Choosing which stat to use for spells - broken or super broken?

[CheddarChampion]

Int-based warlocks, Wis-based sorcerers, Cha-based clerics...
Hypothetically, what would be lost by allowing a player to choose which ability score to use for casting spells? Assume there's a good flavor reason - the warlock as a delver into dark secrets or the cleric as an evangelist.

Would one multiclass be overpowered now that it's SAD? Would everyone choose Wis for the skills and saves? Is there some obscure rule that would be abused?
What's the worst that could happen, mechanically speaking?

Edit: Yeah I meant to limit it to mental ability scores only, whoops.

[mephnick]

I don't think anything could be more broken than what the CHA classes can already do. A Druid/Pally mix with the same stat would be pretty obscene.

[Rukelnikov]

For starters casters would MC better among themselves, like Sorcs, Bards and Locks do, but every caster now.

Con would be amongst the most common choices, since it makes it harder to lose concentration, its a pretty common save, gives HP, what more to ask right?

Casters get better stats overall because they can distribute them better.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I was actually considering this question earlier. Mostly 'cause I'm playing a studious Druid type where it would make sense to cast with Int. There was also a thread floating around about Int based Warlocks.

I personally don't think it would break too much. You've already covered the main "drawbacks," specifically that people might go for high Wis or Cha as opposed to Int or some such (considering a lot of threads consider Int skills outside of Investigation, which usually gets rolled into perception, and maybe Arcana as useless). It would also take the sting out of a lot of multiclassing.

If you're worried about it, I'd say let them choose their stat, but disallow multiclassing if they do. Or if you allow multiclassing, make it so they can only change the casting stat of their initial class, to represent an unusual style of training. I wouldn't be too worried about it, though.

Definitely only let them choose between the mental disciplines, though, or Con would definitely be an obvious choice. Though STR based casters would definitely be interesting.

[Justin Sane]

Some multi-class combos would be marginally better than what they are now. Don't know if that qualifies as "broken".

Paladin/Druid, however, does seem to qualify. They look scary good.

[MoiMagnus]

First, without MC, there isn't any real problem.

Since Int is pretty bad as a stat, changing a spell-casting stat to int should not cause any problems.
And Sag and Cha have different flavor, but both similar in strength, so not a big deal to change one from the other.
I would be quite reluctant to allow the Wizard to spell-cast with Sag or Cha, though.

With MC, well, you just significantly multiplied the number of possible "stupid MC". So you will have some broken stuff. But what will be broken or not will really depends on the way your DM handle the campaign.

[Marcloure]

If you block out MC, it should be fine. Yeah

[Rerem115]

Forgive me for being blind, but why is PalaDruid so scary?

[Man_Over_Game]

Forgive me for being blind, but why is PalaDruid so scary?

Divine Smite + Moon Druid, so you can spend spell slots while Wild Shaped. Tack on the Oath of the Ancients for halved magic damage.

Land Druid spell slot regeneration as well as access to Mirror Image + Paladin Tankiness and spell slot dependency.

Shepherd Druid + Paladin bonus to Constitution saving throws.

Paladins are a high AC melee combatant who is fairly vulnerable to magic. Absorb Elements is a Druid spell that is great against magic but requires melee combat to make the most out of its use.

-------------------------

I did a lot of research into this to create my Prestige Options homebrew, which does exactly what the thread's about and then ties in specific multiclassing restrictions to prevent overpowered builds.

For example, Clerics can use Charisma, but only if they don't take levels into Sorcerer or Warlock (for both narrative and mechanical reasons).

I find that as long as versatile casters (Clerics, Wizards, Druids) don't have cheap access to Warlock spell slots or Sorcerer metamagic, it's pretty hard to break anything related to casting.

[MoiMagnus]

Forgive me for being blind, but why is PalaDruid so scary?

PalaSorc is already powerful (because you can use Sorcerer's spell slots for your divine smite, so you strike stronger than the standard Paladin)

If you are a PalaDruid, on top of that, you can do your divine smite while in beast form, because:
1) Class features (except spell casting) can be used while in beast form
2) Animal attacks use "Natural weapons", hence count as "Melee weapon attacks"

So you basically are a divine beast rampaging everything in your sight using your god's power, and once you run out of HP, you just become back a standard Melee fighter with good armors and saves.

EDIT: it seems someone answered before me...

[Misterwhisper]

Prepare for a lot of hexbladesingers based on wisdom.

[Rerem115]

Divine Smite + Moon Druid, so you can spend spell slots while Wild Shaped. Tack on the Oath of the Ancients for halved magic damage.

Land Druid spell slot regeneration as well as access to Mirror Image + Paladin Tankiness and spell slot dependency.

Shepherd Druid + Paladin bonus to Constitution saving throws.

-------------------------

I did a lot of research into this to create my Prestige Options homebrew, which does exactly what the thread's about and then ties in specific multiclassing restrictions to prevent overpowered builds.

For example, Clerics can use Charisma, but only if they don't take levels into Sorcerer or Warlock (for both narrative and mechanical reasons).

I find that as long as versatile casters (Clerics, Wizards, Druids) don't have cheap access to Warlock spell slots or Sorcerer metamagic, it's pretty hard to break anything related to casting.

Eh, fair enough. Granted, you can pretty much do that RAW; Moon Druids are the rare class that can afford to dump Dex and Con (still not recommended, but a viable option), so you take just enough to meet your multiclass ( 13 Str, Cha, and Wis), and then mix and match to your heart's content. You don't really need feats (they're nice, but build doesn't hinge on them), so you can focus on pumping either Cha or Wis, depending on your spell choice and playstyle.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I've always wanted to play a Cha-based cleric. Not for multi-class purposes (although maybe throw some bard in there at some point), but for the skills. I like the idea of an evangelist-type of cleric (who actually has the charisma to back up that style of play).

[Felyndiira]

PalaSorc is already powerful (because you can use Sorcerer's spell slots for your divine smite, so you strike stronger than the standard Paladin)

If you are a PalaDruid, on top of that, you can do your divine smite while in beast form, because:
1) Class features (except spell casting) can be used while in beast form
2) Animal attacks use "Natural weapons", hence count as "Melee weapon attacks"

So you basically are a divine beast rampaging everything in your sight using your god's power, and once you run out of HP, you just become back a standard Melee fighter with good armors and saves.

EDIT: it seems someone answered before me...

You can do this right now with a Paladin 2 dip. Divine Smite doesn't care about your spellcasting modifier, and you can fill your Paladin prepared spells with buffs and support spells so their saves never comes up.

Choosing spellcasting modifiers would make Paladin 6 / Druid X stronger, but losing six levels of Druid is murder for Circle of the Moon builds. Not to mention, you still can't use Extra Attack in beast form, making this still a relatively poor option.

[ad_hoc]

These sorts of houserules which bring the game more towards a classless structure make the game into a 'mush'.

Classes/races/etc. losing their distinctive attributes also lose their thematic identities. There is nothing stopping a Druid from having a high Intelligence. Having them use it for spellcasting though hurts their identity and weakens archetypes. Same goes for using metal armour, even moreso.

[mephnick]

These sorts of houserules which bring the game more towards a classless structure make the game into a 'mush'.

In the end, I agree with this. Strict mechanical and flavour archetypes is kind of D&D's "thing". Every universal system I've tried has been extremely bland. I'm firmly in the camp that restrictions matter.

[Lance Tankmen]

I allow race abilities/feats to use spell casting. I.E. the tiefling monk i allow her to use WIS for hellish rebuke as thats the save for all her monk stuff, so its partial laziness. OR the high elf sorcerer allowed her to use Charisma for her high elf cantrip instead of INT. That said i don't do muticlassing so this wouldn't be a problem what you're suggesting but i wouldnt do it as someone else pointed out it causes the lines to blur and classes become similiar, i also don't see anyone picking INT IMO.

[RifleAvenger]

Constitution SAD casters is a little bit of a scary thing to me, but the 20 ability cap makes it a lot less frightening than it would have been in previous editions.

Opening up additional synergy for Paladin and Hexblade dips might be troublesome too.

This option gets more likely to result in unusually high power levels if you play with feats. There's no reason to take ASI's past getting your casting stat to 20 if you're allowed to wrap all your class' actions into running off a single stat (see how good Cha synergies are), so that frees up ASI slots for feats instead.

[sithlordnergal]

Forgive me for being blind, but why is PalaDruid so scary?

Because they become an ultimate support option. Land Druids can regain spell slots, so you have more smites. Moon Druids, while not the most optimal option, are tanky with their extra HP. Not to mention Druids have access to Shillelagh. So a Paladin doesn't need to max out Strength, they can put a 15 in Str, and leave it that way.

They're still MAD, but now they only need to worry about Wisdom and Charisma...and since Half Elves exist, you can easily max out both and have room for a feat. And if you're doing extra attacks with a Shillelagh Quarterstaff, you may as well go Polearm Mastery.

That said, I feel the real strength of the Paladin/Druid is in their support strength. As such, I feel Shepard and Dream Druids are where you get the most use out of the multiclass. Dream and Shepard Druids are excellent support classes already, and their abilities stack with the Paladin. For example, an Ancients Paladin/Shepard Druid can stack their Paladin Auras with their Druid aura, giving you an area where allies gain Cha to saves, resistance to spells, and one of three powerful auras. Then they can summon stronger beasts and provide their summons those boosts.

Meanwhile a Dream Druid/Paladin has a ton of non-magical healing. If you take the route I did and go Ancients/Dreams, you'll have 40 points of Lay on Hands for anyone near you, 12d6 bonus action healing with a 120ft range, and 5 bonus action teleports that you could use on yourself for 60ft or an ally for 30ft.

And all the while you still have access to the Druid and Paladin spell list, you still gain the same number of spell slots as a Soradin, you still have your smites, and everything else.

[Kane0]

I would personally keep it to two options rather than just any mental stat.

Bard: Cha or Int
Cleric: Wis or Int
Druid: Wis or Cha
Paladin: Cha or Wis
Ranger: Wis or Int
Sorcerer: Cha or Wis
Warlock: Cha or Int
Wizard: Int or Wis

But then again, sometimes I reckon the six attributes could be reduced to five or even four.

[Rukelnikov]

I would personally keep it to two options rather than just any mental stat.

Bard: Cha or Int
Cleric: Wis or Int
Druid: Wis or Cha
Paladin: Cha or Wis
Ranger: Wis or Int
Sorcerer: Cha or Wis
Warlock: Cha or Int
Wizard: Int or Wis

But then again, sometimes I reckon the six attributes could be reduced to five or even four.

Which attribute do you think can be removed?

[Kane0]

It depends on your priorities, I've considered a couple but there's just too much inertia with the current set. Con and Cha I consider the wonkiest stats and could stand to be altered or axed.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would personally keep it to two options rather than just any mental stat.

Bard: Cha or Int
Cleric: Wis or Int
Druid: Wis or Cha
Paladin: Cha or Wis
Ranger: Wis or Int
Sorcerer: Cha or Wis
Warlock: Cha or Int
Wizard: Int or Wis

But then again, sometimes I reckon the six attributes could be reduced to five or even four.

Huh. That is actually pretty funny.

In my Prestige Options, I've included these:


Bard

Lore-Intelligence

Cleric

All-Charisma
Knowledge/Arcana-Intelligence

Druid

Shepherd-Charisma

Paladin

Ancients-Wisdom
Conquest-Intelligence

Ranger

Monster Hunter/Horizon Walker-Intelligence

Sorcerer

All-Wisdom

Warlock

Archfey-Wisdom
Hexblade-Wisdom
Great Old One-Intelligence
Undying-Constitution




They match up pretty dang closely to what you're describing.

[LudicSavant]

Int-based warlocks, Wis-based sorcerers, Cha-based clerics...
Hypothetically, what would be lost by allowing a player to choose which ability score to use for casting spells? Assume there's a good flavor reason - the warlock as a delver into dark secrets or the cleric as an evangelist.

Would one multiclass be overpowered now that it's SAD? Would everyone choose Wis for the skills and saves? Is there some obscure rule that would be abused?
What's the worst that could happen, mechanically speaking?

Edit: Yeah I meant to limit it to mental ability scores only, whoops.

Wizard multiclassing is probably the biggest beneficiary. Though, any amount of benefit this houserule gives would not exceed simply having crazy good stat rolls... so if you're fine with that level of power variance, you should be fine with this.

Also noteworthy is that Wisdom is generally a better stat than Cha and Int, so that's basically a buff even if you don't multiclass.

In the past I've allowed casters to sub in Cha or Int for their casting stat on the stipulation that they don't multiclass in the future. Had an Int-based Druid studying nature in one game. That was fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

Which attribute do you think can be removed?

Physical prowess, mental prowess, social prowess and health.

Or merge Dex with Str, and Int with Wis.

[Rerem115]

Int-based warlocks, Wis-based sorcerers, Cha-based clerics...
Hypothetically, what would be lost by allowing a player to choose which ability score to use for casting spells? Assume there's a good flavor reason - the warlock as a delver into dark secrets or the cleric as an evangelist.

Would one multiclass be overpowered now that it's SAD? Would everyone choose Wis for the skills and saves? Is there some obscure rule that would be abused?
What's the worst that could happen, mechanically speaking?

Edit: Yeah I meant to limit it to mental ability scores only, whoops.

At least at the circles I play in, you'd see even MORE Cha casters; a lot of the people I know like to play faces. The rest play martials, so it wouldn't change anything for them :smalltongue:

[noob]

How about removing stats and calculating everything as if everyone had 10 everywhere?(so no modifier)

[LudicSavant]

Which attribute do you think can be removed?

I'd probably remove Wisdom and split its features between Charisma and Intelligence if I were to redesign 5e (Cha would get the "will save" type aspects of Wis, Int would get the "discovery and insight" type features). Probably remove Constitution too; being more durable can be represented by feats like Tough or War Caster or from HD or class features. As is Constitution is basically the stat that gobbles up all the leftover point buy that otherwise would have been spent on differentiating characters in skill stats.

Alternatively I might remove the attribute system entirely and have feats and skills and features doing the legwork. Think Grod the Giant did something like that at some point.

[noob]

Alternatively I might remove the attribute system entirely and have feats and skills and features doing the legwork. Think Grod the Giant did something like that at some point.

Quite the kind of thing I suggested.
I guess Grod did the system with that first.

[Kane0]

Snip

And that's no coincidence, most are historically supported archetypes even within D&D

Int Bard: The scholar
Int Cleric: Cloistered Cleric, Runescribe, etc
Cha Cleric/Druid: 'Cult of Personality'
Wis Paladin: The introspective warrior, precedent from previous editions
Int Ranger: Fight smarter, not harder. Literally 'know thy enemy'
Wis Sorcerer: It is in *knowing* yourself
Int Warlock: In the playtest, delver of that best left forgotten
Wis Wizard: You don't 'learn' magic, you understand it.

Edit: Also Strength (might), Dexterity (finesse), Intelligence (Acumen) and Wisdom (Intuition). Toughness, social graces and personality get spread elsewhere like feats, skills, saves and RP elements

[MoiMagnus]

Which attribute do you think can be removed?

Merge For and Con into Fortitude -> this one is my no brainier. Constitution is a weird attribute that almost never have a skill associated to it.
Merge Cha and Wis into Willpower -> this one is quite reasonable too
Merge Int and Dex into Cunning -> this one is very debatable, but works better than what it seems at first glance

(If you already saw this somewhere, it is 4e link between defenses and attributes. I just renamed Reflexes into Cunning)

Every subtle difference between the different uses of attributes is dealt with skills.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which attribute do you think can be removed?
Int and Wisdom can be fused.

[ChildofLuthic]

Honestly, if a player came up to me wanting to do this, I'd probably let this happen. Or if they said "hey this is my concept how do I do?" I'd probably let it happen. I'd probably tell them they couldn't multiclass, however, and I wouldn't want this codified into the rules. But if you want to play an INT-Warlock, go for it. It makes sense thematically.

[Man_Over_Game]

Honestly, if a player came up to me wanting to do this, I'd probably let this happen. Or if they said "hey this is my concept how do I do?" I'd probably let it happen. I'd probably tell them they couldn't multiclass, however, and I wouldn't want this codified into the rules. But if you want to play an INT-Warlock, go for it. It makes sense thematically.

Just say that half of the character's total levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock. Warlock multiclassing is really overpowered if you're abusing some low level dip benefit, like Short Rest spell slots (used for things like Shield) or Hexblade's Curse. If you make those an impossibility (like forcing Warlock to be the primary class), it's actually really hard to break.

[langal]

Maybe if you want to play a smart character, you put some points in Intelligence. Same goes for other attributes.

Homebrewing rules to optimize every bit of your attributes is sort of munchkin.

[Man_Over_Game]

Maybe if you want to play a smart character, you put some points in Intelligence. Same goes for other attributes.

Homebrewing rules to optimize every bit of your attributes is sort of munchkin.

You have two people who want to play an intelligent person. One of them likes the Wizard ruleset, the other likes the Warlock ruleset.

They both decide to go for a melee build. Wizard goes Bladesinger, Warlock goes Fiend.

Both characters need Dexterity, Constitution, and their spellcasting modifier to do well. However, the Warlock also has to worry about trying to match the narrative they want for their character. Because of a narrative choice, the Wizard is superior to the Warlock.

However, nobody would describe the Intelligent Bladesinger as being "munchkin", because we know that balance-wise it's fine. If the Warlock using Intelligence was also fine balance-wise, would it still be a problem?

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

They both decide to go for a melee build. Wizard goes Bladesinger, Warlock goes Fiend.

Let's be real for this one. A smart melee warlock would go Hexblade. Then they just need Cha, as much Int as they want, then as much Dex/Con to feel comfortable.

There are ways to incorporate the stats as is. I wanted to play a high Int druid, so I maxed my Int and Wis and dumped pretty much everything else. I ended up going Moon Druid so that I could more easily have physical stats dumped while keeping high mental stats.

I agree that swapping mental stats wouldn't effect too much outside of better multiclassing, but there are ways of using what's available in the system to get the intended effect.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Maybe if you want to play a smart character, you put some points in Intelligence. Same goes for other attributes.

Homebrewing rules to optimize every bit of your attributes is sort of munchkin.

I suppose it could be sort of munchkin. But on the other hand, I've never actually played the evangelist cleric PC that I'd like to, because of the problem with the stats.

Clerics basically need Dex or Str for melee & AC, Wis for spell casting and their divine domain/channel abilities, and Con for HP and concentration saves. None of those things are 100% vital to be able to do, but neglecting any one of those aspects makes your character sub optimal. Now, sub optimal isn't a cardinal sin or anything. But pulling away the kind of point-buy stats points to achieve a truly charismatic evangelist that I'm envisioning (16+ Cha) is going to make this cleric absolutely worse at those things that the character is actually meant to be doing for his party, and not in a minor way. He's either going to be a liability because of low AC (or slow the party down with -10' speed) and poor melee attacks, or his concentration spells will fail quite regularly, or his spell save DCs are going to be untenably weak for his level.

Sure, you could just put a couple of points in Cha and call it good. But it doesn't make the character concept really work. Or you could saddle your party with a nerfed character who's sub optimal at the stuff they actually want him around for (BC, not being a glass cannon, making his spell slots count/last). Frankly, I haven't played this concept yet, and I probably never will, because of the imposition of saddling my party with a messed up character who's bad at his job and puts his resources into proselytizing instead.

That said, I'd be too concerned about balance issues from swapping casting stats out to ever ask to do this.

[Man_Over_Game]

That said, I'd be too concerned about balance issues from swapping casting stats out to ever ask to do this.

Really take a look at my Prestige Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578643-MOG-Mechanics-Prestige-Options-(Adapt-existing-classes-to-create-unique-characters)&p=23638903&viewfull=1#post23638903). I extend a challenge to anyone to surprise me with the most overpowered build they can imagine while using them.

[Rukelnikov]

Really take a look at my Prestige Options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578643-MOG-Mechanics-Prestige-Options-(Adapt-existing-classes-to-create-unique-characters)&p=23638903&viewfull=1#post23638903). I extend a challenge to anyone to surprise me with the most overpowered build they can imagine while using them.

I checked them and half have the "you cannot MC into X or Y" restriction, which means you already acknowledge there's an inherent brokenness in them

BTW: High Elf Bladesinger/Monk(Int)X sounds very powerful

[Man_Over_Game]

I checked them and half have the "you cannot MC into X or Y" restriction, which means you already acknowledge there's an inherent brokenness in them

I mean, sure?

Using Intelligence for a Warlock and banning Multiclassing has no problems. Pretty much anyone would agree on that.
Combining Warlock with Eldritch Knight (for spammable Shield/Absorb Elements on a melee class) is a problem. However, Arcane Trickster + Warlock is not.

Find the specific problems and deal with them directly. The main reason people don't like the idea of mix-matching attributes is a balance concern, right? So address it like it's a balance concern. Rather than punishing everyone for a few bad cases, just fix the bad cases. Games don't remove entire classes because a class spell is OP.



BTW: High Elf Bladesinger/Monk(Int)X sounds very powerful

Good call, I'll take a look and see what can be done about it.

[Edit] It already says "You cannot have more Wizard levels than you have Monk levels" as part of the requirement.

A Monk could gain access to Bladesong, but without having high level Concentration spells to use it with, it just becomes a mostly AC/mobility benefit. It's not better than Barbarian Rage when high level casting is taken out, I'd say.

Most of the casting benefits of the Bladesong are wasted on someone who's, at most, a half-caster. Focusing too much on Intelligence when you don't have high level spells and don't use it for your attacks is expensive, and you can't even cheese out Intelligence-based attacks like you could using Wisdom. Shillelagh was the workaround for High Wis Monks to not need Dexterity, and the Intelligence version loses access to that.

Take this for an example:
Monk with 18 Dex and 10 Int: Has +4 AC, has +4 to hit and +4 to damage on all of his attacks.
Monk with 14 Dex and 14 Int: Has +2 AC, has +2 to hit and +2 to damage on all of his attacks. Can use cantrips and level 1 spells with +2 mod, and can occasionally gain +2 AC and +10 speed for a minute a few times a day.

Most people would choose the boring (first) one as an optimized choice.

Other than a +2 to AC a few times a day (and the occasional Shield), I don't see too many problems with a Bladesinger + Monk combo. Plus, it's a pretty cool theme for a character.

[Rukelnikov]

I mean, sure?

Using Intelligence for a Warlock and banning Multiclassing has no problems. Pretty much anyone would agree on that.
Combining Warlock with Eldritch Knight (for spammable Shield/Absorb Elements on a melee class) is a problem. However, Arcane Trickster + Warlock is not.

Find the specific problems and deal with them directly. The main reason people don't like the idea of mix-matching attributes is a balance concern, right? So address it like it's a balance concern. Rather than punishing everyone for a few bad cases, just fix the bad cases. Games don't remove entire classes because a class spell is OP.



Good call, I'll take a look and see what can be done about it.

[Edit] It already says "You cannot have more Wizard levels than you have Monk levels" as part of the requirement.

A Monk could gain access to Bladesong, but without having high level Concentration spells to use it with, it just becomes a mostly AC/mobility benefit. It's not better than Barbarian Rage when high level casting is taken out, I'd say.

Most of the casting benefits of the Bladesong are wasted on someone who's, at most, a half-caster. Focusing too much on Intelligence when you don't have high level spells and don't use it for your attacks is expensive, and you can't even cheese out Intelligence-based attacks like you could using Wisdom. Shillelagh was the workaround for High Wis Monks to not need Dexterity, and the Intelligence version loses access to that.

Take this for an example:
Monk with 18 Dex and 10 Int: Has +4 AC, has +4 to hit and +4 to damage on all of his attacks.
Monk with 14 Dex and 14 Int: Has +2 AC, has +2 to hit and +2 to damage on all of his attacks. Can use cantrips and level 1 spells with +2 mod, and can occasionally gain +2 AC and +10 speed for a minute a few times a day.

Most people would choose the boring (first) one as an optimized choice.

Other than a +2 to AC a few times a day (and the occasional Shield), I don't see too many problems with a Bladesinger + Monk combo. Plus, it's a pretty cool theme for a character.

What about Bladesinger4/Monk5

8
17(15+2)
14
20(15+1+2+2)
10
8

AC 23 and Shield, can go Blur for extra defense if necessary, or Shadow Blade for extra damage. Plus the OOC utility of being a Wiz.

It powerful but not broken at this point, I think the higher lvl goes, and including magic items into the equation, it may very well cross form powerful to broken.

[Man_Over_Game]

What about Bladesinger4/Monk5

8
17(15+2)
14
20(15+1+2+2)
10
8

AC 23 and Shield, can go Blur for extra defense if necessary, or Shadow Blade for extra damage. Plus the OOC utility of being a Wiz.

It powerful but not broken at this point, I think the higher lvl goes, and including magic items into the equation, it may very well cross form powerful to broken.

That's a good point.

Looking at it, though, an EK of the same level would be able to cast just as well and have a consistent 20 AC. They'd also have about 13 more HP (two level's worth) over the Monk/Bladesinger, and have more consistent access to magical weapons/armor. They'd also be able to attack a third time in a few more levels' time, or just decide to Action Surge Fireball to end a battle in a single turn.

With the Monk/Wiz, you'd be stuck with Wizard 4 for the remainder of your campaign due to not wanting your Extra Attacks to overlap, or risk taking a wasted level. It's definitely got it good at a few points, but I don't think it's enough to exclude it.

[Marcloure]

You know what? An Intelligence-based Sorcerer is just a Psion. There, just made you a psionic class. You are welcome.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I suppose it could be sort of munchkin. But on the other hand, I've never actually played the evangelist cleric PC that I'd like to, because of the problem with the stats.

...

Sure, you could just put a couple of points in Cha and call it good. But it doesn't make the character concept really work. Or you could saddle your party with a nerfed character who's sub optimal at the stuff they actually want him around for (BC, not being a glass cannon, making his spell slots count/last). Frankly, I haven't played this concept yet, and I probably never will, because of the imposition of saddling my party with a messed up character who's bad at his job and puts his resources into proselytizing instead.

Oddly enough, this is one of the concepts that's the easiest to do with the current mechanics. Divine Soul Sorcerer, acolyte background, maybe grab ritual caster cleric feat. Fits the entire thing.

Unless you're saying you want all the benefits and mechanics of the Cleric chassis along with also being able to have high charisma, which is looking at the concept from a purely mechanical view and would more thoroughly fall into being munchkin-y.

From a pure RP perspective, though, Divine Soul Sorcerer gives you everything.

[Bloodcloud]

Wizard multiclassing is probably the biggest beneficiary. Though, any amount of benefit this houserule gives would not exceed simply having crazy good stat rolls... so if you're fine with that level of power variance, you should be fine with this.

Also noteworthy is that Wisdom is generally a better stat than Cha and Int, so that's basically a buff even if you don't multiclass.

In the past I've allowed casters to sub in Cha or Int for their casting stat on the stipulation that they don't multiclass in the future. Had an Int-based Druid studying nature in one game. That was fun.

While Cha sucks for saving throw, it's use for skills is not to be underestimated.