Rogue archtype Scoundrel

[MThurston]

What do people think about this?

Is it a grappled?

Why use improved weapons?

I do like the fact that clubs can sneak attack with it now.

[Unoriginal]

What do people think about this?

Is it a grappled?

Why use improved weapons?

I do like the fact that clubs can sneak attack with it now.

Think about what? Are you talking about an homebrew Rogue archetype?

[MThurston]

Seen this on my Google feed.

www.gmbinder.com/share/-LZhGVAb1ai6bMMj-XGF

[nickl_2000]

I think it is overpowered personally.


While not wielding a shield, medium armor that you wear no longer has a Dexterity modifier cap when calculating the AC it grants you. - This is pretty broken. Why not just say you get +2 to your AC, because every rogue is going to be wearing a breastplate at 14+ dex to eventually get 19 AC. Why would you wear this over full plate?

-The ability where you can sneak with all simple weapons without two handed/versatile is fine with me. That gives you a few more options, but none are more powerful than the rapier which all rogues get anyways.

-The question for me is why you wouldn't use improvised weapons all the time. There is no real negative as long as you choose one that looks like a club or dagger. There is a solid positive since you get abilities that trigger off of it.

-There are a few ploys I don't like. Smother for one is to much with a rogue expertise in grappling. I don't really like sucker punch either since it is basically a free rogue sneak attack,


For it to be used on my table I would ditch the extra AC from medium armor, drop the smother ability, and nerf the suck punch to not give advantage. Then see how it plays from there.

[NaughtyTiger]

Nice concept, but over powered.

The armor bonus is better than the Medium Armor Master feat, by a lot.
The unarmed combat is strictly better than Monk martial arts (armor and sneak attack)


I like the guile points thing. I like the ploy thing. I like the out of combat bonuses. They should to long rest recharge (cuz sneak attack bonus is so big)
Extra attack may be okay (still seems strong to me given all the front loaded abilities)

[RogueJK]

The armor bonus is better than the Medium Armor Master feat, by a lot.

Yeah, but that's not hard. MAM is one of the weaker feats. You're basically spending an ASI to gain +1 AC and sometimes remove an effective -5 to Stealth while wearing certain armor.

Not worth it, in most cases.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, but that's not hard. MAM is one of the weaker feats. You're basically spending an ASI to gain +1 AC and sometimes remove an effective -5 to Stealth while wearing certain armor.

Not worth it, in most cases.

To be fair, to someone that cares about stealth, that translates to +2 AC.

[JNAProductions]

To be fair, to someone that cares about stealth, that translates to +2 AC.

No, it's +1.

15+3=18.
12+5=17.
18-17=1.

Since Studded Leather is an option, it's really only +1 for an ASI.

And since this lets you hit AC 20 with SAD to spare... On a Rogue, who also gets goodies like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge... Yeah, that bit is pretty damn OP.

Some of the ploys are also overly strong.

[Man_Over_Game]

No, it's +1.

15+3=18.
12+5=17.
18-17=1.

Since Studded Leather is an option, it's really only +1 for an ASI.

And since this lets you hit AC 20 with SAD to spare... On a Rogue, who also gets goodies like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge... Yeah, that bit is pretty damn OP.

Some of the ploys are also overly strong.

I mean, you're describing a Rogue with a maxed out Dexterity. Using something like the standard array, having a +3 - +4 mod would only get you 15 - 16 with Studded Leather, when a +3 with Medium Armor Master would net you 18 AC.

[JNAProductions]

I mean, you're describing a Rogue with a maxed out Dexterity. Using something like the standard array, having a +3 - +4 mod would only get you 15 - 16 with Studded Leather, when a +3 with Medium Armor Master would net you 18 AC.

You were talking about a sneaky character. Sneaky characters want Dexterity, so they can sneak better.

[MThurston]

I am looking at it this way.

Using the buy method for stats the best you can get is a +3 Dex.

So at level 3 you could have 14 A.C. with a +3 from Dex. You are looking at an A.C. of 17. It is only +1 from Studded Leather.

So it's not OP in that respect.

I like the fact all simple weapons with out two handed and versatile are allowed to be used for sneak attack.

Some of the ploys need to be reworded. Giving someone your sneak attack is over the top.

The chock hold should be reworded to keep Mages from using verbal spells unless they break the hold.

It needs a little work but it's a nice thought.

I've been wanting to make a character that uses two clubs but with only the d4 damage that character needs to have sneak attack.

[Arkhios]

Since we're talking about a homebrew that has been judged as overpowered multiple times already, might I suggest an alternative and implore you (all) to take a look at the Thug I've made (found in my sig), and maybe even offer some feedback as well?

[stoutstien]

Since we're talking about a homebrew that has been judged as overpowered multiple times already, might I suggest an alternative and implore you (all) to take a look at the Thug I've made (found in my sig), and maybe even offer some feedback as well?
I was actually about the post your Homebrew on here. Trading sneak attack dice for rides is a great idea

[MThurston]

Thug is OP. Doesn't do any of what this one does.

If you can do a trick every attack, it is OP. If you can do more than one trick per attack then it is crazy OP.

[Arkhios]

Thug is OP. Doesn't do any of what this one does.

If you can do a trick every attack, it is OP. If you can do more than one trick per attack then it is crazy OP.

Granted, I intended to add a clarifying clause you can use only one Dirty Trick per attack (but since you can only make a sneak attack once per turn, I find it's already limiting enough).
I've added "Once per turn, " before "when you would deal sneak attack..." but since I'm on tablet right now, it'll have to wait before I can update the pdf in my google drive.

Besides that, you deal less damage for a small rider and only in melee. Is it really that OP? Or are you just upset that people don't like the Scoundrel as much as you do?)

[MThurston]

Granted, that's an oversight. I intended to add a clause you can use only one Dirty Trick per attack (but since you can only make a sneak attack once per turn, I find it's already limiting enough. Besides, you deal less damage for a small rider. Is it really that OP? Or are you just upset that people don't like the Scoundrel as much as you do?)

A few things.

1. Should use inspiration dice that come back after a short rest.

2. Not sure why this class would act like a large target when grappling.

3. Instead of trying to reword the Hexblade power, why not copy it. Also Hexblade needs to Hex that target. This build can just do it.

4. The mechanics of it doesn't make for fast fights.

"How many did I minus?"

[MThurston]

Thug

Weapon Use
Improved Weapon and simple non heavy, versatile or two handed weapons allow sneak attack dice.

Medium armour Proficiency with no Dex mod cap.

You receive Intimidation as a skill and if you already have the skill take double proficiency.

9th
Stun Attack - Once per short rest the Thug can stun an Opponant for 1 turn.

13th
Stun Attack can be used twice per short rest.

17th
Marked - Roll d4 for how many rounds the target is stunned. Target makes a Con saving throw at the end of their turn vs DC 8 + Dex + Prof to become unstunned.

[Arkhios]

A few things.

1. Should use inspiration dice that come back after a short rest.

2. Not sure why this class would act like a large target when grappling.

3. Instead of trying to reword the Hexblade power, why not copy it. Also Hexblade needs to Hex that target. This build can just do it.

4. The mechanics of it doesn't make for fast fights.

"How many did I minus?"

1. & 3. While I get it why people want to borrow or outright copy features from other classes, I prefer trying new things instead.

2. Thug was modeled with brawny mobsters or security guards in mind, and both walks of life usually refer to people who know how to control their immediate surroundings, and to appear larger than they actually are. Grappling targets into submission is a common tactic for people who might not want to kill everyone.

4. Technically, you need to make the decision what to do before you make any rolls for your turn. In other words, you decide which dirty trick to use, and then prepare to reduce the amount of sneak attack your rogue level would normally allow. How is that different from deciding which spell to cast, for example?


Anyway...the main reason I suggested Thug as an alternative was that you mentioned you wanted to be able to wield clubs and sneak attack with them.

I'm getting a feeling you might be taking this a little too personally, and are trying to undermine the efforts I've put into Thug. I'd like to point out that I didn't make Thug just now as a way to undermine Scoundrel. Also, I said nothing to belittle or criticize Scoundrel myself; I only acknowledged what others had said earlier

[MThurston]

1. & 3. While I get it why people want to borrow or outright copy features from other classes, I prefer trying new things instead.

2. Thug was modeled with brawny mobsters or security guards in mind, and both walks of life usually refer to people who know how to control their immediate surroundings, and to appear larger than they actually are. Grappling targets into submission is a common tactic for people who might not want to kill everyone.

4. Technically, you need to make the decision what to do before you make any rolls for your turn. How is that different from deciding a spell to cast, for example?


Anyway...the main reason I suggested Thug as an alternative was that you mentioned you wanted to be able to wield clubs and sneak attack with them.

I'm getting a feeling you might be taking this a little too personally, and are trying to undermine the efforts I've put into Thug. I'd like to point out that I didn't make Thug just now as a way to undermine Scoundrel. Also, I said nothing to belittle or criticize Scoundrel myself; I only acknowledged what others had said earlier

It looks like you are taking it personally.

Your suggestion didn't talk about using clubs as sneak attack weapons.

It's unlimited use makes it OP.

The not being hit ability a bit much also.

I put a suggestion that took from both.

[Arkhios]

It looks like you are taking it personally.

Your suggestion didn't talk about using clubs as sneak attack weapons.

It's unlimited use makes it OP.

The not being hit ability a bit much also.

I put a suggestion that took from both.

If you would read it more closely, you'd see you're wrong about that.

Thug lets you treat light and one-handed melee weapons you're proficient with as if they had the finesse property. The limiting factor here is that you need to be proficient with the weapon even if it qualifies otherwise. By default, this ability applies to most melee weapons all rogues are proficient with.

Club is a simple light melee weapon and rogues are proficient with all simple weapons (including clubs). Finesse property enables sneak attack with melee weapons by RAW (as a Thug, that would include clubs - and unarmed strikes).

However, I'll add a more confined limit to how often you can use dirty tricks if more than one people deem it necessary. So far, you've been the only one to bring this up. It's not personal, mind you.

[MThurston]

If you would read it more closely, you'd see you're wrong about that.

Thug lets you treat light and one-handed melee weapons you're proficient with as if they had the finesse property. The limiting factor here is that you need to be proficient with the weapon even if it qualifies otherwise. By default, this ability applies to most melee weapons all rogues are proficient with.

Club is a simple light melee weapon and rogues are proficient with all simple weapons (including clubs). Finesse property enables sneak attack with melee weapons by RAW (as a Thug, that would include clubs - and unarmed strikes).

However, I'll add a more confined limit to how often you can use dirty tricks if more than one people deem it necessary. So far, you've been the only one to bring this up. It's not personal, mind you.

1. All the one handed simple weapons but mace and javelin are light weapons and both of those are 1d6 damage. A dwarf using a battleaxe to sneak attack is a bit much unless you meant that versatile weapons are excluded. It's why putting heavy, versatile and two handed weapons are key.

2. Dirty Tricks should be equal to your Dex mod. Not unlimited. This is the part that is OP.

3. Level 9 has too many advantages. So if you give a bonus to AC when ranged weapons are used, does the Thug get hit when that number is in that hit range? Ie Target has an AC of 15, you add a bonus and the enemy rolls a 15. So is the Thug hit instead for blocking the attack?

I can see the charmed and frightened is ok and in flavor.

The size larger is fine also but with the other two bonuses it's getting to be too much. You have to look at other subclasses. Most give one advantage and if something else is given it is usually another small bonus number of things. So for example a new trick, but you have already given a new trick. So you are giving 3 abilities and a trick at level 9. Way over powered.

4. 13 Level falls into the same thing. Two abilities and another trick. Also allowing another 1/2 damage ability is really stacking things up for the rogue.

5. Body Shield - Subtracting 3d6 to make one of your targets the new target of a single attack. This is crazy OP. Having your target hit by an enemy. The other thing is once an enemy sees this they just do not attack the Rogue. It also takes away a reaction that rogues need to do other things.

Demoralize - Fear is a spell, so you want to cast fear every turn with a Trick that is unlimited. Changing it to Paralyzed is just plain broken.

Disorientate - Way OP if you can do every turn with no limit. Spells and attacks have labels like targets you can see, some spells need Verbal words to cast. You basically take a spell caster out of the game. Stun at 17 is even more OP if it's no limit to how often you can use it.

Hamstring - Unlimited ability makes it OP. The effect is fine until 17th level. Prone would be fine but it's unable to move that is the issue. You are putting restrictions on the prone person. It says they can't move. Can they drink a potion? The don't move needs to come out.

Internal Bleed - Needs a new name. So this is just silly. I'm taking away 1d6 dice to do 1d6 damage? And it doesn't get doubled if I crit? Just seems silly and unneeded. Maybe word it that the 1d6 damage is not resistible by abilities or resistances.

Slice and Dice - Should be called Cleave. This is probably a great thing at low levels but at higher levels it's junk. It should be reworded to do weapon damage plus 2d6 and should have a limit of how many times it can be used per short rest.

Wristlock - This is disarm and again doing it repeatedly is OP. Picking a weapon up from the ground is a free action. Again you go against rules (prone) to get an advantage. Why would you hit someone to do no damage to just grapple with them? You would just grapple.

I was at my daughters dance competition and could not respond to each point.

There 100% needs to be a times able to be used. I would tie it inspiration and a Thug could even use a feat to make it better. A good amount of your things are flavored towards Battle Master anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Streetwise - same

Ruthless - changed to be none versatile, two handed or heavy weapons that the Thug is proficient in.

Dirty Tricks - Same but needs to have uses. (equal to Dex mod per long rest)

Saving Throws - Same

Stalwart - Adv on Charm and Fear checks. Counts as one size larger when grappling with an opponent.

Grit - Add +1 HP's per Rogue levels and each additional Rogue level grants a +1. Constitution saves are made at Advantage.

Improved Dirty Tricks - Explained below and if Thug has no more Dirty Tricks available they will start combat with 1.


Body Shield - Thug uses one opponent within 5 feet as cover, the first attack made against the Thug, not from the marked opponent gives the Thug a +2 AC. 17th level +1 added to AC.

Demoralize - Make an opposed Intimidation check and if successful the opponent is feared. 17th level check is made at disadvantage.

Disorientate - Target makes a Con save and on a failed save can not select the Thug as a target for it's attacks. 17th level check is made at disadvantage.

Hamstring - Target makes a Con save and on a failed save is reduced to half movement. Disengage will provoke an attack of opportunity if save is failed. 17th level check is made at disadvantage.

Precision Strike - On a successful strike 1d6 of the sneak attack damage can not be resisted. 17th level damage is increased to 2d6.

Cleave - Make one attack roll on two targets within 5 feet of Thug. If the Primary target is hit then the attack roll is used on a secondary target and if that secondary target is hit, it takes 2d6 damage. 17th level allows a third target.

Wristlock - Thug uses his weapon to twist the wrist of his target. On a failed Str or Dex check the target weapon drops. If the weapon is two handed then the target gets advantage on this save. 17th level check is made at disadvantage which negates the two handed advantage save.

I think what I have done here makes this a more balanced subclass and allows this to not be abused. It also doesn't take away losing sneak attack dice.

[MThurston]

No comment?

[rlc]

Why not just give it martial weapon proficiency and let it sneak attack with a morningstar, just as well as it would with a rapier? The two-handed and versatile exception would still apply, and you could probably add special to that list.

[MThurston]

Why not just give it martial weapon proficiency and let it sneak attack with a morningstar, just as well as it would with a rapier? The two-handed and versatile exception would still apply, and you could probably add special to that list.

That's why I changed the Thugs wording on weapons they are proficient with.

I'm still waiting for a responce on the Thugs maker. I have fixed its OP problem.

[NaughtyTiger]

That's why I changed the Thugs wording on weapons they are proficient with.

I'm still waiting for a responce on the Thugs maker. I have fixed its OP problem.


Wasn't this thread was about your OP archetype?

[MThurston]

Wasn't this thread was about your OP archetype?

It wasn't my build. I found it on and wanted to see what people thought.

Then thus guy posted an even more OP subclass that I fixed.

[NaughtyTiger]

Then thus guy posted an even more OP subclass that I fixed.

Changed, not fixed.

Dirty tricks burns sneak attack dice. Rogue does less damage per round. I disagree that they should also be a limited resource.

Your proposed changes: The manuevers do more damage + abilities...
All you did was change the mechanic to be more like Battlemaster or Scoundrel.

[MThurston]

Changed, not fixed.

Dirty tricks burns sneak attack dice. Rogue does less damage per round. I disagree that they should also be a limited resource.

Your proposed changes: The manuevers do more damage + abilities...
All you did was change the mechanic to be more like Battlemaster or Scoundrel.

Hence, fixed it.

[JNAProductions]

Hence, fixed it.

For someone who doesn't have a very good grasp of balance, you're surprisingly arrogant about it.

[NaughtyTiger]

For someone who doesn't have a very good grasp of balance, you're surprisingly arrogant about it.

I do enjoy your witty ripostes, you sum up the issue nicely every time

[Unoriginal]

For someone who doesn't have a very good grasp of balance, you're surprisingly arrogant about it.

It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[MThurston]

You don't honestly think taking off sneak attack dice to stun/knock prone/blind/feared every turn is balanced?

Just look at fear. It's a third level spell and this subclass and do it every turn!

Also being knocked prone and unable to move every turn isn't OP?

Making a spell user speechless every turn isn't OP?

Man I must have missed something.

[NaughtyTiger]

It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I learned something from GITP today!



You don't honestly think taking off sneak attack dice to stun/knock prone/blind/feared every turn is balanced?

Just look at fear. It's a third level spell and this subclass and do it every turn!

Also being knocked prone and unable to move every turn isn't OP?

Making a spell user speechless every turn isn't OP?

Man I must have missed something.

I do think the individual abilities are unbalanced, but the mechanic is not the problem, it's the individual ability.
So tweak the abilities.
You decided the only way to balance this was to remove the mechanic, and then demand applause.

It is no more unbalanced than your scoundrel that you defended.

[stoutstien]

You don't honestly think taking off sneak attack dice to stun/knock prone/blind/feared every turn is balanced?

Just look at fear. It's a third level spell and this subclass and do it every turn!

Also being knocked prone and unable to move every turn isn't OP?

Making a spell user speechless every turn isn't OP?

Man I must have missed something.
You did.

Cause fear is a level one spell. Seeing how you must first hit the target with a melee weapon and then they must fail a save and it only can last until the end of the targets next turn makes that fairly level.

If you are worried about a player proning on a save at lv 17 your in for a rude a awaking. At this lv a warlock is knocking back a target 40 feet a turn or the scout is dropping two sneak attacks a turn. Thief gets two turns. Master minds are giving every mind reader a headache and not even going to talk about what full casters are doing

Not all spells have verbal components and alot of NPCs magic is at will so no help here. Same goes for disarm/wristlock no help with natural weapons which makes up 80% of NPCs a party may face(table dependent)

[MThurston]

LOL.

Unlimited use is ok, but limited use is OP.

Ok

[Arkhios]

LOL.

Unlimited use is ok, but limited use is OP.

Ok

None of us is saying that except you alone.

However, I do understand why you feel it might be OP if it is unlimited. Still, I disagree with you. Disagreeing with your opinion is not a personal attack towards you either. Remember, just because you think something is as you say does not mean you are right, and others are wrong. This goes both ways. I admit that I might be just as wrong as you, but as long as the majority of people perceiving the ability find it balanced, then I'm inclined to believe them more than you. The most ideal situation would be to get the real designers evaluate the balance, but since we can't have that, we ask the community instead.

In general, if there is a debate between opinions, multiple opinions saying one thing weigh more than one opinion saying other thing.

Just FYI -- if you even care about what I am saying -- it used to have a limit previously, until it was pointed out that since you already need to make a melee attack roll, hit with it, and be able to sneak attack (again, you can only deal sneak attack damage once per turn, and only with very specific weapons), and on top of that, you have to reduce the available sneak attack dice before you roll damage, it's already limited by several things. Maybe not by an expendable resource such as bardic inspiration, but it has quite a bit of other restrictions nonetheless.
Besides, in most cases, a Dirty Trick does absolutely nothing extra to the target if it saves against the effect, except the target still takes the reduced damage from sneak attack.

And what comes to allowing versatile weapons to deal sneak attack damage, the main thing is that it doesn't let you do anything new. For example, according to Crawford himself, Great Weapon Fighting Style only lets you re-roll the damage dice derived from your weapon. It does not apply to additional dice such as from Divine Smite or Sneak Attack. And if you're allowed to use feats, Great Weapon Master does NOT let you deal extra damage with versatile weapons. Even if held in two hands. To be able to reduce attack bonus by 5 in order to deal 10 extra damage, the feat requires that you use a weapon with the Heavy property.
Thus, in the end, it doesn't matter whether you attack using strength or dexterity, because the base damage remains the same.

As for the notations that individual dirty tricks might be unbalanced, I'm all ears, and willing to adjust them. Just tell me which one of them needs to be fixed, and we're half way there already!

[MThurston]

None of us is saying that except you alone.

However, I do understand why you feel it might be OP if it is unlimited. Still, I disagree with you. Disagreeing with your opinion is not a personal attack towards you either. Remember, just because you think something is as you say does not mean you are right, and others are wrong. This goes both ways. I admit that I might be just as wrong as you, but as long as the majority of people perceiving the ability find it balanced, then I'm inclined to believe them more than you. The most ideal situation would be to get the real designers evaluate the balance, but since we can't have that, we ask the community instead.

In general, if there is a debate between opinions, multiple opinions saying one thing weigh more than one opinion saying other thing.

Just FYI -- if you even care about what I am saying -- it used to have a limit previously, until it was pointed out that since you already need to make a melee attack roll, hit with it, and be able to sneak attack (again, you can only deal sneak attack damage once per turn, and only with very specific weapons), and on top of that, you have to reduce the available sneak attack dice before you roll damage, it's already limited by several things. Maybe not by an expendable resource such as bardic inspiration, but it has quite a bit of other restrictions nonetheless.
Besides, in most cases, a Dirty Trick does absolutely nothing extra to the target if it saves against the effect, except the target still takes the reduced damage from sneak attack.

And what comes to allowing versatile weapons to deal sneak attack damage, the main thing is that it doesn't let you do anything new. For example, according to Crawford himself, Great Weapon Fighting Style only lets you re-roll the damage dice derived from your weapon. It does not apply to additional dice such as from Divine Smite or Sneak Attack. And if you're allowed to use feats, Great Weapon Master does NOT let you deal extra damage with versatile weapons. Even if held in two hands. To be able to reduce attack bonus by 5 in order to deal 10 extra damage, the feat requires that you use a weapon with the Heavy property.
Thus, in the end, it doesn't matter whether you attack using strength or dexterity, because the base damage remains the same.

As for the notations that individual dirty tricks might be unbalanced, I'm all ears, and willing to adjust them. Just tell me which one of them needs to be fixed, and we're half way there already!

Rogues that need to hit for this will be attacking with two weapons. This will improve the chance to hit.

If your DM does flanking, then it is even better.

If you wanted to bonus action hide and then attack you will also get advantage.

If you took Warlock you could cast Darkness and then be able to see through it.

Many ways to make sure you hit.

Taking away dice to sneak attack isn't a penalty if your are putting status effects on targets.

I have written out what makes the Thug way unbalanced. I don't need to go back into it.

My suggestions balance it out.

[Arkhios]

Rogues that need to hit for this will be attacking with two weapons. This will improve the chance to hit.

If your DM does flanking, then it is even better.

If you wanted to bonus action hide and then attack you will also get advantage.

If you took Warlock you could cast Darkness and then be able to see through it.

Many ways to make sure you hit.

Taking away dice to sneak attack isn't a penalty if your are putting status effects on targets.

I have written out what makes the Thug way unbalanced. I don't need to go back into it.

My suggestions balance it out.

It's true there are many ways to increase your chances to hit, but none of them make it 100% sure. Even Advantage doesn't cause your attacks to hit every time, no matter how many attacks (or attack rolls) you have.

Taking away dice from sneak attack is a penalty (or, as I would prefer to call it: a gamble) if your target succeeds its saving throw. To drive a status effect home, you need at least two things to make it happen: Hitting the target and the target failing its save afterwards. If it succeeds the save, you only deal reduced damage. Nothing more.

One of your major suggestions was to re-design Dirty Tricks completely, without using the dice reduction mechanic. Here's the thing, in case it wasn't obvious: the mechanic behind Dirty Tricks was the reason I made the sub-class. Understand this, I won't remove the mechanic. I might add limited amount of Dirty Tricks per short or long rest, but I won't change the fundamental idea behind it. I have acknowledged that some individual dirty tricks would need to be re-designed. The way you presented "the fixes" made me choose not to respond earlier, because I found the manner you did it offensive, as if you had the right to tell me in fine detail what I should design and how; stepping on my toes so to speak.

[MThurston]

It's true there are many ways to increase your chances to hit, but none of them make it 100% sure. Even Advantage doesn't cause your attacks to hit every time, no matter how many attacks (or attack rolls) you have.

Taking away dice from sneak attack is a penalty (or, as I would prefer to call it: a gamble) if your target succeeds its saving throw. To drive a status effect home, you need at least two things to make it happen: Hitting the target and the target failing its save afterwards. If it succeeds the save, you only deal reduced damage. Nothing more.

One of your major suggestions was to re-design Dirty Tricks completely, without using the dice reduction mechanic. Here's the thing, in case it wasn't obvious: the mechanic behind Dirty Tricks was the reason I made the sub-class. Understand this, I won't remove the mechanic. I might add limited amount of Dirty Tricks per short or long rest, but I won't change the fundamental idea behind it. I have acknowledged that some individual dirty tricks would need to be re-designed. The way you presented "the fixes" made me choose not to respond earlier, because I found the manner you did it offensive, as if you had the right to tell me in fine detail what I should design and how; stepping on my toes so to speak.

Again, saying that you have a chance to miss does not change the fact at what effects you put on an opponant.

Let me drop some more tactics.

That Warlock dip just casted Hex. Now I give you disadvantage on a Con save.

I hide and attack at advantage. I hit the Dragon and it is making a save at disadvantage.

So now I have the Dragon prone and unable to move.

My buddy the spell caster puts an effect on the space the Dragon is in.

Now the whole team is attacking a prone Dragon and you get to do it over, and over and over.

Just alone that ability is broken. They cant even standup which gives the rogue another advantage attack.

So you beat on them until they die and they never get an attack.

[NaughtyTiger]

That Warlock dip just casted Hex. Now I give you disadvantage on a Con save.


Oh Gawd, read the rules. Hex affects ability checks not saves.

YOU actually thought that a 1st level spell gives disadvantage on a save, and you don't complain THAT is overpowered.

a 1st level spell, that you can use for an hour, and you were okay with that causing disadvantage on Wisdom or Con or Dex...

Better yet, play the game. Best way to learn the rules is for a table member to say nuh uh.

[Arkhios]

Again, saying that you have a chance to miss does not change the fact at what effects you put on an opponant.

Let me drop some more tactics.

That Warlock dip just casted Hex. Now I give you disadvantage on a Con save.

I hide and attack at advantage. I hit the Dragon and it is making a save at disadvantage.

So now I have the Dragon prone and unable to move.

My buddy the spell caster puts an effect on the space the Dragon is in.

Now the whole team is attacking a prone Dragon and you get to do it over, and over and over.

Just alone that ability is broken. They cant even standup which gives the rogue another advantage attack.

So you beat on them until they die and they never get an attack.

'Warlock dip' refers to being multi-classed, which has its own opportunity cost. Likewise, using Hex means you have spent your resources. However, that's all fine. It's what both aspects of the rules are capable of doing. But, as NaughtyTiger said, Hex does absolutely nothing to your target's saves. The game has three (3) different cases of tossing the d20: Attack Roll, Ability Check, and Saving Throw, which are definitive parts of the rules.

What comes afterwards is a specific example of why you think one Individual Dirty Trick (obviously you're talking about Hamstring) is overpowered. Except, have you realized that you can't, even potentially, lock someone into being prone until you have at least 17 levels in Rogue? Or that the target receives another save at the start of it's turn to end this effect, just as likely to start its turn by standing up. And being prone doesn't prevent you from attacking. You're not incapacitated if you're prone. You can still use your Action and Bonus Action, just not to move. For example, you could cast Misty Step and teleport away. Problem solved.
Anyway, let's assume this is overpowered status effect: why would an overpowered status effect from a Dirty Trick justify removing the whole Dirty Trick mechanic entirely, instead of only adjusting the status effect to be less powerful?

Also, I'm still puzzled why you think the base mechanic of Dirty Tricks itself (that is, reducing sneak attack dice to cause a status effect) is overpowered. You make a choice to reduce the damage you could do and instead bestow a status effect, but only if the target fails its save. Effectively, you make a gamble of luck which might end with you dealing less damage than you could've dealt if you didn't use a Dirty Trick. Also, effectively, that's same as casting a spell that doesn't deal damage, but bestows a status effect instead. Why would you use such a spell if you could just deal damage? ...Because, maybe, you didn't want to kill the target. At all, or not just yet.

I admit the results of certain individual Dirty Tricks might be a bit too strong, but that can be fixed. I've heard your concerns, and I can adjust them. Just... don't expect it to happen immediately.
Likewise, I'm already thinking about an appropriate way to implement a reasonable limit for how often you can use them, because as I said before, they are somewhat equal to spells, which in turn, does warrant another limitation.

[stoutstien]

Again, saying that you have a chance to miss does not change the fact at what effects you put on an opponant.

Let me drop some more tactics.

That Warlock dip just casted Hex. Now I give you disadvantage on a Con save.

I hide and attack at advantage. I hit the Dragon and it is making a save at disadvantage.

So now I have the Dragon prone and unable to move.

My buddy the spell caster puts an effect on the space the Dragon is in.

Now the whole team is attacking a prone Dragon and you get to do it over, and over and over.

Just alone that ability is broken. They cant even standup which gives the rogue another advantage attack.

So you beat on them until they die and they never get an attack.
You might quit if a monk gets to lv 5 at your table.

[MThurston]

You might quit if a monk gets to lv 5 at your table.

No one plays a monk.

[stoutstien]

No one plays a monk.
Hasty generalization.
I have never seen anyone play monk therefore no one plays monk.
If all your players do is build Uber damage builds then yes you won't see many monks but if control is important than monks are arguably one of the best. Seeing how this homebrew is a melee control build it's the best comparison I can think of but if you're more familiar with the battle mastery we can use that one instead.

At lv three a BM can do 4 maneuvers per short rest or 12 a day if we assume 3 short/long rest ratio.
The BM ADDS the dice damage to an attack AFTER you know it hits to:
-Fear until end of fighters next turn.
-Disarm then kick away as free action
-Trip on save
*All these work with ranged weapons as well and can do more than once per turn.
Compared to thug:
SUBTRACT xd6 from an attack to add:
Fear until end of targets next turn. Which could be next turn.
Deaf/blind/gagged* end of it's next turn.
Disarm with chance that target dumb and will provide an AOO.
Only once per turn and must be melee.

[JNAProductions]

No one plays a monk.

This isn’t 3.5.

Monks kick butt.

[rlc]

Why not just give it martial weapon proficiency and let it sneak attack with a morningstar, just as well as it would with a rapier? The two-handed and versatile exception would still apply, and you could probably add special to that list.

Thinking back to this (yes, I know this was my own post), maybe versatile weapons wouldn't be too bad. They'd give strength monks an average of +1 damage over the rapier, which doesn't really make a huge difference. Heck, even adding an extra d6 from using a great sword instead of short sword probably wouldn't break much, once you get a couple sneak attack dice.

[MThurston]

Thinking back to this (yes, I know this was my own post), maybe versatile weapons wouldn't be too bad. They'd give strength monks an average of +1 damage over the rapier, which doesn't really make a huge difference. Heck, even adding an extra d6 from using a great sword instead of short sword probably wouldn't break much, once you get a couple sneak attack dice.

SMH. Let's just do crazy stuff now.

[rlc]

Honestly, with all of the synergy that dex rogues get, an archetype built around strength rogues should get something cool, whether it's extra damage, or something else.
Alternatively, a rogue that uses battle maneuvers fluffed as fighting dirty might be interesting, too, considering sneak attack only really covers the extra damage part of that.

Actually, I found this on homebrewery (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkX1am-SDe)
I like how it gets additional options by giving stuff up, like the samurai fighter archetype.