A bad idea for a Monk Archetype

[FrancisBean]

This is all very much theoretical, not part of a real game. Please view it through that lens. No actual player characters will be harmed in the discussion of these atrocities.

I've always been a little dissatisfied with the flavor of the Monk in all editions. Flavor-wise, what I'd like most would be to introduce a Monk archetype which gets the following as the 3rd level Archetype ability:


Your unarmed attacks count as melee weapon attacks for all rules which refer to weapon attacks.

Say, swap that in place of the Open Hand 3rd and keep the other abilities. It only took a few minutes of multiclass spitballing to realize that the rules interactions would be so unbalanced that I wouldn't throw that in a game unless I got to sit on the sidelines with popcorn. Knowing this happy crew, I couldn't resist tossing it out here just to hear some of the horrific options I missed. The BattleMonk and the Morgue (Monk/Rogue) are both pretty obvious, but I'm morbidly curious about the other ridiculousness. ("Weapon attack" is distinct from "weapon," so I'd think your hands/feet couldn't be your EK bonded weapon, nor for Bladelocks. But I didn't actually triple-check the precise wording from the books here....)

Is it as game-breaking as I'm thinking, or am I just overly concerned about the myriad rules interactions?

[Man_Over_Game]

This is all very much theoretical, not part of a real game. Please view it through that lens. No actual player characters will be harmed in the discussion of these atrocities.

I've always been a little dissatisfied with the flavor of the Monk in all editions. Flavor-wise, what I'd like most would be to introduce a Monk archetype which gets the following as the 3rd level Archetype ability:


Your unarmed attacks count as melee weapon attacks for all rules which refer to weapon attacks.

Say, swap that in place of the Open Hand 3rd and keep the other abilities. It only took a few minutes of multiclass spitballing to realize that the rules interactions would be so unbalanced that I wouldn't throw that in a game unless I got to sit on the sidelines with popcorn. Knowing this happy crew, I couldn't resist tossing it out here just to hear some of the horrific options I missed. The BattleMonk and the Morgue (Monk/Rogue) are both pretty obvious, but I'm morbidly curious about the other ridiculousness. ("Weapon attack" is distinct from "weapon," so I'd think your hands/feet couldn't be your EK bonded weapon, nor for Bladelocks. But I didn't actually triple-check the precise wording from the books here....)

Is it as game-breaking as I'm thinking, or am I just overly concerned about the myriad rules interactions?

Erm, an Unarmed Strike is always a Melee Weapon Attack, despite not using a weapon. Melee Weapon Attack might as well mean Striking Physical Attack, which an Unarmed Strike always is.

I think the wording you'd want to use is:

You can transmute a limb into a melee weapon. These weapons are considered being Finesse, and deal 1d8 damage. The damage type is your choice of Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing. Any time you could make an Unarmed Strike, you can attack with your transmuted limb.

Then add some other abilities that make sense for someone that turns their body into a literal weapon (can cover entire body in metal, halving speed for resistance to Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing makes a lot of sense).

As to what this breaks? I guess you can add the Dueling fighting style, and you can use Rogue sneak attacks. While a lot of these are kinda borked in how they work (does Dueling work if you have two fist weapons? Can you only transmute one hand and still use Dueling AND your Bonus Action attack?), but mostly it'd be just a bunch of number bonuses for...a whole lotta nothin'. You deal damage as a Monk, and now you...just deal more damage? It wouldn't be fun, nor would it inspire creativity. It'd just allow people to punch things without thinking, and there are plenty of options to do that already.

[Rusvul]

A "weapon attack" is defined in contrast to a "spell attack." A monk's unarmed strike is already a melee weapon attack.

The balance is just fine. Monk multi classes reasonably well with Fighter and Rogue, but there's nothing broken about using Martial Arts with, say, superiority dice.

[CTurbo]

Can you use Booming Blade with your fists?

[Man_Over_Game]

Can you use Booming Blade with your fists?

Technically, no. With what OP is trying to do, yes.

[FrancisBean]

Erm, an Unarmed Strike is always a Melee Weapon Attack, despite not using a weapon. Melee Weapon Attack might as well mean Striking Physical Attack, which an Unarmed Strike always is.

Hrm. I thought they were ineligible for, E.g., Sneak Attack, or for Battlemaster Maneuvers. I'm AFB, so I'm not able to triple-check the wording until tonight.


I think the wording you'd want to use is:

Your Unarmed Strikes are considered a melee weapon through transmuting the flesh around your limbs (make them some kind of transmutation monk that transforms their own body or something). These weapons are considered being Finesse, and deal 1d8 damage. The type is your choice of Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing.

Then add some other abilities that make sense for someone that turns their body into a literal weapon (can cover entire body in metal, halving speed for resistance to Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing makes a lot of sense).

I do like that version up until the the notion of changing one's body. I'm actually after the flavor of a Monk who can, e.g., deliver piercing damage through sheer skill by a thrust from a stiffened finger, slashing from an open hand, or bludgeoning from a fist. Sort of a D&D variation on the Remo Williams fiction, but with the option to multiclass for unarmed sneak attack et al.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hrm. I thought they were ineligible for, E.g., Sneak Attack, or for Battlemaster Maneuvers. I'm AFB, so I'm not able to triple-check the wording until tonight.


They're eligible for Battlemaster Maneuvers or anything that explicitly mentions the term "Weapon Attack".

They're ineligible for Rogue Sneak Attack or Booming Blade, or anything that explicitly mentions the term "A Weapon".

An Unarmed Attack uses a Fist. A Fist is not a Weapon, but an Unarmed Attack is a Weapon Attack.

Similarly, a Sun Soul Monk's Radiant Bolt is a Ranged Spell Attack, despite not actually being related to spells. The term "Spell Attack" really just means "Energy Attack". Similarly, "Weapon Attack" just means "Physical Attack".

[FrancisBean]

Being AFB at the moment, and having not studied these rules in detail, is somebody willing to explain what can be done with, E.G., a pair of daggers, which can't be done with a pair of fists? Feel free to explain it to me as if I were a 4-year-old ... golden retriever. It's obvious that I'm missing a bunch of the detailed rules on this one, which I thought I knew.

[Misterwhisper]

They're eligible for Battlemaster Maneuvers or anything that explicitly mentions the term "Weapon Attack".

They're ineligible for Rogue Sneak Attack or Booming Blade, or anything that explicitly mentions the term "A Weapon".

An Unarmed Attack uses a Fist. A Fist is not a Weapon, but an Unarmed Attack is a Weapon Attack.

Similarly, a Sun Soul Monk's Radiant Bolt is a Ranged Spell Attack, despite not actually being related to spells. The term "Spell Attack" really just means "Energy Attack". Similarly, "Weapon Attack" just means "Physical Attack".

Actually is is more of an issue of that an unarmed attack is not finesse even though you can use dex for hit and damage.

[Chronos]

An unarmed strike is on the weapon table, so it's a weapon. I can't see any reason you couldn't use it with Booming Blade. You still can't use it with Sneak Attack, since Sneak Attack requires a finesse or ranged weapon, and an unarmed strike is neither. Monks can make unarmed strikes using Dexterity instead of Strength, but that's a monk-specific ability, and still doesn't make them finesse for a monk (the same for, e.g., a quarterstaff).

[Misterwhisper]

You would be better off making an unarmed rogue subclass than a monk subclass that can call them weapons.

[Millstone85]

An unarmed strike is on the weapon table, so it's a weapon.Unarmed strikes have long been errata'd out of the weapon table.

[Man_Over_Game]

Being AFB at the moment, and having not studied these rules in detail, is somebody willing to explain what can be done with, E.G., a pair of daggers, which can't be done with a pair of fists? Feel free to explain it to me as if I were a 4-year-old ... golden retriever. It's obvious that I'm missing a bunch of the detailed rules on this one, which I thought I knew.

With fists:

Can make Melee Weapon Attacks
Can make Opportunity Attacks
Can use Paladin's Divine Smite
Can use Battlemaster Maneuvers
Can use Tavern Brawler




With Daggers:

Can make Melee Weapon Attacks
Can make Opportunity Attacks
Can use Paladin's Divine Smite
Can use Battlemaster Maneuvers
Can use Rogue's Sneak Attack
Can be used for Two Weapon Fighting
Can be used for Booming Blade
Can be targeted with Magic Weapon/Elemental Weapon

[Millstone85]

While were are on important subtleties, note that an unarmed strike doesn't necessarily involve a fist.

Melee Attacks (p. 195). The third paragraph now reads, “Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.”

[PhoenixPhyre]

The term "Spell Attack" really just means "Energy Attack". Similarly, "Weapon Attack" just means "Physical Attack".

To be a bit more precise (because I'm feeling pedantic here):

Weapon attack === "action that is resolved with an attack roll, where the modifier added to the d20 is either Strength or Dexterity." This could (in principle) deal any kind of damage, energy or not. Ranged weapon attacks default to DEX, while melee weapon attacks default to STR. The thrown property allows an exception to the first category (ranged weapon attacks), while the finesse property allows an exception to the second category.

Neither one specifies that you must use a weapon to make one. Most monster attacks are melee weapon attacks, even if no weapons are involved. Things that care are called out with phrasing such as "attack with a [X,Y,Z] weapon", such as the rogue's "attack with a finesse weapon" specifier for Sneak Attack.

Spell attack === "action that is resolved with an attack roll, where the modifier added to the d20 is one of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as specified by the ability or feature that grants this option." Not all spell attacks are spells--the Deathlock Wight makes ranged spell attacks with its Grave-bolt ability, which is like Eldritch Blast but isn't the same. Same with a bunch of other features, such as the Sun Bolts you mentioned.

[Chronos]

Weapon attacks can certainly deal "energy" damage, such as a Sun Sword, which does radiant damage. And a torch used as an improvised weapon probably deals fire damage (the DM decides what damage type is most appropriate for an improvised weapon).

And spell attacks can certainly deal "physical" damage, such as Thorn Whip, which does piercing.

But it's also not quite as simple as what stat is used: Hexblades and anyone with Shillelagh can make weapon attacks using their spellcasting ability, instead of Str or Dex. And the genasi race gets a few spells with Constitution as their spellcasting stat, and (though I don't think it exists currently) one could in principle have spellcasting with Str or Dex as the casting stat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Weapon attacks can certainly deal "energy" damage, such as a Sun Sword, which does radiant damage. And a torch used as an improvised weapon probably deals fire damage (the DM decides what damage type is most appropriate for an improvised weapon).

And spell attacks can certainly deal "physical" damage, such as Thorn Whip, which does piercing.

But it's also not quite as simple as what stat is used: Hexblades and anyone with Shillelagh can make weapon attacks using their spellcasting ability, instead of Str or Dex. And the genasi race gets a few spells with Constitution as their spellcasting stat, and (though I don't think it exists currently) one could in principle have spellcasting with Str or Dex as the casting stat.

And those are all exceptions, just like finesse or thrown.