Help with Gestalt character ideas/builds

[Genoin]

I am going to be starting a Gestalt game soon, starting at level 3, all official material (no UA). This will be a morally questionable if not outright evil campaign. There are two of us, and the other player is likely going to be something like a Assassin Rogue // Death Cleric.

With Thieves Tools and Divine Magic covered, I was thinking something like Lore Bard or some type of Sorcerer on one side, and Paladin (maybe with a Hexblade dip) for the other side. That also adds good face, arcane magic and front line capabilities.

What I would like is suggestions on builds. Races, Feats, Subclasses, etc. Thanks!

[Rentirith]

a warlock/wizard can be pretty powerful. focusing on one of the DCs if you don't get great stats (id prefer charisma) and let the other class just function as an extra battery. You can make a really powerful necromancer this way; learn most of the necromancer spells on the warlock side except for Animate Dead, and use wizard for the utility. Rely on short rests to maintain control of your horde, while standing in the background pelting the enemy with eldritch blast if you don't want to get up in the middle of it.

Hex can be tricky with grim harvest; the feature says if you kill a creature with a spell's damage, you heal twice the level of damage. Hex does do more damage, but the dm may require the damage to be counted separate from eldrich blast. Regardless, if it works then by level 9 you can heal yourself for 10 hp every round if you can reliably drop the enemy.

Mystic arcanum should stack with the wizard's higher level spells. Go with hexblade for extra edge-factor and durability, along with it's random specter. Hexblade necromancer is the way to go if you want to look at the table and say "look at me, im the dm now".

[Man_Over_Game]

Morally ambiguous? Need a face? Need a tank?

Definitely Conquest Paladin/Hexblade. Be a Dwarf to make it so you no longer need Strength for your armor, and now you only have two stats you have to worry about: Constitution and Charisma. You can lock enemies down while your Death Cleric brings the pain.

[Genoin]

@Rentirith I appreciate the suggestion and that sounds pretty neat, but I'm not really looking for a minionmancer type character.

Question though, what do you mean about the Arcanum stacking?

[Genoin]

Morally ambiguous? Need a face? Need a tank?

Definitely Conquest Paladin/Hexblade. Be a Dwarf to make it so you no longer need Strength for your armor, and now you only have two stats you have to worry about: Constitution and Charisma. You can lock enemies down while your Death Cleric brings the pain.

Sounds good, not crazy about how they share the same saves, though I could pick up resilient Con.

What other kind of specifics do you think work well? What Pact, feats vs ASI, mandatory Invocations, etc?

[Man_Over_Game]

Sounds good, not crazy about how they share the same saves, though I could pick up resilient Con.

What other kind of specifics do you think work well? What Pact, feats vs ASI, mandatory Invocations, etc?

Because your casting stats are the same as your attacking stats, I'd recommend stacking as much Charisma as you possibly can. Rack that baby up as high as you can get it. Get virtually everything that uses Fear, which will work well with your unnaturally high spell save DC.

For invocations/boons, go with the Pact of the Blade, and get the invocations that enhance your Pact Weapon. Being able to smite your enemies with Warlock Spellslots at the same time you use Divine Smite will cause a buttload of hurt. You can also add Charisma onto your Pact Blade damage with the Lifedrinker invocation.

For low level invocations, consider Mask of Many Faces for some powerful out-of-combat utility, or Devil's Sight to combine with the Darkness spell to grant yourself Advantage on your attacks and Disadvantage to be struck.

Consider that for a second: A ball of Darkness that you're Frightened of, but you cannot escape from nor see through. As the orb of blackness moves, it leaves behind a trail of bodies.

[Rentirith]

Question though, what do you mean about the Arcanum stacking?

I don't remember the specifics, but because mystic arcanum isn't technically a spell and instead a power that copies spells, then that and pact magic stack with regular spell casting, like what the wizard has.

So even if you don't go for the necromancer vibe, then take abjuration instead and get mage armor at will from the warlock; boom. always have a full ward before combat if you can help it.

[Genoin]

I don't remember the specifics, but because mystic arcanum isn't technically a spell and instead a power that copies spells, then that and pact magic stack with regular spell casting, like what the wizard has.

So even if you don't go for the necromancer vibe, then take abjuration instead and get mage armor at will from the warlock; boom. always have a full ward before combat if you can help it.


I'm still confused. Do multiple types of spellcasting not stack? Has there been an official gestalt update for 5e, because under the original gestalt rules, you get slots from both sources, they are just tracked separately. For example, a 1st level Wizard // Druid gestalt has 2 1st level wizard slots and 2 1st level druid slots per day. If there has been an official update to the gestalt rules from the original, can you link it? Otherwise my group will most likely continue to use the only official gestalt rules.

[Rentirith]

EDIT: there aren't official gestalt rules, as gestalt is a rule set that originated in 3.5 with the book Unearthed Arcana that stated (paraphrasing): take the best of both classes, if there is stacking then take the better, not both. There have been a bunch of different homebrew rules for gestalt in 5e (im guilty of this as well) but as it is, WotC seems to be staying away from releasing offical rules for this type of play as it breaks the idea of bounded accuracy.

It may very well be that in your gestalt system the different spell casting classes all stay separate; I have just been basing my ideas off of the multiclassing rules in the PHB that say if two classes have spell casting, then there are certain rules to follow. The pact magic casting is specifically exempt from this rule and states that pact magic and regular spell casting stack with each other based on the separate class's level, so to the best of my knowledge warlock + another full caster is the only way to get two sets of high level spells and full level spell progressions. I would definitely get clarification on that by the DM if you haven't already.

BUT! Going off the assumption that all spellcasting stacks with each other in the best possible way (double spell slots, prepare spells separately), then this does change things. I would have to pick a sorcerer wizard then for some fun metamagic shenanigans with lots of wizard spells, in addition to all the other ways the subclasses could complement each other. Shadow sorcerer illusion wizard would be fun, or maybe a draconic/divine soul bladesinger. Not the most inherently overpowered, but this is a fun Eragon-type build.

Moving away from lots of magic you could do a shadow monk rogue for a ninja build, or barbarian swashbuckler rogue for an in your face, never go down/punisher type style. Recklessly attack while raging with a finesse weapon like a short sword or dagger, but technically use strength to get the extra rage damage on top of the sneak attack. Fast movement + bonus action dash every round, advantage on dexterity saving throws and the inability to be surprised (or something, not sure of the specifics for the barb)... you will be a machine.

[Genoin]

It may very well be that in your gestalt system the different spell casting classes all stay separate; I have just been basing my ideas off of the multiclassing rules in the PHB that say if two classes have spell casting, then there are certain rules to follow. The pact magic casting is specifically exempt from this rule and states that pact magic and regular spell casting stack with each other based on the separate class's level, so to the best of my knowledge warlock + another full caster is the only way to get two sets of high level spells and full level spell progressions. I would definitely get clarification on that by the DM if you haven't already.

Yeah, that is the way we have always played Gestalt (its fairly common because our group of regulars is just 3 people) but this is the first time we have played 5e gestalt. I do know that in the 3.5 official gestalt rules it does state that a gestalt character that has more than one spellcasting class tracks their spells per day separately, so I think considering the multiclass rules for spellcasting what would happen is that in terms of determining spell slots, each side of the gestalt would be treated as a different character, for example, a Cleric 1 / Fighter 4 // Wizard 5 would have normal spell slots for a wizard of 5th level, and then normal spell slots for a cleric of 1st level, and I would say that because each side of the gestalt is treated as separate characters for this purpose, cleric spells would not be allowed to be upcast using the wizard slots (a cost of getting extra slots).

[Rentirith]

Coolio then! you also can't go wrong with an eldritch knight war wizard; just use your EK side for shield or absorb elements and you will be veeeerry tough to put down, in addition to all of the other shenanigans that wizards can do.

If you can't tell, im just a bit of a fan of wizards :)

[Genoin]

Currently considering a Hexblade 2 / Conquest Paladin X // Shadow Soul Sorcerer X. Some highlights of what that build gets:

- Good Wisdom and Con Saves
- All Armor, Shield, and Weapon Proficiencies (start Paladin)
- Cha to hit/damage (Hexblade 1)
- 2 Warlock Invocations (Hexblade 2)
- Charisma to all Saves (Paladin 6)
- 2 Sorcery Points gets the effects of the Darkness/Devils Sight combo
- Metamagic

[Genoin]

Coolio then! you also can't go wrong with an eldritch knight war wizard; just use your EK side for shield or absorb elements and you will be veeeerry tough to put down, in addition to all of the other shenanigans that wizards can do.

If you can't tell, im just a bit of a fan of wizards :)

I am also a huge fan of Wizards but the more I think about it I really want to play some combination of Warlock / Paladin / Sorcerer, seems super nasty, see the build I just posted above.

[Kane0]

Warlock/Paladin and Warlock/Sorcerer buddy duo.
If you get a third player or NPC tagalong they’ll be a warlock / bard of course.

[Genoin]

Warlock/Paladin and Warlock/Sorcerer buddy duo.
If you get a third player or NPC tagalong they’ll be a warlock / bard of course.

I think the other player is pretty set on the Death Cleric // Assassin Rogue concept she has, but thanks!

[CTurbo]

Hexblade Bladelock/ OathBreaker Paladin Polearm Master

At level 12, you would get an extra 1d8 on all attacks as well as getting to add your Cha mod to damage a total of 3x.