Question on: Divination Portent, used by NPCs(bad guys)

[Sindal]

Hi yall.

So recenlty i started dming one of my first homebrewy centered campaigns.
but I wanted how others would do this:

-Would you give some sort of tell for a player, if an npc or antagonist had used portent on them to change their roll?-


Extra context:
1)I had a divination wizard in the campaign, who's acting as a sort of secret agent for a 'questionable' organisation.
2) I ask because the way portent technically works is that the other dice roll didn't even happen, and the divination wizard already knows the outcome somehow. In universe, there wouldn't realy be any reason for there to be any indication. It's just what's happening
3) This doesn't really sit with mechanics though. If someone rolled a 20 on insight with a really high insight and STILL somehow failed, they would be like 'WTF HOW. IS HE EVEN MORTAL?!'. And at that point you can't really say 'somehow, your roll changed' because that raises mega red flags. If you were trying to hide something using portent the players would basically be suspect as ****.

What I did, at the time:
I told the player who had been portented (twice, because that player didn't give up) "You get a weird sensation for a second, almost like de javu" before carrying on with response.

How would you guys rule it?
Would you just describe it as if they had failed? (or passed, if the portent works in their favor)
Or does giving 'a tiny hint' seem logical. Enough to make them feel 'eeehhh' but not enough to actually explain what happened.
Or would you just say "That guy portent'd you son"

Appreciate the feedback =)

[noob]

Why do you give player character tools to monsters?
It is not appropriate: imagine the players were ambushed in a street by 4 npc divination wizards which just got portent + a wizard with SOL: the adventurers would surely lose and yet it would probably be considered as an easy encounter at high level.
There is powers that simply should not be in the hands of npcs.

[JNAProductions]

Why do you give player character tools to monsters?
It is not appropriate: imagine the players were ambushed in a street by 4 level 1 npc divination wizards + a wizard with SOL: the adventurers would surely lose.
There is powers that simply should not be in the hands of npcs.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. While I certainly agree that that exact situation is not nice, is it any different from, say, a DM dropping a CR 18 monster that wants to kill the level 3 party?

Portent should be used sparingly-it's not something every enemy should have, and players should generally have some forewarning about it. I would, if using it with a boss or lieutenant or something, tell the players exactly what happened. ESPECIALLY since Portent technically stops you from rolling in the first place-it replaces the need for a roll.

So, I'd say something like this, in the circumstance where, say, the BBEG Wizard uses Portent to give you a 3 on your save for Polymorph.

"In your weakest moment, the exact instance where your guard is down, the mage strikes, and your mind is helpless to resist. You find your body shifting, changing, as well as your mind, leaving you a turtle for all to see."

The player would, almost certainly, ask why they didn't get a save, to which the appropriate response is:

"Portent."

Now, one thing I would do is openly roll the Portent dice, at some point beforehand. Don't tell them why-just say "I'm going to roll two d20s, and mark down the results. Okay?"

Obviously, if the players are forewarned about the bad guy being a Divination Wizard, they'll probably guess it's Portent dice, in which case, just ask them kindly to not metagame with their knowledge.

[Frozenstep]

Portent does not take an existing roll and change it, it replaces the roll entirely. Do not even let the player roll for whatever is being portent'd. Maybe allow them to roll insight or investigation to figure out something supernatural happened that controlled the outcome. Also remember some features can get around portent if they allow a character to reroll a failed save/check.

[JoeJ]

Portent does not take an existing roll and change it, it replaces the roll entirely. Do not even let the player roll for whatever is being portent'd. Maybe allow them to roll insight or investigation to figure out something supernatural happened that controlled the outcome. Also remember some features can get around portent if they allow a character to reroll a failed save/check.

That's PC portent. Portent on the NPC diviner in VGtM allows that diviner to roll a d20 and choose whether or not to use the result to replace an attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by a creature the diviner can see (or itself). The ability recharges every time the diviner casts a divination spell of 1st level or higher.

[Sindal]

That's PC portent. Portent on the NPC diviner in VGtM allows that diviner to roll a d20 and choose whether or not to use the result to replace an attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by a creature the diviner can see (or itself). The ability recharges every time the diviner casts a divination spell of 1st level or higher.

Oh hey

I didn't actually know there was a diviner monster stat.
That makes using this npc alot easier x) (i'll have to nerf his spellcasting down but, still, Convenient)

[MaxWilson]

How would you guys rule it?
Would you just describe it as if they had failed? (or passed, if the portent works in their favor)
Or does giving 'a tiny hint' seem logical. Enough to make them feel 'eeehhh' but not enough to actually explain what happened.
Or would you just say "That guy portent'd you son"

Appreciate the feedback =)

The best thing about Portent is you don't even have to be there to use it. You can use it on anyone you can see, even though a familiar's sight, clairvoyance, scrying, etc.

I would basically just put the die in front of them, with the chosen number facing up, and say, "This is your roll. Yep, a Portent is involved," and I'd give them as much info as I could in-character about who their hidden (Scrying?) nemesis is and what they did to get on his bad side and how they can fix it. If they're being viewed through a Project Image or a homonculus I would give them that information as well. In general I look for excuses to give players as much information as possible so they can make informed choices, if I can do it without compromising the rules of the gameworld. (Sometimes this involves rewriting the rules of the gameworld for e.g. scrying magic, but in 5E's case IIRC scrying magic is already detectable by the target via saving throw so no rewriting required.)

[Man_Over_Game]

The best thing about Portent is you don't even have to be there to use it. You can use it on anyone you can see, even though a familiar's sight, clairvoyance, scrying, etc.

I would basically just put the die in front of them, with the chosen number facing up, and say, "This is your roll. Yep, a Portent is involved," and I'd give them as much info as I could in-character about who their hidden (Scrying?) nemesis is and what they did to get on his bad side and how they can fix it. If they're being viewed through a Project Image or a homonculus I would give them that information as well. In general I look for excuses to give players as much information as possible so they can make informed choices, if I can do it without compromising the rules of the gameworld. (Sometimes this involves rewriting the rules of the gameworld for e.g. scrying magic, but in 5E's case IIRC scrying magic is already detectable by the target via saving throw so no rewriting required.)

Hmm... Interesting part of the Scry spell is that if someone knows they're being Scried upon, they can opt to have the spell automatically fail. The Scryer could force a roll to happen using Portent, but then he'd have to sacrifice his ability to Scry upon the victim. It's a fun little conundrum.

[MaxWilson]

Hmm... Interesting part of the Scry spell is that if someone knows they're being Scried upon, they can opt to have the spell automatically fail. The Scryer could force a roll to happen using Portent, but then he'd have to sacrifice his ability to Scry upon the victim. It's a fun little conundrum.

I think you've got that backwards--they can opt to automatically fail their saving throw, not to auto-succeed.

"If a target knows you're casting this spell, it can fail the saving throw voluntarily if it wants to be observed."

But yes, there is an interesting little dilemma there for a hostile Diviner, due to the saving throw. It can of course avoid the dilemma by scrying on its own minions instead of directly on the PCs; or it can split the difference and first try to scry on the PCs and then on its own minions only if all the PCs save successfully. (Or it can use Project Image, maybe even Clairvoyance if it's close enough.)

I have this idea in the back of my mind for an archnemesis who really isn't anything special in combat (17th level Diviner with okay stats, no optimization, maybe CR 8-equivalent if you do the math) but still functions as a strategic nemesis for a high-level party by virtue of things like remote hostile Portent spells and going around Wishing for Resurrection on bad guys (like Adult Dragons) that the PCs think they have dealt with already, permanently, and putting those bad guys in touch with each other via Teleport. You thought that Adult White Dragon was bad the first time, now try it when he's ambushing you at night when only one PC is awake on watch, with three Mind Flayer buddies and three hostile Portent dice on standby! And just for kicks, there's a Seeming spell to make the white dragon look blue, and the Mind Flayers look like Death Knights.

The biggest problem is thinking through how you'd telegraph to the players what was really going on so that it felt like a meaningful interaction instead of just an unfair "Splat! suddenly you die," which probably involves thinking through what the archnemesis really wants and what these various bad guys want too. (A MacGuffin maybe? If the PCs TPK, do they get Resurrected from the dead too, sans magic items that were taken by their killers, by yet another third party?)

Anyway, point is that remote hostile Portent is a potentially very annoying thing to fight against.