Of nets and hand-crossbows

[Inculta]

Hello everyone! I've been reading OFTS comic and this forum on DnD 5e for years and today I've registered to share with you with a vision, that struck me as lightning and made me restless for the whole night, while I was confirming and studying all possible rules in PHB and clariffications in Sage's Advice.

I've started playing AL games recently and all I wanted to do is to make a cool bounty-hunter type character. While deciding on the weaponry, my eyes noticed Net... For a moment I've been in confusion... Ranged Martial Thrown Weapon with 5/15 (always disadvantage on attacks), that deals 0 damage? What nonsence! There must to be a way to use it properly, right?

First, we will be using PHB +1, as AL requires. For +1 we choose Xanathars guide to everything.
Race - Variant Human. Feat: Crossbow Expert
Starting Class: that's a bit complicated. Warrior will get you right into the action from the first level. Ranger, on the other hand, provide you with interesting possibilities later, while being a bit weaker during 1-2 levels, then warrior.
Statring Equipment: AL doesn't allow you to roll starting gold, but it allows you to sell starting equipment. Just don't forget about selling for half-price. So, pick everything most expensive and sell it, or wait for level 2, when you get 75 gold, but all you need to buy: Hand Crossbow, ammunition for it, and Nets.

So, what can our level 1-2 Bobba Net do?
Action: Attack with Net (+2(prof)+3(dex)+2(archery)) if in mellee range of an enemy without disadvantage.
Bonus action: attack with hand-crossbow as allowed by Crossbow Expert with advantage, if net landed on enemy. Moreover, all your party now has advantage on attacks against that enemy, until it is freed. And finnaly, one of the enemies loses it's full action(or one of the attacks) to get out of the net.

In sage's advice it has been clarified, that Attack with net prevents using further attacks during Action it was used in, not during your turn - so, you indeed CAN shoot Hand-Crossbow with bonus action. If you are a warrior, you can use Action Surge and attack again with advantage on the neted enemy, because it grants you another separate Action from the action, during which Net was used.

After that, your actions in subsequent turns vary from DM's rulling.
There can be two outcomes:
1) Your DM allowed you to carry several Nets in "quick-access" and you can keep it going like on the first turn.
2) Your DM didn't allow it or enemy somehow still stuck in the Net. In that case you use your Action to attack with hand-crossbow and bonus action to attack with it again. Both times with advantage. Sage's Advice also referes to this course of action as correct, however Miles mentiones, that he wouldn't allow it personally if he was DM (and he seems to know what's coming next).

During level 3, if you took Ranger path you will be able to choose Gloom Stalker and make THREE attacks during your first turn while using hand-crossbow. However, I advice on spending Bonus Action on Hunter's Mark, as it effectively grants you: 2d6+6(crossbow + dex) +2d6 (mark)+1d8(gloom stalker ability) damage against 3d6+9 +1d8 damage. If you are targeting Boss-like enemy, you better use first one, however, if an enemy is weak, the second option might finish him off.

Level 4 will allow you to take Sharpshooter and add another +10 damage, and advantage from Net will compensate -5 on rolls.

This seems to me very powerful first 4 levels. I believe, that 3d6+9 option is better, then 2d10 (heavy crossbow)+6 as it gives you more chances to crit and average dps is a bit higher.

My questions are:
Is there any way to improve Net-usage beyond level 4?
Is it worth abandoning level 5 extra attack and get some levels in Rogue instead? Because both Assasin and Scout rogue seems to benefit a lot from using net and crossbow, especially with additional sneak-attack damage.

I see this as one of the most powerful playstyle for 1-4 levels, but want to make it go higher levels also.
I've been searching, but couldn't find anything to help it. Dual Wielder was my hope, but it allows attacking with bonus action only for Mellee weapons, so I couldn't find a way to move Net attack away from Action, which can be used for Extra Attack.

I've been searching net (regarding net, huh!) for days, but it seems, that community only came up with the same ideas, as I stated above, I just summarised them into some 1-4 character build for ranger, with fighter alternative. Is there something I am missing?

Will be glad to read your ideas and comments.

P.S. Sorry for mistakes, I am not native english speaker.

[JackPhoenix]

Get someone to cast Haste on you. Haste gives you an action you can use to attack once. Throw your net with that, use your normal action to attack as many times as you can, and you still have the bonus action.
Hex can give the target disadvantage on its Str check to escape.
Disarming Strike from Battlemaster (or Martial Adept feat) allows you to force the victim to drop one object it holds. Use it on enemies armed with slashing weapons to prevent them from destroying the net. Don't forget to take the weapon away with your free object interaction afterwards. Can't do that on the same turn you draw a net, though. You can disarm them with the net throw, but you'll lose the extra damage from superiority die, as net doesn't do any damage on its own.

[nickl_2000]

Also don't forget that Rogue Sneak attack damage and Hunter's mark damage applies to net attack since they are a ranged weapon and with CBE you are not attacking with disadvantage.

[JackPhoenix]

Also don't forget that Rogue Sneak attack damage and Hunter's mark damage applies to net attack since they are a ranged weapon and with CBE you are not attacking with disadvantage.

Net does no damage on its own, so it can't do extra damage from sneak attack or any other source.

[Zalabim]

It doesn't use a hand crossbow (and thus Crossbow Expert) but nets are an eternally handy weapon for a ranger that chooses the beast master archetype, and that combines well with sharpshooter, giving you normal attacks at the 10' or 15' range.

War clerics can also use nets extremely well through War Priest bonus action attacks and Guided Strike to guarantee hits, but most of them use strength (and Heavy Armor) so they ignore nets. Though if you're willing to use Guided Strike, I don't think having a little lower dexterity would really be a problem. It's a nice extra way to help your party in combat outside of your spell slots and concentration.

[nickl_2000]

Net does no damage on its own, so it can't do extra damage from sneak attack or any other source.

Net doesn't need to do damage to apply to sneak attack. Sneak attack requires that you hit with an attack with a finesse or ranged weapon. Same with hunter's mark.

[JackPhoenix]

Net doesn't need to do damage to apply to sneak attack. Sneak attack requires that you hit with an attack with a finesse or ranged weapon. Same with hunter's mark.

Both sneak attack and Hunter's Mark cause *extra* damage. "Extra" means there must be some damage to add on to first.

[NaughtyTiger]

Also don't forget that Rogue Sneak attack damage and Hunter's mark damage applies to net attack since they are a ranged weapon and with CBE you are not attacking with disadvantage.

As JackPhoenix pointed out, the common consensus is that sneak attack/hex/hunter mark don't apply to net attack.
those effects do "extra damage", but since the net doesn't do damage, ...
(i think its a crap decision, but)
Devs have stated this explicitly as RAI

A lot of DMs, especially AL DMs, will scrap the extra damage for net attacks.

[nickl_2000]

Both sneak attack and Hunter's Mark cause *extra* damage. "Extra" means there must be some damage to add on to first.


jack you sniped me.



As JackPhoenix pointed out, the common consensus is that sneak attack/hex/hunter mark don't apply to net attack.
those effects do "extra damage", but since the net doesn't do damage, ...
(i think its a crap decision, but)
Devs have stated this explicitly as RAI

A lot of DMs, especially AL DMs, will scrap the extra damage for net attacks.

Well then, I didn't know that. Thanks for the education (this is honest, no sarcasm intended at all). I think it is a crap decision on RAI part, but luckily I don't play AL so we can do whatever we want.

[Inculta]

Thank you all for answers!

I agree, that Hunter’s Mark and Sneak Attack don’t add damage to net, because, they suppose to add damage of the type, that weapon has, and net doesn’t have any type of damage, so even 100 damage of “none” type equals zero :)

Haste and Battlemaster seem like good solutions, but Warcleric requires rebuilding current character, to much to trade off. Same with beast-master - I prefer Gloom and “solo” character without pets or summons.

Still, do you think it is worth it to not take 5 level for extra Attack and just go straight for multi class?
Ranger 4/rogue 3/fighter 2 for example?

[NaughtyTiger]

Thank you all for answers!

I agree, that Hunter’s Mark and Sneak Attack don’t add damage to net, because, they suppose to add damage of the type, that weapon has, and net doesn’t have any type of damage, so even 100 damage of “none” type equals zero :)

Haste and Battlemaster seem like good solutions, but Warcleric requires rebuilding current character, to much to trade off. Same with beast-master - I prefer Gloom and “solo” character without pets or summons.

Still, do you think it is worth it to not take 5 level for extra Attack and just go straight for multi class?
Ranger 4/rogue 3/fighter 2 for example?

you need extra attack from somewhere, (either ranger or fighter), cuz you will run out of nets at some point.


general question, would most DMs allow ensnaring strike damage on the net?
it specifies the type of damage, and the damage is from vines arising from the spell
provides 2 sources of restrain, and ongoing damage.

[Contrast]

One thing to consider if you're planning on doing this in AL is that with the Season 8 rules gold is now a very finite resource. Nets are 1g a pop and I could see a DM saying that even if they broke out via strength rather than slashing that the net was damaged beyond reuse.

Admittedly not so bad if you're planning on going Dex and don't need to save up for full plate but still.

[Xetheral]

The mending cantrip is invaluable for making your supply of nets last longer. Sometimes they will be incinerated or otherwise totally-destroyed, but usually with some patience you can repair the breaks (one casting per break).

Prestidigitation is great for cleaning your reused nets if you don't want to be carrying around nets that have soaked up blood.

If you don't have Crossbow Expert (or Sharpshooter), Nets are useful when you have a reliable source of advantage to counteract their inherent disadvantage. The kobold's Pack Tactics ability comes to mind, as does the Samauri's Fighting Spirit. A familiar can also be used to generate advantage, although some tables don't like that tactic.

[MaxWilson]

One thing to consider if you're planning on doing this in AL is that with the Season 8 rules gold is now a very finite resource. Nets are 1g a pop and I could see a DM saying that even if they broke out via strength rather than slashing that the net was damaged beyond reuse.

Admittedly not so bad if you're planning on going Dex and don't need to save up for full plate but still.

I don't play AL, but aren't the AL rules just for items that you carry between adventures? Couldn't you go to town and buy some more nets during an adventure with gold you loot from a monster, or something like that? Otherwise that sounds incredibly annoying for anyone who shoots arrows.


If you don't have Crossbow Expert (or Sharpshooter), Nets are useful when you have a reliable source of advantage to counteract their inherent disadvantage. The kobold's Pack Tactics ability comes to mind, as does the Samauri's Fighting Spirit. A familiar can also be used to generate advantage, although some tables don't like that tactic.

Throwing a net on a prone/grappled enemy is also an interesting way to simultaneously make it harder for them to break free (need to break the net and the grapple in one turn) and also negate the disadvantage your ranged buddies would otherwise have against the prone target. Because the target is prone and you're within 5', your net attack is not at disadvantage.

If you have prone-but-not-grappled enemies (e.g. knocked prone by the druid's conjured wolves) you can also likewise throw nets to keep them that way.

Incidentally, skeleton necromancers at arguably the best net-throwers in the game, by proxy.

If you're ruling that you can make more than one attack per turn with a net as long as it's not with the same action, then Eldritch Knight can do something like Booming Blade + War Magic: Net attack, which is pretty neat, especially if you have a way to negate the disadvantage, like Mobile feat and Sharpshooter. (Booming Blade + step back 5', taking no opportunity attack because Mobile, then throw the net without disadvantage because Sharpshooter). It's not something you'd want to do all the time but it's neat to have in your back pocket for a close-quarters battle. You might even then want to Action Surge a couple of Sharpshooter headshots while the enemy is restrained.

[Contrast]

I don't play AL, but aren't the AL rules just for items that you carry between adventures? Couldn't you go to town and buy some more nets during an adventure with gold you loot from a monster, or something like that? Otherwise that sounds incredibly annoying for anyone who shoots arrows.

As of the latest season you don't acquire gold or magic items by looting them from enemies. Instead you earn treasure points which can be spent on purchasing magic items. Gold is given in set amounts when you level up. 75G at levels 2-4, 150G 5-10, 550G 11-16, 5500G 17-20. Any treasure is ignored. You can use mundane equipment you find until the end of the session then it evaporates.

A level 4 character will have earned exactly 225G, for example. Fine if you just want studded leather but somewhat problematic if you're aiming for the better medium or heavy armour. Or just like buying random junk/healing potions (though everyone gets a free healing potion per session so...just don't go down more than once I guess).

[MaxWilson]

As of the latest season you don't acquire gold or magic items by looting them from enemies. Instead you earn treasure points which can be spent on purchasing magic items. Gold is given in set amounts when you level up. 75G at levels 2-4, 150G 5-10, 550G 11-16, 5500G 17-20.

I thought that was only for between adventures. Equipment and gold don't vanish during the adventure, IIRC the XGE rules. If I pick up a hobgoblin's longbow it doesn't evaporate into nothingness; it just gets handwaved away between adventures ("I pawned it for ale money").


A level 5 character will have earned exactly 225G, for example. Fine if you just want studded leather but somewhat problematic if you're aiming for the better medium or heavy armour. Or just like buying random junk/healing potions (though everyone gets a free healing potion per session so...just don't go down more than once I guess).

Or arrows. Unless AL rules let you keep re-using the same 100 arrows forever that you bought with 5 gp at the beginning? They're supposed to break about 50% of the time after you use them, but if you "paid points" for them maybe you get replacements? I dunno. AL is weird.