What is XP, from the perspective of the character?

[Stryyke]

I've been considering starting some item crafting, and there is an XP cost to it. When gaining XP, it's easy to imagine how it represents experience gained in the field. But when spending it, you come face to face with a dilemma. Does a person lose memory of the experience? Certainly they can still remember the events happening, so what do they actually lose?

[StevenC21]

XP equals learning.

They expended their learning to discover how to craft that item, rather than learn new skills.

[Mordaedil]

I've been considering starting some item crafting, and there is an XP cost to it. When gaining XP, it's easy to imagine how it represents experience gained in the field. But when spending it, you come face to face with a dilemma. Does a person lose memory of the experience? Certainly they can still remember the events happening, so what do they actually lose?
When character expend experience, it mostly means they are not maintaining their edge like if they chose not to spend it on crafting. When you make a scroll of fireball, you spend some time not studying the next level of spells, when you make a magical longsword, you spend time not studying the next level of spells. At all other times, it is assumed your character is constantly pushing himself forward, always studying, always honing himself or maintaining his status.

From the viewpoint of the character, it's that expending XP is the investment of their resources into something physical.

[Stryyke]

When character expend experience, it mostly means they are not maintaining their edge like if they chose not to spend it on crafting. When you make a scroll of fireball, you spend some time not studying the next level of spells, when you make a magical longsword, you spend time not studying the next level of spells. At all other times, it is assumed your character is constantly pushing himself forward, always studying, always honing himself or maintaining his status.

From the viewpoint of the character, it's that expending XP is the investment of their resources into something physical.

But wouldn't that mean any time spent sleeping, or in any activity that is not directly related to furthering their skills would cause an XP loss? If my character went to a grassy field and took a day off, should they then lose experience?

[Andreaz]

But wouldn't that mean any time spent sleeping, or in any activity that is not directly related to furthering their skills would cause an XP loss? If my character went to a grassy field and took a day off, should they then lose experience?

And that's one of the reasons pathfinder did away with xp as a resource. It marks your progression in power from a player perspective, and nothing else...

[magic9mushroom]

Disclaimer: This is not official AFAIK, this is how I make sense of it.

XP is your soul/life force. You gain it from adventures because they exercise your soul, helping it to grow. You lose it from stuff that damages your soul, like dying and getting yanked back to life, or negative energy suppressing your essence (level drain). You lose it from making items because you're literally ripping out part of your soul to power the item, and from having a familiar die because it's linked to your soul and part of your soul dies with it.

[hamishspence]

Disclaimer: This is not official AFAIK, this is how I make sense of it.

XP is your soul/life force. You gain it from adventures because they exercise your soul, helping it to grow. You lose it from stuff that damages your soul, like dying and getting yanked back to life, or negative energy suppressing your essence (level drain). You lose it from making items because you're literally ripping out part of your soul to power the item, and from having a familiar die because it's linked to your soul and part of your soul dies with it.

This actually does kind of fit with some of the early D&D novels. In The Crystal Shard when Bruenor is creating Aegis-Fang - he can feel some "life-force" draining from him during the ritual to imbue it with magic - and passes out.

[Selion]

Addition to cures:
"Why that potion that before could heal me totally now only works on little scratches? I need something more powerful"

[hamishspence]

"Why that potion that before could heal me totally now only works on little scratches? I need something more powerful"



In the Tortall Universe books, characters who have been healed many times over the years, become resistant to healing - so the same healing spells are less effective.

"They are higher-level now, so the amount of hit points healed is a much smaller proportion of their total hit points" makes for an interesting out-of-universe justification for this.

[Mordaedil]

But wouldn't that mean any time spent sleeping, or in any activity that is not directly related to furthering their skills would cause an XP loss? If my character went to a grassy field and took a day off, should they then lose experience?

Everybody sleeps Stryyke. And if you did a roleplaying thing where you decided to take a vacation, sure you can argue with your DM that you can spend XP vacationing.

You will, right?

[Crake]

Disclaimer: This is not official AFAIK, this is how I make sense of it.

XP is your soul/life force. You gain it from adventures because they exercise your soul, helping it to grow. You lose it from stuff that damages your soul, like dying and getting yanked back to life, or negative energy suppressing your essence (level drain). You lose it from making items because you're literally ripping out part of your soul to power the item, and from having a familiar die because it's linked to your soul and part of your soul dies with it.

This is about how I run and fluff it at my table as well. Its about the only description that best matches the various methods of losing xp. Gaining xp is your soul becomes stronger as you grow in character, almost like a muscle.

[Hackulator]

Addition to cures:
"Why that potion that before could heal me totally now only works on little scratches? I need something more powerful"

D&D HP damage is not actually getting stabbed, it's like combat fatigue. It's like when you see two dudes in a movie sword fighting, they are not constantly running each other through over and over til one falls down. The fewer HP you have, the closer you are to that getting run through moment.

[Selion]

D&D HP damage is not actually getting stabbed, it's like combat fatigue. It's like when you see two dudes in a movie sword fighting, they are not constantly running each other through over and over til one falls down. The fewer HP you have, the closer you are to that getting run through moment.

Yep, i know, but it's useless to force realistic interpretations in such a system.
A still 10 level naked fighter is harder to kill with arrows than a 1 level naked fighter, experience shouldn't help him in such a situation, it's easier to just state that with a few levels PC just become super-beings

[Mars Ultor]

Yep, i know, but it's useless to force realistic interpretations in such a system.
A still 10 level naked fighter is harder to kill with arrows than a 1 level naked fighter, experience shouldn't help him in such a situation, it's easier to just state that with a few levels PC just become super-beings

While Hit points aren't the best system, and they stop making sense after a while, from a general perspective they work. If I get into the ring with a boxer he could quite possibly kill me with one punch, yet if I learn to box I'm eventually going to be able to survive after getting hit by a pro boxer. To some degree that's represented by the increase in HP.

Presumably most humans are in the same range of actual HP, but with training you can learn to absorb damage and keep fighting long after untrained individuals would have died.

[Hackulator]

Yep, i know, but it's useless to force realistic interpretations in such a system.
A still 10 level naked fighter is harder to kill with arrows than a 1 level naked fighter, experience shouldn't help him in such a situation, it's easier to just state that with a few levels PC just become super-beings

Experience with how to move and dodge and how to present less vital parts of your body as a target would make a difference.

[Selion]

While Hit points aren't the best system, and they stop making sense after a while, from a general perspective they work. If I get into the ring with a boxer he could quite possibly kill me with one punch, yet if I learn to box I'm eventually going to be able to survive after getting hit by a pro boxer. To some degree that's represented by the increase in HP.

Presumably most humans are in the same range of actual HP, but with training you can learn to absorb damage and keep fighting long after untrained individuals would have died.

The usual genre separation in function of level helps in this:
1-5 Gritty fantasy
6-10 heroic fantasy
11-15 wuxia
16-20 superheroes

At level 1-5 a realistic interpretation could work, after that you are basically playing with captain america, spiderman and thor (in this order)

[Bohandas]

I've been considering starting some item crafting, and there is an XP cost to it. When gaining XP, it's easy to imagine how it represents experience gained in the field. But when spending it, you come face to face with a dilemma. Does a person lose memory of the experience? Certainly they can still remember the events happening, so what do they actually lose?

As far as I can tell it's a purely gamist abstraction that represents nothing. That's why fighting makes you better at the arcane arts and actually practicing them makes you worse at them.


The usual genre separation in function of level helps in this:
1-5 Gritty fantasy
6-10 heroic fantasy
11-15 wuxia
16-20 superheroes

At level 1-5 a realistic interpretation could work, after that you are basically playing with captain america, spiderman and thor (in this order)

You actually reach the point of being low grade supers pretty early on. A level 3 barbarian is probably more than a match for Mr.Furious and a level 7 barbarian is probably more than a match for The Horde/Kevin Wendell Crumb


D&D HP damage is not actually getting stabbed, it's like combat fatigue. It's like when you see two dudes in a movie sword fighting, they are not constantly running each other through over and over til one falls down. The fewer HP you have, the closer you are to that getting run through moment.

What about when somebody wades through lava?

[hamishspence]

Might depend on how minmaxed such a character is - but I could see a level 3 barbarian using Rage, being close to World's Strongest Man levels.

At level 4, such a barbarian would be Str 23 when Raging (18 base, +1 Str at level 4, +4 from Rage) and able to lift 600 pounds over their head.

For comparison, a real weightlifter has lifted 586 lb.

[JoshuaZ]

Might depend on how minmaxed such a character is - but I could see a level 3 barbarian using Rage, being close to World's Strongest Man levels.

At level 4, such a barbarian would be Str 23 when Raging (18 base, +1 Str at level 4, +4 from Rage) and able to lift 600 pounds over their head.

For comparison, a real weightlifter has lifted 586 lb.

This amounts to the old Aragorn was a level 5 character sort of argument and is part of the justification for E6 and similar things.

[Hackulator]

What about when somebody wades through lava?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bumUw0lNOz0

[Doug Lampert]

What about when somebody wades through lava?

Last time I looked, I could find two examples of known cases of someone falling onto lava, both got up and walked out. Must have been superhuman, I'm told you can see the somewhat singed coat one of them was wearing at the time at one of the parks in Hawaii.

People regularly walk on "molten" lava, you need heavy boots [edited to add: see the link the poster above provided]. Why should it be more lethal in D&D land?!

Lava in movies is WATER with special effects applied to make it look red and glowing. Real lava does not act like that. You do not and can not "wade" in it.

HP include luck and divine favor and a bunch of other stuff, and yet people who argue that they are unrealistic CONSISTENTLY pick situations that are survivable for level 1 NPCs (AKA us) as their examples of "how could anyone possibly survive that".

[hamishspence]

This amounts to the old Aragorn was a level 5 character sort of argument and is part of the justification for E6 and similar things.

While some things might be achievable at low level via minmaxing, others might not. Endurance running, for example, probably requires a lot of speed boosters (feats, traits, classes that get higher base speed, etc) for the "hustle speed" to match marathon records.

[Crake]

Yep, i know, but it's useless to force realistic interpretations in such a system.
A still 10 level naked fighter is harder to kill with arrows than a 1 level naked fighter, experience shouldn't help him in such a situation, it's easier to just state that with a few levels PC just become super-beings

This is why I like wounds/vitality so much better than HP. Vitality is directly represented as "near misses" and "light grazes" while wounds represent "direct hits".

[Hackulator]

While some things might be achievable at low level via minmaxing, others might not. Endurance running, for example, probably requires a lot of speed boosters (feats, traits, classes that get higher base speed, etc) for the "hustle speed" to match marathon records.

Human Level 1 Barbarian Level 3 Monk with the regional feat Fleet of Foot (Player's Guide to Faerun), The Dash Feat and the Quick Trait comes out to a land speed of 75, which when hustling per the rules would be about 15 miles an hour. You could easily hustle for 2 hours, which would allow you to CRUSH the world record.

[hamishspence]

Barbarians are "any nonlawful" whereas monks must be lawful. Presumably this character would be an ex-monk, retaining all their monk abilities but no longer able to take monk levels.

I would guess that a "closer in capabilities to the real-life people" character would need to be higher level. After all, real-life marathon runners don't have monk-like powers or barbarian-like powers.

How high-level would a pure Expert (or Commoner, or something similar) character need to be to achieve the same 75 ft (or 70 ft, if you're wanting to match a record rather than crush it) be?

[Hackulator]

Barbarians are "any nonlawful" whereas monks must be lawful. Presumably this character would be an ex-monk, retaining all their monk abilities but no longer able to take monk levels.

I would guess that a "closer in capabilities to the real-life people" character would need to be higher level. After all, real-life marathon runners don't have monk-like powers or barbarian-like powers.

How high-level would a pure Expert (or Commoner, or something similar) character need to be to achieve the same 75 ft (or 70 ft, if you're wanting to match a record rather than crush it) be?

Matching the record would be 65 feet. I would say it's reasonable that a world class marathon runner is some "runner" class who gets like, nothing from barbarian except fast movement, which would allow the necessary 65 feet at level 1, actually.

You're also sort of moving the goalposts as the original question was about characters doing long distance running at low levels, which is clearly doable.

[hamishspence]

Low level characters can push the boundaries of "greatest regular human" stuff, agreed.

I could see certain folk heroes needing to be higher level though. With a story revolving around such folk heroes still being "heroic fantasy".

[Manyasone]

Easy, Souls or Blood echoes.
Quite valid, actually, since you also use those to buy, well, everything...
It makes more sense however if you consider "xp" as a tangible thing

[Segev]

An interpretation where you're literally imbuing your experiences into the item would make for some interesting worldbuilding. You're not losing all of your memories of something, but the details, some of the sharpness and color, the lessons learned from it...those are dulled. You can't incorporate them into your own skills, talents, and know-how as well anymore.

Level-drain now also has a more definite sense to it: your more recent activities become muddier. You remember in general what you did and saw, but it's harder to connect to anything. It's like you'd gone through it drunk, or stoned, or otherwise impaired, and so now decisions you made that you might otherwise have hindsight on, you simply don't understand as well any longer. You actually have forgotten some information (usually represented by skill ranks) and how to do some things, and that spell that made sense to you before you were whammied now doesn't any longer, as if it's on the tip of your tongue, but you've lost the epiphany that made it "click."

Not only, now, can you quest for exotic materials important to the items you make, but you can quest for specific experiences with which to flavor them. Items you gain from your adventures may be enchanted more easily to suit, based on the experiences you had when getting them that you use to imbue said item with magic.




As to that cure light wounds potion that no longer heals you as much: it does! If you're down to 1 or 0 or even negative hp, it still will close up those lethal wounds! But, your capacity for vigor and vim is much higher, so if you're already largely uninjured, not only will it fix the minor scratches and bruises from close shaves, but it will also re-energize you, making you fresher and better able to self-defend. To turn those possibly-lethal blows you couldn't dodge entirely into minor scrapes and bruises.

In this interpretation, a guy at 10 hp out of 100 is not significantly more wounded than a guy at 10 hp out of 10. He may have some bruises or superficial marks, but he's not got anything obviously lethal, and isn't about to lose an arm that's hanging on by a tendon. It's just taken a lot of fighting to get him worn down to the point that he's as easy to nail with a lethal blow as the guy with 10 hp out of 10 is when that latter guy is as fresh as a daisy.

It's that last hp, the important one that keeps you above 0, which determines lethal blows. (Barring things like massive damage, death effects, etc.)

[Jon_Dahl]

Disclaimer: This is not official AFAIK, this is how I make sense of it.

XP is your soul/life force. You gain it from adventures because they exercise your soul, helping it to grow. You lose it from stuff that damages your soul, like dying and getting yanked back to life, or negative energy suppressing your essence (level drain). You lose it from making items because you're literally ripping out part of your soul to power the item, and from having a familiar die because it's linked to your soul and part of your soul dies with it.

I like this and I wholeheartedly support your view on this.

[Selion]

Not only, now, can you quest for exotic materials important to the items you make, but you can quest for specific experiences with which to flavor them. Items you gain from your adventures may be enchanted more easily to suit, based on the experiences you had when getting them that you use to imbue said item with magic.


I like this concept, it's exactly what
Voldemort did to create horcruxes, he had experiences that literally tore his soul apart in order to create fragments of his being

[Hackulator]

I like this concept, it's exactly what
Voldemort did to create horcruxes, he had experiences that literally tore his soul apart in order to create fragments of his being

Dude anyone who gets mad about Harry Potter spoilers at this point needs to get kicked lol.

[Bohandas]

Last time I looked, I could find two examples of known cases of someone falling onto lava, both got up and walked out. Must have been superhuman, I'm told you can see the somewhat singed coat one of them was wearing at the time at one of the parks in Hawaii.

People regularly walk on "molten" lava, you need heavy boots [edited to add: see the link the poster above provided]. Why should it be more lethal in D&D land?!

Lava in movies is WATER with special effects applied to make it look red and glowing. Real lava does not act like that. You do not and can not "wade" in it.

HP include luck and divine favor and a bunch of other stuff, and yet people who argue that they are unrealistic CONSISTENTLY pick situations that are survivable for level 1 NPCs (AKA us) as their examples of "how could anyone possibly survive that".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq7DDk8eLs8


I like this concept, it's exactly what
Voldemort did to create horcruxes, he had experiences that literally tore his soul apart in order to create fragments of his being

IIRC it's also how the One Ring was created in LotR

[Selion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq7DDk8eLs8



IIRC it's also how the One Ring was created in LotR

Are you saying that the thing i loved the most about harry potter saga was already in LotR? :D
I read Lord of the Rings years ago and i don't remember this thing, is it written in the Silmarillion, which i haven't read?

[hamishspence]

Are you saying that the thing i loved the most about harry potter saga was already in LotR? :D
I read Lord of the Rings years ago and i don't remember this thing, is it written in the Silmarillion, which i haven't read?

He put some of his "strength" and "will" into it - arguably synonymous with a piece of his soul:

[The Silmarillion]


"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."


And from Fellowship of the Ring:

'So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.'

[Selion]

He put some of his "strength" and "will" into it - arguably synonymous with a piece of his soul:

[The Silmarillion]


"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them."


And from Fellowship of the Ring:

'So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.'

Ah, ok, this i know, the concept in harry potter is a little different:
Voldemort had to do acts of depravity, it's not just that he passed his power in the horcruxes, his soul had to be fragmented before because of his inhuman experiences, so that he could put its splitted pieces in the horcruxes.

[magic9mushroom]

Ah, ok, this i know, the concept in harry potter is a little different:
Voldemort had to do acts of depravity, it's not just that he passed his power in the horcruxes, his soul had to be fragmented before because of his inhuman experiences, so that he could put its splitted pieces in the horcruxes.

Yeah, that's lichdom (which D&D still did before Rowling*). If you check Dragon #26 (yes, twenty-six; AD&D 1e, back in '79), the potion for making yourself a lich includes the blood of two dead babies and the heart of a virgin, who all have to be killed in specific ways.

*The idea of something along the lines of a lich goes back much further; Koschei the Deathless is from Slavic folklore and clearly fits the mould. The "eat this baby" requirement accomplishes much the same thing as Horcruxes' murder requirement - designating the effect as "evil-only", because immortality is cool and sour grapes.

[Stryyke]

Thanks for all the imput. I'm in an RP heavy group, and I'm trying to figure out how a character would experience losing XP for making items. Why would he, for instance, be able to cast a spell one day, but not the next (if the XP drain brought him down a level). There more than enough here to help me work out how to RP it. Thanks.

[Segev]

Thanks for all the imput. I'm in an RP heavy group, and I'm trying to figure out how a character would experience losing XP for making items. Why would he, for instance, be able to cast a spell one day, but not the next (if the XP drain brought him down a level). There more than enough here to help me work out how to RP it. Thanks.

Barring more special rules, you're not actually allowed, in general, to expend XP on item-crafting or spellcasting (or anything else voluntary) that would lower you below your current level. You are, in fact, allowed to delay leveling up until your XP would be sufficient to level up twice, if you want, "stockpiling" more than 2x the XP you need to level up. (When your XP reaches that cap, you MUST level up at least once, so you're once again not holding XP sufficient to level you twice. You CAN level twice, if you have the XP for it.)

This generally means those who regularly expend XP have reason to delay leveling not just because they're slowing things down by burning XP on spells and items, but to make sure they have a sufficient buffer of XP to spend on their tricks and trade rather than leveling up and suddenly not having the means to do so.


Fluff-wise, again, I'd use this as "spending" XP on leveling up: your experiences gel into new understandings when you study and contemplate and practice with the intent to get better, but if you deliberately hold off, you're contemplating how to forge those experiences (possibly literally) into magic items or considering what of them to sacrifice to the spells which require you to put something of yourself into them.

[Yahzi]

I've been considering starting some item crafting, and there is an XP cost to it.
XP is the worst handled concept in D&D, even worse than HPs. I fixed it with the simple recognition that XP is tangible. It's a purple dust that comes out of creature's brains; you can consume it in discrete quantities and gain levels of supernatural power, or use it to make magic items and cast spells, or just sell it for gold at the well-established rate of 1 XP = 5 gp.

This sounds bizarre but when you put it in practice it works out great. And players love it! Check out my DriveThruRPG stuff in my sig or look at the campaign journal (World of Prime: Campaign Journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544396-World-of-Prime-Campaign-Journal-1)) if you want an idea of how it plays.

[Crake]

XP is the worst handled concept in D&D, even worse than HPs. I fixed it with the simple recognition that XP is tangible. It's a purple dust that comes out of creature's brains; you can consume it in discrete quantities and gain levels of supernatural power, or use it to make magic items and cast spells, or just sell it for gold at the well-established rate of 1 XP = 5 gp.

This sounds bizarre but when you put it in practice it works out great. And players love it! Check out my DriveThruRPG stuff in my sig or look at the campaign journal (World of Prime: Campaign Journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544396-World-of-Prime-Campaign-Journal-1)) if you want an idea of how it plays.

How do you handle xp from non-combat encounters, or encounters where you "defeat" an enemy, but don't actually kill it or capture it, instead forcing it to run away?

[Hackulator]

XP is the worst handled concept in D&D, even worse than HPs. I fixed it with the simple recognition that XP is tangible. It's a purple dust that comes out of creature's brains; you can consume it in discrete quantities and gain levels of supernatural power, or use it to make magic items and cast spells, or just sell it for gold at the well-established rate of 1 XP = 5 gp.

This sounds bizarre but when you put it in practice it works out great. And players love it! Check out my DriveThruRPG stuff in my sig or look at the campaign journal (World of Prime: Campaign Journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544396-World-of-Prime-Campaign-Journal-1)) if you want an idea of how it plays.

What problem did that fix?

[GreatWyrmGold]

XP equals learning.
They expended their learning to discover how to craft that item, rather than learn new skills.
Then why do they have to spend the XP to craft more versions of that item, when they're using the same discoveries? And why doesn't spell research cost XP?



When character expend experience, it mostly means they are not maintaining their edge like if they chose not to spend it on crafting. When you make a scroll of fireball, you spend some time not studying the next level of spells, when you make a magical longsword, you spend time not studying the next level of spells. At all other times, it is assumed your character is constantly pushing himself forward, always studying, always honing himself or maintaining his status.
I don't buy the idea that literally every adventurer is Son Goku. Especially since other time-consuming tasks (like Profession checks, spell research, and mundane crafting) don't cost XP.



XP is the worst handled concept in D&D, even worse than HPs. I fixed it with the simple recognition that XP is tangible. It's a purple dust that comes out of creature's brains; you can consume it in discrete quantities and gain levels of supernatural power, or use it to make magic items and cast spells, or just sell it for gold at the well-established rate of 1 XP = 5 gp.
If I were metaphysicalizing XP, I'd probably go with something a bit more mystic. Like, the active soul-energy leaks from the body when the soul leaves it, and the energy goes to those who defeated it. Of course, any such explanation breaks down a bit with non-combat XP rewards...
I remember once trying to rationalize HP as basically being naturally-produced "healing potions" in your blood. It made...slightly more sense in context.



What problem did that fix?
If an idea is interesting enough, sometimes it doesn't need to fix a problem.



The usual genre separation in function of level helps in this:
1-5 Gritty fantasy
6-10 heroic fantasy
11-15 wuxia
16-20 superheroes
I've never liked this "genre by level" description. Part of that is because I suspect 90% of the people reading it have basically no idea what wuxia is, but mostly because there's more to genre than how tough your characters are (e.g, shonen battle manga is one genre, even though protagonists range from above-average but mundane brawlers to universe-destroying gods).
D&D consistently fits into "heroic fantasy," which (as a genre) has protagonists ranging from normal folks like the Bagginses to god-tier mages like Raistlin Majere. It has all the genre trappings; abundant magic, clearly-defined evils, heroes who do good by beating up said evils, etc etc. Those trappings aren't just present at levels 6-10; they're present from levels 1 to 20 and beyond, and before character generation even begins.
...It doesn't help that spellcasters are too fantastic to fit well into "gritty fantasy" even at low levels (especially the ones with healing magic), or that non-spellcasters never ascend past the levels of heroic fantasy.



D&D HP damage is not actually getting stabbed, it's like combat fatigue. It's like when you see two dudes in a movie sword fighting, they are not constantly running each other through over and over til one falls down. The fewer HP you have, the closer you are to that getting run through moment.
Then why do effects which specifically heal wounds restore HP? Why don't you lose HP by attacking, no matter how exhausted you are? Why can't you recover fatigue by taking a quick break? (Five minutes to rest and recuperate help me feel less tired, and I'd imagine that even combat-induced fatigue could be alleviated by less time than 5e's short rests require.)
In general, the game's mechanics treat HP loss as injury, and then the fluff swoops in to say otherwise like JK Rowling on Twitter. Considering that D&D is consistently heroic fantasy, I'm willing to accept that; how many times have you seen a fantasy hero take stab wound after stab wound or walk around full of arrows?

[Frozen_Feet]

While some things might be achievable at low level via minmaxing, others might not. Endurance running, for example, probably requires a lot of speed boosters (feats, traits, classes that get higher base speed, etc) for the "hustle speed" to match marathon records.

You only need feats available at level 1 and a constitution score somewhere in the mid-twenties to do that. I once made a huge-ass Excell table on the subject to figure out how Constitution score would correlate with 12 minute running test results. The movement rules in d20 D&D are surprisingly realistic, but the math gets fiddly once you introduce lots of optional character building options.

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But wouldn't that mean any time spent sleeping, or in any activity that is not directly related to furthering their skills would cause an XP loss? If my character went to a grassy field and took a day off, should they then lose experience?

If you accept that experience points represent, well, experience, then yes, that'd be the case. Human memory is both limited and lossy so skills erode when they're not practiced. But modeling this to any level of fidelity would be a massive headache, so Exp remains largely abstract character resource that doesn't model much at all.

[ericgrau]

I've been considering starting some item crafting, and there is an XP cost to it. When gaining XP, it's easy to imagine how it represents experience gained in the field. But when spending it, you come face to face with a dilemma. Does a person lose memory of the experience? Certainly they can still remember the events happening, so what do they actually lose?

For item crafting, we can say there's some kind of mystical ju-ju research involved in learning how to make the item. Which you put in instead of research towards your magic and leveling up. Which is weirder if you craft the same item twice I suppose. I've also seen it as described as putting part of yourself into the item.

In any case, crafting xp is a very small amount and you quickly gain it back. Because the moment you're behind a level you're supposed to gain more xp than your allies. With luck, you can end up a little ahead of them in xp. Which is a little wonky but it all averages out in the end. So it's not like you'll even notice, and so the character won't really notice the loss either.

Spells that cost xp OTOH need a bit more explanation. They're more expensive and require little time to cast. So if you were to spam them you'd quickly notice/feel a huge loss. I think the "put a little of yourself into it" explanation makes more sense once you consider spells with xp costs. You can think of it as part of your mind or even part of your soul, similar to resurrection level loss.



Then why do effects which specifically heal wounds restore HP? Why don't you lose HP by attacking, no matter how exhausted you are? Why can't you recover fatigue by taking a quick break? (Five minutes to rest and recuperate help me feel less tired, and I'd imagine that even combat-induced fatigue could be alleviated by less time than 5e's short rests require.)
In general, the game's mechanics treat HP loss as injury, and then the fluff swoops in to say otherwise like JK Rowling on Twitter. Considering that D&D is consistently heroic fantasy, I'm willing to accept that; how many times have you seen a fantasy hero take stab wound after stab wound or walk around full of arrows?
That's why I prefer to think of HP as wounds not causing injury or death. Once you are significantly injured you're at 0 or below. While sometimes people can stay awake and talk when significantly injured, I think that's going in to too much detail. Even if you allowed that, it's not like they can do many other actions anyway. Likewise injuries that cause permanent damage yet not death are too much detail for the system. Often magical healing happens in time to prevent such things anyway, or the injury is usually fatal anyway (in spite of what happens in the movies). Losing a limb or organ usually kills.

[Awakeninfinity]

I've always seen HP as supernatural resistance to damage that all D&D characters have; and exp as the development of supernatural ability in general... D&D is a a fantasy world so the people living there (and to some extent even the pure mundanes) should be fantastic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's why I prefer to think of HP as wounds not causing injury or death. -snip-
This works better, but it brings up the question of why you take a certain arbitrary amount of minor wounds before taking one really bad one. That's why I prefer to think of it as being whatever lets Conan knockoffs run through battle, taking arrows and stab wounds without slowing down.

One of these days, I need to write down my idea for what I'd think a "HP as something other than wounds" system would look like.

[mehs]

https://goblinscomic.fandom.com/wiki/I.M.E.

in short, xp is your soul itself getting stronger and the effects of leveling is both more practice doing what you do and having a soul that more strongly affects your surroundings and self.

[Yahzi]

How do you handle xp from non-combat encounters
Gold. The whole point of XP for non-combat encounters in AD&D was to reward rogues for being clever. So if you can figure out how to sneak past the monster and steal its treasure, you get their gold. Which can be traded for XP. And in the case of unintelligent monsters their treasure is probably in the form of XP anyway (since monsters need XP to spawn new monsters they collect lots of loose XP).

If you disable a magic trap you can break it for a fraction of the XP used to make it. But if you disable a mundane trap then all you get is a cookie. I mean, come on; why wouldn't you disable mundane traps all day long if they gave XP? The DM has to rule on what constitutes a "threat" and that's just a pain for the DM. I don't have to do that. You get their stuff or you get their stuff and their soul. Otherwise you get nada.


What problem did that fix?
So many. Why do side-quests before confronting the BBEG? How do players hire skilled hirelings? How much XP goes to the player's followers after a battle (answer: as much as they care to give them or contracted to give them - which is always more than the rules would require a DM to give out. Imagine your players rewarding/leveling their followers without resenting you for stealing their loot). Why would a wizard make a magic sword for a fighter for gold? Why can't Shadows take over the entire world? Where do heroes come from? What level is the King and why does he spend his time protecting peasants? And lastly, intra-party squabbles over loot... do your players sometimes fight over who gets the magic items? My players agree among themselves who to promote to the next level first. There are level imbalances in my group because the players want it that way.

D&D is a resource management game. XP is the single most valuable resource. Let the players manage it. They'll have more fun and you'll have less headaches.


If I were metaphysicalizing XP, I'd probably go with something a bit more mystic.
If I were doing it over again I probably would too; a more vague representation of "souls," which you enslave to grant you supernatural powers like spells and vitality. But I've already published a 5-book series on purple dust so it is what it is (it fit the main character's perspective since he's a mechanical engineer from Earth). :smallbiggrin:

[Arkhios]

Question: "What is XP, from the perspective of the character?"

Answer: Marshmellows. And campfires.

[ezekielraiden]

A miserable pile of secrets! Wait, wrong game.

I'd say XP is a certain characteristic of souls. It's something older souls have more of, but a young soul can accrue a lot through overcoming danger or completing difficult objectives. Some inherently powerful souls (e.g. demons, dragons) have enough soul power to make accruing more experience more difficult (level adjustment). For those who can stomach the evil of trafficking in souls, those are another way to gain "expendable" XP (and devils make use of these souls to empower themselves, too). And when resurrected, some loss of soul power due to weakening of the soul after death is common.

So yeah. It's a certain potency of one's soul. Defining it any more precisely is a bit like trying to define "sound" more precisely than "pressure waves through a medium": if you do get more precise, you risk excluding valid examples. A formally-trained Wizard could probably articulate one or more theoretical frameworks that explain it, but most who know about it at all probably have a more rule of thumb conception.

[Biggus]

According to the DMG (p.282) to create magic items characters invest "their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) into an item's creation". I always interpreted that as meaning something like soul/ essence in a similar way to magic9mushroom.

As for hit points, the PHB (p.145) says "Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one".