To Sorcadin, or not to Sorcadin? (Paladin, Ancients Oath)

[Ranor95]

Hello!

So my friends and I are steadily progressing in a campaign, we are currently level 4, but I was wondering about whether I should stick strictly to Paladin or if I should take some levels in Sorcerer. Largely because our party is entirely missing any kind of arcane caster and because I like the idea of mingling in more to do than just slapping people with smites, then slapping people with a sword when those run out. However I have a few burning questions:

1) As I have taken Oath of the Ancients, I am tempted to not take any Sorc levels until lv7, since Aura of Warding seems exceptionally potent and will no doubt save us a few times by itself. Is this a good idea? Or should I take Sorc levels earlier than that?

2) What's the maximum number of Sorc levels I should take? I was thinking either just 3 as a 'dip' of sorts, to pick up meta magic and a handful of spells. Or would it be worth pushing further? Taking into account what I would give up in the Paladin leveling table.

3) If I'm going Sorcadin I understand at some stage I need to start taking feats, when would be the best time to do this? I was thinking Warcaster at my next ASI, but I'm currently sitting on 17 CHA and would like to see that rounded out to 18 before anything else.

4) What's a suitable Origin? Dragon only really seems to benefit lightly armoured characters besides the HP boost. Divine Soul has too much overlap and just boosts healing more than anything (We already have a dedicated healer). Phoenix might be an idea but the fluff description doesn't suit my Paladin at all. Etc.

Any further suggestions would be helpful. I'm likely going to be tanking, buffing and debuffing more than anything else, damage is nice but not going to be my focus.

[Keravath]

Mechanically, many folks multiclass into sorcerer for the greater selection of spells and the higher level spell slots that come from a full caster vs half caster progression.

From a roleplay perspective, you can do whichever feels best.

In my opinion, as an Oath of the Ancients paladin, the level 7 aura can be very useful so I wouldn't take levels of sorcerer until after that. If you are planning on being mostly melee and have lots of attacks by using polearm master or similar then level 11 for improved divine smite can also be tempting. Paladin also offers some other nice higher level features which might be appealing IF you ever expect the character to reach that level.

As for which type of sorcerer, they are all pretty good. Dragon gives you some extra hit points for your sorcerer levels, Shadow has 120' darkvision and some other useful features while the Divine Soul has the cleric spell list and 2d4 to an attack or save once/short rest.

I am also of the opinion that there is less overlap than you think with Divine Soul since you can choose any sorcerer spell as well as cleric spells that aren't on the paladin list. For example, spirit guardians taken at 5th level sorcerer might be excellent on a melee paladin .. especially since you can quicken it to cast it in your first round and STILL get in your attacks. Having either warcaster or resilient constitution though will help for you to maintain concentration on the spell while in melee. Spiritual weapon would be another good option at 3rd level sorcerer if you don't already have a bonus action attack. Neither of these cleric spells are on the paladin spell list but could be chosen as a divine soul sorcerer.

[Wuzza]

This is kinda one of the things I'm yet to fully to understand with multiclassing. If you're gonna go to lvl 7 (or 3/11 etc), is there any negative heading to lvl 8, or relative ,to get your next stat boost/feat?
It just seems that getting the boost, unless there's a pretty amazing skill you're foregoing, would be more beneficial?

[Fryy]

Hello!

So my friends and I are steadily progressing in a campaign, we are currently level 4, but I was wondering about whether I should stick strictly to Paladin or if I should take some levels in Sorcerer. Largely because our party is entirely missing any kind of arcane caster and because I like the idea of mingling in more to do than just slapping people with smites, then slapping people with a sword when those run out. However I have a few burning questions:

So, probably go only 7 levels in Paladin and the rest in Sorcerer.



1) As I have taken Oath of the Ancients, I am tempted to not take any Sorc levels until lv7, since Aura of Warding seems exceptionally potent and will no doubt save us a few times by itself. Is this a good idea? Or should I take Sorc levels earlier than that?

Probably go straight to Paladin 7 because levels 5, 6, & 7 are so beneficial.
Level 5 - extra attack
Level 6 - Aura (+Chr to Saves)
Level 7 - Aura (Ancients)


2) What's the maximum number of Sorc levels I should take? I was thinking either just 3 as a 'dip' of sorts, to pick up meta magic and a handful of spells. Or would it be worth pushing further? Taking into account what I would give up in the Paladin leveling table. At least 5 levels Sorcerer for level 3 spells.



3) If I'm going Sorcadin I understand at some stage I need to start taking feats, when would be the best time to do this? I was thinking Warcaster at my next ASI, but I'm currently sitting on 17 CHA and would like to see that rounded out to 18 before anything else. It depends on whether you use a shield or a two-handed weapon. You'll need War Caster in order if you are using a shield in order to cast Shield or Absorb Elements spells as a reaction... as well as casting many other Sorc spells.



4) What's a suitable Origin? Dragon only really seems to benefit lightly armoured characters besides the HP boost. Divine Soul has too much overlap and just boosts healing more than anything (We already have a dedicated healer). Phoenix might be an idea but the fluff description doesn't suit my Paladin at all. Etc.
Shadow or Divine Soul are both very good. Shadow (for me) makes you kind of a Batman / Dark Knight (in a good way). Divine Soul has a lot of good clerical utility, Spirit Guardians is great, and the saving throw boost (once per short rest) combines nicely with your level 6 Aura.

[PeteNutButter]

The big appeal to sorcerer dip is the shield spell at first, then the more smite slots, then metamagic at 3. After that you just want the ASI and full caster slots & spells like haste.

So, if you are using S&B there is little reason to dip sorcerer before level 8 when you can grab warcaster. There you can pick up warcaster. But then you are on the slippery slope, 3 levels away from that amazing level 11 feature in paladin. Veer away only if you desperately need that AC boost from shield spell.

On the flip side if you use a 2-hander, you don't need warcaster to get a load out of shield spell. You can sneak that first sorcerer level in anywhere. I'd probably pick it up after paladin 6, unless the campaign/DM uses a lot of enemy spellcasters. If your campaign/DM favors short adventuring days, that encourages more sorcerer levels as you can blast out quickened BB/GFBs loaded with smites for 3 attacks/smites a round. That burns through resources like crazy and will certainly lose out on damage compared to paladin 11 over a long adventuring day.

As for the sorcerer archetype, pick what you like. A good appeal to dragon isn't just the +1 hp, but the ability to add cha again to the damage on GFB at level 6. Quickening an attack that does weapon damage + str mod + cha mod + smite and any other riders is a hell of a bonus action.

The others all have their appeal. Wild magic is fun if your DM allows frequent surges. With the ancients Aura, fireballing yourself is just a win win, especially when you'll usually be in melee. Shadow is a little overpowered if you want to annoy your teammates with vision issues. Divine Soul is good for a wider spell selection and neat short rest ability. Personally I don't think it's that great unless you get at least to sorcerer 5, as you'll have most of the lower level cleric spells on your list already from paladin.

[Mitsu]

IMO:

As Ancient you want to get level 7 because aura feature. However at the same time it's only 1 level to ASI on 8.

But even if that I would multiclass to Sorcerer on 8 and do 7/13 build. You can also do 7 Paladin/1 Hexblade/12 Sorcerer for SAD CHA, though I myself prefer Sorcerer only as STR can be boosted by magic items in game quite well.

So just go to 7 and multiclass from there.

To not lose some of best Paladin spells- I recommend Divine Soul as imo strongest Sorc subclass now. You will still be able to have Revivify, Death Ward, Spirit Guardians, Holy Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Greater Restoration etc etc. while having access to all Sorcerer goodies.

Also what race are you and what feat did you take on level 4 (and 1 if you are Vuman)?

The most important thing imo is to get 20 CHA as fast as possible on Sorcadins + War Caster or RES (CON). This is like must for them.

[Ranor95]

Thanks for the responses!

As is I'm currently going S+B with duelling. So I'll have to take warcaster at some point. I'm thinking at lv8 (Though that 17 CHA is taunting me...), then for 9 I start going Sorc. I'll look into Divine Soul again, just at first glance I wasn't sure what it would offer. Dragon might be good but uncertain if I'll go up to 6 levels of sorc yet. I'm a long ways off even hitting 7 so I at least have a long time to plan it out.

For reference I am playing a minotaur paladin, I took a +2 to CHA at lv4. Stats as follows as of now: STR 16, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 17.

[Corran]

Hello!
1) As I have taken Oath of the Ancients, I am tempted to not take any Sorc levels until lv7, since Aura of Warding seems exceptionally potent and will no doubt save us a few times by itself. Is this a good idea? Or should I take Sorc levels earlier than that?
Aura of warding is not bad, but note that it only applies against damage from spells. And generally, if you know you are facing something with a strong AoE attack, it's better to spread out than stay close to profit from aura of protection and aura of warding. As I said though, it's not a bad feature (though I think it is often overestimated), and given that the channel divinities of ancients are not that great either, I'd say that it's probably worth it to not stop at paladin 6. But when you are up to paladin 7, that means you are only 2 levels away from 3rd level paladin spells. So consider grabbing 9 levels of paladin.


2) What's the maximum number of Sorc levels I should take? I was thinking either just 3 as a 'dip' of sorts, to pick up meta magic and a handful of spells. Or would it be worth pushing further? Taking into account what I would give up in the Paladin leveling table.
Maximum? Probably 13 or 14. Minimum? I'd say that anything with less than 5 sorc levels is probably not worth it, as a hexblade dip overshadows it. Sorcerer works off sorcery points, and one of the reasons that sorcadin is good, is because he can put those sorcery points to work. So I think that from a 20th level perspective, the best choice is between 9 and 14 sorcerer levels (including 9 and 14 as potential choices).


3) If I'm going Sorcadin I understand at some stage I need to start taking feats, when would be the best time to do this? I was thinking Warcaster at my next ASI, but I'm currently sitting on 17 CHA and would like to see that rounded out to 18 before anything else.
You need warcaster (as you rightly mentioned your later post). I like grabbing it at level 4 and take my first sorcerer level at character level 5 (even rush 3 sorc levels for blur if I really need the tanking boost). If you can't retrain, or dont want to retrain your level 4 ASI, then it's probably to commit to 9 paladin levels (dont stop at 8, it's a real shame, 3rd level paladin spells are good!), take warcaster at paladin 8, and then take your first sorcerer level at character level 10 most likely. You have a relatively low charisma. And even though sorcadins delay your ASI's a bit (because of both multiclassing and requiring of you to grab warcaster), I think the decision to go for sorcadin is worth it in the long run. That's because sorcadins dont really need all the good feats a paladin would profit from (feats like sentinel and PAM/SM and perhaps resilient). You only need warcaster. So you can focus on bumping your charisma (other than taking warcaster) without worrying about missing on good feats.
Edit: You will need a half feat, most likley either a sttength or a charisma half feat. Look at both charisma and strength half feats, decide which one you like the most, and if it's a cha 1/2feat then pick it instead of your next cha bump. And if it's a str 1/2feat then go with +1 cha,+1 str with you next ASI (after warcaster) and finally take the str 1/2 feat at high levels as your last ASI.


4) What's a suitable Origin? Dragon only really seems to benefit lightly armoured characters besides the HP boost. Divine Soul has too much overlap and just boosts healing more than anything (We already have a dedicated healer). Phoenix might be an idea but the fluff description doesn't suit my Paladin at all. Etc.
Any will work fine. They dont make much of a difference for a s&b sorcadin. Pick the one you like the most and dont worry if it's the best choice or not, they are of very similar value IMO (I think oaths dictate more of the build because you can build nicely around channel divinities; with ancients perhaps being the exception).


Any further suggestions would be helpful. I'm likely going to be tanking, buffing and debuffing more than anything else, damage is nice but not going to be my focus.
I will leave you an old post to have a look if you are interested (it's a bit long). As I said, the post is old, so there are things I would do differently now (both because I know better, or at least I think so, and also because we have new toys now; for example, absorb elements was not on the sorcerer's list back then). One major thing I should also point out, is that when I was writing it, I didn't take into account the sage advice regarding the careful metamagic, so that might change some of my choices if..... well, what I want to say, is that now we can do better than what I did in that post.:smallsmile:

Concept: Longsword + Shield
Class: Paladin (Ancients) 9 / Sorcerer (Wild Magic) 11
Race: Halfelf
Final HP: 10 + 8d10 + 11d6 + 3x20 = 152
Final AC: 21 (Plate + Shield + Defense) , +5 with the shield spell (Reaction)
Start Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 10 - 16
Final Stats: 16 - 8 - 16 - 8 - 10 - 20
Feats: Warcaster, Inspiring Leader
Fighting Style: Defense


Paladin
Level 1: Ensnaring Strike*, Speak with Animals*, Cure Wounds, Command
Level 2: Moonbeam*, Misty Step*, Aid, Lesser Restoration
Level 3: Plant Growth*, Protection from Energy*, Aura of Vitality, Dispel Magic, Revivify
*Oath Spells
(You can also prepare 2 extra spells in addition to the above every day.)

Sorcerer
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green - Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation
Level 1: Shield
Level 2: Web, Hold Person
Level 3: Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, Fly
Level 4: Banishment
Level 5: Cone of Cold, Animate Objects
Level 6: Chain Lightning

Spell Slots: 4(1st) 3(2nd) 3(3rd) 3(4th) 2(5th) 1(6th) 1(7th) 1(8th)
Sorcery Points: 11

Metamagic
Quickened Spell... For anything really, though the idea is to use it with blast-y spells.
Careful Spell... Web, Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern.
Extended Spell... Aura of Vitality.



Let me start with the bad news.
This guy has little to offer in terms of spell support as far as buffing allies and/or himself goes. The main reason for this, is because the oath of the ancients (unlike crown and oathbreakers) has little to offer in the department of battlefield control (and wild magic surges are too random to take account for), so in order to be able to exert serious control on the battlefield, you need to use your concentration with spells like web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. You do have warcaster + BB along with a channel divinity (nature's wrath) that can help with controlling the battlefield, though they are not enough on their own if you hope to command the frontline and be a tank (and this character is aiming to fullfill this role). This is why the spell list is missing otherwise fantastic options like haste, polymorph and greater invisibility (also why preparing bless is left at player's discretion). These are all wonderful spells, but they do require your conentration and they dont help you control the battlefield efficiently, as other spells that also require concentration do. And without controlling the battlefield efficiently, you are no proper tank, no sir! This is also why you dont see the twinned metamagic on this character, since the prime candidates for twinning are not on our list of known spells. Either way, we have went deep into the paladin class, thus missing on sorcery points and spell slots, so missing the twinned spell metamagic might actually be a blessing in disguise, since twinning spells is rather expensive.
Last but not least, not reaching 14 levels in Wild Magic Sorcerer means that we get to roll only once on the wild magic surge table, so whatever the result will be, you have to take it. This is not so bad, since having both aura of protection and aura of warding (both profit allies within 10 feet too), and since you plan on being on the front lines near your enemies, all of the above factors make you want to roll as often as possible on the wild magic surge table, even without the safety net of that second roll. So this is still mostly a good thing. But if (more likely, when) you turn into a potted plan, dont come back here blaiming other people for your own choices; you were warned...

But here is where the bad news stop.
This guy is actually good at some things.


Almost every S&B sorcadin with at least 6 levels in paladin can become an excellent tank, that much is known already. The combination of a high AC, good HP, and very good saving throws, along with spells like shield, are all that it takes for you to build up your survivability. All that remains is to add a bit of control on top of the already pre-existing warcaster&BB.
Unlike crown and oathbreaker paladins, ancients dont get any concentration-free mass-control options, so that is why we went with the careful spell metamagic and the spells web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects. Each of the first three targets a different save, so this is enough reason to get all 3 of them (remember, you rely exclusively on your concentration spells for serious battlefield control, so you should have as many different options as possible). Even stinking cloud, which at first glance seems to be the worst of these 3 spells, can be extremelly useful under the right circumstances (high dex&wis opponents, or high dex opponents with immunity/advantage against being charmed, or high wis opponents who can use fire and burn burn down our web, etc). Animate objects is a whole different animal. A very strong spell, that can exert a lot of control, and deal a lot of damage at the same time, no saves involved. It does take up your bonus actions (most likely for the whole encounter), so be sure to use it when you think that quickening blast spells will be of the least use to you. Managing your sorcery points is very important, and when you use animate objects, it helps you save on them. Knowing when to use it and when not is the key.

So, this was basically the jist of it, some inner thoughts and a few tips follow...

I was tempted to go with Fear as one of the spells that would allow me to control the battlefield, but decided against it, since scattering the enemies wouldn't be helpful regarding my blasting potential (fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold, chain lightning).

The fact that you will (almost) always have to use your concentration with a spell that helps you control the battlefield (web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern, animate objects), forced me to not include spells like haste and greater invisibility, that would increase our (effective) AC, among other things. The other side of that coin though, is that we get aura of warding, which adds in a different way to our tanking potential (and to that of nearby allies).

I decided against mirror image (or even polymorph for self casting) as potential panic buttons, simply because I find the cost of quickening them to be too high when taking into account the weaknesses they some inherent with (mirror image burns too fast on a tank, and self-polymorph runs a high risk of having its concentration dropped). Not that they are bad options that I wouldn't include in other sorcadin builds, I just prefered saving my sp mainly for quickening blast spells. Besides, if you really want a panic button, just (up)cast careful fireball at your feet when having lots of enemies around. You and your nearby allies (within 10 feet) are guaranteed to take 1/4 of the damage you roll (due to careful and aura of warding), while your enemies will take their chances for either full or half damage, depending on their save. Clearly, this last bit is not really my advice, but... if any character is to perform something silly like that, then it is this character. And since you are considering a wild magic sorcadin, I suspect you may find this sort of thing amusing. Just make sure beforehand that your friends at the table have a similar sense of humor. And seriously, dont spam something like this, it is not good tactics.

Your control options that impose the restrained condition (web and nature's wrath), have good synergy with your blasting spells (a restrained enemy has disadvantage on dex saves), so make sure to make good use of that fact. First restrain, then blast. Just be careful not to burn down your own web (so web + fireball is a no go).

Your channel divinity, nature's wrath, although a bit lackluster at first glance (and maybe rightly so), does have some advantages. It is a concntration-free control option (in fact it is the only one such that you have), that also imposes the restrained condition if it lands (as mentioned above, good synergy with your blasting spells). You can always use it on top of whatever concentration spell you have going on, for example to restrain that additional enemy that wasn't incapacitated/ restrained/ lost his action due to hypnotic pattern/ web/ stinking cloud resectively, or against that enemy that managed to slip through all of your animated forks and is heading for your caster in the back row. Keep in mind, that it is always better to use it against low-STR targets, since if the enemy fails his first saving throw, he is pretty much forced to roll str saves to escape it as he will have disadvantage on dex saves due to already being restrained. Last but not least, nature's wrath does not use up any of your daily resources, and recharges after a short rest. This is very important for sorcadis, who can burn through their resources very quickly. So be smart about saving on your resources, and dont forget using your nature's wrath.


With our concentration being reserved already, I wanted to find useful and entertaining ways to spend our sorcery points and spell slots on. And while smiting can contribute to some extent in that respect, blasting can lend a hand too, all while making our play more efficient and optimal at the same time.
There is nothing more iconic imo for a sorcadin, than something along the lines of smiting with his weapon and quickening a lightning bolt, all in the same round. Yes, I know, you cannot hope to do that every round, I just wanted to show that casting the traditional spells (like good old fireball and lightning bolt) is as much iconic as smiting, for a sorcadin. Quickened spell is not only for quickening buffs and debuffs, and sorcadins are not only for providing additional smite fuel. There are blasty spells that want to be brought into play and help you add a whole new dimension to it.
And remember, with our concentration being already taken up, and since it is not really a good option to spend higher than 4th level spell slots for smiting, blasting is perhaps the single best way (from a combat perspective) to use your high level spell slots with, for some of which you dont have even known spells of equivalent level (not that you cannot blast using lower level slots, but smite competes for them as well). Wether the most optimal approach or not, it sure seems like a very entertaining one.

This is mostly why I went with cheap metamagic options, such as careful and extended spell, apart from quicken which is basically a given for any sorcadin (though to be more precise, careful was necessary for control and twinned was avoided due to being forced to drop the best candidates for it since they also required concentration; I only really avoided heightened, so that I can spare more sorcery points for quickening blast spells). Granted, I could have gone with empowered instead of extended for my 3rd metamagic, and perhaps this is even the best thing to do, though I was a bit afraid of the cost of empowered spell accumulating quickly. This is definitely what a paladin(ancients)7/sorcerer(wild magic)13 variation of this build would do though (ie exchange extended spell metamagic with empowered spell metamagic).


I thus went with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning. Three different damage types (I could be more versatile in that respect, but I chose some iconic spells over others with a damage type that I didnt have), and four different areas of effect, make for a very versatile selection, especially considering the limitations on the number of spells a sorcerer can learn, and the need for our build to cover other roles too.

Other than that, I dont have much else to say about the spells themselves. Usually the area of effect will dictate which one you should use, so that is pretty straightforward. Damage type can also affect your decision too, and that's even more straightforward. If you want to go through the trouble of calculating how damage scales when upcasting these spells, and which one of these spells is the ideal choice for every single spell slot, you can go ahead and do that, but in the end, your decision will be affected by the two afforementioned parameters (area of effect and damage type) like 99% of the times.

Oh, and Fly, was taken to enhance that caster feeling that the blast spells are meant to give you. Plus, blasting from above can be really good sometimes.


Some more inner thoughts related to theme/rp

I was almost tempted to not include fireball due to the nature-loving theme of the oath of the ancients, but I finally succumed to the temptation and included it in my final spell list, as it is simply too good of a spell to not choose. Also because, someone who will read the synopsis of this build and does include fireball in his plans, might eventually come up on his own with the idea of fireballing his feet... statistically speaking at least one person will do that.... and that will be hillarious! If you are reading this, dont fireball at your feet... just no... (casts not-so-subtle reverse psychology).
Anyway, what was I saying? Ah yes. Fireball. If you find it working strongly against the theme of this hippy of a character, you can drop it. And if you keep it, just make sure you dont burn your own web spell, as mentioned previously, or any beautiful trees for that matter.

For the same reason I was tempted to get rid of fireball (ancients theme), I wanted really badly to include Fire Storm. See, Fire Storm comes with the option of not harming plant life. (''My love for nature and wildlife is so great, that I could never harm it, even when I am raining fire down my enemies.'')
Alas, it is a 7th level sorcerer spell, and we cannot have it (ancients7/wildsorc's13 can go for it though). That's the price I pay for wanting badly to go all the way up to paladin 9.


Now, I've said several times that our concentration is already taken up (and for good reason). And since debuff spells require concentration (at least the top ones do), you would expect from this build to not have any such spells. However, I couldn't leave the final spell list completelly devoid of debuff's in good consciense, particularly since at sorcerer (wild) 6 we get bend luck. So I included two such spells.

Banishment
If it is big, bad and UGLY (I am pretty sure I'm stealing this line but I cant remember where from), use this spell, potentially along with bend luck (that costs 2 sp and your reaction). The cost of bend luck (thinking mostly of the reaction and not the sp now) is an important one, so if your DM is cooperative or not in regard to how you use this power will play a major role in how effective this power will be for you. Logically, since you play a wild sorcerer, chances are that the DM is a decent fellow that thinks it is important that his players have fun (if not, why the heck are you using wild sorcerer levels with your sorcadin?!!), so he will probably allow you (some) knowledge of how the enemy rolled on his save against your spell. Whatever the case may be, there are definitely bound to be times, when you will be thankful that you had this particular combination of bend luck and banishment. It is a save or suck spell, so as with all save or suck spells, be careful not to use it against anything with legendary resistances (so no dragons for starters), and also ofc against anything with a good charisma saving throw (so no other sorcadins, for starters). The fact that you can upcast this spell to target additional targets, along with that it targets a rarely resisted save (charisma), make it a really good spell.

Hold Person
Ok, this is for the rather well known by now, quickened hold person & smite combo. The fact that you have extra attack, and that you will be going for a top charisma score, make selecting this spell a very good choice. Always try to upcast it (if possible) by at least 1 spell level, so that you improve the chances of it landing and not wasting the slot and the 2 sp for no reason. And as you suspected, always quicken it. This combo may be impressive, but it will eat through your slots and your sp really fast. So dont spam it. Hell, you cannot spam it even if you want to, remember how you have to keep your concentration with one of web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern and animate objects like almost all the time? Anyway, you will use this spell every once in a while, just to enjoy those autocrits with double smite dice loaded up. This kind of complements your impressive blasting potential, in a way that it lets you shine when using your weapon.


Some inner thoughts

I was tempted to go with hold monser over hold person, but went with hold person mostly because I wanted to keep my higher level slots open for more blating, and not use them with a secondary concentration option (ie hold monster), albeit a good one. In the end, hold person is cheaper to use and easier to upcast (targeting multiple targets is important for these kind of spells that add targets when upcast), thus I ended up deciding in favor of my spell slots, contrary to wider applicability of a hold spell, that serves a secondary function (ie debuffing) of this build.

I also decided in favor of banishment over polymorph. The latter is equally good (perhaps even better) at debuffing an enemy, and can also be used to buff an ally or yourself. But in the end I prefered banishment, simply because it targets charisma (while polymorph targets wisdom, same as the hold spells, so having more saves to target is a good thing), and charisma is less likely resisted than wisdom, and also because banishment can be upcast (and for the millionth time, upcasting spells that add targets when upcast is the way to do it).


Now, this is a role that we really shine at, so much in fact, that it is quite possible that the dedicated healer of the party will be so embarassed so he may quit adventuring.

Gastronomie already gives a good indication of what to expect in this area from a build such as this, so you can read the healer section at the possible party roles part of this guide. I'll go ahead and list our goodies without giving much explanation for now (as writing all this took a lot more time than I expected, and I got really tired), though I may come back at some point and edit this section.

- Lay on Hands (45 HP)
- Aura of Protection (+5 cha)
- Aura of Warding
- Cure Wounds
- Aid
- Lesser Restoration (quicken)
- Dispel Magic
- Aura of Vitality (extended)
- Inspiring Leader feat
- Revivify

Yeah, you are one of the best healers in the whole game.


Sure, you can be one, why not? With maxed charisma and 2 extra skills from being a halfelf? Easy.

Personally, if I were to start playing this character tomorrow, I would probably go with sth like this for my skills: Athletics, Persuasion, Performance, Animal Hnadling, Nature, Perception. Perhaps even grab a musical instrument proficiency or two as a background trait, to play some elven hippy music. Left deception and intimidation out on purpose, not that with a 20 in charisma we wont be good in those skills (''Wait, what is that noise?''), but still, better leave intimidation and deception to potential other party members, no need to outshine everyone (''Do you hear it too???''). It's important for everyone at the group to have a function during social interactions. (''Yeah, it's the bard all right. He is laughing his ass off all this time...'')

[Mitsu]

Thanks for the responses!

As is I'm currently going S+B with duelling. So I'll have to take warcaster at some point. I'm thinking at lv8 (Though that 17 CHA is taunting me...), then for 9 I start going Sorc. I'll look into Divine Soul again, just at first glance I wasn't sure what it would offer. Dragon might be good but uncertain if I'll go up to 6 levels of sorc yet. I'm a long ways off even hitting 7 so I at least have a long time to plan it out.

For reference I am playing a minotaur paladin, I took a +2 to CHA at lv4. Stats as follows as of now: STR 16, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 17.

Ok, first of all you need to round up that CHA. It's killing me :D. I think you absolutely need to get level 8 Paladin for ASI because otherwise you are little of a mess when it comes to stats. Normally I would say 7/13 or 6/14 but here we need that ASI progress untouched.

Solution is level 8: +2 CHA for CHA 19 and them level 12 War Caster. This gives you +4 Aura at level 8 and War Caster at level 12 (adv on conc saves). Good option but you will be stuck with that 19 CHA till level 16.



IN SHORT:

STR 16, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 17:
Level 8: +2 CHA. CHA: 19
Level 12: War Caster
Level 16: Actor feat. CHA 20

You can take first War Caster, but I strongly recommend taking +2 CHA first for 19 CHA and +4 to Aura and Spell DCs. CHA is bread n butter for Sorcadin.

Summary:

This is imo best what you can do to optimize at this point and get at least that +4 to Saves from Aura.

And so I recommend 8/12 split for Paladin Sorcerer. Don't worry about level 9 Paladin spells, you can get a lot of them later from Divine Soul Sorcerer, which is what I would recommend for you.

[Corran]

Ok, first of all you need to round up that CHA. It's killing me :D.
Right?!!!
Heavy armor master is also a choice.

[Aussiehams]

I've got a lvl S&B 5 DB Vengeance Pally and am looking at a MC into Shadow sorcerer at 7. I'm only planning on the 1 lvl to get dark vision, shield, Absorb elements, firebolt and Booming blade. The DM is not onboard with a Hexblade dip.

Is a 1 lvl dip a bad idea in general?

For the OP, I would probably wait to 9 after your ASI, and then see how it plays to determine how you want to progress it.

[Ranor95]

Ok, first of all you need to round up that CHA. It's killing me :D. I think you absolutely need to get level 8 Paladin for ASI because otherwise you are little of a mess when it comes to stats. Normally I would say 7/13 or 6/14 but here we need that ASI progress untouched.

Solution is level 8: +2 CHA for CHA 19 and them level 12 War Caster. This gives you +4 Aura at level 8 and War Caster at level 12 (adv on conc saves). Good option but you will be stuck with that 19 CHA till level 16.



IN SHORT:

STR 16, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 17:
Level 8: +2 CHA. CHA: 19
Level 12: War Caster
Level 16: Actor feat. CHA 20

You can take first War Caster, but I strongly recommend taking +2 CHA first for 19 CHA and +4 to Aura and Spell DCs. CHA is bread n butter for Sorcadin.

Summary:

This is imo best what you can do to optimize at this point and get at least that +4 to Saves from Aura.

And so I recommend 8/12 split for Paladin Sorcerer. Don't worry about level 9 Paladin spells, you can get a lot of them later from Divine Soul Sorcerer, which is what I would recommend for you.

Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately it's just a result of playing a race with no CHA bonus at all. If I was dragonborn I'd already be 18. But it at least means my STR is decent out of the gate, which I find probably matters more early on. The 19 CHA will torture me but maybe we'll find an item or buff that just nudges me over by then.

[Ranor95]

So I actually looked into it and decided I'd like to go for the Divine Soul origin. There's plenty of Cleric spells that would be incredibly useful, even just the cantrips alone. And taking enough levels in Sorc would then get me access to some of the key paladin spells I might miss.

Spells-wise I was thinking the following:

Lv1:

For cantrips I could take Green Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Guidance and Thaumaturgy. Two to help greatly in combat, two to assist with social or out of combat scenarios.
For spells I could take Shield and either Fog Cloud or something else. Shield is... well, it's Shield. Then something else that's very beneficial to the group. As mentioned earlier while damage is -nice- it's not going to be my focus, tanking, buffing and debuffing is more than anything else.

I feel the above would give me a strong lv1 as a sorc to make it worth yielding a level in paladin. But I am open to alternative suggestions or ideas for the later levels. With Divine Soul I can take Cleric Spells in place of Sorcerer spells which is far better than I initially thought. Stuff like Spiritual Weapon or Guardians would both be very helpful for example.

[Willie the Duck]

Although I would definitely get to 7 in paladin eventually, I might consider taking the first level of sorcerer any time it makes sense thematically, or (for mechanistic reasons) when you'd just found it really sucking not to have had a ranged cantrip. Assuming you aren't a dexadin, you are probably chucking javelins, which really starts to be sub-par after a while.

Regardless, as to when, there's never a 'good time.' Although the designers didn't make all multiclassings equal (with sorcadins near the top), they did do a good job of making the opportunity cost very real: if you dip at level3 (or 7) you lose out on an ASI, if you dip out at level 4 you miss extra attack, etc. etc. etc. Likewise, putting any of those off for a level will make you second guess yourself. That's why I really think you should choose to do so when right thematically.

As to how much, it depends on what you want to play, and your DM/game. Unless your DM is soft on the 15 minute workday, the more levels of paladin you have, the more martial you will be (plus, it sounds like you're not dipping sorcerer just for additional smite slots). Do you want 3rd level sorc spells? 4th? more? The farther you go down that line, the more of a caster you will be. If you just want to dip 3 levels, that's not a bad choice (mind you, the amount of metamagic you get as a sorcerer3 is not much, and converting spells to more sorcery points is not efficient).

[Guy Lombard-O]

For cantrips I could take Green Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Guidance and Thaumaturgy. Two to help greatly in combat, two to assist with social or out of combat scenarios.

Huh? I missed something. GFB and....?

[Willie the Duck]

For cantrips I could take Green Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Guidance and Thaumaturgy. Two to help greatly in combat


Huh? I missed something. GFB and....?

Yeah, what's the other combat-helpful cantrip?
Also, just to double check, you are aware that GFB does not mix with extra attack, correct?

[Ranor95]

Yeah, what's the other combat-helpful cantrip?
Also, just to double check, you are aware that GFB does not mix with extra attack, correct?


Huh? I missed something. GFB and....?

I know, as it's a spell rather than an attack. I just saw GFB being recommended a lot. I suppose the idea is it's guaranteed damage on a second nearby target. EG: Slap the low AC guy and deal some damage to the high AC guy nearby. Might be very helpful if my STR isn't going to go up much if at all.

And sorry, got a bit muddled. I meant to say GFB, Booming Blade, Guidance and either minor illusion or pred. Though I could leave BB until I get War Caster. I'm not sure what other stand out cantrips or lv1 spells there are that suit a Sorcadin that also has access to cleric spells. Most guides I've found don't mention Divine Soul and instead refer to Favoured Soul, which had different aspects to it and definitely had issues with it's lv1 and lv6 stuff being obtained by the Paladin already.

[Guy Lombard-O]

And sorry, got a bit muddled. I meant to say GFB, Booming Blade, Guidance and either minor illusion or pred.

Not sure you really need to take both BB & GFB. They're both decent picks, but you if you have a decent Cha then you might want to pick just one and select a ranged attack cantrip like Fire Bolt or Chill Touch. You haven't mentioned (I think?) whether you have a decent ranged weapon attack, but paladins typically don't so a range cantrip is nice to have for those times you can't close to melee quickly.

[Willie the Duck]

How about a ranged attack?

[Corran]

Most guides I've found don't mention Divine Soul and instead refer to Favoured Soul, which had different aspects to it and definitely had issues with it's lv1 and lv6 stuff being obtained by the Paladin already.
Have a look at the cleric guides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491). Clerics are gishes too, so spell evaluation is not dramatically different. You have to pick spells than prepare, and that certainly makes a difference, in that you must be very picky about what spells to learn, but at the very least, looking at some cleric guides will give you a better starting idea about which spells you might want and which you want to avoid.


How about a ranged attack?
Seconded.

[Ranor95]

Did a bit more reading on cleric stuff, and I've settled on the following spells for a lv1 Sorc/Divine.

Booming Blade (Even without War Caster, forcing the enemy to choose between staying still or eating damage is a good thing)
Guidance (Ability check buff on a cantrip is great!)
Minor illusion (It's free illusions!)
Toll the Dead (Pretty hefty chunk of ranged damage that I can spam, only issue is it's save or nothing. Also the necromancy aspect doesn't suit my character well. May replace with something like Firebolt or Ray of Frost).

Shield (+5 AC on reaction, yes please!)
Guiding Bolt (I had to check if I was reading right. 4d6 ranged attack and an advantage on the next attack? That's pretty damn good for something only using a first level slot! It's like a ranged smite!)

Other choices could include Absorb Elements, Sanctuary and the like for even more "NOBODY IS BLEEDING EXCEPT YOU" capability.

I've fiddled a bit with the build in DnD Beyond, and I think I'd be more comfortable taking Sorc at lv1 after getting my second ASI to get CHA to 19. Then nudge Sorc up to 4 and take war caster.

Alternatively If I held off just a bit longer and got Paladin to 9 I'd also get my oath spells: Plant Growth and Protection from Energy. After that it's not until 11 that I get anything of note (IMproved smites). All in all, currently thinking Paladin up to 9, Sorc to 4, Pal to 11, then Sorc for the last few levels! So an 11/9 build in all.

[Ranor95]

Update: So in our last session the DM gave everyone a +1 in any attribute they saw fit! I suspect he noticed we were all sitting on odd numbers lol.

Anyway, now at 18 CHA it is feasible for me to take War Caster at 8 instead, immediately benefiting me at 9 when I take my first level in Sorc!

[Mitsu]

Update: So in our last session the DM gave everyone a +1 in any attribute they saw fit! I suspect he noticed we were all sitting on odd numbers lol.

Anyway, now at 18 CHA it is feasible for me to take War Caster at 8 instead, immediately benefiting me at 9 when I take my first level in Sorc!

Nice, it makes things simple. War Caster level 8, +2 CHA next and you are done with required stuff. After that you can take what you like. I would chose mostly between: Shield Master, RES (CON), Inspiring Leader and Blade Mastery (if UA allowed). Mounted Combatant is also great but without Greater Steed it requires more hassle to make basic Steed Worth to bring into battle.

[jdolch]

As usual people are suffering from severe Tunnelvision (not a critique, just a fact). The simple truth is that you can only make a decision if you really go ahead and write down everything you would get at every level. Look it over, compare it and then make a decision. Like this: (Work in Progress for my Paladin-Sorcerer-Hexblade Decision)

https://i.imgur.com/iCFhsiY.png

Now you can see where you would be at every level. And especially if you play a campaign like Curse of Strahd, you know that you have to face Strahd after level 10 or maybe 11. And now you can see exactly what you would have to work with if you choose this or that path.

It's hard work but it's the only way you can really weigh all the pros and cons. Otherwise you end up prioritizing the wrong things.

e.g:

This is kinda one of the things I'm yet to fully to understand with multiclassing. If you're gonna go to lvl 7 (or 3/11 etc), is there any negative heading to lvl 8, or relative ,to get your next stat boost/feat?
It just seems that getting the boost, unless there's a pretty amazing skill you're foregoing, would be more beneficial?

Choosing whether to multiclass, when to multiclass and what to multiclass isn't about the next level. It's about the whole progression.