How to challenge a high level Illusion Wizard without completely shutting them down?

[TheUser]

As the title suggests.
Once Illusion Wizards hit level 14 they're toolbox becomes rather insane.

I'm sure that many DM's have multiple interpretations of how things should work but Illusory Reality seems absolutely bonkers.

1) RAW it lacks the "material components" caveat that a spell like creation does, meaning you can create material components for spells and then make them real and use them. (How does Adventurer's League feel about this?) Since consumed material components are only required "before a spell is cast" in the PHB the 1 minute duration of Illusory Reality isn't really a limitation either....

2) Malleable Illusions + Illusory Reality and Permanent duration Major Image means a simple illusory pin becomes a re-enforced, 3 inch thick, chain linked adamantine mesh around any opponent(s) that occupy a 20ft cube, locking them into place with a seemingly irresistible restrained condition. If opponents spend time breaking it or destroying it you can remold it with a single action...

3) Both of these means that your Simulacrum can do the exact same thing without using spell slots (replacing it with a new one doesn't really cost you anything besides the time and the level 7 spell slot anyway thanks to point #1....).

4) Mirage Arcana can deal damage (Thanks Jeremy!). Meaning if you are afforded the opportunity to cast it over a piece of terrain you know you will fight in, you can later malleable illusion a cave-in or a pit of lava being revealed after the floor crumbles beneath them, etc etc. (Being fully submerged in lava does 18d10 damage btw). What's more, even if you are able to detect it with a spell like True Sight, it doesn't stop the manifestations from being real or doing damage.


And many more insane interactions.


My question to the community is, with the exception of Anti-Magic Fields and aggressive use of dispel magic, how do you challenge a player like this without completely roadblocking them?

[Man_Over_Game]

As the title suggests.
Once Illusion Wizards hit level 14 they're toolbox becomes rather insane.

I'm sure that many DM's have multiple interpretations of how things should work but Illusory Reality seems absolutely bonkers.

1) RAW it lacks the "material components" caveat that a spell like creation does, meaning you can create material components for spells and then make them real and use them. (How does Adventurer's League feel about this?) Since consumed material components are only required "before a spell is cast" in the PHB the 1 minute duration of Illusory Reality isn't really a limitation either....

2) Malleable Illusions + Illusory Reality and Permanent duration Major Image means a simple illusory pin becomes a re-enforced, 3 inch thick, chain linked adamantine mesh around any opponent(s) that occupy a 20ft cube, locking them into place with a seemingly irresistible restrained condition. If opponents spend time breaking it or destroying it you can remold it with a single action...

3) Both of these means that your Simulacrum can do the exact same thing without using spell slots (replacing it with a new one doesn't really cost you anything besides the time and the level 7 spell slot anyway thanks to point #1....).

4) Mirage Arcana can deal damage (Thanks Jeremy!). Meaning if you are afforded the opportunity to cast it over a piece of terrain you know you will fight in, you can later malleable illusion a cave-in or a pit of lava being revealed after the floor crumbles beneath them, etc etc. (Being fully submerged in lava does 18d10 damage btw). What's more, even if you are able to detect it with a spell like True Sight, it doesn't stop the manifestations from being real or doing damage.


And many more insane interactions.


My question to the community is, with the exception of Anti-Magic Fields and aggressive use of dispel magic, how do you challenge a player like this without completely roadblocking them?

Not every possible circumstance is going to be noted within the rules; if every possible outcome was laid out, there wouldn't be a need for a narrator/referee. Figuring out how to make your own rulings is part of the job, and sometimes that means more than just inserting a bunch of creatures with Truesight; sometimes, you just gotta change how stuff works to fit.


The DM can decide if illusory objects were considered "real" enough. Hell, spells that actually create stuff explicitly say that the materials can't be used as components, and I'd DEFINITELY follow the same logic with an illusion-turned-real.
There's some debate on this, but you may not be able to combine Malleable Illusions with Illusory Reality, as Malleable Illusions works on, well, illusions, and Illusory Reality says "you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of the illusion and make that object real... The object remains real for 1 minute". Note that it doesn't say anything about the illusion remaining an illusion. I'd say that you can manipulate a "real" illusion with Malleable Illusions again, but doing so reverts it back into an illusion. Another approach is to just say that Illusion Reality objects are weaker than their normal counterparts, or that they can't duplicate objects of magical quality (like Adamantine).
That's part of the problem with Simulacrum. I'd create your own workaround (like maybe say that only one of you can use a specific class feature/feat at a time).
JC provides information based on intent, but unless it's in the Sage Compendium, his word is not the law. He's actively said that a DM should not bind their beliefs to his own rulings. Note that something like Phantasmal Force also can cause things to appear real, yet it deals a specific amount of Psychic damage when damage would normally be applied. I'd do something similar, applying a specific amount of Psychic damage when the player is subject to this illusory magma (or rocks falling, or whatever).


The Rule of Cool should have precedence when Creativity conflicts with Mechanics. When trying to be Creative WITH the Mechanics (such as cheesing out costly components), then you need to lay the law down.

Never should Creativity be an excuse to cheat the game.

[MaxWilson]

2) Malleable Illusions + Illusory Reality and Permanent duration Major Image means a simple illusory pin becomes a re-enforced, 3 inch thick, chain linked adamantine mesh around any opponent(s) that occupy a 20ft cube, locking them into place with a seemingly irresistible restrained condition. If opponents spend time breaking it or destroying it you can remold it with a single action...

I'm not sure but it seems like you're allowing the illusionist to pick up illusions and move them around, else why mention a pin instead of a bird or something? RAW, the only way to move a Major Image is to spend your action making it move. Furthermore, once you've used Illusory Reality on a given Major Image, that's it for that spell--you'd need a separate Major Image to do it again. You can't just "re-mold" an existing wall repeatedly.

Beyond that, I'd suggest rewriting Illusory Reality slightly. Instead of "you can make that object real," which some people might interpret as "genuine," just say "you can make that object tangible." The fluff text makes it clear that it's still supposed to be shadow-stuff, not quite the real thing. Then you definitely can't use the tangible illusions as material components for spells (they're fake), and you can justify ad-hoc rulings on the strength of the tangible illusion as well (HP = wizard level * INT mod seems reasonable to me, AC determined by apparent material, up to AC 20 for Adamantium) without getting into arguments with yourself or your players about how hard a genuine three-foot-thick adamantium wall would be to damage.

"Real" = "tangible", and "real" = "genuine," but "tangible" != "genuine." It seems clear to me that tangible is what is meant by the rule text.

On a related note: half a loaf is better than nothing, and nothing is better than pizza, so half a loaf is better than pizza. (Same kind of logic error as "tangible" = "genuine".)

[SkipSandwich]

Illsuory reality explicity states it cannot cause damage nor "direct harm" so lava is right out (other then as thematic mood lighting).

It takes an Action to modify an illusion to add/delete a feature/object via malleable Illusions, then a bonus action to make it real, so no conflict there, but that does mean that if you want to make components then you have to spend a full turn making the component before casting the spell on your next turn.

Personally I would rule that while you can make an illusory diamond real in a physical sense, you cannot make "a Diamond with a 500gp value" nor other components with specific market values. Even IF I allowed it I would say the effects of the spell become part of the illusion and would reverse as soon as the illusion itself ends, 1 min elapses or you end the "make real" duration by making another part of the illusion real. So if you spend turn 1 making illusory bat guano real, then use that guano to cast Fireball, any damage dealt by that fireball would be erased as soon as the illusion drops (though i would throw a bone and say that any creatures killed/incapacitated by the spell remain unconscious but otherwise unharmed when the effects end).

[Man_Over_Game]

Illsuory reality explicity states it cannot cause damage nor "direct harm" so lava is right out (other then as thematic mood lighting).

Mirage Arcane is a specific spell that lets you rewrite like an acre's worth of terrain using Illusion magic. Level 7 or something like that. He's not turning that real, he's just saying that it's BS if it lets you create magma directly under someone.

[SkipSandwich]

The description of Mirage Arcane makes no mention of creating dangerous hazzards, at most you can turn difficult terrain in to normal terrain and vice-versa. So that lava would be hot, but not hot enough to burn, but could count as difficult terrain, like hot glowy mud.

Also "pool of lava" or "pocket of vaccum" or "sphere of water" could be argued as RAI to not count as "objects" for the purposes of Illusory Reality, given all the other provisions against illusions being harmless except when explicity stated otherwise.

[TheUser]

Furthermore, once you've used Illusory Reality on a given Major Image, that's it for that spell--you'd need a separate Major Image to do it again. You can't just "re-mold" an existing wall repeatedly.


I don't think that's accurate.
Nothing about Illusory Reality would seem to suggest it cannot be re-used on the same spell again with another bonus action.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/81193/can-illusory-reality-be-reused-on-the-same-object-that-is-part-of-the-same-spell

Essentially the wizard and their simulacrum both consistently spend an action carrying around a permanent pin for each of them and and can re-sculpt it and make it real on a turn with an action + bonus action.

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't think that's accurate.
Nothing about Illusory Reality would seem to suggest it cannot be re-used on the same spell again with another bonus action.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/81193/can-illusory-reality-be-reused-on-the-same-object-that-is-part-of-the-same-spell

Essentially the wizard and their simulacrum both consistently spend an action carrying around a permanent pin for each of them and and can re-sculpt it and make it real on a turn with an action + bonus action.

And how's that been working out for you?

There's nothing explicit on either side, so it's your call.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think that's accurate.
Nothing about Illusory Reality would seem to suggest it cannot be re-used on the same spell again with another bonus action.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/81193/can-illusory-reality-be-reused-on-the-same-object-that-is-part-of-the-same-spell

Essentially the wizard and their simulacrum both consistently spend an action carrying around a permanent pin for each of them and and can re-sculpt it and make it real on a turn with an action + bonus action.

I guess we read it differently then. To me, if it were intended to be usable at will, it would just say, "As a bonus action on your turn, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical object you created with an illusion spell of first level or higher and make that object real." It wouldn't have that additional wording that makes casting the spell a precondition to using the action.

Note further that WotC has a boatload of class features that activate in similar patterns, "when you cast [specific type of spell][using a spell slot?] [XYZ happens]." These other abilities inform my reading of the spell--it looks like the only things that make Illusory Reality different are that (1) you don't have to have spent a spell slot; (2) the opportunity created by casting the spell doesn't have to be taken immediately. It can be taken at a later time, as long as the spell hasn't ended.

Ultimately though, you're the DM. Do what seems reasonable to you.

P.S. Again, why the pin? If you made it an illusory sparrow or something at least you'd only have to move it occasionally; if you try to wear an illusory pin you'll have to babysit it constantly, every time you move yourself. It's way too much headache to be plausible as something any actual person would ever do for more than a few minutes at a time.

[Willie the Duck]

Illusions, amongst all spells, are and always have been the most DM-gated spells (running neck and neck with enchantments, although it is easier for the game rules to set a baseline interpretation of what is possible for enchantments with things like whether people know they've been ensorcelled afterwards, etc.). Limiting illusionists shouldn't be hard. Threading the needle between being open minded, being fair, and not being a pushover is a skill to develop, however. This is why, traditionally, people have considered illusions to be anywhere from the least to most powerful school of magic, because you as the DM (and everyone else's DM) had different interpretations regarding what would fly.

It sounds like you've sided with a more lenient or rewarding interpretation, and now feel fenced in by it. I can't make winding that back any easier, but my advice is to do so. Because you are right--if high level illusions are inarguable opportunities to throw opponents into chain linked adamantine restraints or un-dodge-able jets or pits of full-immersion lava, then we're back to the rocket-tag days of high-level 3e where they who gets of their spell first wins. And, carefully parsed readings of RAW or not, I thoroughly believe that that was not the designer intent.

[Provo]

I don't think that's accurate.
Nothing about Illusory Reality would seem to suggest it cannot be re-used on the same spell again with another bonus action.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/81193/can-illusory-reality-be-reused-on-the-same-object-that-is-part-of-the-same-spell

Essentially the wizard and their simulacrum both consistently spend an action carrying around a permanent pin for each of them and and can re-sculpt it and make it real on a turn with an action + bonus action.

Going strictly by the rules will likely have 1 of 2 outcomes:
1. The players tactic is ruled to not work (highly unsatisfying for the player who built this character up with this in mind)
2. The player’s tactic is legal (unsatisfying to you because it is obviously abusing the system)

You may have to make a judgement that is not strictly supported by the rules in order to achieve a result that both of you will be ok with. The illusionist abilities are not specific. It is okay to add rules for how they work in specific situations.

My suggestion:
Give the spells HP... Normally this wouldn’t do anything. You can’t harm an illusion because it’s not real. However when shadowstuff makes the spell real, it can be degraded by physical actions.
Let the HP level stay even when the player “remolds” it. They can change it all they want, but the “weave” of the spell is still degraded. When the HP disappears, the illusion remains but is too weak to support shadowstuff.

That way the caster eventually needs to cast another illusion to keep their defense going.

The illusions would have 5 or 10 hp per spell level, depending on your preference.

[Nhorianscum]

As the title suggests.
Once Illusion Wizards hit level 14 they're toolbox becomes rather insane.

I'm sure that many DM's have multiple interpretations of how things should work but Illusory Reality seems absolutely bonkers.

1) RAW it lacks the "material components" caveat that a spell like creation does, meaning you can create material components for spells and then make them real and use them. (How does Adventurer's League feel about this?) Since consumed material components are only required "before a spell is cast" in the PHB the 1 minute duration of Illusory Reality isn't really a limitation either....

2) Malleable Illusions + Illusory Reality and Permanent duration Major Image means a simple illusory pin becomes a re-enforced, 3 inch thick, chain linked adamantine mesh around any opponent(s) that occupy a 20ft cube, locking them into place with a seemingly irresistible restrained condition. If opponents spend time breaking it or destroying it you can remold it with a single action...

3) Both of these means that your Simulacrum can do the exact same thing without using spell slots (replacing it with a new one doesn't really cost you anything besides the time and the level 7 spell slot anyway thanks to point #1....).

4) Mirage Arcana can deal damage (Thanks Jeremy!). Meaning if you are afforded the opportunity to cast it over a piece of terrain you know you will fight in, you can later malleable illusion a cave-in or a pit of lava being revealed after the floor crumbles beneath them, etc etc. (Being fully submerged in lava does 18d10 damage btw). What's more, even if you are able to detect it with a spell like True Sight, it doesn't stop the manifestations from being real or doing damage.


And many more insane interactions.


My question to the community is, with the exception of Anti-Magic Fields and aggressive use of dispel magic, how do you challenge a player like this without completely roadblocking them?

Without heavily changing the rules or intentionally gimping the character?

You can't. The Illusionist capstone is effectively "control reality" and it expicitly denies every effect that could counter it sans dispel magic which, does jack all when you're a 14th level wizard.

Talk to the player, ask them to only carry one reality breaking pocket anything and not spam mirage arcana every day. Use enemies that have loads of mobility. Let them enjoy this after 13 levels of effective no-sub wizard.

[JackPhoenix]

1) and 4): while you only need the material component when you cast the spell, Simulacrum has 12 hour-long casting time. That's 7200 actions you'll need to spend by casting the spell. Even if the material works, it would be long gone by then.

Plus it's ruby POWDER. Illusory Reality will allow you to make one object real. One grain of ruby powder is one object, but it's not anywhere near enough for Simulacrum.

[TheUser]

1) and 4): while you only need the material component when you cast the spell, Simulacrum has 12 hour-long casting time. That's 7200 actions you'll need to spend by casting the spell. Even if the material works, it would be long gone by then.

If the Simulacrum you've already summoned has your abilities it can be the one spending the *720 bonus actions. (Illusory Reality lasts 1 minute remember?)



Plus it's ruby POWDER. Illusory Reality will allow you to make one object real. One grain of ruby powder is one object, but it's not anywhere near enough for Simulacrum.

All matter is composed of tiny particulates so this sort of argumentation doesn't really hold up. Is sealed vial of trolls blood a single object or is it 3? The glass vial, cork stopper at the top and the liquid all embody a single object. Is conjuring forth a door with hinges and a turning doorknob a single object or many with it's hinges, knob, and mechanical parts. Is a lit torch one object or 3? The wood of the torch, the rag wrapped around the top and the lamp oil the rag is soaked in.

The sort of interpretation you are proposing is far too restrictive to hold up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

EDIT: Alternative solution, conjure an illusory ruby, make it real and crush it into powder?

[JackPhoenix]

If the Simulacrum you've already summoned has your abilities it can be the one spending the *720 bonus actions. (Illusory Reality lasts 1 minute remember?)

Yes, and...? The spell still takes 12 hours to cast, so the ruby will be long gone by then.


All matter is composed of tiny particulates so this sort of argumentation doesn't really hold up. Is sealed vial of trolls blood a single object or is it 3? The glass vial, cork stopper at the top and the liquid all embody a single object. Is conjuring forth a door with hinges and a turning doorknob a single object or many with it's hinges, knob, and mechanical parts. Is a lit torch one object or 3? The wood of the torch, the rag wrapped around the top and the lamp oil the rag is soaked in.

The sort of interpretation you are proposing is far too restrictive to hold up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

Not really. A whole door or a torch is a single object made from multiple parts. A grain of dust is still a grain of dust. Pile of something is *not* a single object.


EDIT: Alternative solution, conjure an illusory ruby, make it real and crush it into powder?

The powder that disappears less than one minute after you create the ruby. That's supposed to help you how? You're back to square one, i.e. the "real" object is long gone before you finish the spell.

[TheUser]

Yes, and...? The spell still takes 12 hours to cast, so the ruby will be long gone by then.

Nothing about the feature limits you from spending another bonus action to make the same object real for another minute. The number of objects that you can make real per spell is what is limited by the feature, not the number of times it can be used. I know it can be hard to stop yourself from chiming in by first going and reading the rule you have an opinion on but I highly recommend it as a standard MO in these forums. It never hurts to have a quick refresher on what the contents of a rule are before commenting on it.


ILLUSORY REALITY
By 14th level, you have learned the secret of weaving
shadow magic into your illusions to give them a semireality.
When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or
higher, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical
object that is part of the illusion and make that object
real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action
while the spell is ongoing. The object remains real for
1 minute. For example, you can create an illusion of a
bridge over a chasm and then make it real long enough
for your allies to cross.
The object can't deal damage or otherwise
directly harm anyone.




Not really. A whole door or a torch is a single object made from multiple parts. A grain of dust is still a grain of dust. Pile of something is *not* a single object.


I see where you are coming from but can't say I agree.

If an illusionist asked to make real a bowl of rice I'd be hard pressed to tell them it isn't a singular object because the "rice" represents a literal pile of rice grains, and the bowl is also a seperate object. It seems overly semantic to be honest.

[Nukeko]

Easy.

Subtle Metamagic and a Sneaky Sorcerer.

Cast Subtle Modify Memory.

[Dalebert]

* You can make something real only once per spell cast. So major image is nice to have around but it can become real only once.
* A diamond about to disappear is nearly worthless. What would you offer for it knowing it's about to vanish? It's def not worth $500. Only a permanent diamond can have that kind of value.
* It specifically says the object can't harm.
* Suggestion: cast Creation for an object that you can transform for the duration.

[Azgeroth]

well, if your just looking to challenge the player...

give them some fights on other planes, with powerful beings of that plane.

i.e. some entity with direct control of that reality, think limbo. don't take their toys away, just give the same tools to the enemy, in lesser and greater capacities.