Source for Kobold PCs

[LibraryOgre]

Just a quick one: What's the official source for Kobolds as PC race?

[Sigreid]

Volo's Guide to Monsters

[LibraryOgre]

Thank you! I thought so, but wanted to check.

EDIT: Ok, where? I see a lot of variant kobolds, but no stats for Kobold PCs.

[Snowbluff]

Thank you! I thought so, but wanted to check.

EDIT: Ok, where? I see a lot of variant kobolds, but no stats for Kobold PCs.

Under "Monstrous Races" page 119.

They have sunlight sensitivity, pack tactics, and can grovel. -2 Str, +2 dex.

[LibraryOgre]

Awesome. Thank you.

EDIT: I read it. I really kinda hate it.

[Sigreid]

Awesome. Thank you.

EDIT: I read it. I really kinda hate it.

My table has pretty much house ruled to drop the -2 str and the grovel. I say pretty much because no one has played one yet.

[DarkKnightJin]

My table has pretty much house ruled to drop the -2 str and the grovel. I say pretty much because no one has played one yet.

That seems like a decent houserule to make Kobolds at least a little less annoying.
Still not sure why Kobold is the only race option that gets a net racial ASI of +0, when other races get net +3. And Half-Elves get +4, effectively.

Your houserule would make Str based Kobolds at least an option without needing a roll of 18 to start with a +3 in the stat.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That seems like a decent houserule to make Kobolds at least a little less annoying.
Still not sure why Kobold is the only race option that gets a net racial ASI of +0, when other races get net +3. And Half-Elves get +4, effectively.

Your houserule would make Str based Kobolds at least an option without needing a roll of 18 to start with a +3 in the stat.

They're not really meant to be strong, I'm not sure why you'd want to make one reliant on Strength other than to subvert that expectation. Them being a small race doesn't help as it leaves their best melee weapon as Longsword rather than Greatsword.

Pack Tactics is a pretty strong bonus to have in my opinion, and in most cases where I'd choose to take a Kobold I'm definitely not interested in my Strength stat in the slightest.

Also, just to point this out, Orc's also have a -2 to one of their stats giving them a net total of +1. They don't even really have that great of a bonus (Aggressive, bonus action movement) to make up for this (arguable) weakness.

If the stats for a Kobold PC seem weak I would argue that they're well designed. Kobold's outside of a group are weak.

[Luccan]

They're not really meant to be strong, I'm not sure why you'd want to make one reliant on Strength other than to subvert that expectation. Them being a small race doesn't help as it leaves their best melee weapon as Longsword rather than Greatsword.

Pack Tactics is a pretty strong bonus to have in my opinion, and in most cases where I'd choose to take a Kobold I'm definitely not interested in my Strength stat in the slightest.

Also, just to point this out, Orc's also have a -2 to one of their stats giving them a net total of +1. They don't even really have that great of a bonus (Aggressive, bonus action movement) to make up for this (arguable) weakness.

If the stats for a Kobold PC seem weak I would argue that they're well designed. Kobold's outside of a group are weak.

Yeah, but most tables I've been at have 6 people at most (and kobold tribes have dozens of warriors). Sure, the monsters are pretty weak, but making a PC option suck because "lore" is both as good a reason to not make it an option at all and means Goblins, at the very least, should also be a pretty abysmal option.

Edit: As for Orcs, the fact that they suck too is also not great. I can see the arguments for giving these two races the only minuses to stats in the game (though I don't think it was in anyway necessary), but I'd argue that kobold only barely makes up for it with racial abilities. Orcs flat out don't make up for their loss in build versatility and are weaker than their half breed offspring in pretty much every way.

*

Frankly, I'd just drop the -2 Str and let players switch our Grovel for something maybe not as useful (it's actually a decent ability with crappy fluff), but less narrow roleplay-wise. Something to do with mining or traps, perhaps? Pack Tactics is good, so not getting the benefit of a total +3 to stats seems like a fair enough compromise. They come out a bit ahead, I think, but so does V. Human, which is more adaptable, and people still play other races.

[qube]

Awesome. Thank you.

EDIT: I read it. I really kinda hate it.
While at the one hand it does veers toward a certain playstyle - that's not neccecairly a bad thing.

Both kobold flavor & kobold abilities are in sync - in that they gear toward sneaky basterdly rogues.

+2 dex, darkvision & pack tactics ROCK for rogues.
I <3 Grovel, as it's SO .... kobold. You capture one - it starts begging for it's life, but it's also actually a trap - a diversion for you to get killed by the other guys.

I honestly don't care about a -2 on a stat I ain't using, over a +1 on a stat I ain't using.

Sunlight sensitivity ... that kinda sucks, but usually I see it rule that pack tactics & sunlight sensitivity negate each other. (opposite to the silly RAW that says, that it don't matter you got 5 times advantage & only once disadvantege you got, it's a netresuslt of zero. Rule of fun instantly overwrites this.)

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yeah, but most tables I've been at have 6 people at most (and kobold tribes have dozens of warriors). Sure, the monsters are pretty weak, but making a PC option suck because "lore" is both as good a reason to not make it an option at all and means Goblins, at the very least, should also be a pretty abysmal option.

Edit: As for Orcs, the fact that they suck too is also not great. I can see the arguments for giving these two races the only minuses to stats in the game (though I don't think it was in anyway necessary), but I'd argue that kobold only barely makes up for it with racial abilities. Orcs flat out don't make up for their loss in build versatility and are weaker than their half breed offspring in pretty much every way.

*

Frankly, I'd just drop the -2 Str and let players switch our Grovel for something maybe not as useful (it's actually a decent ability with crappy fluff), but less narrow roleplay-wise. Something to do with mining or traps, perhaps? Pack Tactics is good, so not getting the benefit of a total +3 to stats seems like a fair enough compromise. They come out a bit ahead, I think, but so does V. Human, which is more adaptable, and people still play other races.

I don't think they do suck, I think they just suck as a race for Str classes. I don't personally think that's a bad thing.

I think the only reason that they have a negative at all is because they're Monsters. Monsters that are very iconic for specific reasons. Even the most physically gifted Kobold's aren't very strong, Dragonshields have supernatural strength for Kobolds, giving them a mighty 12. There is a very strong emphasis on their physical weakness and how fighting as a pack is meant to overcome that.

While we're on the topic, Goblins are also iconic, but they tend not to be stereotyped as particularly physically weak or stupid.

We can only assume on the specific reasons why they were given these negatives to their stats but that's my best guess. Thematically I think it works great and I don't think mechanically it affects them from being something they typically would have been. I'll definitely concede that it could probably have been done better.

[DarkKnightJin]

They're not really meant to be strong, I'm not sure why you'd want to make one reliant on Strength other than to subvert that expectation. Them being a small race doesn't help as it leaves their best melee weapon as Longsword rather than Greatsword.

Pack Tactics is a pretty strong bonus to have in my opinion, and in most cases where I'd choose to take a Kobold I'm definitely not interested in my Strength stat in the slightest.

Also, just to point this out, Orc's also have a -2 to one of their stats giving them a net total of +1. They don't even really have that great of a bonus (Aggressive, bonus action movement) to make up for this (arguable) weakness.

If the stats for a Kobold PC seem weak I would argue that they're well designed. Kobold's outside of a group are weak.

Halflings and Gnomes also aren't really meant to be 'strong', hence they don't get bonuses to Str.
The point is that Orcs and Kobolds are the ONLY race options in 5e that have an ability score penalty, which kinda flies in the face of their supposed 'no penalties so every race/class combo can work, but some races will innately be a bit better at being a certain class' they were going for.

That's the main reason I'd personally waive the -2 Str penalty for a player wanting to play a Kobold PC.
Same with the -2 Int for Orcs.
Monstrous race PCs are by definition kinda outcasts from the regular type of monster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Awesome. Thank you.

EDIT: I read it. I really kinda hate it.
That's about the standard reaction. They went a little overboard with the "weak and cowardly" aspect of kobolds and wound up with something weaker than supposedly comperable options. Ditto for orcs and "big and dumb."

(To be honest I think the monster races in general weren't designed with a great eye to balance; most are either really strong or really weak)

[Sigreid]

They're not really meant to be strong, I'm not sure why you'd want to make one reliant on Strength other than to subvert that expectation. Them being a small race doesn't help as it leaves their best melee weapon as Longsword rather than Greatsword.

Pack Tactics is a pretty strong bonus to have in my opinion, and in most cases where I'd choose to take a Kobold I'm definitely not interested in my Strength stat in the slightest.

Also, just to point this out, Orc's also have a -2 to one of their stats giving them a net total of +1. They don't even really have that great of a bonus (Aggressive, bonus action movement) to make up for this (arguable) weakness.

If the stats for a Kobold PC seem weak I would argue that they're well designed. Kobold's outside of a group are weak.

Yeah, we would ditch the penalty on int as well. It bugs the hell out of me that these two races and only these two races violate their no attribute penalty standard.

And if halflings and gnomes don't need a strength penalty I can't see a reason it fits for kobolds.

[Great Dragon]

Yeah, we would ditch the penalty on int as well. It bugs the hell out of me that these two races and only these two races violate their no attribute penalty standard.

And if halflings and gnomes don't need a strength penalty I can't see a reason it fits for kobolds.

IMO - they did those penalties to these two Races to make the Players really think twice about choosing them over any other Racial Option for certain Classes.
So that the Gnome would be chosen over the Kobold most of the time.

Too many Years of Munchin Power-Gaming Players, don't you know.

Like an Orc Wizard, while possible for a PC, would not be their First Choice as a Player.
But an Elf as a Wizard most likely would be.

The Player's choice would be focused on the RolePlay of their particular Race/Class\Background combination, and less focus on the Roll-Play.

Keeping more towards Balance between the Three Pillars of Gameplay.

[Snowbluff]

I really feel like it should be errataed out. Who do we called to have something that grossly violates the design fixed?

[Keravath]

I think the main reason for net zero stats on a kobold is balance.

Pack tactics is an extremely effective ability, particularly for a rogue though it works well for most melee and ranged characters since the kobold gets advantage whenever there is an ally adjacent to the target. Hitting anything when part of a group and not in direct sunlight is about +3 to +5 easier for a kobold than anyone else. +3 to +5 is roughly the equivalent of increasing your attack stat by 6 to 10 points.

I've seen kobold monks, rogues and fighters in play and although they pretty much have to be dex based due to the stat modifiers they are all very effective.

The -2 to strength is mostly just for flavour since most folks would dump strength on a kobold anyway. The exception is if you are playing at a table that takes encumbrance seriously then you would likely need to boost the strength to carry gear and wear armour.

[Chronos]

Races that are designed to be played don't have ability score penalties. But kobolds and orcs aren't designed to be played. They're designed to be monsters. With Volo's, they've become playable, but that's still not their primary purpose.

It's a worldbuilding thing. They're trying to create a world where humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings are the primary races. Other races exist, but they're not as big a part of the world. But if there are thirty different races out there, all balanced equally, then those four "main races" will end up being only a small fraction of the population. And of course the problem only gets worse if they don't hit the balance just right, and some of the monstrous races end up a bit more powerful than the basic races.

[Joe the Rat]

The only place it really rubs is that folks tend to go to Strength for mining operations, which is like the third other thing they are known for (after "Traps" and "Level 1 cannon fodder"). Strength is nowhere near as essential as in prior editions thanks to weapon finesse, and holy crap are they awesome team players. Allies near the baddie, you get advantage. You near the baddies, you can give your allies advantage. So you are scrawny, grovely, low man on totem pole creatures that are dangerous in large numbers. You're a kobold.

The thing you miss most is spears not being a good kobold weapon compared to daggers and short swords.

In other words, you get to be this guy:
http://media.wizards.com/2014/images/dnd/articles/excerpt_MM_0916_2.png


Yes, perhaps they shouldn't have put penalties on kobold and orc stats - that is something they dropped after 3rd ed... mostly? Did they not have Strength penalities in 4? Because they effectively did in every other edition.
Here they geared them towards being stat-light but feature-rich - and did a better job with the kobolds than orcs in that regard. But IIRC, these stats are lifted directly out of the DMGs modifying NPCs by race section.

[LibraryOgre]

TBH, I don't mind so much about the strength penalty, but the "Grovel" option rubs me the wrong way, partially because it forces everyone to behave a certain way towards kobolds. If a kobold grovels, their allies get advantage to attack? A kobold grovelling is so distracting that people drop their guard, automatically, no save? AND Sunlight Sensitivity, with no superior senses to compensate (standard darkvision?) I mean, orcs don't even get sunlight sensitivity.

If my player is interested in them, I will probably drop Grovel and offer him free proficiency in thieves' tools, which goes along with their trap-maker reputation. I don't know about sunlight sensitivity, but, really, they're just poorly designed.

[Great Dragon]

TBH, I don't mind so much about the strength penalty, but the "Grovel" option rubs me the wrong way, partially because it forces everyone to behave a certain way towards kobolds. If a kobold grovels, their allies get advantage to attack? A kobold grovelling is so distracting that people drop their guard, automatically, no save? AND Sunlight Sensitivity, with no superior senses to compensate (standard darkvision?) I mean, orcs don't even get sunlight sensitivity.

Maybe giving Grovel to Goblins? (Make it a Deception vs Incite check?)
Since Goblins have that kind of Reputation, especially in Older Editions....
IDK, I would need more playtesting before really doing this....


If my player is interested in them, I will probably drop Grovel and offer him free proficiency in thieves' tools, which goes along with their trap-maker reputation. I don't know about sunlight sensitivity, but, really, they're just poorly designed.

This is interesting, and something I think I'll do for my Homebrew Games.
I'm not sure about the Sunlight Sensitivity, either.
I mean, I can understand Races that always avoid the Sun having it - like Drow and Duergar, etc.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, I can understand Races that always avoid the Sun having it - like Drow and Duergar, etc.

Kobolds do that, too.

[Joe the Rat]

TBH, I don't mind so much about the strength penalty, but the "Grovel" option rubs me the wrong way, partially because it forces everyone to behave a certain way towards kobolds. If a kobold grovels, their allies get advantage to attack? A kobold grovelling is so distracting that people drop their guard, automatically, no save?

You ever hear a toddler in a grocery store lose it? Yeah, it's like that.

Mechanically, it's Help. As an action, any character can take the Help action, to give an ally Advantage on their next attack on a creature. You just have to be adjacent to said creature. No saves, no rolls, your feint just works. You trade your action to make someone else's attempt more effective.

GCB is Area Effect Help, once per Rest. It requires you to be close (but not adjacent) to your enemies - and offers no protection to you. High risk for large volume reward. If Obnoxious Groveling, Loudly Cowering, or Incessant Begging doesn't work for you, describe it as something else. Making loud noises. Attempting a barbaric yawp that's just pathetic. Attempting a Dance Off. Using your most annoying nasal voice. A slightly out-of-control weapon kata. Insult comedy. Jumping up and shouting "Look at me! I'm a Distraction!"

[Great Dragon]

Kobolds do that, too.

By that logic, so should Mountain Dwarves.

[Unoriginal]

By that logic, so should Mountain Dwarves.

No, not at all.

Kobolds spend basically their whole lives underground and would rather not get outside. If you think they spend less time underground than the Drow, you are mistaken.

[Great Dragon]

No, not at all.

Kobolds spend basically their whole lives underground and would rather not get outside. If you think they spend less time underground than the Drow, you are mistaken.
I've always seen Kolbolds as being a lot like Rock Gnomes. Where they don't go very far underground - much less to the Underdark, and still need to go to the surface to Hunt and gather editable Flora, which is easier during the day.

Umm... Where is that actually written?
I'm AFK and don't have the books handy.

With Drow and Duergar it's actually part of their Culture and History.

And there are lots of stories about Mt Dwarves that spend generations without seeing the sun!

[ProsecutorGodot]

I've always seen Kolbolds as being a lot like Rock Gnomes. Where they don't go very far underground - much less to the Underdark, and still need to go to the surface to Hunt and gather editable Flora, which is easier during the day.

Umm... Where is that actually writteven?
I'm AFK and don't have the books handy.

With Drow and Duergar it's actually part of their Culture and History.

And there are lots of stories about Mt Dwarves that spend generations without seeing the sun!

It's not necessarily that they have sensitiviy to sunlight because they spend so much time underground, it's because of that sensitivity that they spend that time underground. While they are certainly able to live on the surface, it puts them at a disadvantage both because it doesn't allow them to make use of their expert tunneling skills and because of their sensitivity to sunlight.

Volo's Guide to Monsters: Kobold Environment

Kobolds are cold-blooded and thus prefer temperate and tropical climates. Kobold tribes in colder regions tend to be smaller in population and more aggressive in their hunting, since food is relatively scarce in such areas.

Partly out of fear and partly because their eyes are sensitive to sunlight, kobolds prefer the security of a cave to living in the open air, and can be found in any sort of terrain that can support tunneling. In a swamp or along a coastline where digging into the soft ground is problematic, kobolds entrench themselves in dense woods, hills, or large rock outcroppings, creating warrens above the water line.

Kobolds reside most commonly in hilly or mountainous terrain. Such locations usually have natural caves suitable for living space, plenty of room to dig, and ready sources of food. Although lairing in these locations puts kobolds in competition with surface-dwelling humanoids, their ability to avoid detection often means their warrens go unnoticed by their larger rivals. If it’s lucky, a tribe of kobolds that is discovered by a group of larger humanoids might form a mutually beneficial arrangement, relying on the humanoids for protection from invaders and in return providing services such as excavating new living spaces and disposing of trash. If it’s unlucky, the tribe is enslaved by the other humanoids, and the kobolds serve similar roles but under threat of death.

It makes sense for us to assume that it would be easier for someone to hunt in the day, but for Kobolds, I would be almost certain that they hunt at night while prey is asleep. Hunting in the day would put them at a disadvantage against even weak prey.

[Great Dragon]

It's not necessarily that they have sensitiviy to sunlight because they spend so much time underground, it's because of that sensitivity that they spend that time underground. While they are certainly able to live on the surface, it puts them at a disadvantage both because it doesn't allow them to make use of their expert tunneling skills and because of their sensitivity to sunlight.

It makes sense for us to assume that it would be easier for someone to hunt in the day, but for Kobolds, I would be almost certain that they hunt at night while prey is asleep. Hunting in the day would put them at a disadvantage against even weak prey.

Thanks for the info!
Would making it where a Kobold PC did not have sensitivity, due to constantly being exposed to the Sun? Or make them take the old 3x D&D Daylight Adaptation Feat?

[Luccan]

Drow get really good abilities to make up for sunlight sensitivity. Kobolds get really good abilities to make up for -2 Str and sunlight sensitivity, but they're much more situational and narrow RP wise (not to mention, as Mark Hall pointed out, Grovel is weird conceptually for everyone). If they don't want people playing kobolds, they shouldn't have made them an option. If they do (or if they're going to make it an option anyway), they shouldn't try to make things harder for players just because "monster race". That's how we got some of the crazy high Level Adjustments for monsters in 3.X: "Oh is it weird? Screw them over, then".

Also, kobolds aren't even that weird a player race; they've been played for at least a couple decades now and they're just small humanoids with scales.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Thanks for the info!
Would making it where a Kobold PC did not have sensitivity, due to constantly being exposed to the Sun? Or make them take the old 3x D&D Daylight Adaptation Feat?

I'm under the impression that their Sunlight Sensitivity is a biological flaw and not a culturally developed one. I would argue the same for Drow, although theirs would be caused by some form of adapting to the Underdark and less "they were just born with it" like it seems to be with Kobolds.

Most people just want to have fun at their table. While I personally think that it's a good thematic feature for them to have Sight rules, in general, are often not fun for a lot of people and surprisingly complicated on top of that. If I did have a player who wanted to play a Kobold or Drow I would probably give them a variation of the Knave's Eyepatch (added in Dragonheist to help Jarlaxle avoid his own sunlight sensitivity) that doesn't have any extra benefit.

Not right away though, I'm against mitigating that downside before the player has experienced the consequences.


Also, kobolds aren't even that weird a player race; they've been played for at least a couple decades now and they're just small humanoids with scales.
And they're physically weak with poor eyesight in sunlight. I'm all for having them be playable, I personally like that they're accurate to the settings expectations even as a player.

[Great Dragon]

What if I changed Grovel to Distract? Less of the required RP of begging for mercy?
And a little less confusing for newer players.

I was thinking:
Maybe making a Striker Monster type for Kobold, Drow, Duergar, etc.

(For the Kobold, this is simply a variation of the Dragonshield.
Drow = House Guard. Duergar = ???)

Does not have Sensitivity, since they are raised and trained to attack Surface outposts, isolated farms (regular types would harass these at night, and then the Strikers come in during the day = no rest for those defenders), and especially small groups of Travelers during the day - when those Regular PC Races are more likely to be encountered.

Less of the "Hide and wait for someone to happen to make a Camp nearby" and more of the "We take the fight to you" type.

And not relying on a Magic Item for each member of the Attack Team - especially in Low Level/Low Magic Games.

[ProsecutorGodot]

What if I changed Grovel to Distract? Less of the required RP of begging for mercy?
And a little less confusing for newer players.

I was thinking:
Maybe making a Striker Monster type for Kobold, Drow, Duergar, etc.

(For the Kobold, this is simply a variation of the Dragonshield.
Drow = House Guard. Duergar = ???)

Does not have Sensitivity, since they are raised and trained to attack Surface outposts, isolated farms, and small groups of Travelers during the day - when those PC Races are more likely to be encountered.

Less of the "Hide and wait for someone to happen to make a Camp nearby" and more of the "We take the fight to you" type.
I'm not saying this to be dismissive, but at this point, all you're creating is a Goblin.

I really do understand that having the limitations attached makes them slightly unappealing as a race, but those features are also what makes them different from a Goblin. If you take away Sunlight Sensitivity and GCB all you're left with is a small monstrous humanoid with a dex bonus, pretty boring in my opinion.

On the topic of GCB interfering with roleplaying (and to new players specifically) I heavily disagree. I'd actually argue that a small feature like this is the perfect opportunity to ask your player "so how does Spurt distract the fire giant?". It doesn't harm the mechanics or theme to have it be some sort of deception or distraction rather than an excessively teary eyes kobold wailing for help.

[Great Dragon]

I'm not saying this to be dismissive, but at this point, all you're creating is a Goblin.

Hummm. Well, it was an Idea.
If I keep it - What would you suggest that I give the Goblin version of that Type? Just to show that there is a difference.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hummm. Well, it was an Idea.
If I keep it - What would you suggest that I give the Goblin version of that Type? Just to show that there is a difference.

I assume you mean down this line of thinking

Less of the "Hide and wait for someone to happen to make a Camp nearby" and more of the "We take the fight to you" type.
In which case it's pretty simple. Replace the Nimble Escape feature that Goblins have with any feature that allows them to make more aggressive moves.
-Aggressive from Orcs
-+5ft base Speed
-Feline Agility from Tabaxi
-Bonus Action Dash/Dodge instead of Hide/Disengage

Goblins are already pretty well suited for Ambushing and Marauding.

[Great Dragon]

I assume you mean down this line of thinking
Indeed.


In which case it's pretty simple. Replace the Nimble Escape feature that Goblins have with any feature that allows them to make more aggressive moves.
-Aggressive from Orcs
<snip>
-Bonus Action Dash/Dodge instead of Hide/Disengage

Goblins are already pretty well suited for Ambushing and Marauding.

Those two interest me, would both be too much?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Those two interest me, would both be too much?

Aggressive is almost identical to using a bonus action to Dash, both would be redundant. I might consider (if you do want both) that you instead put a limitation on the Dash that if you do choose to Dash you must end your turn closer (or within 5ft, taking into account that you could start as close as possible to an enemy) to an enemy than you began.

[Chronos]

At the very least, any race with Sunlight Sensitivity should also have Improved Darkvision. Both basically amount to "adapted to living in the dark".

[Great Dragon]

At the very least, any race with Sunlight Sensitivity should also have Improved Darkvision. Both basically amount to "adapted to living in the dark".
I tend to agree.

Ok. How about:
Disengage/Hide as a bonus action, and Dodge as a reaction?

Would all these Strikers be CR 1?

I like experimenting - and making new things to challenge the PCs.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

AHAA! The Kobold Dex-Barb strikes again! This will happen eventually. You cannot hold me down forever!

[Rebonack]

Man, kobolds.

I get it that Pack Tactics is really powerful (unless your table is using Flanking rules), but it is just such a flavorless ability.

When I think kobolds I think tricksy and trapsy. I think that's part of the problem. There's this divide between people who imagine kobolds who fight dirty and avoid direct conflict vs people who imagine suicidal cannon fodder kobolds. Pact Tactics works GREAT for the latter and does little for the former.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Man, kobolds.

I get it that Pack Tactics is really powerful (unless your table is using Flanking rules), but it is just such a flavorless ability.

When I think kobolds I think tricksy and trapsy. I think that's part of the problem. There's this divide between people who imagine kobolds who fight dirty and avoid direct conflict vs people who imagine suicidal cannon fodder kobolds. Pact Tactics works GREAT for the latter and does little for the former.

I disagree, how better to capitalize on a successful trap than to gang up on the trapped target afterwards?

[Rebonack]

I disagree, how better to capitalize on a successful trap than to gang up on the trapped target afterwards?

Because no one is going to be adjacent to the poor adventurer who just fell into your spiked pit trap.

And if it is a trap that merely restrains the target (or blinds them, or any other nasty status effect), then once again Pack Tactics is proving to be useless. Or maybe a swinging log that clobbers them and knocks them prone? Once again, run up and stab! Got advantage already. In most cases where kobolds would be taking advantage of a trapped victim they'll already have, well, advantage from the trap itself.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Because no one is going to be adjacent to the poor adventurer who just fell into your spiked pit trap.

And if it is a trap that merely restrains the target (or blinds them, or any other nasty status effect), then once again Pack Tactics is proving to be useless. Or maybe a swinging log that clobbers them and knocks them prone? Once again, run up and stab! Got advantage already. In most cases where kobolds would be taking advantage of a trapped victim they'll already have, well, advantage from the trap itself.

I feel like you're missing my point. Whether or not you're gaining your advantage through the feature or through a trap, it makes the most sense for Kobolds to attack in packs. The feature facilitates that in scenarios where their traps do not.

Of course, none of them are going to leap in the pit to get "advantage" on the poor adventurer but they sure as heck are going to form a group and pelt him to death with stones.

You call it flavorless because the mechanics of the feature don't seem to line up with your expectations, I heavily disagree because, the way I see it, they're gaining the feature because of those expectations. It's in the same vein as Rogue's having sneak attack in my opinion. You can be a sneaky stealthy fighter who steals for the good of a people, but you aren't a rogue without sneak attack. You aren't a Kobold if you don't make the most of a numbers advantage to mitigate your physical weakness.

[Unoriginal]

The pack tactic is for when the traps fail and the enemies still manage to reach the kobolds.

Kobolds fight as a group. They work as a group, hunt as a group, steal as a group, and die as a group.



Note that the books are clear: while kobolds are known for their traps, it's not because the traps are well-crafted, or complexe and tricksy to disable. It's because their traps are simple, cheap to make, and in so high a concentration that the question is not if the intruders will be hurt, but how they will.

[Wryte]

I feel that the strength penalty really isn't necessary to reinforce that kobolds aren't generally strong, for the same reason no other small race needs a strength penalty: all small races get a +2 in Dex (except gnomes, and even then forest gnomes, the most commonly-played kind, get a +1). Because of how strength and dexterity work in this game, if you care about one, you generally don't care about the other, and the reduced number of ability score increases from leveling up make your racial ability bonuses very valuable. This means that small races, including kobolds, are already predisposed to shying away from strength builds (and usually outright dumping strength, especially in point buy games) in favor of dexterity by virtue of their bonuses, without having to outright pigeonhole them by penalizing their strength scores into a -2 instead of the -1 that most halflings, gnomes, and goblins will already choose to start with.

[Rebonack]

I feel like you're missing my point. Whether or not you're gaining your advantage through the feature or through a trap, it makes the most sense for Kobolds to attack in packs. The feature facilitates that in scenarios where their traps do not.

Of course, none of them are going to leap in the pit to get "advantage" on the poor adventurer but they sure as heck are going to form a group and pelt him to death with stones.

You call it flavorless because the mechanics of the feature don't seem to line up with your expectations, I heavily disagree because, the way I see it, they're gaining the feature because of those expectations. It's in the same vein as Rogue's having sneak attack in my opinion. You can be a sneaky stealthy fighter who steals for the good of a people, but you aren't a rogue without sneak attack. You aren't a Kobold if you don't make the most of a numbers advantage to mitigate your physical weakness.

I'm not missing your point, you're merely proving mine.

There's a fundamental disconnect in player impression of what kobolds should be. Some, like you, feel swarmy self-sacrificing cannon fodder is the core kobold experience. Group up in a giant pile of ankle biters and poke people to death taking advantage of Pack Tactics (or more likely get wiped out by the Sorcerer's AoE). There's nothing wrong with this stance. It is perfectly justified and justifiable. It is the angle that the devs went with.

The other side of this discussion, the side that feels the emphasis should be on guerilla tactics and dirty fighting where the kobolds explicitly avoid any direct confrontation whenever possible, are going to feel a little let down.

While we're here, it is worth pointing out that kobolds have never, in any edition prior to 5th, had any racial skills that gave them bonuses to swarm fighting. The first time they ever got a unique feature was in 4e with Shifty, which the Goblins more or less inherited with the ability to Disengage as a bonus action. So I'm not sure if comparing Pack Tactics to something as quintessential as Sneak Attack is wholly valid.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm not missing your point, you're merely proving mine.

There's a fundamental disconnect in player impression of what kobolds should be. Some, like you, feel swarmy self-sacrificing cannon fodder is the core kobold experience. Group up in a giant pile of ankle biters and poke people to death taking advantage of Pack Tactics (or more likely get wiped out by the Sorcerer's AoE). There's nothing wrong with this stance. It is perfectly justified and justifiable. It is the angle that the devs went with.

The other side of this discussion, the side that feels the emphasis should be on guerilla tactics and dirty fighting where the kobolds explicitly avoid any direct confrontation whenever possible, are going to feel a little let down.

While we're here, it is worth pointing out that kobolds have never, in any edition prior to 5th, had any racial skills that gave them bonuses to swarm fighting. The first time they ever got a unique feature was in 4e with Shifty, which the Goblins more or less inherited with the ability to Disengage as a bonus action. So I'm not sure if comparing Pack Tactics to something as quintessential as Sneak Attack is wholly valid.

Kobolds have always always always been described as physically weak (even more so than other small races) and their ability to use Guerilla Warfare tactics (which I'm not arguing against) does not diminish the fact that they have always worked better as a group.

I did not compare Pack Tactics to Sneak Attack as a requirement for any Kobold to have, simply as a thematically (and mechanically) fitting feature that exemplifies their tendency to work as a group. This is in the same way that Sneak Attack is a thematically (and mechanically) appropriate feature to exemplify that the archetypal Rogue is someone who hits hard and fast, being sneaky (or in the case of kobolds, building traps) is not all it takes to be one.

Apparently, we disagree on this, but my stance is that Kobolds are both cunning trap makers and pack fighters. I personally think that their pack fighting tendency is equally (if not more) important to the theming of Kobolds as their ability to set traps.

A Kobold who fights alone is a stupid Kobold.

[Rebonack]

I'm not sure where we're disagreeing, then?

I've already admitted that 'swarm fighters' is a completely justifiable take on the kobold's ecology in the Monster Manual. There are two ways a weaker foe can overcome a more powerful one. The first is with an overwhelming numerical advantage and the second is with asymmetric combat tactics.

I guess the design decision was that goblins would represent the asymmetric tactics side (bonus action Hide and Disengage) and the kobolds would represent the swarm fighters side (Pack Tactics). It makes sense for mechanical simplicity to only focus on the one or the other.

[Great Dragon]

There are two ways a weaker foe can overcome a more powerful one.
The first is with an overwhelming numerical advantage and the second is with asymmetric combat tactics.

I guess the design decision was that goblins would represent the asymmetric tactics side (bonus action Hide and Disengage) and the kobolds would represent the swarm fighters side (Pack Tactics). It makes sense for mechanical simplicity to only focus on the one or the other.

I wondered why the Devs chose those for each Race.

I mean, doing the reverse - with only a small change - (Pack Tactics for Goblins and bonus action - Dodge or Distract/Help and Disengage - for Kobolds) would have actually made more sense - at least to me.

This would have given Kobolds nearly the same Advantage of PT, but the difference is that Goblins get Automatic Advantage even if there are only two engaged in combat - and Kobolds need to work together to get the same effect.

[Chronos]

I think it depends on who's in charge. Kobolds value kobold lives, so when they're in charge of their own decisions, they go for unfair fights and do whatever it takes to survive. But they're the only race that values kobold lives, and they're easy to boss around, so when they find themselves working as minions for something else (which is often), they typically end up getting used as cannon fodder (which they go along with only because they're more afraid of the bosses than they are of the enemies they're swarming).

[ShadowImmor]

I think the main reason for net zero stats on a kobold is balance.

Pack tactics is an extremely effective ability, particularly for a rogue though it works well for most melee and ranged characters since the kobold gets advantage whenever there is an ally adjacent to the target. Hitting anything when part of a group and not in direct sunlight is about +3 to +5 easier for a kobold than anyone else. +3 to +5 is roughly the equivalent of increasing your attack stat by 6 to 10 points.

I've seen kobold monks, rogues and fighters in play and although they pretty much have to be dex based due to the stat modifiers they are all very effective.

The -2 to strength is mostly just for flavour since most folks would dump strength on a kobold anyway. The exception is if you are playing at a table that takes encumbrance seriously then you would likely need to boost the strength to carry gear and wear armour.


TBH, I don't mind so much about the strength penalty, but the "Grovel" option rubs me the wrong way, partially because it forces everyone to behave a certain way towards kobolds. If a kobold grovels, their allies get advantage to attack? A kobold grovelling is so distracting that people drop their guard, automatically, no save? AND Sunlight Sensitivity, with no superior senses to compensate (standard darkvision?) I mean, orcs don't even get sunlight sensitivity.

If my player is interested in them, I will probably drop Grovel and offer him free proficiency in thieves' tools, which goes along with their trap-maker reputation. I don't know about sunlight sensitivity, but, really, they're just poorly designed.


I have Kobold in my game, but he gave up the stat buffs to get Wings instead. He still has Grovel (which he never uses) and the -2 to Strength, and also Sunlight Sensitivity. He is actually the most lethal member of the party by quite a margin. (We have an Orc Fighter who wields a Great Axe, a Goliath Paladin and an Elven Sorcerer,) and the Kobold easily kills the majority of enemies and does the majority of the damage. He's a Rogue so he's getting Sneak Attack, which he gets pretty much all the time, as long as an ally is next to the enemy, which the Paladin or Fighter is usually. So despite the fact he only has 6 str (he dumped it then got a -2) and can barely carry anything he is highly, HIGHLY lethal.

You got to remember a Kobold Rogue, if an ally is adjacent, they get Pack Tactics, which even during the day negates the Sunlight Sensitivity, meaning he doesn't have disadvantage and, since an enemy of his target is within 5 feet, he gets sneak attack. So yes Kobolds are not good a Strength based things, but they can be lethal in other ways.

[Great Dragon]

So despite the fact he only has 6 str (he dumped it then got a -2) and can barely carry anything he is highly, HIGHLY lethal.

You got to remember a Kobold Rogue, if an ally is adjacent, they get Pack Tactics, which even during the day negates the Sunlight Sensitivity, meaning he doesn't have disadvantage and, since an enemy of his target is within 5 feet, he gets sneak attack. So yes Kobolds are not good a Strength based things, but they can be lethal in other ways.

Um, that was the gripe, that Kobolds were Only Good for Rogues and maybe Sorcerers
(staying within their Lore for most common Classes encountered),
and not for much of anything Str based.

So, for Crunch, the Kobold never gets above Str 16 at level one - where the Halfling can get 18.

Kobold Champion Fighter with a Long Sword for 1d10 (+Str) damage.

Kobold Devotion Paladin with Heavy Armor and Shield.

Kobold (Two Weaponed) Hunter Ranger.

Heck, even Goblins, Gnomes, and Halflings can do this at no penalty
- sure the Mt Dwarf, Half-Orc and Orc are better, but that's ok, they are also type-set into more likely to be certain Classes.

[Unoriginal]

I think it depends on who's in charge. Kobolds value kobold lives, so when they're in charge of their own decisions, they go for unfair fights and do whatever it takes to survive. But they're the only race that values kobold lives, and they're easy to boss around, so when they find themselves working as minions for something else (which is often), they typically end up getting used as cannon fodder (which they go along with only because they're more afraid of the bosses than they are of the enemies they're swarming).

Not quite, if you go by the 5e default lore.

A kobold values kobolds' lives, plural. Kobolds will always favor the unfair fight, and will always try to do what it takes to make kobolds survive.

But, culturally, a kobold is taught from birth that their personal life is less important than the survival of the whole, and if the survival of the whole is threatened, a kobold will sacrifice themselves, because that's the last way they can give the kobolds an advantage.

If a group of kobolds stop running and face you in a swarm, it's to help the others' escape.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm under the impression that their Sunlight Sensitivity is a biological flaw and not a culturally developed one. I would argue the same for Drow, although theirs would be caused by some form of adapting to the Underdark and less "they were just born with it" like it seems to be with Kobolds.

I'm reasonably sure that in the drow case, it's a race-wide curse. Or it used to be, anyway.

[Sigreid]

I have Kobold in my game, but he gave up the stat buffs to get Wings instead. He still has Grovel (which he never uses) and the -2 to Strength, and also Sunlight Sensitivity. He is actually the most lethal member of the party by quite a margin. (We have an Orc Fighter who wields a Great Axe, a Goliath Paladin and an Elven Sorcerer,) and the Kobold easily kills the majority of enemies and does the majority of the damage. He's a Rogue so he's getting Sneak Attack, which he gets pretty much all the time, as long as an ally is next to the enemy, which the Paladin or Fighter is usually. So despite the fact he only has 6 str (he dumped it then got a -2) and can barely carry anything he is highly, HIGHLY lethal.

You got to remember a Kobold Rogue, if an ally is adjacent, they get Pack Tactics, which even during the day negates the Sunlight Sensitivity, meaning he doesn't have disadvantage and, since an enemy of his target is within 5 feet, he gets sneak attack. So yes Kobolds are not good a Strength based things, but they can be lethal in other ways.

My problem with the penalty is not about kobolds being weak. It's about the inconsistency. If you've removed attribute penalty for races from the game and proudly explained that that was intentional, don't put them back in for 1 or 2 races just because.

[LibraryOgre]

We made characters and played a bit today. He was jazzed about grovel, so we kept it. *shrug*

[DivertedCircle]

Not sure it'll be useful for you if you're only using official sources but I recently worked on a homebrew take on kobolds, specifically for the Eberron setting. It can be found at drive.google.com/open?id=16AswzlGm6OUsr_PyR7l71lVVLcyN2z04 and I'd love feedback.

[Sigreid]

I may need to make a kobold conquest paladin "I am a DRAGON and you will kneel!"

[DivertedCircle]

I may need to make a kobold conquest paladin "I am a DRAGON and you will kneel!"

That's exactly why I made my homebrew! My party has adopted Meepo, the kobold dragon keeper from the Sunless Citadel, and since they need a tank I'll be building him as a Conquest Paladin DMPC. He's been inspired by the parties heroics and vows to never be afraid again, instead he'll make his enemies fear him!