Build Idea

[tstewt1921]

The build:

Knight 5/Anointed Knight 10/Something 5

I know I can also sub in Paladin instead of Knight, I'm wanting a shield/weapon wielder and I do want to make use of the Ancestral Relic to go into Anointed Knight, I'm open to any item being the Relic, and any other class, as long as it leads into Anointed Knight as I would tie it all into my backstory some how.

I haven't built this style of character before, my reasoning for going Knight is for the Challenge ability, I know I could also take the Goad feat or something to that extent for it. I want to be able to play the traditional tank from most RPG style games, I want to be able to keep the threat on me and be able to soak the damage while the rest of the party nukes it. I've also thought about Crusader with their ability to set aside damage to deal extra damage.

There are several possibilities for this, the build doesn't have to be highly optimized, I just want it to be useful.

Stats would fall as 18,16,14,14,12,10 (Any order I choose) regardless of race I would get the human bonus feat, humans get to put a +2/-2 into any stats they choose. Flaws are acceptable they would just need to make sense, so if a flaw is taken it will be added into the back story as for why I have it.

I'm trying to put as much info as I can because I'm usually very short in what I want so hopefully this is enough, if not I'll answer any questions, sorry for the long post.

Oh this is also 3.5, very little Pathfinder may be used, upon DM approval.

[Falontani]

I personally prefer Warforged Artificer 5 for the weapon familiar to add to the ancestral relic.

Choose an armblade for your weapon familiar (gets sentience and several boons) grab the Item Familiar feat from unearthed arcana (choose either your warforged body or your armblade again) and then get an attached shield component as your ancestral relic.

Good build path: Warforged Fighter 1 (gives you a d12 HD, extra warforged bonus feat) Warforged Artificer 6, Knight 1, Annointed Knight 10, Kensai 2. Grab Craft Construct and build yourself a Clockwork Steed from MM 4. Using warforged infusions you can heal it should it take damage, and its fairly cheap for a decent mount.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm not fond of builds that only use a small number of Knight levels, mostly because the Knight's abilities don't scale well if you don't advance very far and there are much better options if you are just dipping a few levels. Crusader would be my first preference, although Paladin can be good too. There is also no reason not to consider straight Fighter here.

[tstewt1921]

I'm not fond of builds that only use a small number of Knight levels, mostly because the Knight's abilities don't scale well if you don't advance very far and there are much better options if you are just dipping a few levels. Crusader would be my first preference, although Paladin can be good too. There is also no reason not to consider straight Fighter here.

With straight fighter it would be all about the feat selection, what would your feat selection be?

[tstewt1921]

I personally prefer Warforged Artificer 5 for the weapon familiar to add to the ancestral relic.

Choose an armblade for your weapon familiar (gets sentience and several boons) grab the Item Familiar feat from unearthed arcana (choose either your warforged body or your armblade again) and then get an attached shield component as your ancestral relic.

Good build path: Warforged Fighter 1 (gives you a d12 HD, extra warforged bonus feat) Warforged Artificer 6, Knight 1, Annointed Knight 10, Kensai 2. Grab Craft Construct and build yourself a Clockwork Steed from MM 4. Using warforged infusions you can heal it should it take damage, and its fairly cheap for a decent mount.

Artificer is a class that is somewhat banned at our table, however I love the idea especially with a clockwork mount! I've never really used the item familiar rules or done anything like that.

[Red Fel]

The build:

Knight 5/Anointed Knight 10/Something 5

I know I can also sub in Paladin instead of Knight, I'm wanting a shield/weapon wielder and I do want to make use of the Ancestral Relic to go into Anointed Knight, I'm open to any item being the Relic, and any other class, as long as it leads into Anointed Knight as I would tie it all into my backstory some how.

I haven't built this style of character before, my reasoning for going Knight is for the Challenge ability, I know I could also take the Goad feat or something to that extent for it. I want to be able to play the traditional tank from most RPG style games, I want to be able to keep the threat on me and be able to soak the damage while the rest of the party nukes it. I've also thought about Crusader with their ability to set aside damage to deal extra damage.

There are several possibilities for this, the build doesn't have to be highly optimized, I just want it to be useful.

Stats would fall as 18,16,14,14,12,10 (Any order I choose) regardless of race I would get the human bonus feat, humans get to put a +2/-2 into any stats they choose. Flaws are acceptable they would just need to make sense, so if a flaw is taken it will be added into the back story as for why I have it.

I'm trying to put as much info as I can because I'm usually very short in what I want so hopefully this is enough, if not I'll answer any questions, sorry for the long post.

Oh this is also 3.5, very little Pathfinder may be used, upon DM approval.

Well, I bring this up every time but it bears repeating: The aggro control mechanics of a video game don't really work in a TTRPG unless your DM makes them. That is to say, if you have an arrangement with your DM that your character will be an aggro tank, then he will, irrespective of mechanics; if you don't, then it's very hard to force NPCs to focus fire on your character.

The Knight, despite being built around the concept, is actually pretty bad at this. Let's look at the Test of Mettle ability specifically. Let's assume a mid-level Knight, say level 10. Let's further assume that he's not dumping Cha - using your stat spread, let's say he took 14 Cha, for a +2 modifier. This means that your Test of Mettle forces all enemies within 100 feet to make a DC 10+(10/2)+2=17 Will save or focus fire on you. For reference, at level 10, this is not a terribly hard save to make. If they make the save, the ability is wasted. If you do not have line of sight, the ability is wasted. If they are low-level or lack the requisite Int score, the ability is wasted. If they lack a language, the ability is wasted.

Even if the ability succeeds, it stinks. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the ability ends, so you can't just tank and let the party nuke the target. Moreover, other class features - such as Shield Ally - require you to be adjacent to an ally to use them. That's a problem, because Test of Mettle specifically permits enemies to use area attacks, meaning that you are actually endangering your allies by standing near them.

Lastly, the build as you offer it is even worse than that, because you only use five Knight levels. That means your Test of Mettle actually only requires a save of DC 14 - pathetically easy.

There are five aspects of tanking to consider when building a tank, and the Crusader, not the Knight, addresses all of them.
The best way to keep an enemy from damaging your squishies is to kill that enemy. Dead enemies deal no damage. This is the ultimate damage prevention.
The best mechanics are those which offer no save. The Test of Mettle is a perfect example - there are too many ways it can completely fail. What you want is something guaranteed to take effect.
Play keep-away when possible. If your squishies are over there, and you keep your enemies locked down over here, there's a lot less your enemies can do to your squishies.
But have a back-up plan. If you can't play keep-away, make sure you still have some other mechanical incentive that forces enemies to focus on you.
And most importantly, the best way to keep an enemy from damaging your squishies is to kill that enemy. So important that it bears repeating.
The Crusader does all of these things. It possesses strong damaging abilities that help make enemies dead. Its aggro control mechanics - which basically consist of triggering AoOs on any enemy who tries to pass you or attack your allies - are automatic. You can use certain stances and maneuvers to block a pass, keeping enemies inside of your zone of control and keeping them away from your allies, but if that fails you can use others to punish them for even looking at your allies.

Moreover, it scales well. Better than the Knight, in any event. For example, you can count 1/2 of your non-Crusader class levels towards your Initiator Level, which governs what maneuvers you can take. Which means you can take some levels of Crusader, switch to Anointed Knight, then back to Crusader, and actually benefit from it. It also has added utility - a number of the Crusader's maneuvers can benefit the party, such as offering spot-healing when you attack an enemy, basically the most efficient source of healing in the game.

Bottom line, I get people who want to take Knight for fluff purposes. I can see that. But if you want to take it to "tank," you're chasing the wrong goal. Tanking doesn't work the way it does in video games, but the closest thing is the Crusader, not the Knight. There are Crusader handbooks out there, I'd encourage you to read one.

[tstewt1921]

Bottom line, I get people who want to take Knight for fluff purposes. I can see that. But if you want to take it to "tank," you're chasing the wrong goal. Tanking doesn't work the way it does in video games, but the closest thing is the Crusader, not the Knight. There are Crusader handbooks out there, I'd encourage you to read one.


Everything you said makes a ton of sense! Would say stay straight Crusader or maybe go into a ToB prestige class, or any other prestige class for that matter?

[BowStreetRunner]

With straight fighter it would be all about the feat selection, what would your feat selection be?Straight Fighter wouldn't be my first choice, but if you did build around it the feat selection would depend heavily upon your weapon selection. It's still more useful than a few levels in knight. Maybe pick up Imperious Command and focus on Intimidate as well.


Everything you said makes a ton of sense! Would say stay straight Crusader or maybe go into a ToB prestige class, or any other prestige class for that matter?Crusader would be my first choice, and it's effective both as a straight class as well as a dip class. If you dip any ToB class, your other class levels all still grant you 1/2 initiator level.

The best tank I've ever encountered in 3.5 (which isn't actually saying much because tanking isn't all that great in this system) was a Fighter/Crusader who combined maneuvers/stances that made it difficult for attackers to ignore them, as well as wielding a spiked chain to lock down the area around them. Maneuvers included things like Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Thicket of Blades, Entangling Blade. Feats included things like Mage Slayer, Defensive Sweep, Stand Still, Improved Trip. They also had some of the Weapon Focus/Specialization/Mastery chain of feats to amp up attack and damage. Overall, they were actually fairly effective in keeping the attackers busy while the casters & ranged attackers behind them did some serious damage.

[Red Fel]

Everything you said makes a ton of sense! Would say stay straight Crusader or maybe go into a ToB prestige class, or any other prestige class for that matter?


Crusader would be my first choice, and it's effective both as a straight class as well as a dip class. If you dip any ToB class, your other class levels all still grant you 1/2 initiator level.

The best tank I've ever encountered in 3.5 (which isn't actually saying much because tanking isn't all that great in this system) was a Fighter/Crusader who combined maneuvers/stances that made it difficult for attackers to ignore them, as well as wielding a spiked chain to lock down the area around them. Maneuvers included things like Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Thicket of Blades, Entangling Blade. Feats included things like Mage Slayer, Defensive Sweep, Stand Still, Improved Trip. They also had some of the Weapon Focus/Specialization/Mastery chain of feats to amp up attack and damage. Overall, they were actually fairly effective in keeping the attackers busy while the casters & ranged attackers behind them did some serious damage.

This. Straight Crusader is an excellent choice, or Crusader/Fighter, switching in as needed for bonus feats. Honestly, Crusader is a solid enough class that you don't need a PrC if you don't want one, and you can take the Ancestral Relic feat whether you go Anointed Knight or not, your call.

I mean, depending on your system mastery and comfort playing around with material, there's a lot you could do. Heck, you could build a Crusader/Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster and grab a weapon with a daze effect for added lockdown potential, but that's a heck of a lot of work. Straight Crusader 20 gets you basically everything you need in one convenient package, maybe with some Fighter dips for bonus feats, and you're set. After that, just focus on the details - a spiked chain is a good weapon for both reach and adjacent threats, the right maneuver selection to maximize battlefield control, and some feats to optimize your use of AoOs. Crusader gets you a good 90% of it, easy.

[Mike Miller]

Everything I would say has been said, so I just want to agree that Crusader is the way to go. I had a straight crusader up to about level 15 that was fun and useful. It is my favorite ToB class and does everything the above posters said.

[CMagnum]

If you are going crusader another great starting point is to go Wolf totem barbarian 2 for free improved trip without needing the useless combat expertise /13 intelligence. You also get rage, high hit points as a bonus! Something to consider depending on the flavour you want.

[Rebel7284]

In my opinion, the best tank in the game is a Ruby Knight Vindicator. It can do everything that a straight Crusader can do but also gets divine spells for backup (Share Pain, Close Wounds) and eventually extra swift actions!

[tstewt1921]

If you are going crusader another great starting point is to go Wolf totem barbarian 2 for free improved trip without needing the useless combat expertise /13 intelligence. You also get rage, high hit points as a bonus! Something to consider depending on the flavour you want.

Our DM is really picky about Multi-Class justification, it would be going from a untrained type martial class to a highly trained martial class I'm not sure if I could justify that with backstory.

[tstewt1921]

I mean, depending on your system mastery and comfort playing around with material, there's a lot you could do. Heck, you could build a Crusader/Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster and grab a weapon with a daze effect for added lockdown potential, but that's a heck of a lot of work. Straight Crusader 20 gets you basically everything you need in one convenient package, maybe with some Fighter dips for bonus feats, and you're set. After that, just focus on the details - a spiked chain is a good weapon for both reach and adjacent threats, the right maneuver selection to maximize battlefield control, and some feats to optimize your use of AoOs. Crusader gets you a good 90% of it, easy.


What weapons have a daze effect? I was also going to go with a reach weapon as well, so if there is a reach daze weapon that would be amazing.

[Red Fel]

What weapons have a daze effect? I was also going to go with a reach weapon as well, so if there is a reach daze weapon that would be amazing.

That's a class feature of the Ironsoul Forgemaster PrC. It's a pretty heavy investment - you need Meldshaper class levels plus nine levels of the PrC - but at IF level 9, you gain the Weapon Bond class feature, which, among other things, allows your weapon to daze living enemies on hit. It's a pretty potent debuff, but like I said, heavy investment.

[Doctor Awkward]

Another aside Red Fel didn't already cover in regards to tanking in tabletop D&D: the best way to be a tank is to make yourself a more appealing target than your allies.

There are a number of ways to accomplish this: either by presenting a more immediate threat (standing in the front), being easier to hit (such as having a lower AC and no miss chance), or by punishing enemies for trying to ignore you.

Again though, the crusader does all of these things. It has many maneuvers to make itself a more attractive target, and its primary class feature, Furious Counterstrike, is fueled by taking damage.