Considering "Noisy Magic"

[Yora]

"I sense something. A presence I have not felt since..."

Bright lights can be seen from far away, loud noised can be heard from a distance. I was thinking about making magic a bit more flavorful and less convenient, which got me the idea of making magical creatures and spellcasters sensing the casting of spells from afar.

A charm person here and a minor illusion there might go completely unnoticed, but when you teleport around its lair the monster will almost certainly sense that there is some other powerful magical presence somewhere in the area. Summoning and divination spells might be particularly noisy as they reach out into the cosmos.

It would work the other way as well, giving spellcasters the ability to sense when other spellcasters or creatures using their powers nearby. Though in most situations, it would benefit the antagonists much more than the players.

The intended effect is that spellcasters might not be too keen to unleash magic at the drop of a hat, even if they can easily spare the spell. On the one hand, unpredictability is the whole point of it to make casting spells feel like a potentially dangerous gamble. But on the other hand, I think it would feel like bad form for the players when the GM drops in creatures seemingly from nowhere on a whim. I don't think there would have to be a very complicated system, but there should at least be some dice rolling involved before the GM has monsters be alerted to the party's presence without the players knowing.
Any idea for a simple but fun mechanical approach to this?

[bc56]

Whenever a creature casts a spell of 1st level or higher, they leave an imprint on the Weave. Other spellcasters within (reasonable range) can sense that another caster is nearby with a successful check using their casting ability, with a DC of (reasonable starting point) - (the spell's level)

I actually rather like this idea. Having the evil wizard (or death knight, for a more Vadery feel) able to sense the good guys could be pretty cool.

[malachi]

You could make it an arcana check to detect the presence of magic, or use someone's passive arcana for it. Make it DC 20 - spell level (or something to show that it's much harder to detect weak magic than strong magic) with some modifier for range. With this DC, a typical 1st level wizard can automatically sense 5th+ level spells being cast, while anyone of INT 12 or higher would be able to automatically sense a 9th level spell.

[NaughtyTiger]

Bascially I treat casting as noticeable within the range of the spell or at least within counterspell range

[PhoenixPhyre]

I tend to give people with magical sensibilities (either class, race, or background) flavor text based on Wisdom (Perception) about the magical environment around them. Intelligence (Arcana) is for active spells/effects/runes they want to analyze.

Things like "you can feel the aura of death wane as you ritually purify the area" or "something feels...agitated...here" or "there's a lot of elemental energy in the air around here".

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd just modify Detect Magic. It's kind of its niche. Adding a bunch of ways to detect magic when the spell is:

A ritual (is gained from Ritual Caster)
An invocation
Has 30 feet range
Uses Concentration

Seems like a major slap in the face.

My recommendation for Detect Magic:
The Range and Duration double for each spell slot level after slot level 1. However, past 30 feet, you can only determine if something is magical within range, and must make a DC 20 Intelligence (Arcana) check to determine more information (such as it being a creature/object/spell, what school, and other information). You gain a bonus to this DC equal to the slot you spent, the level of the spell, or the CR of the creature.

[Corpsecandle717]

I get what you're going for but I'm generally against any rule that would effectively gate access to classes features. There's a lot of RP fallout that is going to limit how characters act and adding additional arbitrary restrictions that one class has but other classes despite their seemingly supernatural abilities don't. It would make me feel hedged out for choosing to play a certain class. That said if your spell casters are down for it, cool, but there's some pretty big issues with arbitrating these kind of rules. I also fear that it may limit cunning spell usage, and standard things like getting the field area set up for an ambush becomes very limited. This seems like mostly stick and very little carrot for spell casters.

Which spells are 'sneaky' and which spells aren't? Can we sense someone who is invisible? How are illusions in general handled? How far out does this ability to sense go? Are certain races with their innate magic abilities going to be able to sense spells better than other races? What about ki? What about psionics? Can I tune my character to be better at sensing this stuff somehow? New feats? Is this limited to spell casting? What about class abilities like a Bard's Cutting Words, or a Druid in Wildshape? What does Detect Magic do now?

It's all a pretty significant undertaking to do it well I would think.

[Warped Wiseman]

But on the other hand, I think it would feel like bad form for the players when the GM drops in creatures seemingly from nowhere on a whim.

To address this, you should to talk to your players ahead of time.

As for actual crunch, I propose this system.

Base DC to detect a spell is 20 - spell level.

You can roll to detect (or use passive arcana as proposed above) spells within your caster level (as calculated for multi classing) * 200 ft * spell level ^ 3.

For every (spell level ^ 3) * 200 ft between you and the spell, the DC to detect it goes up by 1.

Some examples:

A 1st level wizard with 16 INT will have a passive score of 13. They have a chance to detect 1st level spells within 1200 ft. They can passively detect 9th level spells up to ~90 miles away.

A 20th level wizard with 20 INT will have a passive score of 19. The can passively detect 1st level spells within 200ft. The have a chance to detect 1st level spells within 2600 ft (~1/2 mile). They can passively detect 9th level spells within ~350 miles. They have a chance to detect 9th level spells within ~600 miles.

[Vogie]

I'd just modify Detect Magic. It's kind of its niche. Adding a bunch of ways to detect magic when the spell is:

A ritual (is gained from Ritual Caster)
An invocation
Has 30 feet range
Uses Concentration

Seems like a major slap in the face.

My recommendation for Detect Magic:
The Range and Duration double for each spell slot level after slot level 1. However, past 30 feet, you can only determine if something is magical within range, and must make a DC 20 Intelligence (Arcana) check to determine more information (such as it being a creature/object/spell, what school, and other information). You gain a bonus to this DC equal to the slot you spent, the level of the spell, or the CR of the creature.

I like this. Add the "Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher grants a duration that doesn't require concentration" that Bestow Curse has, as well.

[RifleAvenger]

I get what you're going for but I'm generally against any rule that would effectively gate access to classes features. There's a lot of RP fallout that is going to limit how characters act and adding additional arbitrary restrictions that one class has but other classes despite their seemingly supernatural abilities don't. It would make me feel hedged out for choosing to play a certain class. That said if your spell casters are down for it, cool, but there's some pretty big issues with arbitrating these kind of rules. I also fear that it may limit cunning spell usage, and standard things like getting the field area set up for an ambush becomes very limited. This seems like mostly stick and very little carrot for spell casters.The way nimbus work in Mage, and using them to ID a spellcaster or know another Mage is near, works very similarly to this. I can assure you it in no way prevents creative spellcasting or the ability to pull off an ambush, though it often does lead to additional contingencies and baffles to try and avoid being detected/identified. If such methods are missing in 5e, they ought to be added alongside the "noisy" mechanic.

Another thing might be that scrolls or other magic items have subdued signatures, and at the very least can't be used to distingush a given caster. Much like how rotes work in Mage.

[Chronos]

Quoth Corpsecandle717:

I get what you're going for but I'm generally against any rule that would effectively gate access to classes features.
Does it really gate access? I mean, a sword hitting against armor is pretty loud, and will alert anyone nearby that combat is going on, but most PCs don't usually let that stop them. Would it really be a problem if magic was similarly noticeable?

Except it isn't even really similarly noticeable, as the OP describes, because anyone can hear clanging swords, but only other spellcasters can "hear" the disruptions in the Weave or whatever this is.

On the other hand, if you're going to do this, you'll want to make it clear just who can sense it, because "spellcasters" covers a heck of a lot of ground, including (for instance) totem barbarians, arcane archers, shadow and elemental monks, all tieflings and drow, all high elves, forest gnomes, anyone with Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster... Really, most PCs end up being spellcasters.

[xkcd44]

Quite a cool idea. Here's how I'd do it.

As others said, have a DC check for detecting presence of a recently-cast spell. Whether you want the DC to be something like Arcana, so a well-trained non-magician might be able to detect evidence of recent spell-casting (e.g., a sparkle blow by on the wind; the faint hint of sulphur) or whether you'd prefer making it something like a caster DC check (so only spellcasters have any ability to Detect Magic*TM) is personal preference.

However, to alleviate some worries about randomness and the effect on lower-level parties, what I'd do is not only make the Detect* DC (obviously) scale up with the passage of time and the distance from the spell source, but also make the DC inversely correlated with spell level. So a level 1 spell is way, way harder to detect than a level 9 spell---which makes sense, as the latter effectively represents a huge disruption in the local forces of magic, whereas the former is barely a smidgen.

This preserves the basic flavour (and, I think, intent) of the system, while still making it easier on lower-leveled groups and, most importantly imo, leaving open the option of using spells for creative problem-solving. Given as a good deal of useful utility spells tend to be concentrated in lower-levels anyway (with higher-levels seeing more long-lasting buffs that can be cast a safe distance away), I think this is a neat compromise which would keep open a lot of niche solutions to tricky encounters. Although, the party would be aware that they themselves are also less likely to detect small-scale magic being used near (against) them, and would have to plan accordingly.

Depending on how you run it, though, (whether the person knows the spell's exact direction, whether they know it immediately, etc. ) it might still end up nerfing certain spell choices like Invisibility, but tbh I don't see it as being that much of a game-breaking loss. Just something to consider.

[sophontteks]

And how would subtle spell play into this?

[Man_Over_Game]

And how would subtle spell play into this?

Seconded. I'd also like every suggestion to include how Detect Magic fits with their concept.

[Max_Killjoy]

In my fiction that the setting over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549226-Cultures-Multiple-Pan-Asian-sources-in-a-WELL-DONE-quot-mashup-quot) is for, one has to be able to sense "magic" to use it (imagine trying to use a touch screen without being able to see it, for a rough parallel), though the two are not necessarily proportional. One of the protagonists' experience of it is described thus: "The Sun God’s bright magic was tangible here, pushing like a steady wind against her own shadowy power." In D&D she wouldn't a powerful caster at all, but she's 90th percentile or above (even among "casters" in that setting) in her ability to sense and discern those forces.

But, the magic in that setting doesn't work on rote or formulaic actions, it's far more about channeling and shaping those forces. No amount of finger-wiggling or guano-tossing alone will cause the slightest thing to happen, except reducing your chance of being invited to dinner.

Not sure how I'd incorporate "noisy magic" into D&D, which seems to assume a lot of "tab A, slot B, magic happens" casting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

But, the magic in that setting doesn't work on rote or formulaic actions, it's far more about channeling and shaping those forces. No amount of finger-wiggling or guano-tossing alone will cause the slightest thing to happen, except reducing your chance of being invited to dinner.

My understanding of D&D's basic magic system is that this is true. If a normal person does it...they don't have spell slots to spend. It takes effort, training, etc. to be able to channel the forces required. This is different than 3e, where anyone could learn wizardry.

[Max_Killjoy]

My understanding of D&D's basic magic system is that this is true. If a normal person does it...they don't have spell slots to spend. It takes effort, training, etc. to be able to channel the forces required. This is different than 3e, where anyone could learn wizardry.

Really?

Not doubting you, but... the discussions here seem to go back and forth about that, with some posters even asserting that a Wizard can just learn to cast by perfecting the execution of all the rigamarole in a spellbook, no actual grasp of magic itself required.

[JoeJ]

My understanding of D&D's basic magic system is that this is true. If a normal person does it...they don't have spell slots to spend. It takes effort, training, etc. to be able to channel the forces required. This is different than 3e, where anyone could learn wizardry.

Anybody can learn magic in 5e. Even if you don't have high enough ability scores to multiclass, you can take the Magic Initiate feat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Really?

Not doubting you, but... the discussions here seem to go back and forth about that, with some posters even asserting that a Wizard can just learn to cast by perfecting the execution of all the rigamarole in a spellbook, no actual grasp of magic itself required.

This is my understanding, probably colored by significant biases that way on my part. All the text saying otherwise seems to be from previous editions. This one doesn't clarify directly, but it does make clear that most priests are not clerics, and a lot of them cannot/do not ever cast spells, per se. Actual magic being rare is one of the underlying assumptions, as specified in the DMG. Sure, PCs run into it all the time, just like they run into dragons and other monsters. But the vast majority of NPCs never meet anyone capable of more than cantrips. This also explains warlocks--if anyone could pick up wizardry just like that...why the whole "take the shortcut" routine? In my mind it's because they realized they weren't cut out for it--they lack the essential something to do it the traditional way. It's why "real" spellcasters that make Pacts don't get to add their spell slots together--they're fundamentally a different type of energy source.

My setting actually makes that a hard principle, except that there's lots of "magic" available elsewhere. It's all limited scale or requires blood sacrifice. The whole split between high and wood elves was over wizardry--those who could do wizardry worked to breed better wizards and made those who couldn't second-class citizens. Those outcasts later sacrificed themselves to allow druidism (talking to/commanding spirits) and took revenge.


Anybody can learn magic in 5e. Even if you don't have high enough ability scores to multiclass, you can take the Magic Initiate feat.

Feats are optional PC things. They may or may not exist for NPCs. That's also very limited--you learn a couple tricks but don't have actual spell slots.

[Max_Killjoy]

"I sense something. A presence I have not felt since..."

Bright lights can be seen from far away, loud noised can be heard from a distance. I was thinking about making magic a bit more flavorful and less convenient, which got me the idea of making magical creatures and spellcasters sensing the casting of spells from afar.

A charm person here and a minor illusion there might go completely unnoticed, but when you teleport around its lair the monster will almost certainly sense that there is some other powerful magical presence somewhere in the area. Summoning and divination spells might be particularly noisy as they reach out into the cosmos.

It would work the other way as well, giving spellcasters the ability to sense when other spellcasters or creatures using their powers nearby. Though in most situations, it would benefit the antagonists much more than the players.

The intended effect is that spellcasters might not be too keen to unleash magic at the drop of a hat, even if they can easily spare the spell. On the one hand, unpredictability is the whole point of it to make casting spells feel like a potentially dangerous gamble. But on the other hand, I think it would feel like bad form for the players when the GM drops in creatures seemingly from nowhere on a whim. I don't think there would have to be a very complicated system, but there should at least be some dice rolling involved before the GM has monsters be alerted to the party's presence without the players knowing.
Any idea for a simple but fun mechanical approach to this?


On the "fiction" level (ie, the setting details), how do you actually think of magic as working in your setting? What's going on?

[JoeJ]

Feats are optional PC things. They may or may not exist for NPCs. That's also very limited--you learn a couple tricks but don't have actual spell slots.

Feats per se may not be available for NPCs, but having Magic Initiate available at all shows that at least some people can learn to cast a few spells without a special background, and presumably without any great understanding of how magic works. Racial spells show this too; a high elf gets a cantrip even if they're a champion fighter who dumped intelligence and who neither knows nor cares how magic works.

[Yora]

On the "fiction" level (ie, the setting details), how do you actually think of magic as working in your setting? What's going on?

Not really sure about this. This is an attempt to give it some distinctivness.

The general setup is that in its natural state the whole world is the Feywild, but the worship of guardian deities in temples creates regions that behave like a regular material planes around them. Warlocks are looking for alternative sources of similar power that give them more direct control over how the supernatural forces in their domains are changed. Some where quite successful and made themselves god kings, but much more often it accidentally resulted in necromantic wastelands.
One idea I very much like is that sensing the supernatural world isn't like seeing invisible things, but like hearing a signal in the noise. Spirits are whispering everywhere all the time, but normally everything is drowning everything else out and regular people aren't even aware of it. The basics of magic is to learn to sennse it and make out useful information, and to also make themselves heard. Which is why magic in the setting focuses on divination and conjuration that commuicates with spirits, and enchantment and illusion that slip outside thoughts and ideas into people's unconsciousness without them noticing it. Abjuration and transmutation is invisible spirits interfering on your behalf. Evocation and necromancy is almost exclusive to warlocks, whose powers explicitly break the natural laws of magic because they are channeled from other realities.
In flavor, it's really much more psionics than regular magic, but I don't want to bother with switching out the whole magic mechanics. Though as interesting as it is, it doesn't actually have any effect on anything yet.

Since most magic is shouting out to the spirits or into other people's mind, it feels somewhat appropriate that other beings that can use magic could sense it. As there is always a backgrund buzz present, higher level spells should have a much higher chance to draw someone's attention than lower level spells. Perhaps cantrips are so weak that they are effectively undetectable unless someone is actively listening for them nearby with detect magic. This should also significantly reduce the total amount of checks that would have to be rolled during a campaign.
I certainly don't want to make a roll for every magical being in the whole area every time someone casts a spell. That's impractically work intensive. On the other hand, having the player or NPC roll and either all magical beings take notice or none do also wouldn't be much fun. I think some abstraction and arbitrary GM choice would make sense.

Another possible aspect that comes to mind is "when you listen too long to the spirits, the spirits also listen to you". But I think going in that direction would possibly get too intrusive and obstructive to be much fun for the players.

[EggKookoo]

Really?

Not doubting you, but... the discussions here seem to go back and forth about that, with some posters even asserting that a Wizard can just learn to cast by perfecting the execution of all the rigamarole in a spellbook, no actual grasp of magic itself required.

The books are pretty silent on it, I think. My interpretation is that just about anyone can become a spellcaster. Otherwise what is a fighter doing when he takes a level of wizard? I don't know the devs' minds but I suspect that's the intention.

However, in my new setting I'm making spell slots a physical thing. A weird neurological structure that forms in the brain. You have to be predisposed, like it's a genetic trait. Most spellcasters are just born with that genetic potential and the structures form when they begin studying magic. Sorcerers are born with the actual structures in place. Wizards and other "prepared spell" classes have a variation on those structures.

But in my opinion I'm deviating significantly from the intent of the default game (I want a more SF-ey feel).

[PhoenixPhyre]

The books are pretty silent on it, I think. My interpretation is that just about anyone can become a spellcaster. Otherwise what is a fighter doing when he takes a level of wizard? I don't know the devs' minds but I suspect that's the intention.

However, in my new setting I'm making spell slots a physical thing. A weird neurological structure that forms in the brain. You have to be predisposed, like it's a genetic trait. Most spellcasters are just born with that genetic potential and the structures form when they begin studying magic. Sorcerers are born with the actual structures in place. Wizards and other "prepared spell" classes have a variation on those structures.

But in my opinion I'm deviating significantly from the intent of the default game (I want a more SF-ey feel).

I look at PCs as having indeterminate potential, the full scope of which is only known in retrospect. We discover that a particular fighter has magical potential when they take a level of wizard. If they never develop magic, then they didn't have that potential.

I also have "spell slots as physical (well, really soul-based) things"--it's the only explanation for the pseudo-vancian casting that I've found that works, and I feel it fits the intent of the game pretty darn well.

Cantrip-level magic is easy to do, and represents the limits of what most people can do if they try. My setting has a lot of different cantrip-alternatives--chants, rituals, etc. that the common folk use because most of the PHB cantrips aren't what they need. High elves are naturally attuned to wizardry (because that's what they've been selectively breeding for for generations) and don't consider a child an adult until they've mastered a cantrip. Wood elves are attuned to the natural magics--their woodland stealth is them reaching out (consciously or not) to the kami around them and using them to "blend in". This comes from their past as well (wood elves being the outcasts of the high elves who couldn't/wouldn't do wizardry and who developed druidic magic to compensate). Humans (and halflings) are more attuned to the divine or the communal/song-based magics.

Spell slots are bundles of stored energy in the soul. Certain people have the ability (genetically) to create and fill these with concentrated ambient energy. Developing them more than trivially and especially developing multiple or multiple layers[1] of them requires practice and dedication. Higher level slots are more powerful than lower level ones (containing more energy), but not in integer ratios. So you can't just use 2 1st level slots to power a 2nd level spell.

Spells themselves are patterns that resonate when you feed energy through them. This resonant effect modulates the external ambient magic into the spell effect. So a fireball doesn't create actual fire--it imposes a fire aspect on the ambient field and brings it out in a specific area. Same with lightning--it's not actual lightning, just directed, resonant, lightning-aspect energy. So sorcerers have these patterns "built in" to their heritage, while wizards memorize the patterns, bards create them with harmonies and music. Clerics and druids get someone else (a god or nature spirits) to do it for them; clerics use their energy to open the channel, while druids feed their energy to the spirits, like a trainer feeding the lions as a reward. Warlocks don't normally have these patterns or slots, but their patron/pact tears the slots open (hence their weird behavior) and embeds the patterns in their souls (like an artificial sorcerer).

This same energy could also be used to empower the martial aspects--this is the source of a barbarian's Rage--the same energy as fuels spells, channeled into the body. So barbarians actually hulk out a bit when they rage. Rogues wrap themselves in this to perform their more-than-natural feats of skill and evasion. Fighters call on this to move faster than most can and to mend their injuries (Action Surge and Second Wind). Etc. This is why martials who pick up casting aren't full casters, and why full-casters struggle to do the martial side. They've focused their energy elsewhere. Hit die are a manifestation of this same thing--if you're putting your energy into the body, you're more resilient to attacks. If you put it into spells, you're more fragile. It's opportunity cost, made an actual physical thing. Each person only has so much energy, so the more you put in one place, the less you can put elsewhere.

[EggKookoo]

I look at PCs as having indeterminate potential, the full scope of which is only known in retrospect. We discover that a particular fighter has magical potential when they take a level of wizard. If they never develop magic, then they didn't have that potential.

I can buy that. I'm just not sure it's some kind of default for the game. If I were running a campaign in a FR/LotR-expy setting, I would have no problem with the wizard showing the fighter how to cast magic missile during some downtime. I mean in a purely non-combat, roleplaying exercise. The fighter could manage to fire off a single missile "all by himself" under close instruction. There would be some ambiguity if the fighter even cast it or if he somehow tapped into the wizard's ability, but in my mind I would have it be the fighter himself. The fighter wouldn't suddenly gain a spell slot or become an EK. He just happened, in a very controlled environment, to "align his mind" or somesuch.

I'm also likely to let wizards fire off magic missiles all day long without using spell slots. Just ones that can't hit anything or cause damage. I'm not a fan of discrete magic "super powers." Spells, in my view, are a game mechanic to help players get the playin' done. It's a lot fuzzier for the wizard. The spell slot is consumed as a mechanic to indicate the wizard is actually, you know, trying to be effective with the spell. One thing I like about rituals is how they feed into that notion. I wish more spells had the ritual tag.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I can buy that. I'm just not sure it's some kind of default for the game. If I were running a campaign in a FR/LotR-expy setting, I would have no problem with the wizard showing the fighter how to cast magic missile during some downtime. I mean in a purely non-combat, roleplaying exercise. The fighter could manage to fire off a single missile "all by himself" under close instruction. There would be some ambiguity if the fighter even cast it or if he somehow tapped into the wizard's ability, but in my mind I would have it be the fighter himself. The fighter wouldn't suddenly gain a spell slot or become an EK. He just happened, in a very controlled environment, to "align his mind" or somesuch.

I'm also likely to let wizards fire off magic missiles all day long without using spell slots. Just ones that can't hit anything or cause damage. I'm not a fan of discrete magic "super powers." Spells, in my view, are a game mechanic to help players get the playin' done. It's a lot fuzzier for the wizard. The spell slot is consumed as a mechanic to indicate the wizard is actually, you know, trying to be effective with the spell. One thing I like about rituals is how they feed into that notion. I wish more spells had the ritual tag.

I see rituals as being an alternate way of gathering the energy for the spell. Instead of spending your own personal reserves, you slowly gather the energy from the environment as you shape the spell.

Personally, if I were remaking things, I'd split most of the "utility" magic off into rituals that anyone of the right power level could do but that take time and/or expensive components and/or locations of power, etc. Wizards and clerics (specifically) would have features that make them better at certain of those rituals--either faster, cheaper, or more effective/fewer side effects. So a cleric would excel at raising the dead, communing with gods, etc. A wizard would excel at things like creating permanent matter, teleportation, etc. But anyone could do them.

My biggest beef with D&D (as a whole) is the ravioli-style magic. There's no true specialization or thematicity within a class, and that makes no sense. It ends up making every half-optimized wizard look like any other half-optimized wizard. The document in my signature tries to get halfway toward a thematic view of magic without fundamentally remaking things. I use it for NPCs, mostly, at this point.

[Max_Killjoy]

I see rituals as being an alternate way of gathering the energy for the spell. Instead of spending your own personal reserves, you slowly gather the energy from the environment as you shape the spell.

Personally, if I were remaking things, I'd split most of the "utility" magic off into rituals that anyone of the right power level could do but that take time and/or expensive components and/or locations of power, etc. Wizards and clerics (specifically) would have features that make them better at certain of those rituals--either faster, cheaper, or more effective/fewer side effects. So a cleric would excel at raising the dead, communing with gods, etc. A wizard would excel at things like creating permanent matter, teleportation, etc. But anyone could do them.

My biggest beef with D&D (as a whole) is the ravioli-style magic. There's no true specialization or thematicity within a class, and that makes no sense. It ends up making every half-optimized wizard look like any other half-optimized wizard. The document in my signature tries to get halfway toward a thematic view of magic without fundamentally remaking things. I use it for NPCs, mostly, at this point.

I don't think there's room for it within 5e's mechanics, but I'd want to have rituals that anyone can do to skill check(s) involved as well as conditional requirements (one or more of place of power, right components, right conditions, right preparations, etc).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't think there's room for it within 5e's mechanics, but I'd want to have rituals that anyone can do to skill check(s) involved as well as conditional requirements (one or more of place of power, right components, right conditions, right preparations, etc).

I do them non-mechanically (or ad hoc). Once you have the right knowledge, the rest is a matter of proper preparation and not being disturbed. I assume that the PCs are competent enough to do it right.

I had a PC repair/rebuild a broken drone, turning it into a fan-favorite NPC that still gets talked about today. Once he had a power source and some time to tinker, the rest was just narrated. Another set of PCs devised a ritual to separate some souls that had been amalgamated into a "living computer"-style creature. That one took some spellcasting modifier and Intelligence(Arcana) checks. The wizard was doing the Arcana and making checks to weave the magic while the druid was doing similar checks (without the Arcana) to keep up a barrier to prevent cross-contamination. It wouldn't have been possible except they were sitting in a library full of all sorts of knowledge about souls and had basically unlimited time to research, as well as the full cooperation of NPCs that had experience moving souls around.

Same with NPCs--most of what they do that aren't listed in the book is about ritual magic. The book spells are only those that are nice easy "adventuring-size" packages. The vast majority of all spells that show up in the world aren't so nicely written down.

[Max_Killjoy]

I do them non-mechanically (or ad hoc). Once you have the right knowledge, the rest is a matter of proper preparation and not being disturbed. I assume that the PCs are competent enough to do it right.

I had a PC repair/rebuild a broken drone, turning it into a fan-favorite NPC that still gets talked about today. Once he had a power source and some time to tinker, the rest was just narrated. Another set of PCs devised a ritual to separate some souls that had been amalgamated into a "living computer"-style creature. That one took some spellcasting modifier and Intelligence(Arcana) checks. The wizard was doing the Arcana and making checks to weave the magic while the druid was doing similar checks (without the Arcana) to keep up a barrier to prevent cross-contamination. It wouldn't have been possible except they were sitting in a library full of all sorts of knowledge about souls and had basically unlimited time to research, as well as the full cooperation of NPCs that had experience moving souls around.

Same with NPCs--most of what they do that aren't listed in the book is about ritual magic. The book spells are only those that are nice easy "adventuring-size" packages. The vast majority of all spells that show up in the world aren't so nicely written down.

"Having the right knowledge" is part of what's not easy to represent mechanically in D&D, outside of just appending a list of "known rituals and rites", a simple 0/1 bit flip. Maybe that's enough. No XP expended, no Skill slots needed, just "hey, player, make sure you keep a list of the rituals your PC has learned".

[PhoenixPhyre]

"Having the right knowledge" is part of what's not easy to represent mechanically in D&D, outside of just appending a list of "known rituals and rites", a simple 0/1 bit flip. Maybe that's enough. No XP expended, no Skill slots needed, just "hey, player, make sure you keep a list of the rituals your PC has learned".

Most rituals that have come up have been one-off things they've researched for that circumstance. Plus the "any competent adult would know this" things like how to respect the dead in your home way.

If I were to transform things like teleport or raise dead into a ritual-only effect (instead of a spell-slot spell), I'd have a more formal method of learning the rituals. It'd be the sort of thing you research once and keep the notes around. And researching them/gathering the materials would either be as quest rewards (do this job and the Arcane society will teach you how to...) or as quests themselves ("you'll need an eye of a manticore...")

[RifleAvenger]

Really?

Not doubting you, but... the discussions here seem to go back and forth about that, with some posters even asserting that a Wizard can just learn to cast by perfecting the execution of all the rigamarole in a spellbook, no actual grasp of magic itself required.Also, as an example, the Hobgoblin Devastator wizards in Volo's Guide are described as being taught rigorously HOW to cast spells, but not at all how magic really works behind the scenes.

Which seems to be suggest Magic in 5e works reliably and in a formulaic manner, since it can be taught in a way that black boxes any real understanding beyond "wiggle index finger just so, shout words at correct pitch and tempo, toss guano, get fireball."

Except, in contrast, the same book describes hobgoblins going around to try and find any younglings with the "capacity for magic." Which suggests entirely the opposite! Unless they just mean "has a great INT score."

D&D having inconsistent setting details? Who would have thought?

[Man_Over_Game]

Also, as an example, the Hobgoblin Devastator wizards in Volo's Guide are described as being taught rigorously HOW to cast spells, but not at all how magic really works behind the scenes.

Which seems to be suggest Magic in 5e works reliably and in a formulaic manner, since it can be taught in a manner that black boxes any real understanding beyond "wiggle index finger just so, shout words at correct pitch and tempo, toss guano, get fireball."

Except, in contrast, the same book describes hobgoblins going around to try and find any younglings with the "capacity for magic." Which suggests entirely the opposite! Unless they just mean "has a great INT score."

D&D having inconsistent setting details? Who would have thought?

Not everyone really understands the chemical reaction to how fire works, yet everyone knows you just need heat and something to burn and it works anyway. Kinda like that, from the sound of things.

Kinda makes me wonder what the "easy" steps of conjuring magic would be.

[JoeJ]

Kinda makes me wonder what the "easy" steps of conjuring magic would be.

Traditionally, the easy part of conjuration is getting something to show up. Getting it to do what you want rather than just kill you is the hard part.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also, as an example, the Hobgoblin Devastator wizards in Volo's Guide are described as being taught rigorously HOW to cast spells, but not at all how magic really works behind the scenes.

Which seems to be suggest Magic in 5e works reliably and in a formulaic manner, since it can be taught in a way that black boxes any real understanding beyond "wiggle index finger just so, shout words at correct pitch and tempo, toss guano, get fireball."

Except, in contrast, the same book describes hobgoblins going around to try and find any younglings with the "capacity for magic." Which suggests entirely the opposite! Unless they just mean "has a great INT score."

D&D having inconsistent setting details? Who would have thought?

I don't think those two are really inconsistent.

The actual mechanics may be formulaic, but there can be a threshold requirement. IE you can just "paint by the numbers", but only if you have the genetic quirk needed to unlock it at all, and the magnitude of your quirk defines how much power you can output.

This is a standard trope of magic--some people are naturally gifted, others are muggles. The muggles can learn all the incantations and stir the potions exactly right, waving their wand or whatever, but nothing will happen. And even among those with the Gift, you get some who can naturally call forth epic storms of magic without any understanding while someone who has studied for years (but is less gifted) may only be able to barely light a candle.

Edit: one reason I like this idea is that it lets me have people who are "theoretical" magicians. They've studied all the formalisms, they know all the details (and so make very good sages and advisors), but they don't have any personal power. In fact, it's a good thing for world-building stability if the actual operative mages are few and far between, at least at the high-power end. So there might be people who know about these ninth-level spells or apocalyptic rituals but can't actually carry them out.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't think those two are really inconsistent.

The actual mechanics may be formulaic, but there can be a threshold requirement. IE you can just "paint by the numbers", but only if you have the genetic quirk needed to unlock it at all, and the magnitude of your quirk defines how much power you can output.

This is a standard trope of magic--some people are naturally gifted, others are muggles. The muggles can learn all the incantations and stir the potions exactly right, waving their wand or whatever, but nothing will happen. And even among those with the Gift, you get some who can naturally call forth epic storms of magic without any understanding while someone who has studied for years (but is less gifted) may only be able to barely light a candle.

Edit: one reason I like this idea is that it lets me have people who are "theoretical" magicians. They've studied all the formalisms, they know all the details (and so make very good sages and advisors), but they don't have any personal power. In fact, it's a good thing for world-building stability if the actual operative mages are few and far between, at least at the high-power end. So there might be people who know about these ninth-level spells or apocalyptic rituals but can't actually carry them out.

Isn't what you're describing a Wizard vs. a Sorcerer, though?

That is, learned magic vs. inherent magic?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Isn't what you're describing a Wizard vs. a Sorcerer, though?

That is, learned magic vs. inherent magic?

No. A sorcerer is magical. The patterns are instinctive, not learned. You can't learn to be a sorcerer, no matter how much potential you have. You either are one or you're not. And sorcerers don't study, they practice "feeling" the magic.

A wizard has to learn the patterns. They have to study and memorize their spells. But they still (as I picture it) need the spark, the Gift to turn that wand-waving and guano sprinkling into a bolt of flame. PCs, being PCs, have that Gift inherently (at least in potential), but NPCs may or may not.

Someone with the Gift

Wizards needing a gift as well is a standard part of fiction. CF Harry Potter, where it runs in bloodlines but they still have to study. As well as many many (most?) other forms of fiction. I'm not sure of any non-3e D&D sources where wizardry is just purely an intellectual thing. And that's certainly not true for any of the other types of magic. Not all musicians are (or can be) bards. Not all devout priests can use clerical magic. Not all friends of nature are druids. Etc. So having wizards being special doesn't sit right with me. It requires particular assumptions about the nature of magical power that have bad consequences for the coherence of the world I'm building.

This Gift (or lack there of) forms one of the common tropes of warlocks, in fact--they're people who dropped out of wizardry because they couldn't hack it and took a shortcut for access to power they didn't have.

Even the "Creating a Wizard" section of the PHB has the line "How did you discover you had an aptitude for it?"

[Max_Killjoy]

D&D having inconsistent setting details? Who would have thought?


Perish the thought!

[JoeJ]

D&D having inconsistent setting details? Who would have thought?

Too much consistency in a setting would feel artificial. Reality is messy (at the level of everyday observation, anyway).

[Stygofthedump]

This is a very cool idea, I’d treat it exactly like perception except with arcana skill and casting stat.

[noob]

Really?

Not doubting you, but... the discussions here seem to go back and forth about that, with some posters even asserting that a Wizard can just learn to cast by perfecting the execution of all the rigamarole in a spellbook, no actual grasp of magic itself required.

You can have an int 3 wizard so it means it does not involve understanding too much more complex than additions or reading or writing.

Also it is quite disappointing to have magic always being spark based because the whole wizard sorcerer rivalry change from that(in 3.5 the wizard was the one who earned magic through study while the sorcerer just got it somehow and now both just got the ability to do magic innately)

[Max_Killjoy]

You can have an int 3 wizard so it means it does not involve understanding too much more complex than additions or reading or writing.

Also it is quite disappointing to have magic always being spark based because the whole wizard sorcerer rivalry change from that (in 3.5 the wizard was the one who earned magic through study while the sorcerer just got it somehow and now both just got the ability to do magic innately)

We just had that debate in another thread, and I'm firmly of the position that 3 INT can't handle the intellectual rigors of learning magic, and that there's more to it than just the exceedingly correct rote finger-wiggles and chants involved in making magic stuff happen.

If one wants Wizard magic to be earned through study, then it has to be something more than what an exceptional dog or baboon could manage.

[EggKookoo]

We just had that debate in another thread, and I'm firmly of the position that 3 INT can't handle the intellectual rigors of learning magic, and that there's more to it than just the exceedingly correct rote finger-wiggles and chants involved in making magic stuff happen.

If I had a player with a 3 Int PC who wanted to make that PC a wizard, I would certainly try to talk them out of it. I would hope they had something in mind that would make it interesting. I don't mind wacky builds. The PC would have a spell save DC of 7 and a spell attack modifier of -2 at first level, and would only know one spell for at least the first five levels. I think I would press the player to explain how that would be fun to play.

But I don't think I can justify saying they simply can't do it outside of "it would ruin the game I have mind." Luckily this hasn't been an actual problem...