Why did Greg kill Zz'dtri rather than turning him into a vampire?

[Aquillion]

A vamped Zz'dtri would have been enslaved to Greg until / unless Greg decided to release him. This much everyone seems to know, so he wouldn't have to kill Zz'dtri to hide how vampirism actually works or anything.

Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel and wouldn't necessarily be loyal, but... he doesn't have to release him. And more importantly, Z is a high-level wizard who can cast Teleport.

Using this, Greg can go straight to the Godsmoot, completely ignoring any interactions with the Order and avoiding them ever learning about his plan. And if / when things do go down, Greg will have a high-level wizard capable of casting Teleport on his side.

Alternatively, he could bring the enslaved Vampire Zz'dtri with him. The order might not be 100% happy about it, but they mind-controlled members of the Linear Guild before, and the benefits of having another wizard are obvious, so it wouldn't be hard for Greg to convince them.

[Morty]

For one thing, it would make his "I'm just the same old Durkon who doesn't want to be a vampire" act harder. Sure, he might have been able to sell it, but he seems to have decided not to take the risk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For one thing, it would make his "I'm just the same old Durkon who doesn't want to be a vampire" act harder. Sure, he might have been able to sell it, but he seems to have decided not to take the risk.

Aquillion's point is that, with access to teleport, Greg wouldn't have needed to interact with the order at all.

So, headcanon: the moot was protected with anti-teleport defences, and you had to make your way there via more conventional methods (leaving via teleport was fine). For that, he needed non-vampire companions. Which then explains why having a minion wasn't going to work, since Durkon wouldn't have.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Greg had only a few seconds to decide what to do; he opted to go with the plan "convince the Order I'm Durkon and manipulate them into getting me to the Godsmoot," not the plan "reveal immediately that I'm not Durkon* and count on Zz'dtri's magic to get me to the Godsmoot." And frankly, it's far from clear that he was wrong to do so; if anyone--Nale, the Vector Legion, the Order--had destroyed Zz'dtri between Greg draining Zz'dtri's blood and Vampire Zz'dtri casting a spell he might well have not had any more of prepared that day, Greg's entire scheme would have died with Zz'dtri's destruction.

*Note that I find the assertion that Greg could have come back to the Order and said, "I'm Durkon and this is my undead slave, Zz'dtri" and had anyone at all believe that he was Durkon for one second downright preposterous. Roy's excessive tolerance for Belkar and Vaarsuvius' evil aside, he's not stupid enough to think Durkon's moral sense is anything like theirs.

[Aquillion]

He could also have sent Zz'dtri elsewhere and kept him in reserve without revealing him to the order. There's just not much disadvantage to having a vampire cleric.

(Perhaps he was afraid that Nale would escape and let the order know he vamped Z, though? Hence why he bothered to stay in character in that scene at all.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He could also have sent Zz'dtri elsewhere and kept him in reserve without revealing him to the order. There's just not much disadvantage to having a vampire cleric.

(Perhaps he was afraid that Nale would escape and let the order know he vamped Z, though? Hence why he bothered to stay in character in that scene at all.)

Actually, another reason: you can't easily keep a vampire unalive in the middle of a desert, and Greg's only means of achieving it, the staff, might have had limited charges he needed to be very careful about. He couldn't just use them and risk running out when he might need them.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

How fast could Durkon* cast Protection from the Sun after casting Vampire acceleration vs how fast does it take for a vampire of Z's level to burn in the sun? And can Protection from the Sun be cast on a corpse/not yet risen vampire?

[Morty]

To add on what Kish said, Z had already cast Teleport that day. He could be reasonably expected to prepare it once, but twice is a riskier bet. Also, the vampire spirit inhabiting Zz'dtri's body would never have been to the Godsmoot's location... but then, the comic doesn't really concern itself much with the mishap chance when teleporting into an unfamiliar location.

[Goblin_Priest]

Actually, another reason: you can't easily keep a vampire unalive in the middle of a desert, and Greg's only means of achieving it, the staff, might have had limited charges he needed to be very careful about. He couldn't just use them and risk running out when he might need them.

Grey Wolf

Yea, vamping him involves killing him a specific (slow and inconvenient) way, then using the staff to vamp him quicker, then using the staff to shield him before the sun scorches him.

Might just not have been feasible at that time.

[Peelee]

Aquillion's point is that, with access to teleport, Greg wouldn't have needed to interact with the order at all.

So, headcanon: the moot was protected with anti-teleport defences, and you had to make your way there via more conventional methods (leaving via teleport was fine). For that, he needed non-vampire companions. Which then explains why having a minion wasn't going to work, since Durkon wouldn't have.

Grey Wolf

I'd advise a different headcanon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), but you, Aquillion, and Kish have all offered other viable reasons already anyway.

[Lacuna Caster]

Using this, Greg can go straight to the Godsmoot, completely ignoring any interactions with the Order and avoiding them ever learning about his plan. And if / when things do go down, Greg will have a high-level wizard capable of casting Teleport on his side.

I'd advise a different headcanon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), but you, Aquillion, and Kish have all offered other viable reasons already anyway.
Oh, hey another strip referencing Wind Walk. Neat.

Regardless of the pros and cons to enslaving Zz'dtri, Greg can cast Wind Walk himself from the standard cleric spell list, so he doesn't really need Teleport anyway. The mechane would have be a great deal faster than 60 mph to be worth the bother of commandeering.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, hey another strip referencing Wind Walk. Neat.

Regardless of the pros and cons to enslaving Zz'dtri, Greg can cast Wind Walk himself from the standard cleric spell list, so he doesn't really need Teleport anyway. The mechane would have be a great deal faster than 60 mph to be worth the bother of commandeering.

Given that wind walk would not be fast enough to get to the godsmoot in time as per this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), and the Mechane turned out to have been, the only conclusion is that yes, the Mechane is significantly faster than 60 mph.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Oh, hey another strip referencing Wind Walk. Neat.

Regardless of the pros and cons to enslaving Zz'dtri, Greg can cast Wind Walk himself from the standard cleric spell list, so he doesn't really need Teleport anyway. The mechane would have be a great deal faster than 60 mph to be worth the bother of commandeering.
A. Wind Walk isn't that fast. They note that, moving from Tinkertown, it's not fast enough to get them there before The Moot starts.
B. In the words of one of Rich's bigger creative influences, JMS, when asked about the exact speed of a ship in his show Babylon 5, "It moves at the speed of plot".Most ships in fiction do,really. The Mechance, however, does so quite literally. It is exactly as fast as it needs to be for the plot to proceed, and, thus, most likely, JUST fast enough to get Durkon* to The Godsmoot RIGHT as the voting is about to start, as it indeed did.

Given that wind walk would not be fast enough to get to the godsmoot in time as per this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), and the Mechane turned out to have been, the only conclusion is that yes, the Mechane is significantly faster than 60 mph.

Grey Wolf
Specifically, it moves at the exact speed needed to get to the destination of plot advancement right before the interesting part goes down.

[Jasdoif]

Given that wind walk would not be fast enough to get to the godsmoot in time as per this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html), and the Mechane turned out to have been, the only conclusion is that yes, the Mechane is significantly faster than 60 mph.For the record: A standard scroll of wind walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) would have the minimum caster level for casting it from the cleric list, which is caster level 11; so it'd last 11 hours...so with HPoH's estimate of 830 miles, that'd leave 170 miles to cover after it expired.

So it's unclear whether it's the speed and/or the duration that's the limiting factor for the scroll...although neither of those appear to limit the Mechane in the traditional sense.

[Fyraltari]

For the record: A standard scroll of wind walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm) would have the minimum caster level for casting it from the cleric list, which is caster level 11; so it'd last 11 hours...so with HPoH's estimate of 830 miles, that'd leave 170 miles to cover after it expired.

So it's unclear whether it's the speed and/or the duration that's the limiting factor for the scroll...although neither of those appear to limit the Mechane in the traditional sense.
Elan and Durkon crossed the Ocean with Wind Walk to reached Greysky City, so I don't think distance is a factor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Elan and Durkon crossed the Ocean with Wind Walk to reached Greysky City, so I don't think distance is a factor.

Alternatively, the continents are not that far apart. It could be like Europe-Africa far, rather than Asia-America far.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Elan and Durkon crossed the Ocean with Wind Walk to reached Greysky City, so I don't think distance is a factor.Durkon can cast the spell himself...including casting it again before it expires. A scroll is single-use.

[Lacuna Caster]

Elan and Durkon crossed the Ocean with Wind Walk to reached Greysky City, so I don't think distance is a factor.
Yeah, a high-level cleric can have multiple castings ready per day, and Durkula doesn't need to sleep, so in theory he can travel about 1400 miles per day under his own power.

[Fyraltari]

Alternatively, the continents are not that far apart. It could be like Europe-Africa far, rather than Asia-America far.

Grey Wolf

These distances vary considerably depending on where you are on the continents. The Strait of Bering is 83km wide and the strait of Gibraltar is 14 km wide but that doesn't help some going from Greece to Egypt or from Peru to Vietnam.

They look pretty far apart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) relative to continent size, though.

[facw]

Alternatively, the continents are not that far apart. It could be like Europe-Africa far, rather than Asia-America far.

Furthermore, were they even crossing between continents? They had been searching around the southern continent for allies, but were we ever told where they were looking for possible new homes? V teleported the fleet to the island off the Western Continent, but that happened after Elan and Durkon had left. It's entirely possible they were not far from the coast to begin with (unless I am forgetting something, which is certainly possible).

[Fyraltari]

Furthermore, were they even crossing between continents? They had been searching around the southern continent for allies, but were we ever told where they were looking for possible new homes? V teleported the fleet to the island off the Western Continent, but that happened after Elan and Durkon had left. It's entirely possible they were not far from the coast to begin with (unless I am forgetting something, which is certainly possible).

Oh right, I got the order of things backward. Yeah, the fleet was probably still near the Southern Continent.

[martianmister]

HPoH is still lawful like Durkon, he could see it as avenging the murderers of his "master."

[Aveline]

HPoH is still lawful like Durkon, he could see it as avenging the murderers of his "master."

Or as potential nuisances to his mistress's plan.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or as potential nuisances to his mistress's plan.

Another possibility is that Durkula grabbed at a Durkon-memory of Z and Nale, and arrived at:
But tha two o' ye're still tha same old ***** (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html).
With the accent noted, at this point there is likely a lot of Durkon to draw from as Durkula settles into he new host.

With Malack fresh dead, the Occam's Razor approach argues that Greg harnessed his inner Durkon for that moment since they were both rivals, and had just offed his master.

[ijuinkun]

Given that wind walk would not be fast enough to get to the godsmoot in time as per 0987, and the Mechane turned out to have been, the only conclusion is that yes, the Mechane is significantly faster than 60 mph.

Grey Wolf

Real life airships top out at between 120 and 150 miles per hour, the main limiting factor being air resistance--when you get much above that, it becomes more energy efficient per unit cargo to use an airplane instead.

[woweedd]

Real life airships top out at between 120 and 150 miles per hour, the main limiting factor being air resistance--when you get much above that, it becomes more energy efficient per unit cargo to use an airplane instead.
But, again, The Mechane’s speed is just “plot”, so...

[paladinofshojo]

This also brings up another good point, why didn’t Greg just join the Linear guild instead of throwing his lot with the Order of the Stick who were in a pit and surrounded by soldiers?

[Caerulea]

This also brings up another good point, why didn’t Greg just join the Linear guild instead of throwing his lot with the Order of the Stick who were in a pit and surrounded by soldiers?
Nale is less likely to want to go to the godsmoot, I suspect. (Also dead, but he wouldn't know about that). He would also have some overly complex plan that would be foiled at the last minute by the Order anyway, so not much there.

—Caerulea

[Rrmcklin]

This also brings up another good point, why didn’t Greg just join the Linear guild instead of throwing his lot with the Order of the Stick who were in a pit and surrounded by soldiers?

They weren't surrounded by soldiers until after he killed Zz'dtri, and it's not like the Linear Guild were in the best of shape either.

[Lacuna Caster]

Real life airships top out at between 120 and 150 miles per hour, the main limiting factor being air resistance--when you get much above that, it becomes more energy efficient per unit cargo to use an airplane instead.
Woah. Where are these numbers coming from?

[Kish]

Also, Durkon might have had buried resentment toward the amount of running away involved in Roy's leadership and did have buried resentment toward the dwarven people...but respect for or willingness to follow Nale? Forget it. No more on his worst day than on his best.

[The Patterner]

Woah. Where are these numbers coming from?

I think it might be a mix-up regarding miles and kilometers, the top speed of Hinderburg was about 135 km, so roughly 80-85 mph.

Still a lot faster then I expected.

Hinderburg also had a lift capacity of 220 tones, half of wich was used to lift itself, the remaining for cargo and people.

I'm actually quite impressed by this... :smallamused:

[Lacuna Caster]

I think it might be a mix-up regarding miles and kilometers, the top speed of Hinderburg was about 135 km, so roughly 80-85 mph.
Yeah, I read up on the Hindenburg, which surprised me as well, but 150 mph seems very high.

(Not that magitech airships in a universe with rather different physical laws would necessarily be constrained to the same top speeds, but it's useful to have a ballpark figure.)

[NoHaxJustPi]

80-85 mph is still 20-25 mph faster than Wind Walk, and that 80-85 mph isn’t in a universe that has magic, meaning that in the OOTS universe, there could easily be airships that are much faster because of magically enhanced engines or similar. (And the Mechane has the power to move at the speed of plot)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

80-85 mph is still 20-25 mph faster than Wind Walk, and that 80-85 mph isn’t in a universe that has magic, meaning that in the OOTS universe, there could easily be airships that are much faster because of magically enhanced engines or similar. (And the Mechane has the power to move at the speed of plot)

The Mechane canonically (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html) flies because of physics, but can only get off the ground because of magic - i.e. it's not enchanted with a permanent fly spell, but it is enchanted with a "make the hull lighter" spell, which presumably means it gets a lot better ROI from its engines than RL blimps.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Wouldn't it also have a lot more drag than RL blimps, due to the large gondola?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't it also have a lot more drag than RL blimps, due to the large gondola?

Hard to tell. The gondola might be the same size, and simply have a smaller bag, which'd mean it actually has less drag but a) I know very little of the forces involved and 2) Rich probably doesn't either. Trying to calculate what its top speed is beyond the canonical "faster than windwalk" is going to be futile.

Grey Wolf

[Synesthesy]

My personal headcanon is that yes, vamping Zz'dtri would have been a better choice. Hey, even joining the Linear Guild could have been a better choice then trying to trick Roy.

BUT the whole plan is not Greg's idea, it's Hel's. Hel did know about Durkon's companions, and she told Greg a basic plan: stick with your host's friends, tell them that you want to be resurrected, then find a way to make them escort you to the Pinnacle Mountain for find a high level cleric, then cast the vote and plane shift away. Obviously, Hel had the idea, but the details were made by Greg himself.

With this in mind and only Durkon's memory to react to the world, the newborn Gred in few second (while he was still and Nale was talking) decided that Nale was a moron, that Z wasn't important enough, and acted the way he acted.


PS: Greg said that Zenith Pick was about 830 miles away from there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)

This means that at 60 mph you need nearly 14 hours to go there. Does the spell last long enough? If not we have the answer.
They traveled the whole night with the ship, at 80 mph you need only 10 hours, maybe it was enough.

[Peelee]

BUT the whole plan is not Greg's idea, it's Hel's. Hel did know about Durkon's companions, and she told Greg a basic plan: stick with your host's friends, tell them that you want to be resurrected, then find a way to make them escort you to the Pinnacle Mountain for find a high level cleric, then cast the vote and plane shift away. Obviously, Hel had the idea, but the details were made by Greg himself.

The last sentence contradicts the rest. We don't know how much Hel told the vampire; it could have been as simple as "get to the Godsmoot at Zenith Peak." All the details, like who to ally with and how to get there, could have been his. We don't know, and in the absence of any indication, I choose to believe that the vamp only had the goal and called all the plays himself.

[woweedd]

The Mechane canonically (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html) flies because of physics, but can only get off the ground because of magic - i.e. it's not enchanted with a permanent fly spell, but it is enchanted with a "make the hull lighter" spell, which presumably means it gets a lot better ROI from its engines than RL blimps.

Grey Wolf

As I’ve said, The Mechane’s speed is, quite literally, plot-defined.

[Ruck]

My personal headcanon is that yes, vamping Zz'dtri would have been a better choice. Hey, even joining the Linear Guild could have been a better choice then trying to trick Roy.

Why, though? I think people have made pretty solid cases why not; I haven't heard a good one yet for why.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, a high-level cleric can have multiple castings ready per day, and Durkula doesn't need to sleep, so in theory he can travel about 1400 miles per day under his own power.Wouldn't even need that, necessarily....plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) to another plane, plane shift back to the Material Plane aiming for Zenith Peak, wind walk the 5-500 miles to actually get to Zenith Peak.

I presume HPoH's valuing Roy as an escort (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0982.html) is why he didn't go to the Godsmoot on his own...and by extension, why vampirizing Zz'dtri would have undercut his goals.

[D.One]

I've mostly seem here people defending this decision (to not vamp Zz'dtri) as either a mistake from Greg, or a logical decision given his plans, or else an action (that might or not be a mistake) decided due to some emotional state in his liberation from Malack's control.

Let me add another interpretation, that may or may not be the correct one:

He did it for the evulz (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz).

You see, Greg is not beyond gloating (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html). In fact, he goes out of his way for a good villain gloat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html). And he's cruel about it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

And when he was over an unconscious Zz'dtri, Nale told him to "not dare drink his blood", to which he replied, with clear malevolent delight "Dinnae want ye to get a free vampire wizard outta this, aye?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) and then snaps Z's neck.

So, I wouldn't put beyond Greg to have done that just to be cruel.

[Fyraltari]

I've mostly seem here people defending this decision (to not vamp Zz'dtri) as either a mistake from Greg, or a logical decision given his plans, or else an action (that might or not be a mistake) decided due to some emotional state in his liberation from Malack's control.

Let me add another interpretation, that may or may not be the correct one:

He did it for the evulz (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz).

You see, Greg is not beyond gloating (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1011.html). In fact, he goes out of his way for a good villain gloat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html). And he's cruel about it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

And when he was over an unconscious Zz'dtri, Nale told him to "not dare drink his blood", to which he replied, with clear malevolent delight "Dinnae want ye to get a free vampire wizard outta this, aye?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) and then snaps Z's neck.

So, I wouldn't put beyond Greg to have done that just to be cruel.

But then wouldn't it have been more cruel to actually go and drink his blood to make a vampire out of Z?

[Peelee]

Why, though? I think people have made pretty solid cases why not; I haven't heard a good one yet for why.

Well, let's be fair here, access to Teleport is a good reason. That said access would have had potential downsides or pratfalls doesn't make it not a good reason, it just makes it a potentially dangerous choice.

[D.One]

But then wouldn't it have been more cruel to actually go and drink his blood to make a vampire out of Z?

Maybe. I don't consider myself cruel, thus I can't really evaluate which evulz evilizes most... :smallamused:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe it's related to the Truth Circle? He needs someone that honestly believes Greg's lies to be allowed in? Anyone with ulterior motives would spoil the plan, kind of thing?

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

But then wouldn't it have been more cruel to actually go and drink his blood to make a vampire out of Z?

Depending on Durkula's ability to keep enthralling, um, Z Prime, that could be an even greater nuisance than leaving a Teleport-capable wizard alive to interfere.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe. I don't consider myself cruel, thus I can't really evaluate which evulz evilizes most... :smallamused:
I mean that's the one thing Nale tol him not to do.

Maybe it's related to the Truth Circle? He needs someone that honestly believes Greg's lies to be allowed in? Anyone with ulterior motives would spoil the plan, kind of thing?

Grey Wolf
But he didn't lie to Gontor. All he would have to say would be what he told him, but out loud "I am Durkon Thundershield, high priest of Hel, come for the Moot and these are my bodyguards".

Depending on Durkula's ability to keep enthralling, um, Z Prime, that could be an even greater nuisance than leaving a Teleport-capable wizard alive to interfere.
Maybe.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Would Z even know enough about the location to teleport there?

[Aveline]

Would Z even know enough about the location to teleport there?

Probably not, but every variable eliminated increases the chances of his mistress's plans succeeding.

[D.One]

On an unrelated side note, I wonder which was Z's worst day...

[Aveline]

On an unrelated side note, I wonder which was Z's worst day...

I would have fun speculating that it was the Holy Word uttered by Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html), causing him to feel what Durkon describes in panel 7 of #1151 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html).

[Fyraltari]

I would have fun speculating that it was the Holy Word uttered by Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html), causing him to feel what Durkon describes in panel 7 of #1151 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html).

It doesn't seem to do that, though (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm).

[Riftwolf]

On an unrelated side note, I wonder which was Z's worst day...

Having to do a class presentation, being marked on elocution and thorough answers.

[Aveline]

It doesn't seem to do that, though (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm).

Fine, ruin all my fun with the system rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

Having to do a class presentation, being marked on elocution and thorough answers. this, and you made me chuckle. :smallcool:

[LordCdrMilitant]

Some thoughts on Mechane...

Assuming the hull is lighter, it would achieve greater acceleration, but would not meaningfully improve it's top speed.

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.

[Synesthesy]

Why, though? I think people have made pretty solid cases why not; I haven't heard a good one yet for why.

First, because sticking with the Order meant (well, is meaning) the failure of the plan, so it wasn't a wise idea at all :P


Vamp Z and then trying to kill/vamp Nale, who would have escaped, would have meant for Greg to have access to a wizard thrall instead of the Order. If Greg can cast Malak's high speed vampirization and protection from sunlight with the staff, Z'drula would have awaken instantly. They don't need to teleport right now, they only need to hide from Tarquin and the Order. It's something I bet they can do: the Order had something more urgent to do (survive Tarquin's army), they would have done it even without Greg's help, and they would have run away with Julio (and Julio would have come earlier, maybe: the Mechane come exactly when it needs to come). The Order go away making plans how to save Durkon, but they still need to go away.
At dusk Greg prepares his spell, Z'drula too, then teleport, and pop the High Priest of Hel come at the Moot! I think he should hide until the last vote has been cast, so no god will be influenced by the presence of Hel. Then procede the plan to influence the vote of the Council of Clans, but with none trying to stop you (Nale is dead, the Order doesn't know anything about the plan). The world is destroyed, Xykon is dead, Eugene enters the afterlife, Roy is angry, the Oracle was right that Belkar would die but Elan doesn't get his happy ending.


Instead, accepting Nale's offer could have helped too. First, Nale would not have run on his father, so he is still alive and going away (Tarquin was after Elan, not after Nale, and the desert is still big enough to hide for Nale).
You need to lie a lot less to Nale, as Nale has no problem with a priest of Hel. Greg would have to trick Nale into going to Zenith Peak, but tricking Nale is easy thing: you must only offer him something powerfull and a way to finally kill Elan. Then teleport and pop, everything like above, only that Nale would try to fight Greg for having tricked him. This time Greg miss a teleport Orb, so they need to wind walk or something else to Firmament, then go inside losing time, but whatever, I think they'd find a way. Nale would pop, but his team isn't strong enough to defeat the vampires, as neither the Order was. Then, even if Durkon was able to break Greg and kill the vampire, none would have been there to resurrect him, and the Ex-Exarch is free to continue the plan. Boom, the world end again.


Obviously both tale aren't perfect, but we are talking about personal headcanon, right?

[hroþila]

Instead, accepting Nale's offer could have helped too. First, Nale would not have run on his father, so he is still alive and going away (Tarquin was after Elan, not after Nale, and the desert is still big enough to hide for Nale).
You need to lie a lot less to Nale, as Nale has no problem with a priest of Hel. Greg would have to trick Nale into going to Zenith Peak, but tricking Nale is easy thing: you must only offer him something powerfull and a way to finally kill Elan. Then teleport and pop, everything like above, only that Nale would try to fight Greg for having tricked him. This time Greg miss a teleport Orb, so they need to wind walk or something else to Firmament, then go inside losing time, but whatever, I think they'd find a way. Nale would pop, but his team isn't strong enough to defeat the vampires, as neither the Order was. Then, even if Durkon was able to break Greg and kill the vampire, none would have been there to resurrect him, and the Ex-Exarch is free to continue the plan. Boom, the world end again.


Obviously both tale aren't perfect, but we are talking about personal headcanon, right?
If that's how it went down, I could see Nale realizing his team is not strong enough, contacting the Order and teaming up with them to stop the vampires. If the Order still got the orb in this alternate universe, they could be there immediately. This probably has more to do with narrative forces than with Nale's personality, but I think it would still work.

[Lacuna Caster]

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.
A lighter hull means you can carry more fuel and attach more or bigger engines & propellors for more thrust. I'm guessing that has some impact on top speed.

[The Patterner]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

I feel I don't have anything more to add to this conversation other than things about airships, because airships are cool...

:smallcool:

[Peelee]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

Imean, even a brick will fly if it's going fast enough, but I'd call your proposal more of a rocket than anything (I don't know how their engines work, but even steam engines are combustion).

[Synesthesy]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

I feel I don't have anything more to add to this conversation other than things about airships, because airships are cool...

:smallcool:


Imean, even a brick will fly if it's going fast enough, but I'd call your proposal more of a rocket than anything (I don't know how their engines work, but even steam engines are combustion).

The difference between an airship, a plane and a rocket isn't what give them speed, but what give them lift: the baloon for the airship or a blimp, the wings for a plane, nothing except the engines for the rocket.

This is what you learn playing Kerbal Space Program :P

[Peelee]

The difference between an airship, a plane and a rocket isn't what give them speed, but what give them lift: the baloon for the airship or a blimp, the wings for a plane, nothing except the engines for the rocket.

This is what you learn playing Kerbal Space Program :P

Right, but with the "more boosters" approach even an airship will eventually turn into a rocket. Of course, at that point, the gas bag is really just drag, so you could probably replace it with more boosters.

Hey,you did say Kerbal. :smallamused:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Some thoughts on Mechane...

Assuming the hull is lighter, it would achieve greater acceleration, but would not meaningfully improve it's top speed.

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.

On the contrary, since drag is affected by cross-section, a lighter hull means a smaller bag to achieve buoyancy, which means a smaller profile, which means a lower drag coefficient. The whole point, one suspects, of "magic makes this thing lighter" is to explain why the Mechane has a bag about the size of the hull, instead of ~100 times bigger like in RL LtA airships.

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

A vamped Zz'dtri would have been enslaved to Greg until / unless Greg decided to release him. This much everyone seems to know, so he wouldn't have to kill Zz'dtri to hide how vampirism actually works or anything.

Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel and wouldn't necessarily be loyal, but... he doesn't have to release him. And more importantly, Z is a high-level wizard who can cast Teleport.

Using this, Greg can go straight to the Godsmoot, completely ignoring any interactions with the Order and avoiding them ever learning about his plan. And if / when things do go down, Greg will have a high-level wizard capable of casting Teleport on his side.

Alternatively, he could bring the enslaved Vampire Zz'dtri with him. The order might not be 100% happy about it, but they mind-controlled members of the Linear Guild before, and the benefits of having another wizard are obvious, so it wouldn't be hard for Greg to convince them.

Here's an alternate theory: The Vampire-spirit created for Zz'dtri would not be manufactured by Hel, since Zz'dtri did not serve the northern pantheon. This other vampire-spirit would not be informed of Hel's plan and might even oppose the plan, especially if whoever is the elvish god of undeath opposes it in the first place. Thus, the vampire wizard would be useful to Greg only so long as it was in thrall; he could not trust it if free-willed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Patterner]

The difference between an airship, a plane and a rocket isn't what give them speed, but what give them lift: the baloon for the airship or a blimp, the wings for a plane, nothing except the engines for the rocket.

This is what you learn playing Kerbal Space Program :P

My point was that as you tinker and tinker, sooner or later you will replace the ballon with something more effecient, as for example, wings.

Not that a plane and an airship is the same thing :smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

Here's an alternate theory: The Vampire-spirit created for Zz'dtri would not be manufactured by Hel, since Zz'dtri did not serve the northern pantheon. This other vampire-spirit would not be informed of Hel's plan and might even oppose the plan, especially if whoever is the elvish god of undeath opposes it in the first place. Thus, the vampire wizard would be useful to Greg only so long as it was in thrall; he could not trust it if free-willed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think anyone proposes Durkon* would free Zz'dtri*. I think Zz'dtri not being a Northerner doesn't change much anyway since the reason the other vampires are loyal to Hel is because the are Clerics are Zz'dtri is not that. He may be bribed however.

[Peelee]

My point was that as you tinker and tinker, sooner or later you will replace the ballon with something more effecient, as for example, wings.

Or more boosters, you Kerbal-heathen!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here's an alternate theory:

The Vampire-spirit created for Zz'dtri would not be manufactured by Hel, since Zz'dtri did not serve the northern pantheon

How is this an alternate theory, given that it is addressed in the post you are quoting?

"Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel"

Grey Wolf

[pendell]

How is this an alternate theory, given that it is addressed in the post you are quoting?

"Greg probably couldn't safely release him, both to keep hiding how vampirism works and because, if I understand how it works right, unlike the dwarven vampires, Z's spirit wouldn't be provided by Hel"

Grey Wolf

He still asked why in the title, despite this. My theory is that the vampire prefers free-willed vampires who can act on their own initiative, as opposed to thralls whom he must directly control. Consider the current threat the order is facing. What if the vampire leading this entire thing was not a Hel-driven former dwarf cleric, but was instead a vampire wizard from some other pantheon?

There's just so much more you can do with someone who really is acting of their free will towards your goals than a slave who only acts out of compulsion.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dion]

Some thoughts on Mechane...

Assuming the hull is lighter, it would achieve greater acceleration, but would not meaningfully improve it's top speed.

Its top speed would be the point at which the thrust is equal to the drag [net force equals zero]. Since the drag is unaffected by the mass of the vehicle [D = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * Cd * A, rho is the density of air, v is the free-stream velocity, Cd and A are governed by the geometry of the vehicle], the top speed would be unchanged.

If the hull is lighter, then the size of the gas bladder can be reduced, which reduces the area (A) in the drag equation, which increases top speed.

Of course, drag goes up as the square of velocity, and area goes down by a cube root of mass, so it’s not like it’s going to change the top speed that much.

But I’m certain Rich carefully ran the equations and considered the ramifications before making the decision to allow Durkon to kill Zz’dtri.

[Lacuna Caster]

But I’m certain Rich carefully ran the equations and considered the ramifications before making the decision to allow Durkon to kill Zz’dtri.
There are all kinds of reasons why Durkula might just kill Zz'dtri, including "it was a decision made under time-pressure and I didn't think everything through." But both he and the author presumably had the luxury of pondering whether airships in general are faster than other readily-available means of magical transport.

[KorvinStarmast]

If the hull is lighter, then the size of the gas bladder can be reduced, which can reduce the area (A)(cross section) in the drag equation, which can increase top speed. It depends on the geometry of the final design. But mostly, yeah, that's a way to approach the performance optimization problem.

Of course, drag goes up as the square of velocity, and area goes down by a cube root of mass, so it’s not like it’s going to change the top speed that much. Correct. Dragons have always violated the cube/square law, but magic helps them fly so no big. :smallcool:

But I’m certain Rich carefully ran the equations and considered the ramifications before making the decision to allow Durkon to kill Zz’dtri. You forgot the blue text. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

both he and the author presumably had the luxury of pondering whether airships in general are faster than other readily-available means of magical transport.

Lacuna, I literally cannot tell if you are attempting sarcasm here or speaking in earnest.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Correct. Dragons have always violated the cube/square law, but magic helps them fly so no big. :smallcool:
Well, you can always give them proportionately bigger wings, in which case all they need is supernatural muscle strength. (They apparently did this with the fel beasts (https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Fellbeast) in LOTR.)


Lacuna, I literally cannot tell if you are attempting sarcasm here or speaking in earnest.
No... ...I'm being sincere? There was, in principle, nothing to stop Durkula from using wind-walk/plane shift to get to his destination independently. I mean, if the airship is faster, the airship is faster, but whether it's faster is not a trivial point.

[Peelee]

No... ...I'm being sincere? There was, in principle, nothing to stop Durkula from using wind-walk/plane shift to get to his destination independently. I mean, if the airship is faster, the airship is faster, but whether it's faster is not a trivial point.

The vampire made his decision on 907 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html). The airship didn't appear until 930 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html). He wouldn't have had that knowledge when he acted against Z.

[Dion]

No... ...I'm being sincere? There was, in principle, nothing to stop Durkula from using wind-walk/plane shift to get to his destination independently. I mean, if the airship is faster, the airship is faster, but whether it's faster is not a trivial point.

When Durkon killed Zz’dtri, was Durkon aware that the party was going to take Julio’s airship to the northern gate?

Edit: dammit Peelee!

[Peelee]

When Durkon killed Zz’dtri, was Durkon aware that the party was going to take Julio’s airship to the northern gate?

I believe the appropriate phrase is, "dammit, Peelee!" :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Well, you can always give them proportionately bigger wings, in which case all they need is supernatural muscle strength. (They apparently did this with the fel beasts (https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Fellbeast) in LOTR.)

I got the impression that fell beast wings weren't vastly larger compared to its body, than bat wings were compared to a bat's body. That they weren't proportionally big enough - the beast would not only need ludicrous strength, it would need to be ludicrously light.

[Lacuna Caster]

The vampire made his decision on 907 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html). The airship didn't appear until 930 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html). He wouldn't have had that knowledge when he acted against Z.

When Durkon killed Zz’dtri, was Durkon aware that the party was going to take Julio’s airship to the northern gate?
Again, I'm not talking about the decision to kill Zz'dtri, or even the decision to stick with the OOTS and get on the airship in the first place (he might not have had any transport spells prepared at the time.) I'm talking about once he's safely aboard the airship and has the luxury of reflecting on how best to expedite his arrival at zenith peak. At that point, yes, whether the airship is actually faster than other methods of transport does become relevant.

[Dion]

I believe the appropriate phrase is, "dammit, Peelee!" :smallbiggrin:

Also, to answer the original question of the thread: I believe that the author’s decision to setup a situation where Zz’dtri would be killed was, in part, to remove teleport from the playing field.

[Peelee]

Again, I'm not talking about the decision to kill Zz'dtri, or even the decision to stick with the OOTS and get on the airship in the first place (he might not have had any transport spells prepared at the time.) I'm talking about once he's safely aboard the airship and has the luxury of reflecting on how best to expedite his arrival at zenith peak. At that point, yes, whether the airship is actually faster than other methods of transport does become relevant.

You had written two sentences, the first directly talking about reasons to kill Z. It seemed more like a single train of thought rather than two distinct ideas, it's why I (and others) apparebtly misread it the way we did. Sorry!

[Lacuna Caster]

I got the impression that fell beast wings weren't vastly larger compared to its body, than bat wings were compared to a bat's body. That they weren't proportionally big enough - the beast would not only need ludicrous strength, it would need to be ludicrously light.
I can't recall the precise source, but I think this either came up in the commentary on one of the collector's edition DVDs or one of the public promo clips for RotK. It's not that far-fetched- take a look at the relative scale of quetzalcoatlus (https://halfeatenmind.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/quetzalcoatlus-the-flying-dinosaur-taller-than-a-giraffe/) and just buff that up so it's an active flyer rather than a passive glider.


Also, to answer the original question of the thread: I believe that the author’s decision to setup a situation where Zz’dtri would be killed was, in part, to remove teleport from the playing field.
Also- why doesn't Greg kill V for that teleport orb?

[Lacuna Caster]

You had written two sentences, the first directly talking about reasons to kill Z.
No, I actually left out a 'not' there. My mistake.

[Fyraltari]

I got the impression that fell beast wings weren't vastly larger compared to its body, than bat wings were compared to a bat's body. That they weren't proportionally big enough - the beast would not only need ludicrous strength, it would need to be ludicrously light.
They are also supposed to fly faster than the wind, so I don't think they make much sense without magic, but then again they are most likely descended from dragons, so...

Also, to answer the original question of the thread: I believe that the author’s decision to setup a situation where Zz’dtri would be killed was, in part, to remove teleport from the playing field.
Given that Laurin shows up just after that, I doubt it. I think Zz'dtri's death was to isolate Nale from his last remaining ally.

EDIT:

Also- why doesn't Greg kill V for that teleport orb?

What for? By the point he learns the elf has indeed acquired a way to teleport Roy has already found a way to bring him where he wants to go on time. Using the orb to got there would prevent him from using it for plan B and he couldn't kill V without the others noticing.

[Dion]

Also- why doesn't Greg kill V for that teleport orb?

If believe that was the backup plan if he hadn’t succeeded in tricking Roy into going to the godsmoot.

But remember, Durkon never had to solve the problem of figuring out the fastest way to get to the godsmoot. All he ever had to do was to get there on time, and the airship already has an infinite improbability plot drive that would do that for him.

[Lacuna Caster]

What for? By the point he learns the elf has indeed acquired a way to teleport Roy has already found a way to bring him where he wants to go on time. Using the orb to got there would prevent him from using it for plan B and he couldn't kill V without the others noticing.
With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

[Peelee]

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.

[Lacuna Caster]

No, I actually left out a 'not' there. My mistake.
Wait, what am I saying? No, I was giving a reason why Durkula would kill Z. (e.g, regardless of strategic value, he was in a rush and acted impulsively.)


It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.
Are you sure? Was there anybody at the Godsmoot that he specifically refrained from vampirising over not being a cleric?

[Dion]

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.

But then why didn’t he vampirize Elan!?!

I believe Hel and Banjo could have worked out a deal that involved Banjo’s unique quiddity.

Plot hole! Plot hole!

[Fyraltari]

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.
And then he would have no way of getting inside firmament discreetly. I don't think the dwarves would have missed a big honking airship trying to land on their doorway.

[Jasdoif]

With the element of surprise, he could probably kill the entire Order in their sleep, and teleportation gives him extra time to raise a vampire horde without any chance of interference by Roy & Co. Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.It's true. HPoH could have been an amateur planner, assumed he knows absolutely everything that could possibly happen ever, decided that his plan that was already working could in no way be harmed by destroying the legion of circumstances that made it work; and risk screwing everything up for no real benefit.

[Peelee]

Wait, what am I saying? No, I was giving a reason why Durkula would kill Z. (e.g, regardless of strategic value, he was in a rush and acted impulsively.)


Are you sure? Was there anybody at the Godsmoot that he specifically refrained from vampirising over not being a cleric?

Roy and Belkar.

[Lacuna Caster]

And then he would have no way of getting inside firmament discreetly. I don't think the dwarves would have missed a big honking airship trying to land on their doorway.
But he's legitimately the High Priest of Hel, and it's not like the Godsmoot is turning away all the evil clerics, regardless of what they might have done outside the moot. He doesn't need to sneak in, he just needs to get there.


It's true. HPoH could have been an amateur planner, assumed he knows absolutely everything that could possibly happen ever, decided that his plan that was already working could in no way be harmed by destroying the legion of circumstances that made it work; and risk screwing everything up for no real benefit.
I dunno. Having 5 other veteran adventurers and an airship directly under your thrall seems like a non-trivial benefit, particularly if they might try fighting you during or after the Godsmoot.


Roy and Belkar.
I don't recall he got the chance to finish with Roy, and in any case, this only raises the question of 'why not'?

[Peelee]

I don't recall he got the chance to finish with Roy, and in any case
He had plenty of time before the Hel reveal, as did his minions. Surprise is a huge advantage.

this only raises the question of 'why not'?
..... seriously?

It seems like he only trusts other cleric vampires made by Hel, though, since he only vamps other clerics.

[Fyraltari]

But he's legitimately the High Priest of Hel, and it's not like the Godsmoot is turning away all the evil clerics, regardless of what they might have done outside the moot. He doesn't need to sneak in, he just needs to get there.
Yes? I'm not talking about that. Firmament is the city the Council of clan Elders is meeting in. It's inside a mountain. Thay aren't many ways to get inside those.

EDIT:

To be fair, TOotS pretty did basically fly a big honkin airship up to the side door. I don’t think the dwarves would have stopped him.

The side door he doesn't know exist and can only be opened with a stone he doesn't possess would definitely stop him.

The Dwarves presumably have defenses at the regular entry points of their subterranean realm. Granted I don't know they can stop a vampire but I don't know they can't either and the teleport orb is still a much better way to get there on time and stealthily.

[Dion]

And then he would have no way of getting inside firmament discreetly. I don't think the dwarves would have missed a big honking airship trying to land on their doorway.

To be fair, TOotS pretty did basically fly a big honkin airship up to the side door. I don’t think the dwarves would have stopped him.

[Lacuna Caster]

He had plenty of time before the Hel reveal, as did his minions. Surprise is a huge advantage.

..... seriously?
It may have occurred to you, Peelee, that I don't find this explanation sufficiently convincing. Pointing out 'he could easily have vampirised the crew with the element of surprise' is kind of a part of my argument.


Yes? I'm not talking about that. Firmament is the city the Council of clan Elders is meeting in. It's inside a mountain. Thay aren't many ways to get inside those.
Yes, but I'm talking about some hypothetical scenario where Durkula seized V's teleport orb or just took over the airship by killing/vampirising the crew and/or OOTS.

[Jasdoif]

I dunno. Having 5 other veteran adventurers and an airship directly under your thrall seems like a non-trivial benefit, particularly if they might try fighting you during or after the Godsmoot.And getting destroyed before you ever look at your destination, because you didn't know not to underestimate the high level veteran adventurers, is the kind of thing that amateurs do. The classic greed pattern of betting everything after you already have exactly what you came for, and losing it all.

Hermod reneging on his agreement with Hel (something HPoH had no way of knowing or influencing) is the only reason the world wasn't ended right then and there, in which case the adventurers and airship are superfluous; and taking the teleport orb after didn't even pose a problem since Vaarsuvius wasn't there.

[Peelee]

It may have occurred to you, Peelee, that I don't find this explanation sufficiently convincing.

It also occurred to me to not try circular reasoning. If I introduce a hypothesis for why a character did X, then asking "but why?" is... I don't even know how to describe a question that ridiculous.

Take an example:

Why did Bob kill Steve?
"Maybe Bob wanted to silence Steve."
OK, but if there was stuff Steve knew that Bob didn't want to come out, then why did Bob kill Steve?

You're not poking any holes in the hypothesis, you're just walking in a circle as quickly as possible.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but I'm talking about some hypothetical scenario where Durkula seized V's teleport orb or just took over the airship by killing/vampirising the crew and/or OOTS.

Okay let's rewind thing a bit here:

Durkon* along with Roy just learned from Veldrina and Wrecan that V got their hand on a teleport orb which could get Durkon* everywwhere should he steal it.
Meanwhile Roy just secured a way for him to get to the Moot on time.

Durkon* knows he needs a way to get to Firmament if, like he hopes, the vote is still tied when Dvalin votes.

Now he has three options:

The first is the one seen in the comic: keep playing the perfect teammate and go to the moot with the order and once there steal the orb if he finds a Cleric to vamp to stand in his stead in case of a tie so that he can go to Firmament and rig that vote. That plan is guaranteed to bring him to the moot (and thus fullfill his part of plan A) and while there is a chance the theft is discovered, his treachery is going to revealed anyway.

The second one is to steal the orb and teleport right away. Then he will be safely at the Moot but he will have no way to reach Firmament if plan B is needed.

The third one is to try to take over the Mechane (can he even keep enough thralls under his control to steer the ship?), now this will be tricky since only three people onboard (Roy, Haley and Elan) trust him while one (Belkar) is actively out to prove his disloyalty, and the other don't trust him but aren't convince of foul play either (the crew particularly is unconfortable with having a vampire onboard). Shoud he manage to take over the ship he could ue it to reach the moot and if he can vamp a Cleric there, he is in a position to carry plan B. But should he fail and both plan A and B fail.

The first option is the better one, in my opinion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Heck, if he really needed the airship, in principle he could just vampirise the entire crew of the Mechane.

Vampires cannot crew the Mechane - there is no shade. They were in a hurry and couldn't travel only at night.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Vampires cannot crew the Mechane - there is no shade. They were in a hurry and couldn't travel only at night.

Grey Wolf

How do charges in a staff work exactly? Do you have to know the spell to recharge a spell that's already in the staff? Does it recharge on its own after a day?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How do charges in a staff work exactly? Do you have to know the spell to recharge a spell that's already in the staff? Does it recharge on its own after a day?

Depends on the staff. Most cannot be recharged, and those that can involve rather arcane rituals - like leaving it under a full moon and the like - and are extremely rare. More likely, Malack just made a new one when the current one is running out, and Greg wouldn't have the time or knowledge to do that himself (you need to know the spells to craft the staff, IIRC).

There is also a hard limit to number of charges - 50, I think? It's been theorised that the staff was probably close to empty by the end.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

And getting destroyed before you ever look at your destination, because you didn't know not to underestimate the high level veteran adventurers, is the kind of thing that amateurs do.
Yeah, they're high-level veterans, but Durkula is a ~level-15 tier-1 full caster with the added benefit of tanking ability, which means that really only Roy has a respectable chance of beating him, assuming they even wake up first. And if he just takes over the ship he doesn't have to take on the risk and complication of trying to manipulate Roy into heading for the moot without actually saying that's what he wants- he can just order !Bandana to set course. It's not a foolproof plan, sure, but neither were the alternatives.


Why did Bob kill Steve?
"Maybe Bob wanted to silence Steve."
OK, but if there was stuff Steve knew that Bob didn't want to come out, then why did Bob kill Steve?
No, this is "Bob had good reason to kill Steve, so how come he didn't?" vs. "The fact he didn't indicates he must not have had good reason." You're not presenting any actual independent evidence that Greg would lack control over non-clerics.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay let's rewind thing a bit here:

Durkon* along with Roy just learned from Veldrina and Wrecan that V got their hand on a teleport orb which could get Durkon* everywhere should he steal it.
From the point where he finds out V has the orb, yeah, that's a plausible line of argument. But he could have taken over the ship at more-or-less any time.


Vampires cannot crew the Mechane - there is no shade. They were in a hurry and couldn't travel only at night.
...Ah. That actually makes sense.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, they're high-level veterans, but Durkula is a ~level-15 tier-1 full caster with the added benefit of tanking ability, which means that really only Roy has a respectable chance of beating him, assuming they even wake up first. And if he just takes over the ship he doesn't have to take on the risk and complication of trying to manipulate Roy into heading for the moot without actually saying that's what he wants- he can just order !Bandana to set course. It's not a foolproof plan, sure, but neither were the alternatives.

But he had no reason to try it as long as the Mechane was headed in the right direction. If in Tinkertown he could not have found a single Cleric willing to spill to Roy that a pilgrimage of powerful Clerics had been there recently and then he couldn't come up with any convincing lie to get there, then would have been the right time to risk it. Why not keep his options open as long as possible?

[Goblin_Priest]

So why did he not vamp Belkar instead of throwing him out the window? :P

[Fyraltari]

So why did he not vamp Belkar instead of throwing him out the window? :P

He got really frustrated that it failed twice so he wanted to try again? All that panel 19 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) is missing is a thought ballon "And stay down!"

[Rrmcklin]

No, this is "Bob had good reason to kill Steve, so how come he didn't?" vs. "The fact he didn't indicates he must not have had good reason." You're not presenting any actual independent evidence that Greg would lack control over non-clerics.

I imagine he would if he kept them as thralls, but he didn't seem to be doing that. And imagine vampire clerics are much more likely to be loyal to Hel and her cause than non-clerical vampires.

[Peelee]

No, this is "Bob had good reason to kill Steve, so how come he didn't?" vs. "The fact he didn't indicates he must not have had good reason." You're not presenting any actual independent evidence that Greg would lack control over non-clerics.

Because clerics made by Hel are significantly more likely to choose to do Hel's bidding, as she will readily grant them powers, as opposed to literally any other class where they have no reason to enter into Hel's service.

Ive never said he would lack control over non-clerics. Hell, I don't think he even exerts control over the clerics he made;from all indications, none of the vamps are under thralldom and all seem to be acting entirely independently, albeit in willing service to Hel. From this, I can guess that the original vampire was not a fan of having to exert constant control over non-clerical vampires, which would fit in with what we see.

Please don't respond with *but why?"

[Fyraltari]

Because clerics made by Hel are significantly more likely to choose to do Hel's bidding, as she will readily grant them powers, as opposed to literally any other class where they have no reason to enter into Hel's service.

Ive never said he would lack control over non-clerics. Hell, I don't think he even exerts control over the clerics he made;from all indications, none of the vamps are under thralldom and all seem to be acting entirely independently, albeit in willing service to Hel. From this, I can guess that the original vampire was not a fan of having to exert constant control over non-clerical vampires, which would fit in with what we see.

Please don't respond with *but why?"

I think the non-casters were thralls because they're never shown taking any iniative, one uses a very childish turn of phrase "she burned us with the bad light! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html)" and well, because as free-will vampires they wouldn't really have a stake (heh) in this.

[Peelee]

I think the non-casters were thralls because they're never shown taking any iniative, one uses a very childish turn of phrase "she burned us with the bad light! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html)" and well, because as free-will vampires they wouldn't really have a stake (heh) in this.

Oh, right, there were some non-casters. I do note they're dwarves, though. Given the Dwarven issue with Hel, I wonder if they also willingly pledged themselves to her cause to be taken with the clerics and saved for the next world, or if they're still thralls. The childishness does indicate the latter.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, right, there were some non-casters. I do note they're dwarves, though. Given the Dwarven issue with Hel, I wonder if they also willingly pledged themselves to her cause to be taken with the clerics and saved for the next world, or if they're still thralls. The childishness does indicate the latter.

If they are afraid of the world ending, being dwarves doesn't enter the equation, vampires are not subject to the Bet. Then again being dwarves, there's a non-trivial chace that they're all lawful and would follow orders of their bloodfather out of compliance. But I like the thrall explanation better.

[Kish]

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 5 hit dice or more by blood draining, the result is that creature with the vampire template added.

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 4 hit dice or less by blood draining, or kills any humanoid by energy draining, the result is a vampire spawn--29 hit points, Str 16, Dex 14, Con Ø, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14, no spellcasting. Whether that humanoid was Laurin or one of the dirt farmers beforehand doesn't make any difference to the vampire spawn's stats.

Just to clarify that it's far from clear that the "non-casters" were not clerics before being converted; if they happened to be level 1-4 clerics, when they were converted into wouldn't have class levels anyway.

[Fyraltari]

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 5 hit dice or more by blood draining, the result is that creature with the vampire template added.

If a vampire kills a humanoid with 4 hit dice or less by blood draining, or kills any humanoid by energy draining, the result is a vampire spawn--29 hit points, Str 16, Dex 14, Con Ø, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14, no spellcasting. Whether that humanoid was Laurin or one of the dirt farmers beforehand doesn't make any difference to the vampire spawn's stats.

Just to clarify that it's far from clear that the "non-casters" were not clerics before being converted; if they happened to be level 1-4 clerics, when they were converted into wouldn't have class levels anyway.
With the exceptions of those wearing Clerical robes, none of the vampires are wearing a holy symbol when they are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1100.html) pretending to be dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) and several are wearing civilian/laypeople clothing. I don't think they were low-level Clerics.

[Xyril]

But then wouldn't it have been more cruel to actually go and drink his blood to make a vampire out of Z?

Not really. It's a bit of a recurring trope to punish people by giving them what they want in a way that they didn't expect. If he makes a vampire out of him, it means that nothing Nale said or did could have changed the outcome--plus, given that Nale seemed to think that Durkula was still "Durkon" enough to treat him as Durkon while trying to recruit him, maybe Nale actually does think that if Z was freed from the thrall, it would be the same being, or at the very least, someone close enough to being his friend.

By killing him instead, Durkula was just doing what Nale said--in a strange, twisted sort of way, it becomes partly Nale's fault. If Nale hadn't said what he did, then maybe there would have been a different outcome that was potentially not as bad.

[Peelee]

With the exceptions of those wearing Clerical robes, none of the vampires are wearing a holy symbol when they are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1100.html) pretending to be dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) and several are wearing civilian/laypeople clothing. I don't think they were low-level Clerics.

Yeah, I was also basing that on their clothes.

[Xyril]

There are all kinds of reasons why Durkula might just kill Zz'dtri, including "it was a decision made under time-pressure and I didn't think everything through."

Speaking of which, what are the Rules As Implied when it comes unconsciousness in this setting? My general sense has been that you're pretty much a Cure Light Wounds or a healing potion to the face away from being on your feet and a threat again. If so, Z being unconsciousness doesn't mean that he's (necessarily) neutralized for the rest of the fight, so your options (beyond ignoring him and praying that Nale or someone else doesn't come around and help him) are pretty much killing him, vamping him (which probably leaves you vulnerable to the still-fighting Nale), or spending the rest of the fight with "Don't let Nale revive his ally" becoming a new top-level objective.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, they're high-level veterans, but Durkula is a ~level-15 tier-1 full caster with the added benefit of tanking ability, which means that really only Roy has a respectable chance of beating him, assuming they even wake up first. And if he just takes over the ship he doesn't have to take on the risk and complication of trying to manipulate Roy into heading for the moot without actually saying that's what he wants- he can just order !Bandana to set course. It's not a foolproof plan, sure, but neither were the alternatives.I suppose it's true enough; if everything works out perfectly, HPoH doesn't have to keep manipulating Roy like he's already proven himself capable of pulling off, to get an advantage that'll only matter if someone else doesn't do their part. And when/if HPoH screws up an almost-assured plan because perfection didn't come his way...well, maybe he'll think Hel should have foreseen him deviating from her plan and screwing it up, and blame her for not specifically warning him about it...not that he'll be in a position to care.

That doesn't sound like HPoH to me, though.

[understatement]

Greg is literally an Evil spirit; one-handedly killing a man's friend right in front of him would be pretty sweet.

[Xyril]

I imagine he would if he kept them as thralls, but he didn't seem to be doing that. And imagine vampire clerics are much more likely to be loyal to Hel and her cause than non-clerical vampires.

Alternatively, the problem might be less about cleric vs. non-cleric and more about worship. As I understand it, Hel has dominion over the dishonored dwarven dead and the undead in general for her pantheon. This means that V, like Z, would probably fall under the Western pantheon since the elven gods apparently caucus with them. Given the location of the few specific exploits we know about, it seems likely that the Mechane spent much of its time on the Western continent, and thus at least some part of its crew would fall outside of Hel's domain.

I've been assuming that everyone else in the Order falls under the Northern pantheon (since they seemed to react to Azure City and the Western Continent as if they were strange and foreign), but we can't really be sure about that. Clerical magic at least seems to be color-coded for your convenience, and Elan casts in Southern Pantheon Blue. (Bardic magic is divine magic, IIRC.) Plus there's the whole Banjo thing. True, a lot of the exposition on that has been the form of punchlines, and even if we consider Odin's consideration of admitting Banjo to his pantheon to be canon, that's been recently undermined by his dementia. Still, we don't really know much about the rules for apotheosis, only that it can happen under exceedingly rare circumstances, and Elan is nothing if not unique.

This means that at least some of the potential vampires wouldn't fall under Hel's domain at all, so the question of how loyal they are to her is moot. As for those who might, in the best case scenario Durkula gets Roy, Haley, Elan, Belkar, and a handful of the Mechane crew, but if he enacts this plan, there's no way everyone else goes along with it, meaning he has to kill V and the rest of the crew, or turn them and keep them enthralled. IIRC, there's a rather harsh level limit on thralls through various abilities--if you've got a thrall or two anywhere near your level, that's pretty much it for you--but I don't know if the rules are different for vampires or just different for this setting. That limits the utility of the "turn 'em all and sort out who to restore free will to later" option. As others have mentioned, turning them and freeing them could yield vampires that are independently on board with the plan, but it could also mean giving agents of a different deity the chance to undermine your mission.

[hamishspence]

Clerical magic at least seems to be color-coded for your convenience, and Elan casts in Southern Pantheon Blue. (Bardic magic is divine magic, IIRC.)

Arcane:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Spells
A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

Also, The Giant has stated Elan's blue spell colour has nothing to do with the Southern Continent:


Every spellcaster has their own color; it is not based on their alignment or type of magic or anything. It is mostly a matter of choice or personality, though most clerics tend to clump into the same general color if they worship the same gods because they tend to choose the same colors and/or have similar personalities.

Elan has a similar color to the Azurite priests because it's not as if everyone in the North sits around going, "Gosh, we can't pick blue, because those people on another continent all picked blue!" Tsukiko uses the same color for her divine magic as the Azurite priests because they both worship the Twelve Gods, who are worshipped as a pantheon by all alignments in Azure City.

[Fyraltari]

Alternatively, the problem might be less about cleric vs. non-cleric and more about worship. As I understand it, Hel has dominion over the dishonored dwarven dead and the undead in general for her pantheon. This means that V, like Z, would probably fall under the Western pantheon since the elven gods apparently caucus with them. Given the location of the few specific exploits we know about, it seems likely that the Mechane spent much of its time on the Western continent, and thus at least some part of its crew would fall outside of Hel's domain.
Indeed, at least one crew member is a worshipper of Adad the Thunderer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html), a Western god


I've been assuming that everyone else in the Order falls under the Northern pantheon (since they seemed to react to Azure City and the Western Continent as if they were strange and foreign), but we can't really be sure about that.
Roy was indentified as a Northerner during his celestial audit and Haley is from Greysky City, which is in the Northern Continent. Elan and Belkar I don't know.

Clerical magic at least seems to be color-coded for your convenience
No, it does not: Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) and Durkon* (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html) casts red, Durkon white (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html), Malack black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html)
and Hilgya orange (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1117.html).
None of those map to the color of their respective chosen deity's pantheon.


and Elan casts in Southern Pantheon Blue. (Bardic magic is divine magic, IIRC.) Plus there's the whole Banjo thing. True, a lot of the exposition on that has been the form of punchlines, and even if we consider Odin's consideration of admitting Banjo to his pantheon to be canon, that's been recently undermined by his dementia. Still, we don't really know much about the rules for apotheosis, only that it can happen under exceedingly rare circumstances, and Elan is nothing if not unique.
We know that it takes a lot of worshippers.


This means that at least some of the potential vampires wouldn't fall under Hel's domain at all, so the question of how loyal they are to her is moot. As for those who might, in the best case scenario Durkula gets Roy, Haley, Elan, Belkar, and a handful of the Mechane crew,
I don't follow your logic, there. Roy never cared for Odin and the rest in his life, why would Roy* be more likely to follow Hel than any other vampire who doesn't get power from her?


but if he enacts this plan, there's no way everyone else goes along with it
Well, there is way, after all the vampires would have no reason to care for the world and presumably would be offered riches and power in the next, but seeing as they don't have any loyalty to Hel they might not trust her to follow through when they're not needed anymore. It's just a riskier bet than sticking with Clerics.

As others have mentioned, turning them and freeing them could yield vampires that are independently on board with the plan, but it could also mean giving agents of a different deity the chance to undermine your mission.
Why would they? Vampires have no more reasons to be agents of a deity than living mortals and even if they are what does Nergal, for example, care if Hel topples Odin? Heck, it would probably mean that the next world would be more undead-friendly which he might profit somewhat.

[Rrmcklin]

Actually, never mind.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Regarding airships, I wonder if this in not a case were as you put on bigger and bigger enginees you will eventually find yourself having built an airplane instead.

I feel I don't have anything more to add to this conversation other than things about airships, because airships are cool...

:smallcool:

I don't have anything else to add except on airships either... I'm an aerospace engineer. Supposedly, I know things about flying. That said, I've never studied airships.

An airplane and an airship are very different, though. An airship relies on the balloon for lift, an airplane relies on the airflow over the wings for lift. Just adding engines to your airship will still leave you with an airship because you still produce no aerodynamic lift [albiet an unhappy one. I somehow suspect the structural integrity of the structure may not hold up under the load of fast flight].

A rocket works on the principle of "with enough thrust, anything can fly!"


A lighter hull means you can carry more fuel and attach more or bigger engines & propellors for more thrust. I'm guessing that has some impact on top speed.

Yeah. More fuel wouldn't make you faster, but improved engines would. Whether the engines were mass drivers on the Mechane is unknown, though, so I can't say for certain that lightening the ship results in increased engine size. [Particularly if it's magically lightened to be able to fly period]

As an additional thought, the Mechane can probably be approximated as two normal airships for drag purposes, since the lower ship hull can be approximated as another "balloon shape" of roughtly equal size to the top one. That might slow it down.


On the other hand, it's an airship, it's probably going so slowly that none of that really matters. I don't know what the structural integrity of an airship is, but I'd wager "not high"

[Xyril]

I don't follow your logic, there. Roy never cared for Odin and the rest in his life, why would Roy* be more likely to follow Hel than any other vampire who doesn't get power from her?


Who knows, maybe he wouldn't. It's possible, as has been hypothesized, that a cleric--or at the very least, a being with the personality that would be inclined to become a cleric--is required to make a being* shaped vampire that would care about Hel's wishes. It's also possible that Hel's intrinsic dominion is all that's needed to forge that connection. We know that the vampire is a distinct being, and I'm not sure, but I think the canon has been explicit that Hel actually creates the vampire spirit for the Northerners?

The current Order and crew are mortals who have been doing their thing for ages. Maybe they're sleeper agents for some other deity, but that seems unlikely given how improbable the current set of events are. However, when Durkon was turned, it created an opportunity for Hel to exert her influence. It's not clear how it worked--maybe Hel created the vampire spirit with some innate knowledge and instructions, or maybe all he had was a vague sense that he worshipped Hel, and that he should use his cleric-powers to commune with her. Creating a bunch of new vampires would presumably create a bunch of new opportunities for Hel or some other deity to exert their influence--and if one of them happened to be one of the members of the other Pantheons who voted against destroying the world, and if they're vaguely aware of what just happened with Hel in the Northern Godsmoot, then maybe they'll do something about it.

Again, this is all speculation like pretty much everything else in this thread, but to me, "Hey, I get to make a few new vampire spirits near the High Priest of Hel, maybe this would be a good time to try to stop her" seems marginally more likely than the deities regularly having a bunch of incredibly devout worshipers go into the world, hiding their piety so that some day--and that day may never come--their god will call upon them to do a service for him.



Well, there is way, after all the vampires would have no reason to care for the world and presumably would be offered riches and power in the next, but seeing as they don't have any loyalty to Hel they might not trust her to follow through when they're not needed anymore.

Is that first part necessarily true?


Why would they? Vampires have no more reasons to be agents of a deity than living mortals and even if they are what does Nergal, for example, care if Hel topples Odin?


Again, I'm not arguing that they would be, merely that it's a possibility that might give Hel/Durkula pause. Since Malack is a cleric, we can't really say whether his relationship with Nergal is typical for a Western non-cleric undead, but like I said, it's possible that the more direct act of creation would create a more intimate link than with, for example, Roy, whose only connection with the Northern Pantheon is basically that some generations back, Roy's ancestors were created by a collaboration of gods that included the Northern ones, and after an indeterminate time, Roy's family ended up in the part of the world that the yellow ones called dibs on. Remember, the undead spirit is a distinct being, albeit one meant to fill a--for example--Durkon-shaped hole. The fact that Durkon's gambit worked implies that the memories of the host have a tremendous impact on that spirit's identity, but the fact that Durkula had an inborn predilection to serve Hel, not Odin, implies that there was at the very least an important core of that spirit that wasn't just a distorted reflection of Durkon. Perhaps most tellingly, even after his trick worked, Durkon was worried about the vampire reasserting itself given enough time, which implied that he at least had reason to fear that the vampire had some core ego that existed beyond the impact of living Durkon's life.

As for the deities, who knows? The goblinoids feel they get a raw deal not just because they're Evil, or because they're shunned by certain segments of civilization, but because they're XP fodder who don't even merit their own gods. Given how the other gods and demigods voted, I don't think we can say definitively that Evil has a problem with their place in the current world order, and as for the undead, Hel was tricked into gleefully accepting an incredibly bad deal. All we know about Nergal is that he had at least one follower who was able to survive for centuries, establish himself in a position of substantial power and influence, and create heirs--and these heirs weren't killed by some more powerful deity's followers because that's how the pecking order works for the undead, but by the treacherous son of a trusted friend, neither of whom seem particularly inclined to promulgate the divine hierarchy on earth.

Maybe the undead could potentially do better--really, any god could potentially in the next world--but in general, maintaining the "play nice so we don't make a second Snarl" rules would require making sure that most deities are happy with their place in the current one. A big part of Hel's predicament is that she went into it willingly and eagerly, thinking she was putting one over on Thor, meaning that the rest of the Northern Pantheon would have no reason to side with her. If Odin and a few other gods had arbitrarily ganged up on someone, then all of the uninvolved deities and demi-deities would have to worry that if they let such a thing stand, they could be next through no fault of their own.

[Lacuna Caster]

Speaking of which, what are the Rules As Implied when it comes unconsciousness in this setting? My general sense has been that you're pretty much a Cure Light Wounds or a healing potion to the face away from being on your feet and a threat again.
Not entirely clear. The author tends to hand-wave some of the rules-niceties in this regard (e.g, people talking while in negative HP, insta-crit from neck-snaps or blackjacks.) But yes, by default, I don't think 3e D&D has any built-in pain penalties, so you can fight at full efficiency with 1 HP.


Ive never said he would lack control over non-clerics. Hell, I don't think he even exerts control over the clerics he made;from all indications, none of the vamps are under thralldom and all seem to be acting entirely independently, albeit in willing service to Hel...

I suppose it's true enough; if everything works out perfectly, HPoH doesn't have to keep manipulating Roy like he's already proven himself capable of pulling off, to get an advantage that'll only matter if someone else doesn't do their part...
If Durkula is supposed to be acting as if whatsisface the demigod voting as expected is a sure thing, why is there any need for him to head to the Godsmoot period? Isn't assuming otherwise basically his literal purpose in life?

I don't know why you're reacting to me floating this idea with such apparent hostility, by the way. I'm discussing a plan that an evil being with immense power and zero scruples might plausibly consider, not the best way to vivisect your living relatives.

In any case, Grey Wolf has pointed out that there's a quite distinct reason for not vampirising the crew (they can't withstand sunlight and someone needs to fly the ship by day.) I am actually satisfied with that explanation and said as much. You can all climb down from Defcon 1.

[hroþila]

If Durkula is supposed to be acting as if whatsisface the demigod voting as expected is a sure thing, why is there any need for him to head to the Godsmoot period? Isn't assuming otherwise basically his literal purpose in life?
Without Hel's vote, there's no tie. Without a tie, the demigods don't vote.

[Jasdoif]

I don't know why you're reacting to me floating this idea with such apparent hostility, by the way.Perhaps if you could explain what this hostility you apparently see is, I might have something resembling an answer.

[Peelee]

If Durkula is supposed to be acting as if whatsisface the demigod voting as expected is a sure thing, why is there any need for him to head to the Godsmoot period? Isn't assuming otherwise basically his literal purpose in life?

Assuming you mean the council of elders instead of the Godsmoot, he's a free-willed and free-thinking person. He can think there's a chance the demigod could not vote like she said and make a backup plan. Which he clearly did, since we see the ex-Exarch stealing the orb before the demigods vote.

His literal purpose in life is not to blindly assume everything Hel says is absolutely infallible.

[woweedd]

Who knows, maybe he wouldn't. It's possible, as has been hypothesized, that a cleric--or at the very least, a being with the personality that would be inclined to become a cleric--is required to make a being* shaped vampire that would care about Hel's wishes. It's also possible that Hel's intrinsic dominion is all that's needed to forge that connection. We know that the vampire is a distinct being, and I'm not sure, but I think the canon has been explicit that Hel actually creates the vampire spirit for the Northerners?

The current Order and crew are mortals who have been doing their thing for ages. Maybe they're sleeper agents for some other deity, but that seems unlikely given how improbable the current set of events are. However, when Durkon was turned, it created an opportunity for Hel to exert her influence. It's not clear how it worked--maybe Hel created the vampire spirit with some innate knowledge and instructions, or maybe all he had was a vague sense that he worshipped Hel, and that he should use his cleric-powers to commune with her. Creating a bunch of new vampires would presumably create a bunch of new opportunities for Hel or some other deity to exert their influence--and if one of them happened to be one of the members of the other Pantheons who voted against destroying the world, and if they're vaguely aware of what just happened with Hel in the Northern Godsmoot, then maybe they'll do something about it.

Again, this is all speculation like pretty much everything else in this thread, but to me, "Hey, I get to make a few new vampire spirits near the High Priest of Hel, maybe this would be a good time to try to stop her" seems marginally more likely than the deities regularly having a bunch of incredibly devout worshipers go into the world, hiding their piety so that some day--and that day may never come--their god will call upon them to do a service for him.



Is that first part necessarily true?



Again, I'm not arguing that they would be, merely that it's a possibility that might give Hel/Durkula pause. Since Malack is a cleric, we can't really say whether his relationship with Nergal is typical for a Western non-cleric undead, but like I said, it's possible that the more direct act of creation would create a more intimate link than with, for example, Roy, whose only connection with the Northern Pantheon is basically that some generations back, Roy's ancestors were created by a collaboration of gods that included the Northern ones, and after an indeterminate time, Roy's family ended up in the part of the world that the yellow ones called dibs on. Remember, the undead spirit is a distinct being, albeit one meant to fill a--for example--Durkon-shaped hole. The fact that Durkon's gambit worked implies that the memories of the host have a tremendous impact on that spirit's identity, but the fact that Durkula had an inborn predilection to serve Hel, not Odin, implies that there was at the very least an important core of that spirit that wasn't just a distorted reflection of Durkon. Perhaps most tellingly, even after his trick worked, Durkon was worried about the vampire reasserting itself given enough time, which implied that he at least had reason to fear that the vampire had some core ego that existed beyond the impact of living Durkon's life.

As for the deities, who knows? The goblinoids feel they get a raw deal not just because they're Evil, or because they're shunned by certain segments of civilization, but because they're XP fodder who don't even merit their own gods. Given how the other gods and demigods voted, I don't think we can say definitively that Evil has a problem with their place in the current world order, and as for the undead, Hel was tricked into gleefully accepting an incredibly bad deal. All we know about Nergal is that he had at least one follower who was able to survive for centuries, establish himself in a position of substantial power and influence, and create heirs--and these heirs weren't killed by some more powerful deity's followers because that's how the pecking order works for the undead, but by the treacherous son of a trusted friend, neither of whom seem particularly inclined to promulgate the divine hierarchy on earth.

Maybe the undead could potentially do better--really, any god could potentially in the next world--but in general, maintaining the "play nice so we don't make a second Snarl" rules would require making sure that most deities are happy with their place in the current one. A big part of Hel's predicament is that she went into it willingly and eagerly, thinking she was putting one over on Thor, meaning that the rest of the Northern Pantheon would have no reason to side with her. If Odin and a few other gods had arbitrarily ganged up on someone, then all of the uninvolved deities and demi-deities would have to worry that if they let such a thing stand, they could be next through no fault of their own.

The vampire seems to reflect the person their host was. Since Durkon was fanatically loyal to Thor, HPOH was just as fanatically loyal to Hel. Roy would presumably not feel the same loyalty, no more then he feels loyalty to the gods who birthed him to begin with. And, of course, that's all assuming Durkon* can take on 5 Near-Epic adventures, plus a whole crew of NPCs, who are also presumably above-average as NPCs go, in no way a safe assumption. Frankly, the best move for Durkon would probably be...Well, what he did. Namely, pretend to be his living self and trick them into giving him a lift.

[Ruck]

Without Hel's vote, there's no tie. Without a tie, the demigods don't vote.

But I need 17 pages to convince you my inaccurate recollection of the story is scientific proof of a plot hole, and you're insecure if you don't believe me.


Perhaps if you could explain what this hostility you apparently see is, I might have something resembling an answer.

Isn't it weird how often Lacuna projects emotional states onto other people?

[goodpeople25]

Isn't it weird how often Lacuna projects emotional states onto other people?
Sorry, I can't say either way.

I've been too busy dealing with my intense shame of incorrectly stating that Miko is not actually Batman (possibly Batman+) with a different gender. :smallfrown:
Or I'm not sure what to add besides a joking reference to a previous event. Take your pick. :smallwink:

[woweedd]

But I need 17 pages to convince you my inaccurate recollection of the story is scientific proof of a plot hole, and you're insecure if you don't believe me.



Isn't it weird how often Lacuna projects emotional states onto other people?
Dude, cool it.

[Fyraltari]

Who knows, maybe he wouldn't. It's possible, as has been hypothesized, that a cleric--or at the very least, a being with the personality that would be inclined to become a cleric--is required to make a being* shaped vampire that would care about Hel's wishes. It's also possible that Hel's intrinsic dominion is all that's needed to forge that connection. We know that the vampire is a distinct being, and I'm not sure, but I think the canon has been explicit that Hel actually creates the vampire spirit for the Northerners?
Hel does create the vampire spirits but that does not give her dominion over them. They are free-willed individuals just like the living. It hs been made clear that Durkon* went through so much trouble carrying that plan out, because he had (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html) reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html) beyond (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html) "Hel wishes it"'. Namely that Hel "exalts" his kind (she keep granting him powers) and he wants to hurt the dwarves just like Durkon wanted to during the worst moment of his life.


The current Order and crew are mortals who have been doing their thing for ages. Maybe they're sleeper agents for some other deity, but that seems unlikely given how improbable the current set of events are. However, when Durkon was turned, it created an opportunity for Hel to exert her influence. It's not clear how it worked--maybe Hel created the vampire spirit with some innate knowledge and instructions, or maybe all he had was a vague sense that he worshipped Hel, and that he should use his cleric-powers to commune with her.
It is clear how it works, for more clarification go look at the "index of the giant comments" thread.
I'll give you a rundown: when Hel creates a vampire she gets a few moments to cram their head with knowledge (language and her plan mostly apparently), the vampires then absorbs their first memory, the moment in their life where they felt the absolute worst. Since the vampire has never had any kind of childhood, they have absolutely no emotionnal maturity that would help them deal with that suffering, the result is that their personality forms around that moment of anger/despair/suffering and thus becomes evil (just look at the Lower Planes' mottos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)) and as they absorb memories in no particular order this memory colors all the others (why did Durkon* think Thor was a "deceitful untrustworthy wrench (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)"? Because each time he viewed a memory of Thor's Clergy teaching how caring he is, he remembered his high priest betraying Durkon).

The end result is a creature that has all the life-story of the host but twisted, as if view through a faulty window meaning their personnality is the same as the host but with all the worst parts mazgnified and all the good one diminished. So yes, it seems that for the vampire to be particularly religious they would need to have a host who was. And if they are not religious they will need some incentive to get in on the plan.

Creating a bunch of new vampires would presumably create a bunch of new opportunities for Hel or some other deity to exert their influence--and if one of them happened to be one of the members of the other Pantheons who voted against destroying the world, and if they're vaguely aware of what just happened with Hel in the Northern Godsmoot, then maybe they'll do something about it.
See above, what the deity creating the vampire thinks is irrelevant next to what the vampire want.


Again, this is all speculation like pretty much everything else in this thread, but to me, "Hey, I get to make a few new vampire spirits near the High Priest of Hel, maybe this would be a good time to try to stop her" seems marginally more likely than the deities regularly having a bunch of incredibly devout worshipers go into the world, hiding their piety so that some day--and that day may never come--their god will call upon them to do a service for him.
Where does that second option come from? Nobody proposed that, what "incredibly devout worshippers" are you talking about?



Is that first part necessarily true?
Why would a creature whose only (or nearly so) memory is one of suffering care for anyone or anything in the world?




Again, I'm not arguing that they would be, merely that it's a possibility that might give Hel/Durkula pause. Since Malack is a cleric, we can't really say whether his relationship with Nergal is typical for a Western non-cleric undead, but like I said, it's possible that the more direct act of creation would create a more intimate link than with, for example, Roy, whose only connection with the Northern Pantheon is basically that some generations back, Roy's ancestors were created by a collaboration of gods that included the Northern ones, and after an indeterminate time, Roy's family ended up in the part of the world that the yellow ones called dibs on.
I'm pretty sure that Roy's soul was created by the Northern god of life (so Freya goddess of fertility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)) who put it inside his body just like Hel put Durkon*'s soul inside Durkon body as part of her duties as goddess of death.


Remember, the undead spirit is a distinct being, albeit one meant to fill a--for example--Durkon-shaped hole. The fact that Durkon's gambit worked implies that the memories of the host have a tremendous impact on that spirit's identity, but the fact that Durkula had an inborn predilection to serve Hel, not Odin,
You do not know that. Thor would not grant Durkon* anymore so he needed a new patron and Hel offered both powers and a plan to make the people he hated suffer. She was the logical choice, that doesn't mean that he was supernaturally compelled to serve her over, say her brother Fenrir god of monsters. (If Odin is a good god, it should be impossible for hil to grant Durkon* powers anyway unless this was a special case).

implies that there was at the very least an important core of that spirit that wasn't just a distorted reflection of Durkon. Perhaps most tellingly, even after his trick worked, Durkon was worried about the vampire reasserting itself given enough time, which implied that he at least had reason to fear that the vampire had some core ego that existed beyond the impact of living Durkon's life.
Being worried about something does not mean that something is real. Durkon felt "the negative energy squirming around" which could mean that all he did would be negated just because negative energy or mean that he was not used to being made of negative energy rather than positive one, or nothing at all. With the fate of the world in the balance Durkon did not take any risk.


As for the deities, who knows? The goblinoids feel they get a raw deal not just because they're Evil, or because they're shunned by certain segments of civilization, but because they're XP fodder who don't even merit their own gods. Given how the other gods and demigods voted, I don't think we can say definitively that Evil has a problem with their place in the current world order, and as for the undead, Hel was tricked into gleefully accepting an incredibly bad deal. All we know about Nergal is that he had at least one follower who was able to survive for centuries, establish himself in a position of substantial power and influence, and create heirs--and these heirs weren't killed by some more powerful deity's followers because that's how the pecking order works for the undead, but by the treacherous son of a trusted friend, neither of whom seem particularly inclined to promulgate the divine hierarchy on earth.

Maybe the undead could potentially do better--really, any god could potentially in the next world--but in general, maintaining the "play nice so we don't make a second Snarl" rules would require making sure that most deities are happy with their place in the current one. A big part of Hel's predicament is that she went into it willingly and eagerly, thinking she was putting one over on Thor, meaning that the rest of the Northern Pantheon would have no reason to side with her. If Odin and a few other gods had arbitrarily ganged up on someone, then all of the uninvolved deities and demi-deities would have to worry that if they let such a thing stand, they could be next through no fault of their own.
What does that have to do with the question of wether non-cleric vampires would be loyal to Hel?

[Lacuna Caster]

Perhaps if you could explain what this hostility you apparently see is, I might have something resembling an answer.

But I need 17 pages to convince you my inaccurate recollection of the story is scientific proof of a plot hole, and you're insecure if you don't believe me...

I've been too busy dealing with my intense shame of incorrectly stating that Miko is not actually Batman (possibly Batman+) with a different gender. :smallfrown:
This is a trap whereby I either refute you in detail, turn the thread into another 16-page cluster****, and get accused of being a one-issue hot-button threadjacker, or just ask you to go back and read the original arguments, and thereby get accused of insulting your intelligence or breaking board rules, or something.

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

[woweedd]

This is a trap whereby I either refute you in detail, turn the thread into another 16-page cluster****, and get accused of being a one-issue hot-button threadjacker, or just ask you to go back and read the original arguments, and thereby get accused of insulting your intelligence or breaking board rules, or something.

Yeah, I'm not doing that.
...I agree that Ruck and GP, at least, is being overly-aggressive about the whole thing, but Jasidof seems to be actually confused. Basically, what i'm wondering: Why do you keep on questioning us about "plot holes" when you don't accept any answers? It honestly just kinda looks like you're only saying them, not actually expecting a response other then agreement, because you're using them to lead into a rhetorical point, but that seems ridiculous.

[Lacuna Caster]

...I agree that Ruck and GP, at least, is being overly-aggressive about the whole thing, but Jasidof seems to be actually confused. Basically, what i'm wondering: Why do you keep on questioning us about "plot holes" when you don't accept any answers?
I literally just accepted an answer from Grey Wolf here, woweedd. There are some cases I look at the story and say, "hmm, that's strange/interesting" and bring it up and some of the answers are plausible and some of the answers are not (e.g, why X parents are dead.) And then there are other cases where I point out an inconsistency (e.g, no use of sending/teleport/wind-walk and a dozen other problems with the early Guard/Miko story) and I don't accept the answers because all of the answers are daft. I'm sorry, but that's the long and short of it.

[Fyraltari]

I've been too busy dealing with my intense shame of incorrectly stating that Miko is not actually Batman (possibly Batman+) with a different gender. :smallfrown:


Let’s see, dead parents, check. Martial aptitude, check. Moral intransigence, check. Willigness to act outside the confines of the law to uphold it, check. Never, ever gives up? Check. Never seen in a room at the same time as Batman, check.

Sounds plausible.

[woweedd]

I literally just accepted an answer from Grey Wolf here, woweedd. There are some cases I look at the story and say, "hmm, that's strange/interesting" and bring it up and some of the answers are plausible and some of the answers are not (e.g, why X parents are dead.) And then there are other cases where I point out an inconsistency (e.g, no use of sending/teleport/wind-walk and a dozen other problems with the early Guard/Miko story) and I don't accept the answers because all of the answers are daft. I'm sorry, but that's the long and short of it.
I mean...I can answer that with "Shojo is a paranoid fool, who treats other people as pawns, and whose inability to trust his own subordinates, or, indeed, anyone, contributed greatly to his eventual downfall". Roy says as much in-story.

[Lacuna Caster]

I mean...I can answer that with "Shojo is a paranoid fool, who treats other people as pawns, and whose inability to trust his own subordinates, or, indeed, anyone, contributed greatly to his eventual downfall". Roy says as much in-story.
Shojo being various degrees of bat**** crazy might be a sufficient explanation if Shojo were the only actor here. As I have reiterated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23589987&viewfull=1#post23589987) literally dozens of times, he isn't.

[woweedd]

Shojo being various degrees of bat**** crazy might be a sufficient explanation if Shojo were the only actor here. As I have reiterated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576774-Why-didn-t-Shojo-just-send-his-wizard-to-fetch-the-order&p=23589987&viewfull=1#post23589987) literally dozens of times, he isn't.
In order:
Shojo is a good politician. That doesn't make him a genius at anything other then politics, because intelligence, contrary to what some works of fiction seem to tink, isn't readily transferable like that. Shojo understands his fellow nobles, but he doesn't understand his Paladins, at least, not nearly as well as he thinks he does. He arrested the Order as a power play. By putting them on trial, and then rigging it in their favor, he assured that there was no chance of them leaking his secrets, as it would also directly implicit theme in rigging the trial. Sojo has one, and only one, Wizard capable of casting Teleport, so it's entirely plausible the dude was needed for something else and as for Eugence not getting involved...Eugene is not in a position of power over Shojo in any way.

[Lacuna Caster]

Shojo is a good politician. That doesn't make him a genius at anything other then politics, because intelligence, contrary to what some works of fiction seem to tink, isn't readily transferable like that...
It is pretty transferrable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)), actually, but again, this is a trap. I either point out all the ways in which your arguments are wrong, and then I am a Bad Thread Derailer, or I tell you to just read the original thread, and then I am a Bad Faith Debater. So no, I am not playing this game.

[woweedd]

It is pretty transferrable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_(psychometrics)), actually, but again, this is a trap. I either point out all the ways in which your arguments are wrong, and then I am a Bad Thread Derailer, or I tell you to just read the original thread, and then I am a Bad Faith Debater. So no, I am not playing this game.
The G Factor is not a universally-accepted hypothesis, and, in any case, there are countless real-world examples of people who are highly intelligent within their field who turn out to be credulous and incompetent outside of it. Indeed, in my experience, people who are experts in one field have a higher tendency to be condescending asshats to experts in others, treating all other fields as merely specilazied sunsets of their own. That said, please proceed. Wouldn’t be the worst thread derail i’ve seen, I assure you.

[Goblin_Priest]

I mean...I can answer that with "Shojo is a paranoid fool, who treats other people as pawns, and whose inability to trust his own subordinates, or, indeed, anyone, contributed greatly to his eventual downfall". Roy says as much in-story.

Yea, but Roy's wrong. Shojo's paranoya is the only reason he lasted so long, able to do all the good he did until then. Without the Order there to protect him, Shojo's doing, Hinjo would have been assassinated moment after his accession.

[Aveline]

Using the legal system as a personal tool to get the Order into his fold (and then failing to conceal it) is what led to Shojo's murder, and even had Miko not acted, Hinjo surely would have had him deposed. So I do not give him points for providing Hinjo with a bodyguard after his succession. And it is Hinjo who chose Roy as a bodyguard anyway.

Edit: To make a more relevant point, I don't actually think Shojo was all that brilliant.

[woweedd]

Yea, but Roy's wrong. Shojo's paranoya is the only reason he lasted so long, able to do all the good he did until then. Without the Order there to protect him, Shojo's doing, Hinjo would have been assassinated moment after his accession.
Paranoia about the nobles. The problem is that he extended it to his Paladins, and even The Order, which is suboptimal for someone whose supposed to be a leader.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Paranoia about the nobles. The problem is that he extended it to his Paladins, and even The Order, which is suboptimal for someone whose supposed to be a leader.

Paranoia is not something you can simply turn on and off. Not to mention that for most of his life, "the Paladins" was just a subset of "The Nobles", a subset with all the advantages of the nobles, plus martial training and magic. So honestly, a healthy amount of paranoia about them was probably the reason Shojo was still in power by the time the Order was onvolved.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

The G Factor is not a universally-accepted hypothesis...
Neither is evolution, but it remains a fact. Not that this is necessarily apropos to a magical universe, and it's perfectly possible for individuals to be experts in one field and uneducated in others, but again, this does not rest on Shojo's individual decision-making. Just about every other senior member of the Guard has to be wearing giant floppy clown shoes in order for events to go down like this.


That said, please proceed. Wouldn’t be the worst thread derail i’ve seen, I assure you.
Nope, not going to do that. If you really want to, you can mosy over to the other thread and post some other question, preferably having actually read the entire exchange, but I am telling you that this is not a new set of arguments.

[Dion]

I think Durkon should have vampirized the various outsiders who decide if Eugene is to be allowed into his afterlife. That way Eugene wouldn’t have interfered with Shojo. That way, Miko wouldn’t have been sent to collect TOotS.

[Fish]

Getting back to the original question:

Presuming Protection from Sunlight is something like Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) then it must be cast on a creature, with a casting time of 1 standard action. To make Zz’dtri a vampire would require a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 11 rounds of blood draining (presuming Zz’dtri has a CON score of 7-11 and Greg drains 1-4 CON per round; the average time, given a CON of 7, is 3 rounds). He would have to do this while Nale is attacking him, and hope that a) Nale can’t dispel his own Protection from Sunlight or steal the staff or get help, and b) Nale doesn’t interrupt his staff-casting of Protection from Sunlight on Z. Once Z is vamped, Greg has one round (Sean Connery: “And one round only”) to get that Protection spell right before Z is destroyed.

True, Nale is weakened and his backstab wouldn’t work on a vampire, but it doesn’t sound like a high-percentage play. (Maybe the better plan is “dominate Nale, then vamp Z,” but that’s obviously a question of “why don’t all characters choose optimal strategies?”)

In any case, Greg’s plan required him to have a safe place in which to investigate and study the spells in the staff — and he knew of Elan’s plan to call for Julio Scoundrél’s aid, though not whether that plan would work. (After all, Durkon sent that message.) He might have done this using Domination, but let’s not forget: deceiving the living with a semblance of life is his “thing.” He probably preferred a plan of deception to one involving brute force. There may also have been an advantage to keeping his cards close to his chest in the event a Plan B or C was needed.

[Fyraltari]

Also ditching the Order robbs him of his chance to kill Roy in person, something he was clearly looking forward to.

[Jasdoif]

The G Factor is not a universally-accepted hypothesis, and, in any case, there are countless real-world examples of people who are highly intelligent within their field who turn out to be credulous and incompetent outside of it. Indeed, in my experience, people who are experts in one field have a higher tendency to be condescending asshats to experts in others, treating all other fields as merely specilazied sunsets of their own.Pretty much. While I do believe there's a general capacity of learning, application of that gets nebulous beyond simple and directly-observable tasks; a lot of real-world skills also involve a great deal of knowing what could happen, what the symptoms of those possibilities are, how to cause/prevent specific things from occurring, the risks/costs/rewards involved in doing so, how those changes interact with the rest of the system....

Which absolutely can be learned (that's what experience is), but requires time and dedication in actual pursuit...and there's far too many skills out there for one person to realistically be an expert in all of them. Trying to apply already-earned skills/experience in a different situation is of course a natural response (the old "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" scenario), and to some extent that works (even if only in the sense of "okay, that was the wrong thing to do")...but that's dependent on direct feedback. If you never see the end result, you're not going to know if you misapplied your skill (if you never see any problems from treating everything as a nail, why would you ever question using a hammer?). And this only gets worse in the case of a complicated leadership hierarchy, where there's an entire set of people who (theoretically) have directly relevant experience, are charged with carrying out what the guy at the top says, and have an incentive to silently deal with errors from their leadership.

And that's before considering that things like "don't look responsible for your failures" are themselves skills. Or, for that matter, any application of social skill around a field.

[hroþila]

See Neil deGrasse Tyson like every time he talks about the humanities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

See Neil deGrasse Tyson like every time he talks about the humanities.

Or any end point of Peter's Principle.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

I think Durkon should have vampirized anyone who could have warned the council that they would be attacked by vampires.

So, you know, literally everyone capable of a sending spell.

[mjasghar]

My opinion is - we have been led to believe that all dwarf vampires get spirits from Hel
This may be due to the nature of the pantheons that fantasy lotr type dwarves when allowed in a world are always under the northern pantheon since others have different ideas about dwarves
This seems to override any local pantheon authority - though as I’ve discussed before it raises issues about dwarves switching pantheons or even leaving the northern continent fullstop
However it’s my opinion that any vampire created in the West falls under Nergal - unless there is a specific reason like dwarves
Moreover, as an elf subrace Z may well be always under Western influence the same way dwarves are
This does however raise the issue that elves are seemingly happy to leave their homeland for other continents. My guess is they don’t have the same Bet issue and generally get a good deal for being elves as it’s hinted they get favouritism
So Greg waited until he was in the North until he made spawn so all would be Hel spirits

[hamishspence]

My opinion is - we have been led to believe that all dwarf vampires get spirits from Hel
This may be due to the nature of the pantheons that fantasy lotr type dwarves when allowed in a world are always under the northern pantheon since others have different ideas about dwarves
This seems to override any local pantheon authority - though as I’ve discussed before it raises issues about dwarves switching pantheons or even leaving the northern continent fullstop
However it’s my opinion that any vampire created in the West falls under Nergal - unless there is a specific reason like dwarves

Nope - The Giant stated that the specific reason is that Durkon is Northern:



There is absolutely zero difference between Malack and Durkon's vampirizations, with the sole exception that Hel made the spirit sitting in Durkon's head while Nergal made the one that was sitting in Malack's. Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain, though she wouldn't take a personal interest in just any person because they wouldn't be a powerful cleric.

Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle. She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires. The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell.

[woweedd]

See Neil deGrasse Tyson like every time he talks about the humanities.
I can think of a better example, but it kinda breaks the forum rules.

[Dion]

If Durkon had vampirized Thor, then Thor could have vampirized TDO, and all the problems would be solved easily.,

[Peelee]

See Neil deGrasse Tyson like every time he talks about the humanities.
Or any time he talks about the sciences. For as accomplished as he is, dude is amazingly inept at affable engagement.

I can think of a better example, but it kinda breaks the forum rules.
Dang, now I'm intrigued.

[Dion]

I can think of a better example, but it kinda breaks the forum rules.

Durkon should have vampirized that guy. Maybe he would stop tweeting.

[mjasghar]

My contention was ALL dwarves are under northern pantheon
This was raised by me in other arguments about the nature of vampires in OoTS and in discussions about the Bet - specifically can dwarves get away by worshiping non northern pantheons

[Xyril]

Paranoia is not something you can simply turn on and off. Not to mention that for most of his life, "the Paladins" was just a subset of "The Nobles", a subset with all the advantages of the nobles, plus martial training and magic.

Speaking of which, I remember if it was ever explicitly clear, but I get the sense that Shojo was responsible for the decision to allow commoners to join the Sapphire Guard. In real life, pretty much any leader attempting to dilute the power of an entrenched nobility in such a way was putting his neck on the line, so Shojo's survival is pretty much a testament to his useful paranoia.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Speaking of which, I don't think it was ever explicitly clear, but I get the sense that Shojo was responsible for the decision to allow commoners to join the Sapphire Guard.

I think it is fairly explicitly spelled out at the end of How the Paladin got his Scar.

Grey Wolf

[Xyril]

I think it is fairly explicitly spelled out at the end of How the Paladin got his Scar.

Grey Wolf

Ah, thanks for letting me know. I never bought most of the books.

[Xyril]

Hel does create the vampire spirits but that does not give her dominion over them. They are free-willed individuals just like the living.


I understand that. My point is that the act of creation might create a bigger bond. For example, being raised by your biological parents won't necessarily install any sense of loyalty for give them any sort of influence, but I would imagine on the aggregate that people who are raised by parents (biological or not) are more likely to be very loyal to the parents who raised them than to any randomly selected set of parents.


I'll give you a rundown: when Hel creates a vampire she gets a few moments to cram their head with knowledge (language and her plan mostly apparently), the vampires then absorbs their first memory, the moment in their life where they felt the absolute worst. Since the vampire has never had any kind of childhood, they have absolutely no emotionnal maturity that would help them deal with that suffering, the result is that their personality forms around that moment of anger/despair/suffering and thus becomes evil (just look at the Lower Planes' mottos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)) and as they absorb memories in no particular order this memory colors all the others (why did Durkon* think Thor was a "deceitful untrustworthy wrench (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)"? Because each time he viewed a memory of Thor's Clergy teaching how caring he is, he remembered his high priest betraying Durkon).

Thanks for the rundown and the links.



The end result is a creature that has all the life-story of the host but twisted, as if view through a faulty window meaning their personnality is the same as the host but with all the worst parts mazgnified and all the good one diminished.


But how do you define "good" or "bad"? For example, religious fervor in real life can manifest in very good or very bad ways. If you have a particularly fervent mortal--like Durkon--whose religious devotion prompted him to act very selflessly, then turning him evil might be as simple as changing that allegiance to an evil deity, but couldn't it also be done by deemphasizing that trait altogether. For example, other traits are much less ambiguously good or bad--for example, the aforementioned selflessness. Instead of looking through Durkon's memories, absorbing his selflessness and sense of duty to others, and twisting it around in some creatively evil way, he simply doesn't pick up those traits at all, instead viewing those memories with resentment. What's to say that a corrupted heroic atheist (or whatever passes for an atheist in a world where the gods are provably real) wouldn't result in villain protagonist whose idea of "heroism" is corrupted by his devotion to an evil goddess?



See above, what the deity creating the vampire thinks is irrelevant next to what the vampire want.


Looking above, I am reminded of that bit you said about the deity having the chance to cram that spirit full of knowledge being letting it loose. Free will doesn't mean zero influence by external forces.



Where does that second option come from? Nobody proposed that, what "incredibly devout worshippers" are you talking about?


You made a point about an-[other deity] created deity being no more likely to be an agent of another deity than any random mortal on the crew of the Mechane. I was pointing precisely why it was more likely: Because Hel, in her role as goddess of the undead, has one additional, temporally proximate opportunity.

Think of it this way. You're at a trial. All parties involved are equally influential--in other words, they're all equally likely to have, for example, employed a juror or a close friend of a juror, or appeared on some talk show that the juror watched, or run into a juror at the gym. You have no reason to believe that any juror specifically had more prior contact with one party or another.

Now imagine you just found out that, after the jury pool was selected, but before the jury was impaneled, one of the involved parties took the opportunity to have coffee with several of the jurors. This doesn't negate the jurors' free will, nor does it mean that the party would necessarily get what they wanted. However, if you were representing one of the other parties--one of the ones without the benefit of a recent talk over coffee--would you want any of these potential jurors?



Why would a creature whose only (or nearly so) memory is one of suffering care for anyone or anything in the world?


Because they're a part of the world, and they're not suffering anymore. This isn't a Crystal-golem sort of situation. Durkula is shaped by Durkon's suffering--or more accurately, his own suffering from experiencing Durkon's memories through his own, twisted lens. That is what shaped his resentment and his hatred of everyone in Durkon's life. But he's enjoying his existence as a vampire.

Malaack is the obvious counterexample. He said he felt no particular affection to the people in his mortal life, and his alliance with Tarquin implies a certain indifference to the plight of the faceless masses, but the fact of his friendship with Torquin et al, as well as Durkon, and his desire to build an enduring empire for Nergal demonstrates that hating much of the world doesn't mean that you don't "care for anyone or anything in the world," or as you also imply, the world itself.



I'm pretty sure that Roy's soul was created by the Northern god of life (so Freya goddess of fertility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)) who put it inside his body just like Hel put Durkon*'s soul inside Durkon body as part of her duties as goddess of death.


I was going by Thor's speech--I think you can find it yourself--about how multiple quiddities were required to create "real, honest-to-us
independent mortals." I have no idea what Freya's role would be--maybe the pantheons had to get together to create the system through which the individual deities of life create souls, or maybe Freya's just a caretaker who oversees the transfer of new souls into new beings. We don't know. But we do know--or at least, what you have stipulated--is that Hel has the power to use her role to have some impact on each individual soul, even if we might quibble about how much that influence may be. In contrast, I don't recall any evidence that Freya can or would use her role to exert undue influence over new life. In fact, given what we have heard about the rules deities abide by, it seems like it would be a serious breach to allow Freya to have undue influence over all living beings that could potentially restrict the access of other gods to worshipers.



You do not know that. Thor would not grant Durkon* anymore so he needed a new patron and Hel offered both powers and a plan to make the people he hated suffer. She was the logical choice, that doesn't mean that he was supernaturally compelled to serve her over, say her brother Fenrir god of monsters.




Being worried about something does not mean that something is real.


True, but in a setting where we lack the ability to conduct empirical testing, it is sometimes the best evidence in favor of a hypothesis--particularly when there is no evidence at all specifically supporting the opposite proposition.



Durkon felt "the negative energy squirming around" which could mean that all he did would be negated just because negative energy or mean that he was not used to being made of negative energy rather than positive one, or nothing at all. With the fate of the world in the balance Durkon did not take any risk.


As you would say, "you do not know that." It's what you inferred from the text, and it's a perfectly reasonable inference... as is mine.

This has been an interesting discussion, but if you're starting to play evidence-lawyer, I suspect our goals are beginning to diverge. I enjoy your perspective, and I enjoy sharing mine, and if you feel the same I'm happy to continue this talk until I get yelled at for slacking off at work. If you're expecting somebody to "win" or be "proven right," then let me just say that it's been a pleasure talking to you and that I hope to do so again on an entirely different topic.


What does that have to do with the question of wether non-cleric vampires would be loyal to Hel?

Umm, nothing at all. You asked a two part question--first, why would someone be loyal to someone other than Hel, and second, even if they were, why would that other deity not support Hel's plan. This part was addressing that second point. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Xyril]

Yea, but Roy's wrong. Shojo's paranoya is the only reason he lasted so long, able to do all the good he did until then. Without the Order there to protect him, Shojo's doing, Hinjo would have been assassinated moment after his accession.

There's no reason you both can't be right. Perhaps Shojo was simply in an untenable position: too paranoid, and he brings about his own eventual downfall (at a fairly ripe old age, though), don't be paranoid enough, and he never even gets to that point in his life. There are a lot of books--for that matter, there are a lot of real life engineering challenges as well--where the whole point is that there's no clear right answer (or at least, none that anyone's found yet), and your Odysseus is basically stuck in a situation where moving away from one danger necessarily means moving closer to another. As far as I could tell, the only person who might done substantially better in that position would have to a paladin's level of moral fortitude when it comes to long term goals, Haley's level of moral flexibility when it comes to politicking and wrangling the nobles, and O-Chul's remarkable ability to keep going when any reasonable person would just die, because no matter how astute you are politically, Azure City seems like the sort of place where being anything resembling a reformer or an idealist gets you assassinated.


The vampire seems to reflect the person their host was. Since Durkon was fanatically loyal to Thor, HPOH was just as fanatically loyal to Hel. Roy would presumably not feel the same loyalty, no more then he feels loyalty to the gods who birthed him to begin with. And, of course, that's all assuming Durkon* can take on 5 Near-Epic adventures, plus a whole crew of NPCs, who are also presumably above-average as NPCs go, in no way a safe assumption. Frankly, the best move for Durkon would probably be...Well, what he did. Namely, pretend to be his living self and trick them into giving him a lift.

I'm completely in agreement on that last bit. To me, his choices are obvious, even if we assume for the sake of argument that he--and Hel--know definitive answers to all of our questions about the nature of vampire free will, the mechanics of vampire thralls, etc., and that all of those answers are such that the "turn them all" plan is optimized. (In other words, he can control nearly unlimited thralls, all of those thralls are 100% as effective as a living, free-willed being tricked into helping, and that creating more undead doesn't create an opening for other, hostile deities to exert influence.) The fact is, the current plan was working, any alternative, violence-based plan carried substantial uncertainties and would, at best, work slightly faster in a situation where there was zero advantage to getting to the Godsmoot any faster than "in the nick of time." Plus, picking Plan Violence would necessarily preclude a return to the original plan, whereas continuing with the original plan still left an opening to implement Plan Violence later, if the tactical assessment changed.

The vampire-spirit motivation talk has just been more interesting. Rich gave us just enough in the comic to enable to plot--and maybe a bit more in his meta-comments that I might have missed--and it's been interesting to see how different people view this, particularly since it intersects an area of real life that is unknown or debatable to most people.



I think Durkon should have vampirized anyone who could have warned the council that they would be attacked by vampires.

So, you know, literally everyone capable of a sending spell.

Tactically, that makes a lot of sense, and he actually did so within the constraints he was under. (Though it was less "let's vamp all the clerics in the Creed of the Stone who could cast sending" and more "let's vamp all of the Creed of the Stone because we just found a great loophole in the Godsmoot rules.) However, because of those rules, there were over a dozen clerics who could potentially cast sending who were beyond his direct reach. Remember, the pro-Hel (well, pro-apocalypse anyway) clerics only helped Hel when the anti-apocalypse clerics demonstrated that they could help the order without breaking the rules, something neither was willing to do. If Hel's delegation tried to neutralize the anti-Hel clerics and bodyguards who might cast sending, they would be facing off against half of the Godsmoot, plus the Order, all at once--and this is the best case scenario. More likely, the pro-Hel delegations would be helping--IIRC, the rules specifically obligated all parties to respond in the event of an attack on one, meaning that even inaction would put them in breach of the rules.

Perhaps most importantly, Hel has specifically stated that her plan required that everyone obey the rules, or that her rivals be the ones who break them first. This implies that Durkula taking that first step towards breaking them and attacking the protected clerics would likely lead to a substantial strategic cost, one that would far outweigh any minor tactical advantage from preventing an earlier warning.

[Psyren]

I'll go with some combination of "he needed to convince both Roy and the audience that he was really Durkon" plus "there's no way to vamp someone at high noon in the middle of a desert and buff them fast enough to save them" plus "he just didn't like Z that much or think he'd be that useful."

Also, with basically no spells left, what was he supposed to do - stand there grappling/draining Z while Nale did his taxes? Of course he used the quickest means available to dispatch one of them before they could do to him what they had just gotten through doing to his much more powerful vampire boss. After all, if Z had teleport prepared, he could simply blip out of Durkon's grasp (no somatic component.)

[Fyraltari]

I understand that. My point is that the act of creation might create a bigger bond. For example, being raised by your biological parents won't necessarily install any sense of loyalty for give them any sort of influence, but I would imagine on the aggregate that people who are raised by parents (biological or not) are more likely to be very loyal to the parents who raised them than to any randomly selected set of parents.
Why, yes and that is the problem, Hel creates the vampires but does not raise (necromantic powers aside) them. TO go by your analogy she would be like a biological parent who never interferred with the child's childhood.




Thanks for the rundown and the links.
You're welcome, I also suggest taking a look at Jaxzan Proditor's signature.





But how do you define "good" or "bad"?
In this particular case, by good I meant"empathic" or "caring" and by evil "destructive" or "selfish" as this seems to be how these words are treated in D&D.


For example, religious fervor in real life can manifest in very good or very bad ways. If you have a particularly fervent mortal--like Durkon--whose religious devotion prompted him to act very selflessly, then turning him evil might be as simple as changing that allegiance to an evil deity, but couldn't it also be done by deemphasizing that trait altogether.
Yes? In this case it seems to have done both, Durkon* had some loyalty to Hel, but he prioritized his own desires first, like when he decided to ambush Roy in Firmament, when Hel told him point blank she didn't care.


For example, other traits are much less ambiguously good or bad--for example, the aforementioned selflessness. Instead of looking through Durkon's memories, absorbing his selflessness and sense of duty to others, and twisting it around in some creatively evil way, he simply doesn't pick up those traits at all, instead viewing those memories with resentment.
Yes, that is what I mean by twisting the memories, picking up the bad and not the good. We know from Malack that a vampire is capable of love so my guess is that Durkon* had he managed to absorb every memory at his own pace would have picked on some of Durkon's selflessness (one might argue that he already did since he cared about Hel who is another person), but not much. Jus like he started picking up on his accent without noticing (somethin' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), tha dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html), plainly quoting Thirden (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html))

What's to say that a corrupted heroic atheist (or whatever passes for an atheist in a world where the gods are provably real) wouldn't result in villain protagonist whose idea of "heroism" is corrupted by his devotion to an evil goddess?
Where would the devotion come from? You can't twist an abscence of something into that something.


Looking above, I am reminded of that bit you said about the deity having the chance to cram that spirit full of knowledge being letting it loose. Free will doesn't mean zero influence by external forces.
So? If they could impart knowldege that would make vampires theur dedicated servant then every vampire would serve a god.




You made a point about an-[other deity] created deity being no more likely to be an agent of another deity than any random mortal on the crew of the Mechane. I was pointing precisely why it was more likely: Because Hel, in her role as goddess of the undead, has one additional, temporally proximate opportunity.

Think of it this way. You're at a trial. All parties involved are equally influential--in other words, they're all equally likely to have, for example, employed a juror or a close friend of a juror, or appeared on some talk show that the juror watched, or run into a juror at the gym. You have no reason to believe that any juror specifically had more prior contact with one party or another.

Now imagine you just found out that, after the jury pool was selected, but before the jury was impaneled, one of the involved parties took the opportunity to have coffee with several of the jurors. This doesn't negate the jurors' free will, nor does it mean that the party would necessarily get what they wanted. However, if you were representing one of the other parties--one of the ones without the benefit of a recent talk over coffee--would you want any of these potential jurors?
That analogy does not map to the situation said party could have bribed the juror, but in the case that concerns us, I don't see with what, I don't see why and more imoortantly I don't see that the relevant death god knows anything is going on. I mean for any of this to work, Nergal or Rat or whoever would have to know that Hel even has a high priest, where he is, how she intend to vote and be allowed to order their minions to attack the high priest of another deity during a period of truce. And if they could do that wouldn't they also target thz high priests of other gods? I mean the death gods of the other Pantheon are not in the same position as Hel where they have to wait for luck to provide them with servants, they already have established churches and all.





Because they're a part of the world
So what? They don't plan on blowing up with it.

and they're not suffering anymore.
Emotionnal trauma does not work that way. They (or at least the oldeest among that particular patch of vampires, Durkon*) are still angry.

This isn't a Crystal-golem sort of situation. Durkula is shaped by Durkon's suffering--or more accurately, his own suffering from experiencing Durkon's memories through his own, twisted lens. That is what shaped his resentment and his hatred of everyone in Durkon's life. But he's enjoying his existence as a vampire.
So? He is enjoying bringing pain and death to the people he hates and resents and even then plans to go on undying after this plan is done.


Malaack is the obvious counterexample. He said he felt no particular affection to the people in his mortal life, and his alliance with Tarquin implies a certain indifference to the plight of the faceless masses, but the fact of his friendship with Torquin et al, as well as Durkon, and his desire to build an enduring empire for Nergal demonstrates that hating much of the world doesn't mean that you don't "care for anyone or anything in the world," or as you also imply, the world itself.
Malack (that's how it is spelled) was two-hundred years old, he had ample time to absorb all of his host's meory and make more of his own than the host ever had, he has had time to make connections and friendships of his own. He is by every meaning of the world of the word an adult. Durkon* and his spawns have not had that time. It's simple, really, you care about something because you associate it with pleasant emotions, love, friendship, home, what have you ; the vampires of the godsmoot plot have no material to make these associations.




I was going by Thor's speech--I think you can find it yourself--about how multiple quiddities were required to create "real, honest-to-us independent mortals." I have no idea what Freya's role would be--maybe the pantheons had to get together to create the system through which the individual deities of life create souls, or maybe Freya's just a caretaker who oversees the transfer of new souls into new beings. We don't know. But we do know--or at least, what you have stipulated--is that Hel has the power to use her role to have some impact on each individual soul, even if we might quibble about how much that influence may be. In contrast, I don't recall any evidence that Freya can or would use her role to exert undue influence over new life. In fact, given what we have heard about the rules deities abide by, it seems like it would be a serious breach to allow Freya to have undue influence over all living beings that could potentially restrict the access of other gods to worshipers.
Then why do you assume that Hel's "influence" goes that far for undead beings?







True, but in a setting where we lack the ability to conduct empirical testing, it is sometimes the best evidence in favor of a hypothesis--particularly when there is no evidence at all specifically supporting the opposite proposition.
From the double quote, I guess you meant to type something in response to the "logical choice" there?

I would consider the fact that the vampire "re-asserting himself as he was prior to #1130" would negate the extremely emotional, climatic moment moment that came just before evidence enough. I mean, how would that make any sense? "If you have my body and all of my joys and sorrows, you're me. For like five minutes and then you're you again, I guess?"




As you would say, "you do not know that." It's what you inferred from the text, and it's a perfectly reasonable inference... as is mine.

This has been an interesting discussion, but if you're starting to play evidence-lawyer, I suspect our goals are beginning to diverge.
No, there is part of a knee-jerk reaction there on my part, from the previous discussions I have had with people asserting that it was impossible for a vampire to be good, my bad.

I enjoy your perspective, and I enjoy sharing mine, and if you feel the same I'm happy to continue this talk until I get yelled at for slacking off at work. If you're expecting somebody to "win" or be "proven right," then let me just say that it's been a pleasure talking to you and that I hope to do so again on an entirely different topic.
No, no, this is fun and I appreciate your perspective as well.




Umm, nothing at all. You asked a two part question--first, why would someone be loyal to someone other than Hel, and second, even if they were, why would that other deity not support Hel's plan. This part was addressing that second point. Sorry if I was unclear.
Okay, but I still don't understand your response. Why would the death deities of the Southern and Wetern Pantheons be worried about hel upsetting the status quo of the Northern Pantheons? These gods can't do anything to them for fear of a new Snarl. And if she succeeds that means more undead in the next world which means more opportunity for them to get power, sounds like a win-win. And besides, how would they even know what she is planning?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You're welcome, I also suggest taking a look at Jaxzan Proditor's signature.

Yes, check out my signature for all things vampire!

[rferries]

To respond to the OP - a vampire created from Zz'drti might not have been loyal to Hel - it could have been loyal to the elven god of death, or to Nergal (since the elven gods vote as part of the West, I believe).

[Kish]

He could also have been loyal to no gods at all.

[martianmister]

Creating a paladin order to protect the gates, but making it exlusive to aristocracy. What does it say about Soon?

[hroþila]

Creating a paladin order to protect the gates, but making it exlusive to aristocracy. What does it say about Soon?
That he was the privileged product of a feudal society.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That he was short on funds and preferred people capable of paying for their own stuff.

Alternatively: that he gave titles and lands to anyone that became a Paladin, and power begets power.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Or that objectively the best fighters around were all nobles.

[urbanwolf]

It's possible that HPOH did not know he would need teleport at the time. The Godsmoot was likely called in response to the gate being destroyed. That had only just happened. Without a mission HPOH might of just wanted to cause the most harm he is only a few hours old at most

[Fyraltari]

It's possible that HPOH did not know he would need teleport at the time. The Godsmoot was likely called in response to the gate being destroyed. That had only just happened. Without a mission HPOH might of just wanted to cause the most harm he is only a few hours old at most
His first conversation with Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) on the material Plane doesnt make sense if the plan wasn't already hatched.

It's entirely possible that the gods had agreed ahead of time that a Moot would be called as soon as all but one Gate were destroyed. Or that they are just that fast.

[Riftwolf]

His first conversation with Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) on the material Plane doesnt make sense if the plan wasn't already hatched.

It's entirely possible that the gods had agreed ahead of time that a Moot would be called as soon as all but one Gate were destroyed. Or that they are just that fast.

That comic raises some timing questions I hadn't considered before. Did Hel get to tell Durkula the plan when his thralldom ended, or was he given the plan when he was sired, before the Gate was destroyed?
It's possible that the fate of Girards Gate was known to the Gods for a while before it was actually destroyed. At a guess, once Girards defences dropped (Familicide), the prescient Gods (Odin, Tiamat, Rooster) made a prediction of how the Gate would fall (I'm running through the various scenarios and not many would save the Gate), and Hel uploaded with the plans (she'd had centuries to formulate them) as soon as Durkula got quick-vamped. That he got his free will back, and gained transport, was lampshaded as serendipitous.

[urbanwolf]

His first conversation with Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) on the material Plane doesnt make sense if the plan wasn't already hatched.

It's entirely possible that the gods had agreed ahead of time that a Moot would be called as soon as all but one Gate were destroyed. Or that they are just that fast.

That might only be the first talk we saw them have.

That take place after he had time to prepare spells.(the restoration and the regenerate) It's hard to say how much time passed(at least an hour).

HPOH might have better luck with commune than Durkon. Hel might of told the plan right to Durkon, maybe when a Godsmoot is called all gods get to talk to their High Priest directly. Otherwise how would the NPC clerics know what was going on.

[Fyraltari]

That comic raises some timing questions I hadn't considered before. Did Hel get to tell Durkula the plan when his thralldom ended, or was he given the plan when he was sired, before the Gate was destroyed?
The latter (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056).

That he got his free will back, and gained transport, was lampshaded as serendipitous.
His very existence at that moment is serendipitous

That might only be the first talk we saw them have.
if it wasn't their first talk since he was on the ship he wouldn't be telling her that he was on the ship.


That take place after he had time to prepare spells.(the restoration and the regenerate) It's hard to say how much time passed(at least an hour).
What restoration and regenerate? And how does it matter how long he had already been on the ship? Are you proposing that he called her twice?