sorcerer - Wisdom (All)
Warlock - Wisdom (Archfey, Hexblade), Intelligence (Great Old One), Constitution (Undying)
Wizard - Charisma (Enchantment), Wisdom (Divination)

[TyGuy]

I never understood this particular objection to the Beast Master Ranger. "My best friend the wolf doesn't get bonuses" is not the same thing as "I have no wolf as a best friend." If you want a wolf buddy, you can get one--you could quite reasonably ask the DM to include your wolf buddy as a background feature, kind of like a Noble's retainers or any other NPC really.

Did exactly this. I was DM, a player knew he'd go BM. I gave him a best friend mundane animal. He unlock all the perks at level 3.

[TyGuy]

I like the idea of the Kensei, it seems like it should be the "weapon master", but it almost seems like the melee weapon is pushed into being functionally a shield with unarmed strikes being the offense... it's odd.

Exactly. Kensei is a major disappointment for me. I would heavily modify it upon request. But sadly, my DM takes WotC content as gospel and won't make alterations and doesn't do homebrew.

[MaxWilson]

Did exactly this. I was DM, a player knew he'd go BM. I gave him a best friend mundane animal. He unlock all the perks at level 3.

How did you deal with the fact that the wolf was no longer able to attack independently once the ranger hit level 3? Did you just say, "That rule is stupid, I'm ignoring it"?

[TyGuy]

How did you deal with the fact that the wolf was no longer able to attack independently once the ranger hit level 3? Did you just say, "That rule is stupid, I'm ignoring it"?
His giant badger was a non-combatant. Basically followed the PC around and could take the dodge/dash/disengage actions. At level 3 a magical bond was formed between the two and all the mechanics came online.

[Aquillion]

"What character concept would you like to play that is mechanically infeasible with official material?"

My answers:


Generalist Wizard

Depends what you mean by "mechanically infeasible." And "official", I guess. And how gullible your DM / group are in terms of accepting obviously ridiculously unbalanced stuff.

But honestly, the School of Divination works fine. Aside from cheap scribing, only one ability in the entire school depends on casting Divination spells, and even that one helps you cast other spells after casting Divination spells. The really important ability, Portent, is just a general all-around buff.

[Rukelnikov]

Depends what you mean by "mechanically infeasible." And "official", I guess. And how gullible your DM / group are in terms of accepting obviously ridiculously unbalanced stuff.

But honestly, the School of Divination works fine. Aside from cheap scribing, one ability in the entire school depends on casting Divination spells, and even that one helps you cast other spells after casting Divination spells. The really important ability, Portent, is just a general all-around buff.

Yeah, and Bladesinger and WW have no features depending on specific schools. But neither of the three have the generalist vibe to them. Lore Wiz is the only "generalist" subclass, but its unusably broken.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, and Bladesinger and WW have no features depending on specific schools. But neither of the three have the generalist vibe to them. Lore Wiz is the only "generalist" subclass, but its unusably broken.

I'm not entirely sure why the War Mage isn't considered a generalist.

Gains bonus to initiative, which is important for Wizards to create a battlefield change before enemies can adapt or before allies can't take advantage of them.
Gains a bonus to AC against one attack per round. Wizards are not intended to be attacked often.
Gains a bonus to Saving Throws for one effect per round, to resist a really bad effect or to maintain Concentration.
Gains bonuses to using Counterspell, a relatively rare and powerful spell that is hard to find outside of Wizards.

Consider how often Counterspell is mentioned as a spell that Wizards prepare, and then just consider adding AC, Initiative, and Concentration Saving Throw buffs as needed, and tell me that's not "generic Wizard" material.

It's not as flashy as a Lore Wizard, but we all know how that turned out.

[samcifer]

4 Elements Monk

[Man_Over_Game]

4 Elements Monk

Do you think that allowing them to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom would be enough to salvage them?

This would mean that they could take levels into War Mage, gain access to Shield and Absorb Elements, and have several elemental cantrips, just from a couple levels into Wizard.

[rlc]

Dex based paladin, maybe with unarmored defense fluffed as protected by the strength of its convictions? Or maybe it gets ranged smites and something else to support that synergy?

[Man_Over_Game]

Dex based paladin, maybe with unarmored defense fluffed as protected by the strength of its convictions? Or maybe it gets ranged smites and something else to support that synergy?

Devotion and Redemption Paladins actually work quite well with ranged attacks, with Devotion being able to enhance their ranged weapon (imagine Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert + 5 to hit!) while maintaining Concentration on their powerful auras, and Redemption Paladin works as a damage soaker by being adjacent to allies and taking hits for them with their large HP pool.

Additionally, the Sun Soul or Open Hand Monk fit quite well with what you're describing, with both gaining Unarmored Defense, the Sun Soul shooting literal beams of light, and the Open Hand Monk actually having incentives to avoid combat.


Do none of those depictions match what you're looking for?

[Rukelnikov]

I'm not entirely sure why the War Mage isn't considered a generalist.

Gains bonus to initiative, which is important for Wizards to create a battlefield change before enemies can adapt or before allies can't take advantage of them.
Gains a bonus to AC against one attack per round. Wizards are not intended to be attacked often.
Gains a bonus to Saving Throws for one effect per round, to resist a really bad effect or to maintain Concentration.
Gains bonuses to using Counterspell, a relatively rare and powerful spell that is hard to find outside of Wizards.

Consider how often Counterspell is mentioned as a spell that Wizards prepare, and then just consider adding AC, Initiative, and Concentration Saving Throw buffs as needed, and tell me that's not "generic Wizard" material.

It's not as flashy as a Lore Wizard, but we all know how that turned out.

It is useful for any wizard, just as +Int to concentration saves and +Int to Ac is also useful for any Wizard.

Having an Cantrip, and an extra spell added to the spellbook per level, sounds to me more generalist than the WW, or any published Wizard. To me, the generalist doesn't need to be able to do anything new, but do what it already does better. Kind of what would be the equivalent to the Champion, but for a Wizard.

[rlc]

Devotion and Redemption Paladins actually work quite well with ranged attacks, with Devotion being able to enhance their ranged weapon (imagine Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert + 5 to hit!) while maintaining Concentration on their powerful auras, and Redemption Paladin works as a damage soaker by being adjacent to allies and taking hits for them with their large HP pool.

Additionally, the Sun Soul or Open Hand Monk fit quite well with what you're describing, with both gaining Unarmored Defense, the Sun Soul shooting literal beams of light, and the Open Hand Monk actually having incentives to avoid combat.


Do none of those depictions match what you're looking for?

I might need to look into devotion again, but I was thinking about the paladin chassis more than the monk chassis. That, and people seem to want to do this multiclass often, but it's kind of inefficient stat-wise.

[Man_Over_Game]

I might need to look into devotion again, but I was thinking about the paladin chassis more than the monk chassis. That, and people seem to want to do this multiclass often, but it's kind of inefficient stat-wise.

I didn't necessarily mean the multiclass.

Truth be told, even if the stats were perfect, it's actually a terrible multiclass. All of the Paladin Smite spells require a Bonus Action, which competes with a lot of the Monk's special abilities. The Monk loses many of their features if they wear armor, and armor proficiency is one of the big reasons you play a Paladin. All but one of the Paladin's fighting styles are worthless to a Monk, and the only one that isn't requires the Monk to wield a weapon in one hand as they use it, translating a 1d8 damage attack to a 1d6+2 (the equivalent of a +1 damage bonus). You'd get more out of Monk/Cleric, or Paladin/Druid.

In my Prestige Options, I did include a Wisdom Oath of the Ancients Paladin option, but I still wouldn't recommend Monk/Paladin for these reasons. I guess the question would be to figure out what you want from both sides rather than trying to make a multiclass work.

[Max_Killjoy]

I didn't necessarily mean the multiclass.

Truth be told, even if the stats were perfect, it's actually a terrible multiclass. All of the Paladin Smite spells require a Bonus Action, which competes with a lot of the Monk's special abilities. The Monk loses many of their features if they wear armor, and armor proficiency is one of the big reasons you play a Paladin. All but one of the Paladin's fighting styles are worthless to a Monk, and the only one that isn't requires the Monk to wield a weapon in one hand as they use it, translating a 1d8 damage attack to a 1d6+2 (the equivalent of a +1 damage bonus). You'd get more out of Monk/Cleric, or Paladin/Druid.

In my Prestige Options, I did include a Wisdom Oath of the Ancients Paladin option, but I still wouldn't recommend Monk/Paladin for these reasons. I guess the question would be to figure out what you want from both sides rather than trying to make a multiclass work.

Besides, no one wants to play a Ponk or a Maladin. :smallwink:

[stoutstien]

Speaking of wisdom based paladin, I always wanted a Wis half caster that played like a shaman. Maybe an element focus or even a witch doctor feel.
Not like making a Wis based paladin is any more broken than All the easy charisma cross classes

[Man_Over_Game]

Speaking of wisdom based paladin, I always wanted a Wis half caster that played like a shaman. Maybe an element focus or even a witch doctor feel.

Erm, isn't that just...a Nature Cleric? Maybe mix in some Ranger (Monster Slayer fits well), and I'd say that's a really solid fit.

[Merudo]

Similarly, Clerics are generally high health, high defense melee spellcasters. Between investing in Constitution, Strength/Dexterity, and Wisdom, there's not a lot of room for Charisma. An optimized Cleric is terrible at talking to people, which can clash against many people's narrative for a Cleric they want to play.

A Hill Dwarf Cleric with Heavy armor proficiency and a Loxodon Cleric can dump both Strength and Dexterity and retain an excellent AC.

The extra points can then go into Charisma. I'd argue that the result is actually the optimal Cleric for a social campaign.

[Man_Over_Game]

A Hill Dwarf Cleric with Heavy armor proficiency and a Loxodon Cleric can dump both Strength and Dexterity and retain an excellent AC.

The extra points can then go into Charisma. I'd argue that the result is actually the optimal Cleric for a social campaign.

I feel like that's a niche solution, especially considering most people wouldn't consider "Dwarf" to be a niche "social" race.

Additionally, the Cleric has no benefit to gain Charisma in any regard. It's punishing to make the changes for that narrative choice, as you still need to invest in Constitution (as you're a Heavy Armor class, likely having emphasis on melee combat), Wisdom, and potentially an attack stat (depending on how physically oriented the Cleric choice is). Note that all of the Heavy Armor Cleric choices have Divine Strike.

I suppose you could go Nature Cleric and use Shillelagh, but Nature probably uses more Wisdom than most (as a lot of their powers involve working with animals, which rely more on Wisdom than Charisma).






You COULD worry about all of that, OR... You could just allow Clerics to use Charisma and just ban them from multiclassing with Sorcerers and Warlocks, which solves any multiclass concern. I'd be interested to know if someone can make an OP build with those restrictions. Hit me up if anyone can come up with anything.

[samcifer]

Do you think that allowing them to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom would be enough to salvage them?

This would mean that they could take levels into War Mage, gain access to Shield and Absorb Elements, and have several elemental cantrips, just from a couple levels into Wizard.

That or change either the number of ki pts granted per level and/or reduce the ki cost of spells.

[Merudo]

I feel like that's a niche solution, especially considering most people wouldn't consider "Dwarf" to be a niche "social" race.

It's a niche solution to a niche problem.


Additionally, the Cleric has no benefit to gain Charisma in any regard.

Order Clerics do.



It's punishing to make the changes for that narrative choice, as you still need to invest in Constitution (as you're a Heavy Armor class, likely having emphasis on melee combat), Wisdom, and potentially an attack stat (depending on how physically oriented the Cleric choice is). Note that all of the Heavy Armor Cleric choices have Divine Strike.

Just raise Wisdom & Constitution as high as can be, and put the left over points in Charisma. The importance of Divine Strike / Potent Spellcasting is vastly overblown.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's a niche solution to a niche problem.

I wouldn't say it's that niche, though. My first time playing DnD, I was really confused as to why the healer/priest class doesn't use the stat that involves talking to people, but instead uses the stat involving seeing stuff. I got over it, because that's what you do, but I think we've all ran into this same concern at one point or another.

You're right, though. There are ways to make Charisma relatively affordable for a Cleric, I just don't think they're good enough. Not when there is no problem of letting a Cleric use Charisma (and keeping an eye on multiclassing with Sorcerer/Warlock)

[TyGuy]

That or change either the number of ki pts granted per level and/or reduce the ki cost of spells.

So 4 elements remastered?

[Aquillion]

I wouldn't say it's that niche, though. My first time playing DnD, I was really confused as to why the healer/priest class doesn't use the stat that involves talking to people, but instead uses the stat involving seeing stuff. I got over it, because that's what you do, but I think we've all ran into this same concern at one point or another.

You're right, though. There are ways to make Charisma relatively affordable for a Cleric, I just don't think they're good enough. Not when there is no problem of letting a Cleric use Charisma (and keeping an eye on multiclassing with Sorcerer/Warlock)
Honestly, rather than letting a Cleric use Charisma (and then worrying about multiclassing), wouldn't it be simpler to have a domain that gives Wisdom to social skills? Perhaps a Faith domain.

I mean, that's what you really want here, right? A cleric who makes a good party face. Letting them use Charisma for casting is a big change that requires a lot of management, whereas letting them use Wisdom for social skills is a relatively trivial change that solves your problem without much fuss.

Something like...

You can add your Wisdom modifier to your Performance, Persuasion, Intimidation, and Deception checks, and become proficient in one of those skills.

Additionally, you have advantage when using one of those skills to convert others to your faith, to argue religious doctrine or to convince a members of your faith to act in according to its beliefs.

(Intimidation and Deception might be odd, but Intimidation is useful for "sinners in the hands of an angry deity"-style preachers, and deception allows you to bend the rules of your faith a bit, which I think should be an option for roleplaying reasons. eg. a cleric might plausibly use Deception to come up with a fake religious rule on the spot in order to convince an enraged mob to calm down.)

[samcifer]

So 4 elements remastered?

so that it's playable without burning out of resources too quickly? Yes.

[Rukelnikov]

so that it's playable without burning out of resources too quickly? Yes.

In our first 5e campaign a fellow player went 4e, the DM made a small change to it, and that monk packed a serious punch throughout its entire career.

The extra damage of Fangs of the Fire Snake was changed from 1 ki for +1d10 for 1 attack to 1 ki for +1d10 to all the attacks in the round.

[TyGuy]

so that it's playable without burning out of resources too quickly? Yes.

So... "Way of the four elements remastered"

It's a collaborative homebrew to fix the subclass. On iteration 3.1 last I checked.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view?usp=drivesdk

[Man_Over_Game]

Due to popular request, I've added these options to the Prestige Options list:


Dexterity Barbarian (Limited to Berserker)
Strength Rogue (Gains Medium Armor, weapons, can only Sneak Attack on your turn, and uses melee weapons instead of Finesse or ranged weapons)
Charisma Enchanter
Wisdom Diviner
Intelligence Paladin (Limited to Conquest)
SAD Storm Herald (because it's so bad and requires Constitution to be high).

[GlenSmash!]

SAD Storm Herald (because it's so bad and requires Constitution to be high).
[/LIST]

I actually thought this one was going to allow for attacks to be made with Constitution.

[Man_Over_Game]

I actually thought this one was going to allow for attacks to be made with Constitution.

It kinda already does, as its primary feature does use Constitution for all of its Saving Throws by default. The change the PO adds is using Strength instead of Dexterity for your Barbarian features. All this really does is increase the value of your Unarmored Defense feature. This doesn't increase your AC from other Dexterity sources, like from normal armor calculations.

So your Unarmored Defense is now Strength + Constitution.
But wearing armor will be Armor + Dexterity.

So you CAN make Dexterity a dump stat, but doing so will mean your AC will be less if you're wearing armor.

You might think, then, that it'd be best to focus on Strength, but then your Saving Throws suffer by neglecting Constitution. If you're focusing on Constitution, you're not much different than the default Storm Herald. You'll end up with better endgame AC, and hit your AC cap sooner.

As a result, the Storm Herald is slightly better, significantly more SAD, but without really changing all that much.

[GlenSmash!]

A warrior that's equally good with a longsword and longbow.

I never would have suspected the Artificer to give me what I wanted, but boy does the battlesmith come pretty close.

[Rukelnikov]

I never would have suspected the Artificer to give me what I wanted, but boy does the battlesmith come pretty close.

I'm not seeing it. What has the Battlesmith brought to the table in that regard that Hexblade didn't already do?

[GlenSmash!]

I'm not seeing it. What has the Battlesmith brought to the table in that regard that Hexblade didn't already do?

As far as I know even as Hexblade I can't have both a Longsword and a Longbow at the same time that would key off the same stat so I wouldn't be able to switch between the two as often. I can switch between the two summoning each as an action, but I wouldn't have both at the same time.

[Rukelnikov]

As far as I know even as Hexblade I can't have both a Longsword and a Longbow at the same time that would key off the same stat so I wouldn't be able to switch between the two as often. I can switch between the two summoning each as an action, but I wouldn't have both at the same time.

Ok, yeah you would need to spend an action to switch between them. Do note though, that unless you are dropping your weapons to the ground, with the Battle Smith you would need to spend your free interaction to sheathe you sword and your action to take out your bow.

You could also use Improved Pact Weapon for a Longbow, and Hexblades lvl 1 feature for a longsword, but you wouldn't have Extra Attack with the longsword, since that only applies to the Pact weapon.

[GlenSmash!]

Ok, yeah you would need to spend an action to switch between them. Do note though, that unless you are dropping your weapons to the ground, with the Battle Smith you would need to spend your free interaction to sheathe you sword and your action to take out your bow.

I would likely start combat with the longbow, then when in getting into melee draw the longsword as a free interaction and just keep the bow in my offhand. I can stow it the next round if wanting go versatile d10 or have a free hand to cast spells.

[Rukelnikov]

I would likely start combat with the longbow, then when in getting into melee draw the longsword as a free interaction and just keep the bow in my offhand. I can stow it the next round if wanting go versatile d10 or have a free hand to cast spells.

True, it does save an action on using both weapons.

[GlenSmash!]

True, it does save an action on using both weapons.

It's trickier going from sword to bow, though I find that scenario happens less often.

[Witty Username]

I would like to see a proper monk-caster gish. I actually like the way of four elements, but I would prefer a spell list and spell slots.

[Rukelnikov]

I would like to see a proper monk-caster gish. I actually like the way of four elements, but I would prefer a spell list and spell slots.

Wouldn't you prefer powers and pps for your monk?

[Man_Over_Game]

I would like to see a proper monk-caster gish. I actually like the way of four elements, but I would prefer a spell list and spell slots.

Does Bladesinger + Monk suit that concept?

If not, is that still true if the Monk's features used Intelligence instead of Wisdom?

[Witty Username]

Does Bladesinger + Monk suit that concept?

If not, is that still true if the Monk's features used Intelligence instead of Wisdom?

kind of, If monk keyed off of intelligence instead of wisdom I would be down for doing that. But I was thinking more like an eldritch knight version of a monk, maybe with some things from the enlightened fist from 3.5(like being able to use unarmed strikes for touch spells or spending spell slots for energy damage).
heck maybe something like bladesinger but instead of proficiency in martial weapons and armor, martial arts and unarmored defense would work.(no idea on how balanced that would be)

Edit: Sorry I didn't see your thing.

Wouldn't you prefer powers and pps for your monk?
I personally liked the idea of arcane monk more than psionic monk, maybe it should get soul-knife or something but I would like to see psionics leave playtest first before I think of anything major.

[Shuruke]

kind of, If monk keyed off of intelligence instead of wisdom I would be down for doing that. But I was thinking more like an eldritch knight version of a monk, maybe with some things from the enlightened fist from 3.5(like being able to use unarmed strikes for touch spells or spending spell slots for energy damage).
heck maybe something like bladesinger but instead of proficiency in martial weapons and armor, martial arts and unarmored defense would work.(no idea on how balanced that would be)

Edit: Sorry I didn't see your thing.

I personally liked the idea of arcane monk more than psionic monk, maybe it should get soul-knife or something but I would like to see psionics leave playtest first before I think of anything major.

Why not just have 4 ele monk be a 1/3 caster that can only take "elemental" druid/sorcerer spells

Wis is casting stat

Can convert ki to spell slots using below table and a bonus action

1st level slot 3 ki at 3rd monk level
2nd level slot 4 ki. 5th monk level
3rd level slot 5 ki. 9th monk level
4th level slot 6 ki. 13th monk level
5th level slot 7 ki 17th monk level
Note these are more expensive then sorcerer casting because ki comes back on a short rest


This is a mix of the current Kit table for upcasting that a 4 ele has (they can up cast at higher level before they learn spells for that level. )

And the flexible casting

I increased the ki by additional 1 due to now having 1/3 caster scaling. If u feel this is to restrictive you can change it back by minusing 1 from each number


My reasoning

Given standard adventure day a monk will have 3x level in ki as long as its all expended before rests

At level 3 they can use 1/3 of ki in order to have an additional slot (which is the equivalent of a 2nd level caster)


I don't feel like doing math for rest but should check out


If needed modify it based on group

Group I played a 4e in (without modifications) the dm gave me a ki version of second wind since they didn't grant short rests often

Ie bonus action gain back x ki

Tbh I didnt think I really needed it , but that might be because I was pretending to be a "one punch man." By putting all my ki into a fist of unbroken air or a stun and then fist of unbroken air next turn. Was pretty fun

[Man_Over_Game]

kind of, If monk keyed off of intelligence instead of wisdom I would be down for doing that. But I was thinking more like an eldritch knight version of a monk, maybe with some things from the enlightened fist from 3.5(like being able to use unarmed strikes for touch spells or spending spell slots for energy damage).
heck maybe something like bladesinger but instead of proficiency in martial weapons and armor, martial arts and unarmored defense would work.(no idea on how balanced that would be)


That's actually fairly balanced. A Bladesinger will always be a better caster than a martial, due to the importance of late game concentration spells (and the Bladesinger's benefits to Concentration spells). The only thing you'd have to watch out for is the AC, as AC synergizes well on Concentration casters.

Although I think it'd be better to work with the Eldritch Knight as a chassis and just copy it as a Monk subclass. Then make your Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows features updated, like replacing the line that states "Attack Action" with "Attack Action, or make an attack roll with a Cantrip,".

[DevilMcam]

I want to play a pact of the undying Aasimar blood hunter, but this is madness

[Archpaladin Zousha]

One thing I'd like to see is a Fighter with some Charisma, kinda like 4e's Warlord class. I know you can get a version of the Warlord that Robert Schwalb wrote up for his own publishing line, but I know some GMs will be all "official D&D books only, no items, Fox only, Final Destination."

I know there are Bard subclasses that normally could fill that niche, but I'd rather have a "Warlord" who is inspiring WITHOUT magic and isn't automatically assumed to be the comic relief. :smallannoyed:

I'd also like to play a Druid that doesn't depend on Wild Shape...I just really like using swords and stuff and I feel like if I don't use Wild Shape while playing a Druid it's a waste.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing I'd like to see is a Fighter with some Charisma, kinda like 4e's Warlord class. I know you can get a version of the Warlord that Robert Schwalb wrote up for his own publishing line, but I know some GMs will be all "official D&D books only, no items, Fox only, Final Destination."

I know there are Bard subclasses that normally could fill that niche, but I'd rather have a "Warlord" who is inspiring WITHOUT magic and isn't automatically assumed to be the comic relief. :smallannoyed:

I'd also like to play a Druid that doesn't depend on Wild Shape...I just really like using swords and stuff and I feel like if I don't use Wild Shape while playing a Druid it's a waste.

There is....kinda.


You could go Battle Master with Commander's Strike and Rally.

You could also go for the Purple Dragon Knight (also known as the Banneret) in the Sword Coast Adventure Guide. It does exactly what you're describing. The problem is, it's really bad. Like, REALLY bad.

On the Druid aspect...have you looked at the Nature Cleric?

[Witty Username]

How doable is force missile mage in 5e? Mage that is specialized in magic missile.

[Rukelnikov]

How doable is force missile mage in 5e? Mage that is specialized in magic missile.

Evoker does it pretty well, but aside from that there's not much more you can add to it.

[Man_Over_Game]

How doable is force missile mage in 5e? Mage that is specialized in magic missile.


Evoker does it pretty well, but aside from that there's not much more you can add to it.

To be honest, rightfully so. Magic Missile is an automatic success, has ludicrous range, and it uses lots of small dice (meaning that even the damage it deals is barely random). Lastly, it doesn't so anything beyond dealing damage, so it's a fairly boring spell when considering the end result.

It's good as a tactical choice, because it has no risk. However, risk is what makes the game interesting and dramatic.

I'd much rather see someone make an Eldritch Blast build than a Magic Missile build. Sure, it has a lot more synergies, but at least it's doing a lot more than just spending a slot to deal generic damage (It misses, it requires different resources and investments, it can knock back, and it interacts with different spells and abilities on both sides).

I think MM is fine as a niche solution, but that's all it should be.

[Man_Over_Game]

On why we have Warlords and armored Druids


On why we have a "force blaster", and why it shouldn't be a Magic Missile blaster

I think it's important to recognize what we have, not to impede new content or ideas, but so that we know what we're aiming for. Recognize what we're capable of doing now, to figure out why that DOESN'T fit what we're looking for.

In the example of a Warlord (which seems really popular), why DOESN'T the Battle Master or Banneret work? Why DOESN'T a Nature Cleric fit many people's idea of a fighting Druid? Expanding on that might be enough to justify new archetypes, subclasses or features that 5e has something that suits everyone.

[Rukelnikov]

I think it's important to recognize what we have, not to impede new content or ideas, but so that we know what we're aiming for. Recognize what we're capable of doing now, to figure out why that DOESN'T fit what we're looking for.

In the example of a Warlord (which seems really popular), why DOESN'T the Battle Master or Banneret work? Why DOESN'T a Nature Cleric fit many people's idea of a fighting Druid? Expanding on that might be enough to justify new archetypes, subclasses or features that 5e has something that suits everyone.

Pst... you are talking to yourself... having said that:

Warlord is perfectly doable, Order Cleric, Bard, and Purple Dragon Knight or Battlemaster all have aspects of a Warlord, none of those makes a perfect one solo, but multiclassing some of those does the trick.

If I want a fighting Druid I play a Druid, why would I play a Nature Cleric in that case? Anyways, Clerics and Druids are very different for me, mainly because while Druids do get their power from some entity, its a somewhat vague one, the earth, nature, whatever, but its not Chauntea or Silvanus, like in the case of a Cleric. And there's also the major difference of the Cleric worshipping his deity, Druids don't worship nature, they are part of it.

So totally different fluffs between those two.

[Man_Over_Game]

Pst... you are talking to yourself... having said that:

Warlord is perfectly doable, Order Cleric, Bard, and Purple Dragon Knight or Battlemaster all have aspects of a Warlord, none of those makes a perfect one solo, but multiclassing some of those does the trick.

If I want a fighting Druid I play a Druid, why would I play a Nature Cleric in that case? Anyways, Clerics and Druids are very different for me, mainly because while Druids do get their power from some entity, its a somewhat vague one, the earth, nature, whatever, but its not Chauntea or Silvanus, like in the case of a Cleric. And there's also the major difference of the Cleric worshipping his deity, Druids don't worship nature, they are part of it.

So totally different fluffs between those two.

Lol, yeah. I didn't necessarily mean that as responses to myself, I mostly meant those to clarify why I'm being a "Negative Nancy" about everyone's wants.

I agree with most of what you said. I'm a bit more open, narratively (so if someone doesn't want to worship a god as a Cleric, they don't have to), which opens up a lot of options, but I just see those two archetypes as things that people are constantly looking for.

[Rukelnikov]

Lol, yeah. I didn't necessarily mean that as responses to myself, I mostly meant those to clarify why I'm being a "Negative Nancy" about everyone's wants.

I agree with most of what you said. I'm a bit more open, narratively (so if someone doesn't want to worship a god as a Cleric, they don't have to), which opens up a lot of options, but I just see those two archetypes as things that people are constantly looking for.

I see a lot of homebrew Druids with Extra Attack, so yeah, there's clearly a lot of people that want one.

However, no one asks for a fighting Sorcerer, and there's no printed subclass for one, and that's cause if they want a fighting Sorcerer they MC with Lock or Pally, anyone who wants to play a fighting Druid could just go Druid and MC with Ranger, Fighter or Monk, specially with the new Spore Druid which grants bonus damage, temp HP, and a damage reaction from lvl 2.

[Man_Over_Game]

I see a lot of homebrew Druids with Extra Attack, so yeah, there's clearly a lot of people that want one.

However, no one asks for a fighting Sorcerer, and there's no printed subclass for one, and that's cause if they want a fighting Sorcerer they MC with Lock or Pally, anyone who wants to play a fighting Druid could just go Druid and MC with Ranger, Fighter or Monk, specially with the new Spore Druid which grants bonus damage, temp HP, and a damage reaction from lvl 2.

Personally, I'd really like a melee Sorcerer. While the Draconic Bloodline is a step in the right direction, it's hard to combine the defensive traits with the elemental focus in a way that works together as a melee caster.