Another Snap Kick Discussion

[Feint's End]

Hey everyone. It's been a while since I checked up on these boards. I have 2 questions regarding Snap Kick.

A. Do the penalties from using several Snap Kicks a round stack? Say I used it on 2 AoO before my round and then another one on my full attack during my turn. I have found conflicting evidence. This discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-370720.html) says they stack, but I have other people heard saying the opposite. According to the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) they would not stack either. Has there been any progress or new thoughts on this since then? I would appreciate any help as I am thinking about picking it up next level for my character. It's usefulness would be rather limited though if it stacked.

B. What if I had a feat that let me apply my dexterity bonus to dmg instead of strength dmg. It states that I don't multiply the dmg by 1.5 if I used 2h weapons but also don't half it with offhand. I assume RAI would be that it wouldn't get halved for Snap Kick either? I am using a 2h weapon so that would kinda balance it out.

Hope you peeps can help and looking forward to the discussion.

[The Kool]

You'll have to enlighten me on how you can even make more than one Snap Kick in a round...

[Karl Aegis]

Multiple penalties from the same source do not stack. Take the worst one.

[Kaje]

You'll have to enlighten me on how you can even make more than one Snap Kick in a round...

Simplest version is an attack on your turn + an attack of opportunity.

[The Kool]

I think I begin to see it. The argument being that every opportunity to attack is a new opportunity to make a snap kick. Seems to fit the RAW but personally I wouldn't allow it.

Beside the point though, I presume you're being allowed to use it in that fashion, so will answer the question at hand. I would say that they stack, but once again that's me trying to make a fair reading of it and not a strict RAW observation. Since you seem to have a DM that leans in your favor on RAW vs RAI, I believe you can swing the argument that they are bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.

As an aside, if your DM is saying one thing and you're trying to convince them otherwise, try not to make an argument of it, that usually doesn't end well. I wouldn't feel the need to say this, if I hadn't had oh so many players argue with me on things like this... Ah well.

[Necroticplague]

Hey everyone. It's been a while since I checked up on these boards. I have 2 questions regarding Snap Kick.

A. Do the penalties from using several Snap Kicks a round stack? Say I used it on 2 AoO before my round and then another one on my full attack during my turn. I have found conflicting evidence. This discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-370720.html) says they stack, but I have other people heard saying the opposite. According to the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) they would not stack either. Has there been any progress or new thoughts on this since then? I would appreciate any help as I am thinking about picking it up next level for my character. It's usefulness would be rather limited though if it stacked.
They don't. As per what you quoted, modifiers to the same roll from the same source don't stack. Thus, since both -2 are from the same source (Snap Kick feat), the wouldn't get more severe with each bonus attack.


B. What if I had a feat that let me apply my dexterity bonus to dmg instead of strength dmg. It states that I don't multiply the dmg by 1.5 if I used 2h weapons but also don't half it with offhand. I assume RAI would be that it wouldn't get halved for Snap Kick either? I am using a 2h weapon so that would kinda balance it out.

Don't know about RAI, but RAW it would be. If it gets there instead of STR for damage, than it would just replace the 'half your STR' with 'half your DEX'. Also, the damage calculation for Snap Kick isn't a penalty from off-hand.

That is, of course, assuming a somewhat generous reading that isn't interpreting 'an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus' to mean 'no modifiers can be applied to this, as they would otherwise contradict this rule', which frankly seems likely (as otherwise, a Snap Kick would inherently effectively get 1.5 STR to damage. .5 from the rules text of Snap Kick, then 1 from the rules for attributes that state STR gives a bonus to melee damage rolls.) .

[Feint's End]

I think I begin to see it. The argument being that every opportunity to attack is a new opportunity to make a snap kick. Seems to fit the RAW but personally I wouldn't allow it.

Beside the point though, I presume you're being allowed to use it in that fashion, so will answer the question at hand. I would say that they stack, but once again that's me trying to make a fair reading of it and not a strict RAW observation. Since you seem to have a DM that leans in your favor on RAW vs RAI, I believe you can swing the argument that they are bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.

As an aside, if your DM is saying one thing and you're trying to convince them otherwise, try not to make an argument of it, that usually doesn't end well. I wouldn't feel the need to say this, if I hadn't had oh so many players argue with me on things like this... Ah well.

So we have settled (technically I since my DM trusts me with rule decisions) on something. I will be able to use it multiple times (I am playing a pathfinder soulknife with the war soul archetype so it's kind of nice for my recovery method) BUT penalties will stack. This opens up options (but punishing overly enthusiastic usage). I agree that it would otherwise be too powerful on certain builds (AoO builds especially).

I am not about arguing with my DM ... we have played together for about 10 years by now and he isn't all too bothered with the small intricacies of rules. We have sorta a gentleman's agreement. I can do pretty much whatever I want IF I keep the overall powerlevel of the group in mind. It has worked out well thus far. If I need some feedback on something I want to do, I talk to one of my friends who is also well versed in DnD mechanics.


They don't. As per what you quoted, modifiers to the same roll from the same source don't stack. Thus, since both -2 are from the same source (Snap Kick feat), the wouldn't get more severe with each bonus attack.



Don't know about RAI, but RAW it would be. If it gets there instead of STR for damage, than it would just replace the 'half your STR' with 'half your DEX'. Also, the damage calculation for Snap Kick isn't a penalty from off-hand.

That is, of course, assuming a somewhat generous reading that isn't interpreting 'an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus' to mean 'no modifiers can be applied to this, as they would otherwise contradict this rule', which frankly seems likely (as otherwise, a Snap Kick would inherently effectively get 1.5 STR to damage. .5 from the rules text of Snap Kick, then 1 from the rules for attributes that state STR gives a bonus to melee damage rolls.) .

I also agree RAW. Emperor Tippy has stated the opposite but the SRD seems to be pretty clear. I have however settled on it stacking for the purpose of this game to limit myself. That way I have options but might not wanna use it all too often on AOO and Soulknife Recovery.

On the dex part. I've also decided to use my full dex bonus. It's probably closer to RAI and I see it as a balancing factor for me using a 2h weapon all this time and still only getting 1x dex mod to dmg. Especially since it will continue to stay my main weapon .. the Snap Kick is only support (and some utility since I picked up the blade skill that grants me deadly fist progression ... so I can put utility enchants on there).

On a slightly different note. I have been looking for this but do you guys know when a round ends for you? Is it at the start or end of your turn. The reason why I'm asking is specifically for stuff like Snap Kick. Do they reset before or after I take my actions. I have always been under the impression it ends at the end of your turn (stuff like immediate actions prevent swift actions in your own turn for example). Maybe you could point me the right direction. My Google-Fu is worse than it's been before.

Thanks to everybody for their replies.

[The Kool]

We have sorta a gentleman's agreement.

Man am I jealous. Awesome position to be in though.


On a slightly different note. I have been looking for this but do you guys know when a round ends for you? Is it at the start or end of your turn. The reason why I'm asking is specifically for stuff like Snap Kick. Do they reset before or after I take my actions. I have always been under the impression it ends at the end of your turn (stuff like immediate actions prevent swift actions in your own turn for example). Maybe you could point me the right direction. My Google-Fu is worse than it's been before.

I don't have any rules or references to back up this claim, but my understanding which seems to be backed by the examples I can remember and how I've always seen it played, is that the moment the DM turns to you and says that your turn in the initiative order has arrived, it clicks over to a new round for you. The closest thing I can cite is how feats like Power Attack state that they apply until your next turn, and spells that take 1 round to cast complete their casting right at the start of your next turn.

[Feint's End]

Man am I jealous. Awesome position to be in though.



I don't have any rules or references to back up this claim, but my understanding which seems to be backed by the examples I can remember and how I've always seen it played, is that the moment the DM turns to you and says that your turn in the initiative order has arrived, it clicks over to a new round for you. The closest thing I can cite is how feats like Power Attack state that they apply until your next turn, and spells that take 1 round to cast complete their casting right at the start of your next turn.

Well it does require me to reflect upon my decisions :P

-Power Attack doesn't count since it never refers to round. It states the penalty is active until the start of your next turn.
-1 round of casting time doesn't proof much either. Mostly becaue you can split up actions between the 2 turns. This implies it's a flexible term.
-The thing that seems to have the most substance is Immediate and Swift Actions. If you take an immediate action outside of your turn, you won't be able to use a swift action in your upcoming turn. This implies rounds end after your turn. However it is never explicitely stated leaving us with no actual proof of anything.

It seems it all comes down to RAI in the end. Personally I'll probably use it in a way like Power Attack which seems to be the closest comparison. So Snap Kick penalties would reset at the start of my turn.

[The Kool]

It seems it all comes down to RAI in the end. Personally I'll probably use it in a way like Power Attack which seems to be the closest comparison. So Snap Kick penalties would reset at the start of my turn.

By RAW, the round ends at the bottom of the initiative order. However, since nothing your character can do references a fixed point in the initiative order (that I know of) and instead is all relative to your actions or someone else's actions, taking bearings from, for example, the start and end of your turn... I think our bearings need to toss out the RAW definition of when a round ends. As you said yourself, you want to know when it ends for you. And as you've picked up on, not many of the feats and abilities use the same language. The closest you're going to get is to find abilities that function in very similar ways and take very similar roles, and follow along as best you can. The wording is, unfortunately, inconsistent even within the PHB. I never realized that Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Rapid Shot all word things differently (and Snap Kick follows the Rapid Shot wording). I think that by RAI they're all supposed to work on the same timing, and Power Attack seems to have the clearest/fairest wording, so I'd go with that.

[Feint's End]

By RAW, the round ends at the bottom of the initiative order. However, since nothing your character can do references a fixed point in the initiative order (that I know of) and instead is all relative to your actions or someone else's actions, taking bearings from, for example, the start and end of your turn... I think our bearings need to toss out the RAW definition of when a round ends. As you said yourself, you want to know when it ends for you. And as you've picked up on, not many of the feats and abilities use the same language. The closest you're going to get is to find abilities that function in very similar ways and take very similar roles, and follow along as best you can. The wording is, unfortunately, inconsistent even within the PHB. I never realized that Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Rapid Shot all word things differently (and Snap Kick follows the Rapid Shot wording). I think that by RAI they're all supposed to work on the same timing, and Power Attack seems to have the clearest/fairest wording, so I'd go with that.

Yeah fully agreed. I never realized how poorly defined Round was until now^^.

I'll go with the Power Attack interpretation (better for me in many ways).

[The Kool]

Yeah fully agreed. I never realized how poorly defined Round was until now^^.

But did anyone else catch that Combat Expertise is "until your next action"?