Helping my Battlemaster Player dip into spellcasting

[SmashedJuicebox]

Howdy!

My players have been 3rd level for a bit and they're all noobs.
My Half-Elf DEX Battlemaster is interested in going spellcasting in some way down the line (post 5th Level for extra attack)
I said that I wouldn't mind if they wanted to switch to EK, but they are really enjoying their manuevers.

I haven't played as a spellcasting class except for technically Moon Druid, so I need some advice for her.

Our party has a GOO Tomblock, and our Bard might multiclass into Warlock, so I would want to change it up.

Their character is a big researcher and (from memory) has a decent INT score. So Wizard would fit nicely. That's the class I know the least about. I've read online that Abj and War are great. But wanted to see someone were for this specific character.


Party Comp
Shep Druid
GOO Tomblock
Glamour Bard
Mastermind Rogue

[Rukelnikov]

If he just wants a dip, being half elf with good dex he should go Bladesinger.

[nickl_2000]

War Wizard would indeed be a very good fit for this character, as would Bladesinger (from SCAG) if they meet the qualifications.

However, there are two other really good options for this character that don't require multiclassing. The Magic Initiate Feat can give some quality utility cantrip and a spell once a day. The second is ritual casting. That gives a good feel for a spellcaster and a lot of out of combat utility. Check out both of those feats. They can also be available to the player at level 4 instead of waiting until 6.

[Man_Over_Game]

Howdy!

My players have been 3rd level for a bit and they're all noobs.
My Half-Elf DEX Battlemaster is interested in going spellcasting in some way down the line (post 5th Level for extra attack)
I said that I wouldn't mind if they wanted to switch to EK, but they are really enjoying their manuevers.

I haven't played as a spellcasting class except for technically Moon Druid, so I need some advice for her.

Our party has a GOO Tomblock, and our Bard might multiclass into Warlock, so I would want to change it up.

Their character is a big researcher and (from memory) has a decent INT score. So Wizard would fit nicely. That's the class I know the least about. I've read online that Abj and War are great. But wanted to see someone were for this specific character.


Party Comp
Shep Druid
GOO Tomblock
Glamour Bard
Mastermind Rogue

Here's another option: Don't choose.

A while back, I was trying to figure out how to make the Fighter more complex and adaptable for people who like that kind of stuff. I came to the conclusion that Action Surge is roughly equivalent to a Superiority Die.

By replacing Action Surge with 1 Superiority Die, gaining an additional Superiority Die whenever the Fighter gets an Extra Attack, you can add a lot of the complexity to a Fighter without breaking the balance.

I'd start with 2 maneuvers, gaining an extra die and 3 more maneuvers at level 17 (when the Fighter is supposed to get a second use of Action Surge). This way, your Fighter player can be an Eldritch Knight and still have maneuvers.

[SmashedJuicebox]

Here's another option: Don't choose.

A while back, I was trying to figure out how to make the Fighter more complex and adaptable for people who like that kind of stuff. I came to the conclusion that Action Surge is roughly equivalent to a Superiority Die.

By replacing Action Surge with 1 Superiority Die, gaining an additional Superiority Die whenever the Fighter gets an Extra Attack, you can add a lot of the complexity to a Fighter without breaking the balance.

I'd start with 2 maneuvers, gaining an extra die and 3 more maneuvers at level 17 (when the Fighter is supposed to get a second use of Action Surge). This way, your Fighter player can be an Eldritch Knight and still have maneuvers.

Ooohhhh interesting.
So
It would be
Eldritch Knight
Level 3 1 Die and 2 maneuvers
Level 5 2 Dice/2 Man
Level 11 3 Dice/2 Man
Level 17 4 Dice/ 5 Man
But losing Action Surge

[stoutstien]

Here's another option: Don't choose.

A while back, I was trying to figure out how to make the Fighter more complex and adaptable for people who like that kind of stuff. I came to the conclusion that Action Surge is roughly equivalent to a Superiority Die.

By replacing Action Surge with 1 Superiority Die, gaining an additional Superiority Die whenever the Fighter gets an Extra Attack, you can add a lot of the complexity to a Fighter without breaking the balance.

I'd start with 2 maneuvers, gaining an extra die and 3 more maneuvers at level 17 (when the Fighter is supposed to get a second use of Action Surge). This way, your Fighter player can be an Eldritch Knight and still have maneuvers.
So action surge= 1 die +1 die per extra atrack.? Hmm do they follow the increase in size like battle master sub class?

[Man_Over_Game]

So action surge= 1 die +1 die per extra atrack.? Hmm do they follow the increase in size like battle master sub class?

I had them increase in size at level 17. That way, they're constantly behind the Battlemaster, just enough to provide incentive to play the subclass.

[stoutstien]

I had them increase in size at level 17. That way, they're constantly behind the Battlemaster just enough to provide incentive to play the subclass. as a BM this would be a solid option. Trading once a short rest burst for 2 more dice per short rest and for more flexibility in maneuvers.

[Blood of Gaea]

Here's another option: Don't choose.

A while back, I was trying to figure out how to make the Fighter more complex and adaptable for people who like that kind of stuff. I came to the conclusion that Action Surge is roughly equivalent to a Superiority Die.

By replacing Action Surge with 1 Superiority Die, gaining an additional Superiority Die whenever the Fighter gets an Extra Attack, you can add a lot of the complexity to a Fighter without breaking the balance.

I'd start with 2 maneuvers, gaining an extra die and 3 more maneuvers at level 17 (when the Fighter is supposed to get a second use of Action Surge). This way, your Fighter player can be an Eldritch Knight and still have maneuvers.
A single maneuver is in no way as strong as an extra action. Especially for a Fighter who can be getting more attacks than most other characters.

A combat die might get you a trip on saving throw + a die of damage. An action gets you 1-3 attacks, and then an opposed skill check to trip, by shoving.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yup!

The way I looked at it, a Superiority Die gives you access to Riposte, which is a conditional extra attack in a round that gains a bonus to its damage. I figured the bonus damage and an extra maneuver countered the condition, which left us with roughly the value of an Attack.

Action Surge is also the value of an Attack to a Fighter, increased by the number of Extra Attacks the Fighter gets.

So if an Action Surge with a single attack has roughly the same value as a Superiority Die, and the Action Surge increases in potency with each Extra Attack, I'd need to increase value of the Superiority Dice feature at the same rate. The solution was just to add a die for every Extra Attack feature.

Level 17 was tricky, which is when Action Surge doubles in value. At this point, someone Action Surging would have an effective 6 bonus attacks, and someone using Superiority Dice would have an effective 3, so I had to come up with a solution that would bridge that 3 bonus attack difference. I figured increasing the die size, adding another die, and adding 2-3 more maneuvers would be enough to cover that distance.

[stoutstien]

Yup!

The way I looked at it, a Superiority Die gives you access to Riposte, which is a conditional extra attack in a round that gains a bonus to its damage. I figured the bonus damage countered the condition, which left us with roughly the value of an Attack.

Action Surge is also the value of an Attack to a Fighter, increased by the number of Extra Attacks the Fighter gets.

So if an Action Surge with a single attack has roughly the same value as a Superiority Die, and the Action Surge increases in potency with each Extra Attack, the solution was to increase value of the Superiority Dice feature at the same rate. The solution was just to add a die for every Extra Attack feature.

Level 17 was tricky, which is when Action Surge doubles in value. At this point, someone Action Surging would have an effective 6 bonus attacks, and someone using Superiority Dice would have an effective 3, so I had to come up with a solution that would bridge that 3 bonus attack difference. I figured increasing the die size, adding another die, and adding 2-3 more maneuvers would be enough to cover that distance.
I think this is a good chassis for making the base fighter have more options. You could keep the level 17 action surge instead. I have a dmpc champion warforged at one of my tables I might play with this. Right now he mostly uses action surge just to play wario and shove everybody down.

[Contrast]

However, there are two other really good options for this character that don't require multiclassing. The Magic Initiate Feat can give some quality utility cantrip and a spell once a day. The second is ritual casting. That gives a good feel for a spellcaster and a lot of out of combat utility. Check out both of those feats. They can also be available to the player at level 4 instead of waiting until 6.

Ritual caster definitely would have been my suggestion, the only issue is that the party already contains a tomelock who should already be acquiring all rituals.

Another option might be to do it in reverse - swap to EK but pick up the Martial Adept feat.

Edit - Just to flesh out my thoughts, I don't think wizards makes a good dip unless your character is interested in it fluff wise. You get ritual casting which is good but then you may as well just take Ritual Caster and issue is tomelock.

Another option might be to create a magic item which can only be attuned to by fighters that acts as a Ring of Spell Storing. A Hat of Pretend Wizardry or something.

[stoutstien]

Howdy!

My players have been 3rd level for a bit and they're all noobs.
My Half-Elf DEX Battlemaster is interested in going spellcasting in some way down the line (post 5th Level for extra attack)
I said that I wouldn't mind if they wanted to switch to EK, but they are really enjoying their manuevers.

I haven't played as a spellcasting class except for technically Moon Druid, so I need some advice for her.

Our party has a GOO Tomblock, and our Bard might multiclass into Warlock, so I would want to change it up.

Their character is a big researcher and (from memory) has a decent INT score. So Wizard would fit nicely. That's the class I know the least about. I've read online that Abj and War are great. But wanted to see someone were for this specific character.


Party Comp
Shep Druid
GOO Tomblock
Glamour Bard
Mastermind Rogue
Vote for dipping war wizard. the ability to use your reaction to increase saves/ac is amazing on a front line character.
Also going to net some offense offensive/ utility cantrips. What every the party needs they can fill.
Rituals are well covered in this party but they could nab some nice to have one's like floating disk or alarm.

[McSkrag]

Howdy!

My players have been 3rd level for a bit and they're all noobs.
My Half-Elf DEX Battlemaster is interested in going spellcasting in some way down the line (post 5th Level for extra attack)
I said that I wouldn't mind if they wanted to switch to EK, but they are really enjoying their manuevers.

I haven't played as a spellcasting class except for technically Moon Druid, so I need some advice for her.

Our party has a GOO Tomblock, and our Bard might multiclass into Warlock, so I would want to change it up.

Their character is a big researcher and (from memory) has a decent INT score. So Wizard would fit nicely. That's the class I know the least about. I've read online that Abj and War are great. But wanted to see someone were for this specific character.


Party Comp
Shep Druid
GOO Tomblock
Glamour Bard
Mastermind Rogue

Generally most people use battlemaster as a dip for 3-5 levels depending on if they need the extra attack.

Classes that have spells and synergize well with that would be Arcane Trickster rogue and/or wizard.

IMO Arcane Trickster is super fun to play since they get great in and out of combat skills.

If she has enough WIS, Ranger is also worth a look.

[Man_Over_Game]

Regardless of the Superior Fighter homebrew and how the OP feels about it, I think that the Eldritch Knight is the best case scenario here.



Party Comp
Shep Druid
GOO Tomblock
Glamour Bard
Mastermind Rogue

Look at how squishy that party is. Note how the closest thing the party has to a front line besides the player in question is the Druid subclass that relies the most on Concentration effects. AKA, not even the Druid will want to be attacked. Likely, this Fighter is going to be the center of attention in combat, and his party needs him to be as tanky as possible. War Mage has some merit, but it only blocks a single attack, and it requires a dip into a 1d6 hit die class.

Rather than that, I'd recommend Eldritch Knight over everything else. Access to Shield, while maintaining their 1d10 hit die and their Second Wind being upgraded per level, would give them the survivability that this team needs. Otherwise, one big boss is all it's going to take to make this party fold like a fancy house of cards.

[SmashedJuicebox]

Regardless of the Superior Fighter homebrew and how the OP feels about it, I think that the Eldritch Knight is the best case scenario here.



Look at how squishy that party is. Note how the closest thing the party has to a front line besides the player in question is the Druid subclass that relies the most on Concentration effects. AKA, not even the Druid will want to be attacked. Likely, this Fighter is going to be the center of attention in combat, and his party needs him to be as tanky as possible. War Mage has some merit, but it only blocks a single attack, and it requires a dip into a 1d6 hit die class.

Rather than that, I'd recommend Eldritch Knight over everything else. Access to Shield, while maintaining their 1d10 hit die and their Second Wind being upgraded per level, would give them the survivability that this team needs. Otherwise, one big boss is all it's going to take to make this party fold like a fancy house of cards.

That's my main concern about this whole party is. I'm taking it into account with amount of monsters. However, we have a couple of 18 CHA for the Bard and Warlock, the Rogue is 17 DEX. Their damage is a massive output.
As Level 3s they put a young green dragon to 5 HP in about 3 rounds.

Another player might be jumping in and I might have them go Paladin, Barb, or Cleric. Just for them to have something to absorb

We're doing LMoP, then Tyranny of Dragons. So they might get whooped.

[Vogie]

I'd highly encourage War Wizard over Bladesinger, because the weapon and other requirements of that class are really limiting

If you were mistaken and they have a high wisdom instead, the cleric domains for Arcana, Light, Death, and (to a lesser extent) Tempest are fairly blast-y for dips.