strength vs magic

[berserker7878]

My Dm often tells me that the characters are subject to the laws of physics, and that suddenly my character can not be stronger than that.
I'm talking about physical powers, lift, pull etc.

I have a goliath with 20 forcibly.
I can only wear, lift etc. + -600 KG
we are lv 10 each and I find it absurd that the characters related to the force are super weak compared to the magic.

example.

Goliath lv 10; 20 in force can not lift a stone of 1 ton
(I count as a larger size to carry lift and pull)

a magician with a weak spell can retract, sent to another dimension etc. that same rock

DD is a magical world, ok, but the force can also be magical, I'm not talking about cutting mountains, lifting a continent, but often the force is much weaker than magic, I do not find it normal.

The dm says ' of you have a big strength, you can break wall etc.. and the wiazrd all the time reduce, break big stone'

in lv 10 the dm says ' roll a die for pull a cow...' please im lv 10 it's just a cow

is it me? is this normal?

[Unoriginal]

Spells have limitations, even when you're level 10.

[DeTess]

It's not unusual. There's unfortunately a bit of a divide between what martials and what casters can do, though it's already far smaller in 5e than in previous editions. That having been said, if your DM allows the casters to do things just because they're magical (what spells are they using to break rocks or send them to other dimensions?), he should do the same for the martials. That having been said, it might be worth while to remind your DM just how much your character can lift. A small cow, for example, could easily fall below your 600 kg limit, and therefore require no check.

[gkathellar]

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[berserker7878]

It's not unusual. There's unfortunately a bit of a divide between what martials and what casters can do, though it's already far smaller in 5e than in previous editions. That having been said, if your DM allows the casters to do things just because they're magical (what spells are they using to break rocks or send them to other dimensions?), he should do the same for the martials. That having been said, it might be worth while to remind your DM just how much your character can lift. A small cow, for example, could easily fall below your 600 kg limit, and therefore require no check.

I'm talking more about how easy it is to change objects, be it size, weight or anything, while martial artists can do 200 damage in one turn but not able to lift a rock? I do not know I find this system inconsistent.

the rogue has learned the spell enlargement-shrinking and it does not use it even abusively, but sometimes I have the impression that the magicians are more in fashion, we do not care it's magic.

and that we close to the body are subject to the true laws, gravity, weight, etc.

I do not even want to break the game, but feel less the feeling of 'you do monstrous damage in combat, so I punish you in other activities'

[berserker7878]

Spells have limitations, even when you're level 10.

yes i'm ok with this but seriously, the magic spell do big thing, change weight, tall, small etc..

often redefines the laws that exist (weight, size, etc.)

to extrapolate, at level 20 the mages can make wish, but melee can not cut a piece of mountains?

Ok, melee can do 250 damages, cut off dragon heads, but got out of the fight, they are limited

[JackPhoenix]

If I've deciphered your posts correctly, I suggest reading the rules and then showing them to your GM. Str 20 Goliath can lift, drag or push 1200 lb at the cost of being slowed to 5' speed. That's more than double the world's weightlifting record, according to wikipedia. They can carry up to 600 lb... still a bit more than the weightlifting record...without being encumbered.

And as for dragging cows around, just grapple it and bring it with you anywhere you want to. Grappling something halves your movement speed, but it's got no weight limit. 5000 lb (3.5 number, no value given in 5e) iron golem? No problem!

And that rogue? He can cast Enlarge/Reduce 3 times per day, at the cost of not being able to use any other level 2 spell. You can abuse the poor cow the whole day.

[Tanarii]

And as for dragging cows around, just grapple it and bring it with you anywhere you want to. Grappling something halves your movement speed, but it's got no weight limit. 5000 lb (3.5 number, no value given in 5e) iron golem? No problem!Grappling doesn't have an exception to the normal weight / drag limits.

[JackPhoenix]

Grappling doesn't have an exception to the normal weight / drag limits.

It does, on account of dev laziness. It only cares about size, not weight (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/18/is-pushingdragging-a-grappled-creature-subject-to-the-carrying-capacity-rules/).

[Tanarii]

It does, on account of dev laziness. It only cares about size, not weight (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/18/is-pushingdragging-a-grappled-creature-subject-to-the-carrying-capacity-rules/).
Eh. That's a good tweet to ignore. Mainly because it doesn't line up with RAW, which doesn't provide any exception. It's some good insight into their RAI though.

[Unoriginal]

Grappling doesn't have an exception to the normal weight / drag limits.


It does, on account of dev laziness. It only cares about size, not weight (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/18/is-pushingdragging-a-grappled-creature-subject-to-the-carrying-capacity-rules/).

TBF, it makes sense, dragging someone who's conscious just require you to make them walk with you, which can be a struggle but is far easier than trying to lift someone.

See the difference between supporting someone who can stand on their feet vs trying to move someone who is out cold.

Also laziness has a negative connotation. Not bogging down your game with useless or near useless numbers is being efficient.


Eh. That's a good tweet to ignore. Mainly because it doesn't line up with RAW, which doesn't provide any exception. It's some good insight into their RAI though.

It perfectly lines up with RAW.

You can search all the 5e books, at no point do they mention that the weight of PCs or NPCs being grappled matters.

You can ignore the tweet if you want, but please don't claim it's RAW to do so, when it's not.

[Keravath]

If I've deciphered your posts correctly, I suggest reading the rules and then showing them to your GM. Str 20 Goliath can lift, drag or push 1200 lb at the cost of being slowed to 5' speed. That's more than double the world's weightlifting record, according to wikipedia. They can carry up to 600 lb... still a bit more than the weightlifting record...without being encumbered.

And as for dragging cows around, just grapple it and bring it with you anywhere you want to. Grappling something halves your movement speed, but it's got no weight limit. 5000 lb (3.5 number, no value given in 5e) iron golem? No problem!

And that rogue? He can cast Enlarge/Reduce 3 times per day, at the cost of not being able to use any other level 2 spell. You can abuse the poor cow the whole day.

His units were kilograms so he actually agrees with your numbers.

I think he is complaining that spells are potentially more powerful and versatile than his character's strength score. Considering that the strength is permanent, all day, every day and spells are in limited supply, that seems hardly surprising.

However, spells aren't that much better.

The 5th level spell telekinesis is limited to 1000lbs or less than 500kgs. The Goliath with 20 str can lift more.

Tensor's floating disk can carry 500lbs (~220kgs) which is also less than the Goliath can carry but it is only a first level spell ... and the disk can't pick anything up.

Bigby's Hand has a strength of 26 so it CAN hold and carry more than the Goliath. However, it expends a 5th level spell slot and only lasts a minute.

So the only one that can reliably do more than the 20 str goliath is Bigby's hand and it can only do so for a minute at the cost of a 5th level slot while the goliath can lift things all day.

Yes, spells can provide greater flexibility, versatility and capability than a high stat but considering how limited spells usually are in terms of time and the fact that they cost a spell slot, I would say that they seem pretty even to me. Yes the wizard will be able to cast a spell to outperform the Goliath for a minute a couple of times a day. But if I need someone to carry the loot, the Goliath wins every time.

[Man_Over_Game]

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Heh, I was just about to say that the DM is probably a 3.5 veteran or something.

Tell your DM that not everything non-magical is non-supernatural.

My Eagle Totem Barbarian can FLY. My Open Hand Monk can push a creature of any size with a punch and his MIND. My Rogue can throw a dagger at a Dragon and deal as much damage as 4 angry Barbarians with Great Axes. My Fighter can shoot and reload a crossbow 5 times in 6 seconds.

None of these things are "magic". They're Supernatural. I'd expect nothing short of Supernatural when dealing with the descendant of a friggin' giant.

[dejarnjc]

If I've deciphered your posts correctly, I suggest reading the rules and then showing them to your GM. Str 20 Goliath can lift, drag or push 1200 lb at the cost of being slowed to 5' speed. That's more than double the world's weightlifting record, according to wikipedia. They can carry up to 600 lb... still a bit more than the weightlifting record...without being encumbered.

And as for dragging cows around, just grapple it and bring it with you anywhere you want to. Grappling something halves your movement speed, but it's got no weight limit. 5000 lb (3.5 number, no value given in 5e) iron golem? No problem!

And that rogue? He can cast Enlarge/Reduce 3 times per day, at the cost of not being able to use any other level 2 spell. You can abuse the poor cow the whole day.

Out of curiosity I looked up the weight of a cow. For males its 2,400lbs. For females its 1,600lbs. I assume this is a rough average and that there's a lot of variance out there.

That being said D&D is more like a shounen anime than simulation and one should not be too surprised when the big burly guy to hurl two bovines across his back before leaping 30 feet into the air.

[MrStabby]

Bigby's Hand has a strength of 26 so it CAN hold and carry more than the Goliath. However, it expends a 5th level spell slot and only lasts a minute.

So the only one that can reliably do more than the 20 str goliath is Bigby's hand and it can only do so for a minute at the cost of a 5th level slot while the goliath can lift things all day.

Yes, spells can provide greater flexibility, versatility and capability than a high stat but considering how limited spells usually are in terms of time and the fact that they cost a spell slot, I would say that they seem pretty even to me. Yes the wizard will be able to cast a spell to outperform the Goliath for a minute a couple of times a day. But if I need someone to carry the loot, the Goliath wins every time.

I think this is part of the problem. How many times a day in a campaign is it exciting to be able to lift this much weight? Is it more than the wizard has spell slots or less? This is one thing that the goliath excels at an a wizard does it better. If you could be in the spotlight 5 or 6 times a day for this and the requirements were such that a goliath lifting capacity could do it but not much less then it might be ok...

As for carrying the loot - well if that's your idea of an exciting role in D&D then go for it. Homebrew a mule class whilst you are at it and have fun.

I would contend that the issue isn't that a goliath's strength is objectively less good than a wizard's spells, just that it is less fun at the table. Where extended duration strength matters it tends to be handwaved away into the background and becomes almost passive.

If whenever you need a pinnacle of performance you call the caster it does undermine the other characters. Need to run really fast to get a message through? Better use sending instead. Need to lift the portcullis? Better use bigby's hand as it's stronger than the barbarian. Want to disable the blade trap without being hurt? Well mage hand can just give it a poke whilst the party sits back. Sure the wizard can't do all of this all the time; they need to only do it when it is really important and the focus of the story. Let the non casters handle it when it isn't important. That's what supporting characters are for.

[GlenSmash!]

I think this is part of the problem. How many times a day in a campaign is it exciting to be able to lift this much weight? Is it more than the wizard has spell slots or less? This is one thing that the goliath excels at an a wizard does it better. If you could be in the spotlight 5 or 6 times a day for this and the requirements were such that a goliath lifting capacity could do it but not much less then it might be ok...

As for carrying the loot - well if that's your idea of an exciting role in D&D then go for it. Homebrew a mule class whilst you are at it and have fun.

I would contend that the issue isn't that a goliath's strength is objectively less good than a wizard's spells, just that it is less fun at the table. Where extended duration strength matters it tends to be handwaved away into the background and becomes almost passive.

If whenever you need a pinnacle of performance you call the caster it does undermine the other characters. Need to run really fast to get a message through? Better use sending instead. Need to lift the portcullis? Better use bigby's hand as it's stronger than the barbarian. Want to disable the blade trap without being hurt? Well mage hand can just give it a poke whilst the party sits back. Sure the wizard can't do all of this all the time; they need to only do it when it is really important and the focus of the story. Let the non casters handle it when it isn't important. That's what supporting characters are for.

Hmm that does make me think. I play a lot of Barbarians, and How much I can lift never really comes into play. As far as I know the DM never checks it.

What he does do is call for Strength checks fairly often for things that are extraordinary, and succeeding at those is fun.

[LudicSavant]

is it me? is this normal?

I don't know about whether it's "normal" or not, but it's certainly unreasonable. D&D 5e is rather infamous for having a poor sense of math when it comes to performing physical feats. Take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579786-Are-Cheetahs-not-in-5e&highlight=cheetah) for instance, which includes some discussion about how much things should be able to lift (as well as how fast they should be able to run).

Not to mention...


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[CorporateSlave]

Ok, melee can do 250 damages, cut off dragon heads, but got out of the fight, they are limited

I agree that sometimes DM's make you roll an ability check for something that really should just be manageable for a heroic character (especially outside of combat). Of course, the ability check during combat may just signify your ability to do something in a specific 6 second period while under pressure, with has a chance of failure that, given an hour an no pressure, of course your PC could succeed at eventually.

I'm not sure I follow the complaint exactly though - saying that a fighter, no matter how skilled at combat and physically powerful, simply can't lift a boulder that is too big for him to lift somehow is punishment?

Or is the OP saying that his DM isn't allowing him to lift objects that, per RAW, a PC with his stats should be able to lift, but the DM just finds it "too unrealistic" and so isn't letting him do it?

[MrStabby]

I'm not sure I follow the complaint exactly though - saying that a fighter, no matter how skilled at combat and physically powerful, simply can't lift a boulder that is too big for him to lift somehow is punishment?


I can't speak for the OP but what I find annoying is not that the fighter can't, but that the wizard can. Lifting heavy stuff should, to my eyes, be the domain of the strong PCs. To say that a wizard can lift the heavier object feels like it is stepping on the fighters toes. I do feel there are too many spells that make casters too broad in what they can do very well. If you want to sneak somewhere being able to cast pass without trace or invisibility is better than needing sneaky.

[Man_Over_Game]

I can't speak for the OP but what I find annoying is not that the fighter can't, but that the wizard can. Lifting heavy stuff should, to my eyes, be the domain of the strong PCs. To say that a wizard can lift the heavier object feels like it is stepping on the fighters toes. I do feel there are too many spells that make casters too broad in what they can do very well. If you want to sneak somewhere being able to cast pass without trace or invisibility is better than needing sneaky.

Someone gave a brief description of how to fix this problem, and what fixing it looks like.

Say you have a locked chest. Both the Wizard and the Rogue can unlock that chest.

Later on in the day, there is a boulder that needs to be moved. Both the Fighter and the Wizard can move the boulder.

While the Wizard CAN do both things, he cannot do them consistently, as he'll run out of resources. The problem is, if the Wizard can solve 6 problems out of the day, that means you need double that many problems to solve that the Martials can take care of. In order for the Fighter to feel justified in his choice and feel like a valid participant, he would be needed to lift things more times than the Wizard can afford.

However, placing 7 boulders and 7 locked chests in the way of a party of a Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard, just so that the Wizard isn't the only person solving problems, ends up creating a really ugly and difficult narrative.

Rather than making an abundance of problems, it's best to just improve the importance of being specialized in those skills. Rather than dealing with 7 boulders in a day, make it 2 boulders that would cost the Wizard his highest spell slot but cost the Fighter nothing. Make it so that the Wizard could deal with the locked chest, but he'd have to spend more resources dealing with the traps.

As the Wizard grows in level, his capacity to solve problems also grows (Detect Magic can be expensive as a level 2 spell, but is trivial by the time the Wizard is level 10).

Based on the rate of the Wizard's spells, and based on the growth rate of a standard ability check by a Martial character (Which is roughly +1 per 3 levels), I'd guess skills should be valued at the same rate as DC = 12 + 2 x Spell level.

Which looks like this:


DC 14 = Spell level 1
DC 16 = Spell Level 2
DC 18 = Spell level 3
DC 20 = Spell level 4
DC 22 = Spell level 5
DC 24 = Spell level 6
DC 26 = Spell level 7
DC 28 = Spell level 8
DC 30 = Spell level 9

This would mean that someone that could hit a DC 30 is as effective as a Wish spell. A Barbarian with that kind of Athletics roll might as well be Atlas. A Rogue with that kind of stealth is pretty much invisible to even creatures that don't have eyes.

[Tanarii]

It perfectly lines up with RAW.

You can search all the 5e books, at no point do they mention that the weight of PCs or NPCs being grappled matters.

You can ignore the tweet if you want, but please don't claim it's RAW to do so, when it's not.
RAW is you're limited in the weight you can drag. No exception is made for dragging creatures under the grappling rules.

[Unoriginal]

RAW is you're limited in the weight you can drag. No exception is made for dragging creatures under the grappling rules.

Moving a grappled creature =/= dragging.

[MrStabby]

It seems like I didn't explain myself so well.

The issue isn't a wizard (Or other magic user) taking centre stage all the time. It is them doing it when it is really important. If you have a useful strength check then leave it to the fighter. If the party has an absolutely critical strength check then the wizard gets his hand out and does it.

The wizard takes the spotlight whenever the stakes are high and success is critical. Others can help the wizard conserve resources by stepping up when it doesn't matter so much.

Sure it forces the fighter to take more of a role in the next fight to compensate for the spell slot but the fighter missed their chance to shine but everyone else in the party steps up.

If bigby's hand was strength 18 then less of an issue. Someone else who is strong can be best placed to take the strength check.

[NaughtyTiger]

TBF, it makes sense, dragging someone who's conscious just require you to make them walk with you, which can be a struggle but is far easier than trying to lift someone.

See the difference between supporting someone who can stand on their feet vs trying to move someone who is out cold.


TBF, it makes no sense, forcibly dragging someone who's conscious require you to make them walk with you while resisting you, and is far tougher than trying to lift someone.

See the difference between trying to move someone who is actively resisting being forcibly moved vs trying to move someone who is out cold


Moving a grappled creature =/= dragging.
Agreed. Moving a grappled creature == dragging+active resistance

[Sigreid]

So here's my take on it. Just my take, consider or not as you will.

1. Yes, magic can warp reality a limited number of times per day. If it couldn't it wouldn't be magic.

2. Sometimes some people want to play the guy who is not magic in a heavily magic world. Like being Hawkeye on the Avengers. Some of the classes/subclassess are designed to be cool without bending reality too much because if they bend reality too much it's just magic again.

Sometimes it's fun to be the not magic guy struggling against the magical world.

[GlenSmash!]

TBF, it makes no sense, forcibly dragging someone who's conscious require you to make them walk with you while resisting you, and is far tougher than trying to lift someone.

Not necessarily. Many martial arts techniques teach you to use one persons movements against them. In essence directing their momentum in the direction you want.

For example if you are grabbing on to someone and knock them on their back, when they try to stand up you can in essence turn their motion of putting their foot under them into a kick that propels them laterally, making it easier to move them laterally without having to drag their full weight.

Likewise I was watching an Alligator rescue TV program where the handlers were dragging a very large alligator up a riverback, while the alligator was rolling. By rolling the gator actually reduced the friction between it and the ground making it easier to drag. Had it been limp it would have been more difficult to move 800+ pounds. Of course if it knew how to dig in its claws and directly oppose the direction the handlers were dragging it it would have been even harder to move than if it had been limp. But the gator's go to move is to roll.

Simply put not every creature knows who to resist forced movement as well as a mule or dog that doesn't want to move.

[NaughtyTiger]

Not necessarily. Many martial arts techniques teach you to use one persons movements against them. In essence directing their momentum in the direction you want.


You are talking about advanced training and martial arts against someone without such training. I was speaking about folks with similar training/abilities.
Considering that 5e grappling can be done by anyone (commoner)/anything without training or martial arts, you are providing an unfair comparison.


Far more reasonable to state parallels to reality should not be applied to 5e grappling.

[Unoriginal]

TBF, it makes no sense, forcibly dragging someone who's conscious require you to make them walk with you while resisting you, and is far tougher than trying to lift someone.

Yeah, no.

People are heavy. Lifting someone is more difficult than making someone move with them resisting, for the simple reason that if you try to make someone move against their wills, they still have their body weight resting on their legs, which means they can be moved just by shifting their balance or by pushing/pulling them and letting their legs do their work (while they attempt to resist, which doesn't mean they succeed), while lifting someone requires the lifter to carry another person's weight on top of theirs (sometime helped by dragging them on the floor, but it's still harder).

There's a reason why martial arts have a lot of techniques to grab the opponent and make them move, and very few that are just "lift the opponent". Even in Sumo, where lifting your opponent is a legitimate move, it's only done through a short distance (if done at all) and it's just one move among a whole arsenal of shoves, pushes and other ways to make your opponent's momentum shift to make them move the direction you want. It's certainly possible to lift a foe, but it's just not practical due to the effort and the relatively vulnerable position it leaves you in.

Characters in fiction who DO just lift their enemies generally do so to show off their enormous strength compared to their opponent's, like the famous end to the Batman vs Bane confrontation:

https://pm1.narvii.com/5979/7baf5609f39584e4e82cc18a9ee3afccbe00cb0c_hq.jpg



See the difference between trying to move someone who is actively resisting being forcibly moved vs trying to move someone who is out cold

Yes. The difference is that moving someone who is actively resisting requires FAR less strength than moving someone who is out cold, once you've subdued their attempt at breaking from the grapple.




Agreed. Moving a grappled creature =/= dragging+active resistance

No, you're not dragging them. You're making them move with you.


You are talking about advanced training and martial arts against someone without such training. I was speaking about folks with similar training/abilities.
Considering that 5e grappling can be done by anyone (commoner)/anything without training or martial arts, you are providing an unfair comparison.

Yeah, because the fact that anyone can attempt it means that everyone has the same training and/or abilities.

It's why a Commoner has +0 to the attempt while a Fighter with proficiency in Athletics can have a +5 at it at lvl 1, and will probably have a +9 at lvl 10.

So unfair a comparison.

[Sigreid]

It's also fairly simple to make someone move where you want them to go by using pain to make it their best option.

[NaughtyTiger]

Yeah, no.

Yeah, because the fact that anyone can attempt it means that everyone has the same training and/or abilities.

It's why a Commoner has +0 to the attempt while a Fighter with proficiency in Athletics can have a +5 at it at lvl 1, and will probably have a +9 at lvl 10.

So unfair a comparison.

Let's have the discussion as a fair comparison, shall we?

A level 10 gnomish fighter, with +9 athlethics vs a level 10 goliath fighter with +9 athlethics... equally matched (wtf?), but because of 1 bad roll, the gnome can manuever the goliath around...
sorry, no. i don't believe a martial artist little person can drag a sumo around...


Yes. The difference is that moving someone who is actively resisting requires FAR less strength than moving someone who is out cold, once you've subdued their attempt at breaking from the grapple
No, you're not dragging them. You're making them move with you.

Fire figthers and lifeguards much prefer an unconsciouns person vs a panicked concious person...


Again, real life is a poor parallel for 5e anything

[Unoriginal]

Let's have the discussion as a fair comparison, shall we?

A level 10 gnomish fighter, with +9 athlethics vs a level 10 goliath fighter with +9 athlethics... equally matched (wtf?), but because of 1 bad roll, the gnome can manuever the goliath around...

If they're equally matched, they're equally matched. A lvl 10 gnome Fighter with +9 in STR (Athletics) is just as good as grappling as a lvl 10 goliath fighter with +9 in STR (Athletics), and so it makes perfect sense that the one who get the advantage due to the rolls can make the other move.

The goliath's size and bulk gives them several advantages over the gnomes (no penalty for heavy weapons, increased carrying capacity, etc), but those do not apply in pure STR (Athletics) checks nor in the specifics of grappling.




sorry, no. i don't believe a martial artist little person can drag a sumo around...

What you believe is your business. But you're the one arguing that we shouldn't draw parallels between 5e and real life.




Fire figthers and lifeguards much prefer an unconsciouns person vs a panicked concious person...

Because the danger here comes from the environment, and the person risk to hurt themselves in the panic (as well as endangering the rescuers by resisting).

Now ask a cop if they'd rather make a resisting criminal move to the paddy wagon or lift a criminal and carry them to the wagon.

[CorporateSlave]

Fire figthers and lifeguards much prefer an unconsciouns person vs a panicked concious person...


Are you a firefighter and/or lifeguard? Actually, a limp human body as dead weight can be surprisingly tough to drag around. Even a struggling victim is usually easier to move because struggling also involves a tendency to try and maintain one's balance, and if you have a good grip on someone who is struggling, it is rather easy to use some of their momentum to force them to move the direction you want. In 5e "grappling" terms, the creature is still on its feet (unless you have Shoved it prone), and a creature/person on its feet will tend to stagger in the direction of a force applied to them. As a game mechanic, any fight they were putting up was overcome when they lost the Grapple contest. Next turn they can try to resist again. Recall this is just 6 seconds a pop...

PC wins Grapple contest.
PC forces Grappled (and therefore off balance) enemy to stagger 15' in the direction the PC wants.
6 seconds later, enemy can try to regain balance and break free.


The only reason to prefer an unconscious person is as Unoriginal said, due to the physical or environmental threat a struggle could pose. Not the difficulty moving them.

[NaughtyTiger]

Are you a firefighter and/or lifeguard?
...snip
Even a struggling victim is usually easier to move
...snip
The only reason to prefer an unconscious person is as Unoriginal said, due to the physical or environmental threat a struggle could pose. Not the difficulty moving them.

Actually, my brother in law is fire fighter, and damn near all of us in high school were lifeguards (albeit, I never had to perform a rescue)
Your fire fighting/lifeguard experience seems to vastly differ from that of my friends and family.


All of the "real-life" arguments about how a trained martial artist can use locks and holds to control the movement of the victim(?), do not address how you can apply the techniques to control someone's movement without impairing their ability to fight or immobilize their arms.

Reality is a horrible model for 5e. Unoriginal's examples show as much.

That said, my contribution to this has run its course.


The RAW is not explicit enough to rule Tanarii's viewpoint as right or wrong.