Lore Bard and Shadow or Draconic Sorc level mix?

[ZorroGames]

Way out of my depth on this question not having played Bard (on list of “soon”) or Sorcerer (on list of “not quite so soon”) unlike Fighter, Ranger, Wizard (“Done”) or Druid (“Never”) so punting to this forum, with reservations.

Player read PeteNutButter guide and asked “... after Lore Bard 6+/Sorc 4+... how much plus of each?”

FIIK!

12/8? 14/6? 8/12? 10/10? Other?

Will pass on answers to player.

[Keravath]

What does the player want out of the multiclass?

Bard and sorcerer use the same casting stat so they synergize that way. They are also both full casters so they will get level 9 spell slots. However, if you take more than 3 levels in each the character will never have 9th level spells ... just the slots. This may be a consideration if the character will ever get to high level.

What does the sorcerer offer the bard:
- additional cantrips - especially ones that do more damage than vicious mockery
- access to a different spell list (thought there is some overlap)
- access to meta-magic
- sorcerer type abilities (120' darkvision for shadow, cleric spell list + 2d4 to a to hit or save once a short rest for divine soul, base AC 13+dex and 1hp/sorc level for Dragon ...)

What does lore bard offer to the sorcerer:
- bardic inspiration
- jack of all trades/song of rest
- expertise
- a couple more cantrips
- access to a different spell list

I'm not sure I would go beyond 17/3 or 3/17 since otherwise the character loses out on 9th level spells. In addition, the 18th level bard magical secrets lets the bard choose from among all of the most powerful spells in the game from any casting class ... so that is hard to give up to.

As a result, if I am going to dip into anything for a lore bard, I tend to lean towards two levels of hexblade warlock rather than sorcerer.

[ZorroGames]

What does the player want out of the multiclass?

Bard and sorcerer use the same casting stat so they synergize that way. They are also both full casters so they will get level 9 spell slots. However, if you take more than 3 levels in each the character will never have 9th level spells ... just the slots. This may be a consideration if the character will ever get to high level.

What does the sorcerer offer the bard:
- additional cantrips - especially ones that do more damage than vicious mockery
- access to a different spell list (thought there is some overlap)
- access to meta-magic
- sorcerer type abilities (120' darkvision for shadow, cleric spell list + 2d4 to a to hit or save once a short rest for divine soul, base AC 13+dex and 1hp/sorc level for Dragon ...)

What does lore bard offer to the sorcerer:
- bardic inspiration
- jack of all trades/song of rest
- expertise
- a couple more cantrips
- access to a different spell list

I'm not sure I would go beyond 17/3 or 3/17 since otherwise the character loses out on 9th level spells. In addition, the 18th level bard magical secrets lets the bard choose from among all of the most powerful spells in the game from any casting class ... so that is hard to give up to.

As a result, if I am going to dip into anything for a lore bard, I tend to lean towards two levels of hexblade warlock rather than sorcerer.

I am just passing on the question. What goals are player’s are not my concern.

Player liked the 6+/4+ split but wanted more.

It is AL so my personal view is character will be retired somewhere in Tier 3. Yet to see Tier 4 character locally in AL. Have yet to see 8th level spell used at all, much less 9th.

My personal AL builds are more oriented at topping off at 16 in theory though highest personal achieved so far (squirrel syndrome I suspect) is 11th. No Tier 4 games scheduled in shops locally that I am aware of except at April 2019 Role Call 2 in my to this date experience. Probably in “invitation only” games in past is my guess. Cannot speak for home brewed gaming where my limited experience was surrogates in TOA.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I am just passing on the question. What goals are player’s are not my concern.

Player liked the 6+/4+ split but wanted more.

Their goals with the character are somewhat important in this instance, though. The entire shtick behind the Lore Bard 6/Sorc build is to grab something interesting with the Lore Bard's magical secrets and be able to apply metamagic to it, but it seem like there'd be a lot given up for it.

I would probably have gone Bard 6+/Sorc 3 if I really had to do this multiclass. I think the Sorc 4 was for the extra sorcerer point and an ASI, but you can still pull some shenanigans with the low cost metamagics with one less level in it.

If they're really set on the 6/4 split to start, I'd take Sorcerer to 6 for Hound of Ill Omen/Elemental Affinity, then choose one or the other to go the rest of the way. You'd max out at 7th level spells, but have full spell slots to burn for sorcerer points to fuel interesting things. Continuing Bard would get you more magical secrets at 10 and 14 to apply metamagics to. Continuing Sorcerer could get you flight or shadow teleporting and the like.

Alternatively, just continue going Bard (Bard 16/Sorcerer 4). You'd lose out on the level 6 Sorcerous Origin, but you'd max out at 8th level spells and get to those higher spells (and secrets) faster.

10/10, 8/12, and 12/8 feel like traps to me. 10/10 gets the level 10 Bard Inspiration/Expertise and Sorcerer metamagic features, but you're capped at level 5 spells, which is a bit of a downer, though upcasting and burning slots for sorcerer points would reduce the sting a bit. 8/12 and 12/8 gets you 6th level spells and an extra ASI, which feels like a better deal, but you lose out on some features.

[sophontteks]

I'd play a bard/ sorcerer 3 for subtle spell, allowing my bard to cast spells in public without being noticed. It'd make for quite a powerful character outside combat. One who could probably end many encounters without even rolling initiative.

Without a clear intent, like picking up subtle spell to combo with bard charm spells, I think the multiclass is generally weaker then a pure bard or pure sorcerer. They both get really good stuff mid-game to late game.

[Keravath]

I am just passing on the question. What goals are player’s are not my concern.

Player liked the 6+/4+ split but wanted more.

It is AL so my personal view is character will be retired somewhere in Tier 3. Yet to see Tier 4 character locally in AL. Have yet to see 8th level spell used at all, much less 9th.

My personal AL builds are more oriented at topping off at 16 in theory though highest personal achieved so far (squirrel syndrome I suspect) is 11th. No Tier 4 games scheduled in shops locally that I am aware of except at April 2019 Role Call 2 in my to this date experience. Probably in “invitation only” games in past is my guess. Cannot speak for home brewed gaming where my limited experience was surrogates in TOA.

You may find that once there are enough characters that have hit tier 4 that more tier 4 will be played. It can often be a supply and demand issue though it may also depend on having DMs comfortable with running tier 4.

My local FLGS runs games from tier 1 through 4 and there are quite a few folks with multiple tier 4 characters (some at level 20). The tier 4 games are less common though just because there are more characters in the lower tiers and there are only so many games that can be run. A typical evening will have 2 to 3 tables, usually each is a different tier.

Tier 4 also gets into situations like folks casting Wish and bringing their simulacrums along among other high level spell effects and abilities which can make the gaming experience quite different from the lower tiers.

Conventions and other events can also be an opportunity for tier 4 play if there are opportunities either in your area or when traveling.

Personally, the highest level AL character I have so far is 12th just because it takes a lot of sessions of play to level up.

Level 1-5 = 4 sessions
Level 6-11 = 12 sessions
Level 12-17 = 12 sessions
Level 18-20 = 6 sessions

34 sessions at once a week means that it takes more than 7 months playing every week to level a character that far. If there is organized play every week of the appropriate tier, if real life doesn't interfere and if the player doesn't decide to switch up characters.

[Citan]

Hi all!
First...


10/10, 8/12, and 12/8 feel like traps to me. 10/10 gets the level 10 Bard College and Sorcerous Origin features, but you're capped at level 5 spells, which is a bit of a downer, though upcasting and burning slots for sorcerer points would reduce the sting a bit. 8/12 and 12/8 gets you 6th level spells and an extra ASI, which feels like a better deal, but you lose out on some features.
I strongly disagree here.

Sure, you are limiting yourself to 5th level spells forever. That is a very big deal.
But Bard gets archetype feature and bardic inspiration improvements along with Expertise and Magic Secrets. Sorcerer get a 3rd metamagic.
Those are big deals.

For example, putting aside UA archetypes that would make it even better...
Valor Bard 10 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 10: first aim for Bard 3 / Sorcerer 3, then Bard 10, then Sorcerer.
You are a crazy house of buffs (Extended Aid, Extended upcast Invisibility, then Circle of Power or Healing Spirit), you can hold frontline extremely easily (Expertise in Athletics to grapple guys), outside of combat you can Subtle cast many spells, and later you can either pick Quicken, Twin or Careful depending on taste.
You also get Slow, Counterspell, Dispel Magic and Spirit Guardians for fight, Raise Dead for heal.

Whispers Bard / Shadow Sorcerer: same progression. pick Mirror Image and Enhance Ability, grab Expertise in Perception and Stealth, buff yourself with Pass Without Trace to get perfect hiding place then use arrows using your extra damage. Or go into melee, with Mage Armor and Mirror Image, unleashing Booming Blade + Shadow Blade + Whispers bonus damage. Or use Shadow Hound to make a Bestow Curse stick so a later Blindness/Slow/Hold Person or Monster lasts more rounds reliably.

Swords Bard 10 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 10: Bard 3 / Sorcerer 5 first, then Bard 5 for short-rest die, then Sorcerer 10. Keep Mirror Image and Spirit Guardians while you hack away, using otherwise Quickened, Careful and Subtle.

Lore Bard 10 / Draconic Sorcerer 10: Distant, Empowered, Careful (RAW one) will come in handy to land spells like Stinking Cloud, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball.

Are these the "best" splits? Probably not. Are they great splits? I argue the affirmative for the first two examples without any hesitation. :) The other two ones's value depend more on how you actually build them in terms of spells and feats choices.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Are these the "best" splits? Probably not. Are they great splits? I argue the affirmative for the first two examples without any hesitation. :) The other two ones's value depend more on how you actually build them in terms of spells and feats choices.

Well, seeing as they were specifically looking for Lore Bard/Shadow or Drac splits, the first few don't matter in this context, though they're interesting.

You're right in that they might be better than 8/12 or 12/8. It depends on how much you value the extra ASI and 6th level spells against either one more Metamagic and 2 more sorc points, or expertise/higher inspiration die/magical secrets (might be the hard pill to swallow). If I had to, I'd probably rank it Lore Bard 12/Sorcerer 8 > Lore 10/Sorcerer 10 > Lore 8/Sorc 12.

Regardless, I still think all of them might be a bit of a trap, seeing as you can get the same effects in most of your examples with a much smaller dip in the classes, either choosing to go Lore 14/Sorc 6 if you want to be more of a Bard and nabbing magical secrets to shore up possible missed spells from Sorc you might want, or Sorc 14/Lore 6 if you're happy with you level 6 stolen secrets and want more metamagics/sorcerer points and either bonus action shadow teleporting or concentration free flying.

I still feel that Lore Bard 17/Sorc 3 is better deal in the long run.

To be honest, though, if you don't expect the game to go past level 12 or so, they'll probably be perfectly happy with Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 6 to get both of the archetype bonuses, though it'll cost them an ASI.

[Citan]

Well, seeing as they were specifically looking for Lore Bard/Shadow or Drac splits, the first few don't matter in this context, though they're interesting.

You're right in that they might be better than 8/12 or 12/8. It depends on how much you value the extra ASI and 6th level spells against either one more Metamagic and 2 more sorc points, or expertise/higher inspiration die/magical secrets (might be the hard pill to swallow). If I had to, I'd probably rank it Lore Bard 12/Sorcerer 8 > Lore 10/Sorcerer 10 > Lore 8/Sorc 12.

Regardless, I still think all of them might be a bit of a trap, seeing as you can get the same effects in most of your examples with a much smaller dip in the classes, either choosing to go Lore 14/Sorc 6 if you want to be more of a Bard and nabbing magical secrets to shore up possible missed spells from Sorc you might want, or Sorc 14/Lore 6 if you're happy with you level 6 stolen secrets and want more metamagics/sorcerer points and either bonus action shadow teleporting or concentration free flying.

I still feel that Lore Bard 17/Sorc 3 is better deal in the long run.

To be honest, though, if you don't expect the game to go past level 12 or so, they'll probably be perfectly happy with Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 6 to get both of the archetype bonuses, though it'll cost them an ASI.
Oups, didn't notice OP was set on archetypes already. My bad.

Agreed that a good chunk of goodness doesn't need even split, that's why I said they were usually not the best split.

On that 17/3 split though... I'd be glad I chose this until I'm Bard 15 / Sorcerer 3. But then I'll start wondering if, even if those metamagic were so extra good and so useful until now, it was really worth not getting Wish and another 9th level spell through Magic Secrets. ^^

In other words, I'd personally have a very different opinion as to what split is best depending on the ceiling level someone is aiming for. If 18-20 is a thing, it changes view drastically imo. ^^

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

In other words, I'd personally have a very different opinion as to what split is best depending on the ceiling level someone is aiming for. If 18-20 is a thing, it changes view drastically imo. ^^

This is very true. I've noticed that regret for big dips is more apparent the higher the level the campaign goes. Especially for spellcasters.

It's a weird balance between having cool abilities at lower levels that come online quick, and having top level abilities in higher campaigns that most people never reach.