Oozemorph/Twinned Summoner Rules Interaction

[Heikold]

Hey all, I'm a bit stumped.

One of my players wants to run a Shifter (Oozemorph) multiclassed with an Unchained Summoner (Twinned Summoner).

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/shifter/archetypes/oozemorph-shifter-archetype/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner-unchained/archetypes/twinned-summoner-unchained-summoner-archetype/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner-unchained/eidolons-unchained/#TOC-Twinned

So here's the problem. Her "base form" is changed to an ooze by Oozemorph and Twinned Summoner changes her eidolon's form to match the Summoner's "natural form".

Is her "natural form" now an ooze and thus her eidolon would also be an ooze? Or is her "natural form" still her original race and her eidolon looks like that?

I suppose the real question I'm asking here is this: "Is the term 'base form' a synonym for the term 'natural form' or are these two separate things?"

Here's the specific wording used in each bit:

An oozemorph’s base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight. An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type from her race for the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as bane weapons and a ranger’s favored enemy).
This ability may require a different base form or subtype to match the twinned summoner’s natural form, at the GM’s discretion, if the twinned summoner is not a bipedal creature.

[Eldonauran]

This is going to fall within the realms of "Ask your GM to make a decision" because, depending on how you approach the problem, it will change your assumptions and conclusions. I'll give you my perspective:

It depends on which class the character takes first. It is the Oozemorph ability that is causing the change to the character's base form. If they start as an Oozemorph, the twinned eidolon should be an Ooze. If they start as a Twinned Summoner, the twinned Eidolon should be what the character's base form was. If this was Gestalt rules, and both happened at the same time, default to Ooze.

This issue only pops up because it is a class that is doing the changing to base form. Templates that do so are usually inherited (and before levels) or acquired (during/between levels). The Oozemorph is a unique occurrence/exception to how these issues are normally resolved.

[upho]

Hey all, I'm a bit stumped.

One of my players wants to run a Shifter (Oozemorph) multiclassed with an Unchained Summoner (Twinned Summoner).Heh, considering the sloppy wording of Fluidic Body and the "open-ended" nature of Twinned Eidolon, I can certainly see why you're "a bit stumped". While Eldonauran already said the most important thing here (this is "ask your GM"-territory), I'll try to clarify an unfortunate little mistake in the related rules and the few things those rules actually do say. And actually, I think this doesn't have to be much of an issue at all if going by RAW almost as far as possible and at least implied, and if nothing else, the RAW may help you reach a decision on what rules mechanics the party's "twin blobs" will have in your game.


Is her "natural form" now an ooze and thus her eidolon would also be an ooze? Or is her "natural form" still her original race and her eidolon looks like that?Her natural form is now an ooze, as per the Ooozemorph archetype rules. Which in turn means her eidolon is also an ooze, as per the Twinned Summoner archetype rules.


I suppose the real question I'm asking here is this: "Is the term 'base form' a synonym for the term 'natural form' or are these two separate things?"I'm fairly certain that whomever wrote/edited the Oozemorph confused the terminology, because "base form/creature" is a term otherwise used by eidolons and creature templates exclusively, the exact meaning differing depending on which of these two contexts the term is used in. Or they simply didn't realize "base form" already has these two different rather well-defined game terms, none of which have the same meaning as "natural form". In short:


Fluidic Body should use the term "natural form" when referring to the oozemorph's default "oozelike" shape when unaffected by polymorph effects.
-
The term "base form/creature" refers to either
A - a creature's "eidolon shape", which determines the starting values of eidolons (only), and whether a creature (eidolon or other) can gain certain evolutions (such as when taking the Evolved Companion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-companion/) feat).
B - the starting creature(s) abilities and statistics when adding a creature template.
So Fluidic Body should use the term "base form/creature" only when referring to the shape of the PC's original race (and any non-magic permanent additions/changes to that shape), meaning whatever her natural form was before she became an Oozemorph (treating the archetype as if it was a creature template).

IOW, "base form/creature" is definitely not the same thing as "natural form". For example: the natural form of an eidolon is whatever form its eidolon base form and evolutions gained from level-ups has given it; ie the form the eidolon defaults to when unaffected by polymorph effects. If the eidolon gains a template, everything about it before the template is added is "the base creature" - including its creature type(s), abilities not dependent on physical form etc, plus the saves, ability scores, limbs, weird evolutions, eye color, whatever of its natural form.

On top of this, there's quite a bit of vital info in the two FAQ items related to the Oozemorph's Fluidic Body (see the "FAQ" sidebar on the d20pfsrd.com Oozemorph page). When this FAQ info is added to the description in the printed book and the "base form"/"natural form" errors are corrected, this is what Fluidic Body says which affects the Twinned Eidolon:

(Changes/additions by me in red. The sentence in parenthesis might arguably not affect the eidolon if trying to follow RAW as closely as possible, but I think at the very least Compression definitely should.)

"An oozemorph’s natural form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight. An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type from her race for the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as bane weapons and a ranger’s favored enemy). Despite having an oozelike shape, an oozemorph’s natural form is not an ooze, though it does also count as an ooze for the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type. Her new oozelike natural form doesn’t gain any abilities of the ooze creature type except as stated here.

In her natural form, the oozemorph is immune to critical hits and precision damage and can’t be flanked. This form retains the base senses and land speed of the oozemorph’s original race, as well as racial abilities like dwarfs’ greed or gnomes’ obsession that don’t depend on shape, but she loses abilities dependent on form, including form-based speeds like strix’s flight (and most other racial speeds beyond land speed), racial natural attacks like catfolks’ claws, and other abilities like tieflings’ prehensile tail. (An oozemorph’s compression, damage reduction, and morphic weaponry function in her oozelike form and any form she takes via fluidic body, though not in forms she takes via other polymorph effects.)

An oozemorph can carry items floating in its mass that are considered to be attuned. However, she cannot cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.

An oozemorph reverts to this formless state whenever she is unconscious or in an area of antimagic."

In effect, in order to be most in line with the RAW, I believe the PC's eidolon should first be made as if her natural form still was that of her base creature, and then the eidolon should be immediately transformed into a blob as per the above, just as the summoner herself was. So the eidolon would start with its (likely) biped base form values (ability scores, saves etc) and with both the ooze creature type and its default outsider type, and then gain evolutions as normal. And strictly RAW, since the Summoner's oozelike natural form in itself doesn't have any abilities which translates into evolutions besides crit and flanking immunity (and perhaps Compression), her eidolon also doesn't gain the normal biped free evolutions (though the eidolon still gains the appropriate land speed, despite having no legs).

All that said, I'd recommend you also grant the eidolon the limbs (arms) evo (so that it at least can do something without additional evo points), and Fluidic Body's alter self function, replacing the default Twinned eidolon's starting evos (arms, legs) and 4th level casting ability. Fluidic Body's alter self function could perhaps simply automatically revert the eidolon back to what it would've been without the oozemorph archetype for as long as the summoner uses her ability.

HTH!

[Eldonauran]

All that said, I'd recommend you also grant the eidolon the limbs (arms) evo (so that it at least can do something without additional evo points), and Fluidic Body's alter self function, replacing the default Twinned eidolon's starting evos (arms, legs) and 4th level casting ability. Fluidic Body's alter self function could perhaps simply automatically revert the eidolon back to what it would've been without the oozemorph archetype for as long as the summoner uses her ability.

HTH!
This seems to be the best middle ground for the situation.

[Heikold]

Thanks for the help guys and the really well reasoned responses - asking here always helps!

The problem I'm having is that this is PFS so we have to go hyper RAW and can't just eyeball it in terms of "ask your GM".

So seeing as they were a Shifter at level 1 and are now taking a level in Summoner, we're reckoning that the Eidolon reflects the ooze form right?

Sadly they won't have the arms evolution unless he spends the evolution points to get it I don't think.

[Eldonauran]

Thanks for the help guys and the really well reasoned responses - asking here always helps!

The problem I'm having is that this is PFS so we have to go hyper RAW and can't just eyeball it in terms of "ask your GM".

So seeing as they were a Shifter at level 1 and are now taking a level in Summoner, we're reckoning that the Eidolon reflects the ooze form right?

Sadly they won't have the arms evolution unless he spends the evolution points to get it I don't think.
Yeah, I don't recommend playing such a character in PFS. It is simply not worth the hassle. Nearly every session is going to an issue. I'd have told you that much if I knew that bit of information at the start.

[upho]

I absolutely agree with Eldonauran. Because AFAICT, it's actually impossible "to go hyper RAW" in this case, since there simply are no definitive RAW to begin with.

For example, instead of going the route I suggested in my previous post, you could certainly argue that it would be even closer to RAW if everything the Summoner gains from being a 1st level Oozemorph which is a part of her new natural form should also be granted her eidolon by default when she takes the 1st level in Summoner. This would not only include all the abilities/changes/benefits included in the Fluidic Body feature (including alter self), but also those of the Compression and Morphic Weaponry features.

So I can't see how this won't end up with the player having little knowledge of what their PC's mechanics are, as they're likely to differ between each session depending on situation and GM. On top of the very high risk of the class combo causing GM headaches and play being bogged down by complicated rules issues.

I recommend you instead talk to the player and allow them a free rebuild of this PC before playing her again (and/or talk to whomever within the PFS organization having the power to grant the player a rebuild).

[Heikold]

They haven’t actually taken the level in summoner yet - this is currently theoretical.

I’ll let them know what you guys said. I have to say I agree.