Sand Shape obscure question and a long standing gamble

[unclimainfame]

This is my first post ever on this forum, which I've lurked for the longest time, so please don't kill me if I'm breaking some rules (I've read the rules multiple times without finding anything against posts like this one but I may have overlooked something).

Years ago, during my very first D&D adventure I discovered the Sand Shaper. You all know how are those handbooks and I was probably too competitive at the time, so when I read it I immediately started thinking about the different mechanics I could abuse to screw with my master. Not cool, I know, but hey, I was young and stupid.

One of those broken mechanics was Shape Sand, which I don't think you need any explanation about. The thing is, in the table for Shape Sand it is said that you have to spend one minute for every point in the Difficulty Check for the volume you're shaping, and the very first one is a negative difficulty check of -5. Somewhere I read that if a difficulty check is responsible for the timing of the spell or ability or whatever and it is negative, the action is free, so I went to my master and told him I would've used it to make obstacles for charging enemy and screens to destroy line of sight against casters and such. We got into an argument, he allowed it, but I was also using wings of cover and other crazy stuff so I basically warped the campaign istantly and we decided to start over. I never did anything of the sort again (even though I still play casters to this day) and it's been way better.

Last Sunday, after playing 5e (we moved on from 3.5 a while ago) he said that I was using some forum interpretation to make shape sand into a free action instead of an actual errata or something you can find in a book but I'm certain that even though I read about it in a forum it was still something official, something written somewhere, but I don't know where. He didn't care too much about using RAW so the game-breaking interaction wasn't an issue per se, but it seems we both forgot what I gave him to read to show it could work that way, and if I always assumed he read that, he thinks he never read anything and just took my word for it. So we had kind of a friendly banter about it and gambled a beer on this matter, 'cause it wasn't the first time we discussed about it and we never got a definitive answer.


I came home and started searching everywhere but I can't find it, so I'm asking you:
Is there a rule that states that actions whose timing is given by the DC and have negative DCs are free or istantaneous or whatever? If so, where is it written? If not, is there a rule that regulates this?

EDIT WITH UPDATES:

UPDATE:

Spoke with the master, he conveened that the use happens in no time, instantaneously, but this still doesn't qualify it as an action. He told me I was using it as a reaction to stuff happening and that I justified it with the fact that there was this rule stating that negative timing for an action would make it qualify as free or something otherwise usable as a reaction, but that is not in the srd.
I have a vague recollection of this and I do remember reading this on some errata or something but I still can't find it.

Basically now the question is: given that everything around some volume of sand happens instantaneously, what kind of action one would be using? Is it a free action? Is it bonus? Is it a full standard action?

[Akkristor]

As far as i can tell, Shape Sand has only one rule that affects the time it takes, which is that the time required is equal to the check DC in minutes. Shape Sand is not a Craft check, it is a Caster Level check. Caster Level checks do not have a default time required, they are typically performed as part of another action (Dispelling, penetrating spell resistance).

Skill checks do have a time required, which the SRD is helpful to tell is that they 'might take a round, take no time, or take several rounds or even longer.'
Shape sand is also a Supernatural ability, which the SRD tells us: "Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.". Shape Sand 'notes otherwise' in it's description.

There is precedence for actions that 'take no time', and neither the Shape Sand ability nor caster level checks have a minimum time required. The only rule we have to go from is that Shape Sand requires a number of minutes equal to the DC, including modifiers for complexity. So, it would seem that a Shape Sand action with a DC of 0 or less would require no time to take. This would allow you to make a single solid object up to 2 cu. feet in volume. For quick comparison, 8 milk jugs in a 2x2x2 cube is about 1 cu. ft, so you could do twice that, or 4x2x2 (being 4 milk jugs tall by 2 milk jugs wide and 2 milk jugs deep).

[Segev]

Looks like you can create up to 2 cubic feet of object for 0 DC, as long as it has nothing fancy (usable tool, fine workmanship, etc.) about it. A "wall brick" would certainly qualify. You can create up to n objects, where n=(your level in Sandshaper), though, and no more, so you can make, at 10th level, 10 2-cubic-foot sand blocks as a free action, but you can't make more without disintegrating earlier ones.

There is no listed range, and the description of the ability sounds like you're actually sculpting it by hand (or at least, that's the implication I get from it). At best, this means you can sculpt these bricks within your Reach. As Small objects, each has Hardness 5 and 5 hp, so they're not particularly durable, either.

On the other hand, assuming the DM allows you to create them stacked up, which I can see a number of ways you could justify, you can use 9 2x2x2 blocks to make a 6x6x2 ft. barricade, which would effectively block passage through a given 5 ft. square and provide cover. A more clever construction would be a number of (4' 10.8")x(4' 10.8")x4" walls (also 5 hp and 5 hardness) layered together, forcing enemies to use one attack each and denying the ability to just shove one out of the way. Make them vaguely triangular rather than perfectly prismatic so the base is a bit steadier and you've got a reasonable combat barrier.

[liquidformat]

seems pretty clear cut, just tell the dm rules say it takes dc minutes to make and ask how many minutes -5 dc minutes is? The answer is either 0 minutes (instantaneous) or I made them 5 minutes before I started trying to make them...

[Segev]

seems pretty clear cut, just tell the dm rules say it takes dc minutes to make and ask how many minutes -5 dc minutes is? The answer is either 0 minutes (instantaneous) or I made them 5 minutes before I started trying to make them...

Is this why the perfect chest-high barriers are always already in place anywhere I go that a firefight is about to ensue? :smallcool:

[unclimainfame]

Thank you everyone for your answers.
I'm not sure I can get away with the SRD for the supernatural abilities but I'll try.


seems pretty clear cut, just tell the dm rules say it takes dc minutes to make and ask how many minutes -5 dc minutes is? The answer is either 0 minutes (instantaneous) or I made them 5 minutes before I started trying to make them...

Yeah we both get it, he just wants the raw to admit I was right. It's silly, I know.

[unclimainfame]

UPDATE:

Spoke with the master, he conveened that the use happens in no time, instantaneously, but this still doesn't qualify it as an action. He told me I was using it as a reaction to stuff happening and that I justified it with the fact that there was this rule stating that negative timing for an action would make it qualify as free or something otherwise usable as a reaction, but that is not in the srd.
I have a vague recollection of this and I do remember reading this on some errata or something but I still can't find it.

Basically now the question is: given that everything around some volume of sand happens instantaneously, what kind of action one would be using? Is it a free action? Is it bonus? Is it a full standard action?

[Bronk]

UPDATE:

Spoke with the master, he conveened that the use happens in no time, instantaneously, but this still doesn't qualify it as an action. He told me I was using it as a reaction to stuff happening and that I justified it with the fact that there was this rule stating that negative timing for an action would make it qualify as free or something otherwise usable as a reaction, but that is not in the srd.
I have a vague recollection of this and I do remember reading this on some errata or something but I still can't find it.

Basically now the question is: given that everything around some volume of sand happens instantaneously, what kind of action one would be using? Is it a free action? Is it bonus? Is it a full standard action?

I would go with free action.

It takes less time than a standard action, it's not a swift action because you appear to be able to do it more than once at a time, it's not an immediate action for the same reason but also because nothing says you can do it outside of your turn, it's not a move action because it defaults to a standard action with the supernatural ability rules, and it's not 'no action' because you don't need to do something else at the same time.

Edit... but, you can't really win this bet, because it's the DM's decision. Or wait, did you already win, because he let you do it back then? If so, congrats!