OOTS #1157 - The Discussion Thread.

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Angrith]

That certainly explains how the domination plan is supposed to work. And our heros can't dispel the domination. That's the part that really scares me.

[jayarsea]

Well, I'm excited! Now we see what the heroes have to contend with

[Kopmon]

:o
It’s happening!!

[Eragon123]

Giant, I must commend you to continually come up with infuriating but logical scenarios for our heroes to overcome and in such a comical way to boot.

[dmc91356]

Loving this.

Durkon and Minrah to the rescue (assuming she gets raised first, otherwise, Durkon to the rescue)!!

[Lord Torath]

And more of the the arcane rules of the Council of Clans are revealed. And you've got to love those Evil Cackles and Premature Gloating (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html)!

Thanks, Rich!

[The Pilgrim]

Finally, the Plan explained!

Let the hunting for flaws and plot holes in the scheme begin!

[Aeliren]

I think a Bardic Song of Freedom would work. It produces a magical effect, but it is not classified as either a spell or supernatural effect. It just falls under the category of bardic music.

[dmc91356]

Elan's not a dwarf, how is he getting in to sing his song?

[Corona]

It's the Blue Barrier of Plot Convenience! :smalltongue:

[TerrickTerran]

Ahhh the villain gloating scene. Elan would certainly approve.:smallbiggrin:

[Nith]

So since the exarch says he gained the knowledge from his sire (Vampire Durkon), can we assume Durkon knows it as well and the order will at least know what they need to make a plan about? Or was that knowledge from Hel and Durkon might not have gained it?

[xroads]

Very cool. I look forward to the heroes overcoming these obstacles.

But one question. Durkon :durkon: said there was three rings. But the page only discusses two. Is there a third one being held in narrative suspense? Or am I misunderstanding.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's only two layers of defence, but Durkon mentioned three rings. Is there an inner-inner chamber? Or will they encounter difficulties even getting to the building?

ETA: Thor damnit, xroads

Grey Wolf

[nabcif]

I think a Bardic Song of Freedom would work. It produces a magical effect, but it is not classified as either a spell or supernatural effect. It just falls under the category of bardic music.

Ah, so we need to get Thirden there (or polymorph Elan)?

[understatement]

I hate to be that person, but --

early!!!!!

Also the Exarch's laugh is freaking hilarious! Reminds me of when RC and MiTD let out their evil laughs.

[Lord Torath]

I think a Bardic Song of Freedom would work. It produces a magical effect, but it is not classified as either a spell or supernatural effect. It just falls under the category of bardic music.Elan's not a dwarf, though, so he can't penetrate the Orange Barrier. I presume the barriers (at least the blue one) are domes/spheres, rather than door wards, so tearing the walls down probably wouldn't work for by-passing them.

Do magic items count for spells and supernatural abilities? If Durkon brings a clerical Staff of Dispelling (or borrows one of Haley's wands), wound that count as casting a spell?

[Leftour]

Orange and blue. Subliminal portal tribute or just a coincidence?

[TRH]

Hang on, if Durkon or Hilgya were to cast Antimagic Field or Circle of Protection From Evil/Law between the orange and blue barriers, and then walk through, then that would suppress the domination effect, wouldn't it?

[Grey Watcher]

That certainly explains how the domination plan is supposed to work. And our heros can't dispel the domination. That's the part that really scares me.

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

Also, the Sudden Skylight hypothesis gains more traction. If we can't get the rest of the Order in through the door....

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Orange and blue. Subliminal portal tribute or just a coincidence?

Distinctive colours are distinctive. Feels like a coincidence. Had not noticed the page title. With that in mind, it does feel like a deliberate call-out.

Nope, jossed. I was right the first time

Grey Wolf

[Lexible]

Holes and Walls

Blue.
Orange.

I see what you did there.

Edit: Doh! Ninja'ed, etc.

[Lord Torath]

Blue.
Orange.

I see what you did there.

Edit: Doh! Ninja'ed, etc.I didn't. Not until you pointed it out. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

Do Vampires count as "creatures"?

[TRH]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

Also, the Sudden Skylight hypothesis gains more traction. If we can't get the rest of the Order in through the door....

The vampires have no incentive to make a stand outside the blue barrier at this point, to my understanding. So drawing them out and dusting them may not be so easy unless they do the Magic Circle/Antimagic Field plan I suggested above.

[Theodoriph]

I hate to be that person, but --

early!!!!!

Also the Exarch's laugh is freaking hilarious! Reminds me of when RC and MiTD let out their evil laughs.

Thanks for pointing that out! I totally misread it as Bwa-haa-haa-haa-haa. Went back to it and laughed out loud.

[Sniffnoy]

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...

Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before. But then, the whole thing may have always been more symbolic than practical -- who would really try to control a council meeting this way, after all? They'd just get themselves in trouble with the law afterward. So nobody ever tested it, so it was never fixed (or maybe it was tested but nobody knew how to alter it anymore)... leaving us here. Oh my...

[Resileaf]

Well hopefully this answers the complaints that people had about the vampires' plan.

[Lexible]

That certainly explains how the domination plan is supposed to work. And our heros can't dispel the domination. That's the part that really scares me.

But they can certainly cast spells to punch holes in the roof and let the sunlight in. Which will have the side effect of dusting the spawn and vampires, and coincidentally ending their domination of the council members.

[TRH]

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...

Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before. But then, the whole thing may have always been more symbolic than practical -- who would really try to control a council meeting this way, after all? They'd just get themselves in trouble with the law afterward. So nobody ever tested it, so it was never fixed (or maybe it was tested but nobody knew how to alter it anymore)... leaving us here. Oh my...

Whatever shenanigans may have occurred before, the dwarves didn't consider the possibility that fellow "dwarves" would be ready to put their entire race at stake for any reason. Why would they?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...

There is no spell that can detect a coerced vote, because in some sense, many votes can be described as coerced. And it does protect against domination - that's the first ring.


Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before.

It feels like a compromise: some dwarves wanted to have powerful spellcasters as their bodyguards, so they need a place inside the defences where they can still cast.

Grey Wolf

[Mad Humanist]

I think this has been suggested before at least to some extent.

I think the order will smash a hole in the top of the chamber. Maybe sunlight will destroy the vampires (or maybe the still have protection). However then they can cast into the chamber. Roy will protect the spell casters.

[Nith]

Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Brilliant, yet again, thanks :smallsmile:

[TRH]

Oh, right, and I'm sure Gontor is thrilled to finally encounter some doors and walls that behave as nature intended.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well hopefully this answers the complaints that people had about the vampires' plan.

Hahahaha!

You must be new around here :smalltongue:


Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

Maybe some that arrived before the vampires did? The vampires only really need to dominate 50%+1, so if a few are already there undominated, that doesn't stop their plans.

Grey Wolf

[Becca Stareyes]

So, who gets to decide which is the main proposal and how it is worded? Is that set already?

Because if you describe the defenses this well, it feels like the resolution should come from an unexpected direction, rather than trying to rules-lawyer the defenses.

[Sapphire Guard]

Hoping whatever happens inside will be verbal. The Elders straight up making saving throws rather than destroy the world under domination would be my favourite outcome.

[Ramza00]

Elan gets in and uses an illusion spell to mimic the sound of the vampires and give them new orders? Elan has used major image before so I think it should work.

The illusion is not interacting with the people directly, and it has concentration effect so Elan can cast the spell outside and then maintain it via concentration.

So the only question is how does Elan get into the middle chamber past the first barrier which is Orange? How would it interact if Elan was polymorph prior to passing the barrier? The polymorph will be dispelled but will Elan be able to cross the barrier during this time or will it make it anti dwarf only effect kick in after the dispelled Elan?

[Windscion]

Is anyone clear on how closely Greg read those rules? Because if Durkon gets stoned, it would be bad.
OTOH, if he smashes one wall then stands outside and throws his hammer inside while Roy throws his sword, they can pretty much ignore the effect of the wards. Plus Haley's arrows and who knows that V might be able to do.
So really, nice plan ex2-arch -- provided no high level parties are around to siege engine the walls.

[Sniffnoy]

There is no spell that can detect a coerced vote, because in some sense, many votes can be described as coerced. And it does protect against domination - that's the first ring.

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!

[denthor]

Can someone in detail explain holes and walls how it relates to orange and blue.

I am at a loss

[Verappo]

That cackle makes me wonder if there's at least an evil laugh per book by now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!

Your point? Because mine was "if your turn to stone if magic decides your vote was coerced, there are a lot of statues of former heads of clan in that room, and a lot of clans very angry about it".

"Coerced" could be interpreted to mean anything from "threatened two days before the meeting was called" to "against their better judgement at the last minute". In the real world, that doesn't matter because if it comes to it, a judge, well, judges. But magic is not a judge, its a set of rules, and rules have a way of producing unintended consequences. Which in this case would be deadly.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Hahahaha!

You must be new around here :smalltongue:


Yeah, I'm not really believing it myself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can someone in detail explain holes and walls how it relates to orange and blue.

I am at a loss

The video game Portal involves creating holes in walls, in orange in blue. And once created, they are connected, so you enter one and leave through the other one.
Jossed

Grey Wolf

[Grey Watcher]

The vampires have no incentive to make a stand outside the blue barrier at this point, to my understanding. So drawing them out and dusting them may not be so easy unless they do the Magic Circle/Antimagic Field plan I suggested above.

I wasn't necessarily thinking the Order would find a way to draw them out. Just that, once within the orange barrier, one potential tactic is to just go on the offensive and destroy the vampires before the vote happens, rather than trying to find a way break the domination more directly. Still, interested to see how this will play out.

[ratfox]

The rule is: if we get to know the plan in advance, it will fail. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!
Okay. Suppose there's a rule like that.

What good would it do?

"The Council voted Yes" will get passed to Dvalin (if the vote simply goes ahead as the vampires have planned, which of course it won't).

Can someone in detail explain holes and walls how it relates to orange and blue.

I am at a loss
It's a reference to the Portal computer game.

[Xyril]

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...



The former bit would be easy, since it's pretty black and white whether domination or a similar effect is in play. You can simply implement a system where you apply a standard battery of divinations before each vote, and allow others to lodge a formal accusation that triggers specific testing--for example, if someone claims you are under an undetectable enchantment of some sort, they could subject you to being dispelled and see if that changes anything.

Coercion is harder--even in real life, there's no bright line where you can say "This is enough external pressure that you really can't exert meaningful free will." In a world where magical or divine forces have the power to subtly alter your thinking, I imagine it would only be harder.

For example, I believe it is beyond debate to say that Durkon was not in control of Durkula's actions in his body--at least, no more responsible than any sentient being can be over another. However, what about the vampire? When he absorbed all of Durkon's memories at once, you could argue that they overrode his free will, but you could also legitimately argue that his decisions were the not unexpected response of a free-willed being (one specifically designed to be very similar to Durkon) to "living" the same experience Durkon did. It becomes even more grey before that point, where Durkon is able to more subtly manipulate his thinking by exposing him to specific memories. If you expose someone to new information and that changes his mind--and his vote--is that coercion? Does it change your answer if the way you convey that information is supernatural?

[The Giant]

Orange and blue. Subliminal portal tribute or just a coincidence?

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

[bc56]

Ok, so the barrier prevents you from casting Dispel Magic on a creature in the room.
What if you cast it on the barrier?

Also,
"Bwee hee hee!" doesn't have nearly the same narrative weight as "Bwa ha ha!" It sounds like the vampire is giggling rather than laughing maniacally.

[Resileaf]

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

You would be right about the reason Valve used those colors for Portal. They explain in their dev commentary their design choices for a lot of things in-game, and the portal colors is explained as such, for contrast and so it would always be clear which portal you are using and where it is, further helped by the level design rarely using those two colors.

[Fyraltari]

Can the order Dominate a vampire inside this corridor to make them countermand these orders?

Also, looks like the Exarch just drank. More vampires?

[2D8HP]

"Bweeheeheehee" instead of "Mwahahaha"?

:eek:

Truly the most vile evil!

[Mad Humanist]

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

Okay now that this is acknowledged to be a purely coincidental reference to a video game, does that count as a reference to a video game?

[Resileaf]

Can the order Dominate a vampire inside this corridor to make them countermand these orders?

Also, looks like the Exarch just drank. More vampires?

I think his teeth are still red from the thralls he created in front of the Temple of Thor. They were that color before he left. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html)

[Seward]

OK, here's the deal.

Durkon knows the plan and yet feels totally fine with resting until Dawn to get spells back instead of heading this off before they've subverted enough votes.

Which means there is a counter the 3 vampires haven't thought of that is within the capability of the OOTS+allies to carry out without much chance of failure.

Leaving aside the gigantic narrative fail that is explaining your perfect plan on camera which also dooms the plan itself, except when Rich is is deliberately deconstructing the trope.

To pick just two possible options.

1. V knows antimagic shell. That will both suppress domination and any attempt to turn anybody to stone within that area.

2. Circle of protection from evil moves with the target, and Durkon can easily pray for enough of those for everybody within the OOTS. This will both prevent domination of party members (With Durkon's caster level, much harder to dispel than a level 1 protection from law wand spell) and simply moving close to anybody dominated will suppress the domination without actually attacking or casting any spells.

Personally Like option 1 because it also allows the party's physical attackers to attack the 3 vampires while still protecting them from being turnd to stone, and the only counter is for the vampires to physically get into the antimagic shell, which suppresses all of their SU abilities and likely results in them being staked or beheaded by Roy and/or Belkar.

[Dion]

Gontor cackles “Bwee hee hee hee?”

That’s not an evil cackle! That’s a Michael Jackson song.

[Leftour]

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

Wow, thanks! I I did not expect to get a definite answer, yet here i stand corrected.

Many thanks for your work from the other side of the Atlantic by the way :D.

[Resileaf]

OK, here's the deal.

Durkon knows the plan and yet feels totally fine with resting until Dawn to get spells back instead of heading this off before they've subverted enough votes.

Which means there is a counter the 3 vampires haven't thought of that is within the capability of the OOTS+allies to carry out without much chance of failure.

Technically, the vote doesn't happen until all the clans are assembled and at the appointed hour, so as long as the vampires are defeated before the vote takes place, the mind controlled elders will not have to vote the way the vampires want.

[JavaScribe]

So is Dvalin unable to detect that the council members have been mind controlled, or are the vampires counting on him to not care?

[Verappo]

"Bweeheeheehee" instead of "Mwahahaha"?

:eek:

Truly the most vile evil!

Yup! That's the cackle of the minion, not the evil master

[facw]

So it doesn't really sound like the blue barrier actually prevents Durkon (or anyone else) from dispelling? He would be turned to stone (and I guess vulnerable), but it seems like he would be able to get the spell off, in which case the vampires wouldn't be able to re-dominate anyone. The council could then vote no (any attempt to interfere in the chamber would result in more petrification, and he would be unstoned.

[dtilque]

Elan's not a dwarf, how is he getting in to sing his song?

He could sing from outside the orange barrier at the guards just inside, and perhaps the ones further in. I don't know if they could do anything, but it's worth a shot. For that matter, V should be able to cast Dispels on any within view from outside.

Well the barrier may prevent either or both these things, and in fact, is likely to. That's not how Gontula described it but it may have other effects than the ones he was concerned with. So it's really going to be pretty much all up to Durkon and Minrah. It's their time to shine.

[Jasdoif]

Can the order Dominate a vampire inside this corridor to make them countermand these orders?No; undead (like vampires) are immune to mind-affecting effects (like domination).

Of course, following verbal instructions is vulnerable to subverting the context (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1800/fc01780.htm).

[Seward]

Technically, the vote doesn't happen until all the clans are assembled and at the appointed hour, so as long as the vampires are defeated before the vote takes place, the mind controlled elders will not have to vote the way the vampires want.

Yes, but if the blue area could really stop the Order from intervening Durkon would want to pre-empt the mind control (Because once enough votes, killing the 3 vamps doesn't solve the problem).

The problem with my option #2 is that you still have to be a dwarf to enter the blue area (antimagic shell also defeats that problem), so you have to send just Durkon, Minrah and maybe Hilgya in to get close to the elders and it doesn't help you actually kill the vampires unless you can launch attacks from outside the blue area (which of course, Haley, Roy and maybe V can all possibly do, if they aren't being dominated etc)

[Sword-Geass]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?


Nope, we have never established such a thing. In fact, it's the other way around, the domination stays even if the vampire (or caster) dies. The effect only ends after 1 day per caster level, which in this case means 12 days. This also means that any order given by the dominator will be carried on for 12 days. Of course if the vampire dies he will no longer be able to give new orders, which is not an issue since he has already ordered to follow any other order from a vampire.

[Roderick_BR]

So, some big brain built the orange and the blue barriers very appart. With the blue one INSIDE the orange one...
Yeah, the designer wanted a back door for his own purposes back then.

[Resileaf]

So it doesn't really sound like the blue barrier actually prevents Durkon (or anyone else) from dispelling? He would be turned to stone (and I guess vulnerable), but it seems like he would be able to get the spell off, in which case the vampires wouldn't be able to re-dominate anyone. The council could then vote no (any attempt to interfere in the chamber would result in more petrification, and he would be unstoned.

I believe the point is that the room's protections will detect that the dispel magic spell is being cast, and who its target is, and will stone the spellcaster instantly before he's finished casting (think the defensive runes in Xykon's room when V attacks him).

[Dion]

So is Dvalin unable to detect that the council members have been mind controlled, or are the vampires counting on him to not care?

In my personal head canon, there are two possibilities.

Perhaps he has made some prior agreement to never interfere with the vote, and so us oath bound to accept their decision regardless of how they arrived at it.

Or, he’s oath bound to accept their decision, and he will break that oath, reject the vote, and go to Hel.

[Resileaf]

Nope, we have never established such a thing. In fact, it's the other way around, the domination stays even if the vampire (or caster) dies. The effect only ends after 1 day per caster level, which in this case means 12 days. This also means that any order given by the dominator will be carried on for 12 days. Of course if the vampire dies he will no longer be able to give new orders, which is not an issue since he has already ordered to follow any other order from a vampire.

Greg and the female vampire's dominations of the OotS are dispelled upon death.

[EmperorSarda]

Gontor cackles “Bwee hee hee hee?”

That’s not an evil cackle! That’s a Michael Jackson song.

Or Jack the Pumpkin King (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHodA5DwEhM).

[facw]

I believe the point is that the room's protections will detect that the dispel magic spell is being cast, and who its target is, and will stone the spellcaster instantly before he's finished casting (think the defensive runes in Xykon's room when V attacks him).

Could be, but as described it sounds like they actually to use a spell, not simply attempt to use a spell. That might just be simplification for the purpose of not having speech bubbles be legalese, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some strict limitations in place here.

[Corian]

Ah, so we need to get Thirden there (or polymorph Elan)?

Good call on Thirden, if he's of a high enough level; for the record, V has polymorph, so that sounds possible.

[pendell]

Very cool. I want to personally thank Rich for putting in the homework. This , to my mind, definitely takes the idiot ball away from the dwarves and show's that the villains efforts are earned, not simply the product of author fiat.

Well, okay, everything in the strip is author fiat, but it is less obvious and more logical. Thanks!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Leftour]

Technically, the vote doesn't happen until all the clans are assembled and at the appointed hour, so as long as the vampires are defeated before the vote takes place, the mind controlled elders will not have to vote the way the vampires want.

The OOTS could also try warn some clan elders before even reaching the hall, thus preventing them from assembling altogether.

[Resileaf]

The OOTS could also try warn some clan elders before even reaching the hall, thus preventing them from assembling altogether.

I assume the vote takes place even if there are elders that have not showed up. Maybe the vote needs quorum, but maybe not.

[Psychronia]

For some reason, I feel like I'm listening to security plans in a heist movie.

It's all very thorough and impressive, so how is the cast going to crack it?

[C_Myriel]

Nope, we have never established such a thing. In fact, it's the other way around, the domination stays even if the vampire (or caster) dies. The effect only ends after 1 day per caster level, which in this case means 12 days. This also means that any order given by the dominator will be carried on for 12 days. Of course if the vampire dies he will no longer be able to give new orders, which is not an issue since he has already ordered to follow any other order from a vampire.

You're 100% correct as per DnD 3.5 rules afaik, but OotS isn't following that. 1131 shows this very clearly; Hilgya ceases to be dominated the moment Undurkon is destroyed.

[WindStruck]

Plot twist. Voting "yes" on the main proposition might not mean what the vampire thinks it means. The main proposition could be worded, "Do we give the world another chance?"

Once that happens, there may be a lot of confusion and the vampires will be completely exposed for what they are and what they are doing when they attempt to give verbal orders to correct the issue. This is probably the best time the Order could step in to stop them.

I'm wondering if just displaying you holy symbol forcefully is against dwarven law? Probably not.

[Fyraltari]

I count at least ten council guards and five bodyguards dominated. I wonder how the order plans on avoiding killing them.

Also there are people already inside the blue zone who are not dominated. Probably a Cleric charged with channeling Dvalin.


Yup! That's the cackle of the minion, not the evil master

Fitting from a proud self proclaimed natural follower.

[Mad Humanist]

You're 100% correct as per DnD 3.5 rules afaik, but OotS isn't following that. 1131 shows this very clearly; Hilgya ceases to be dominated the moment Undurkon is destroyed.

May be Durkon silently released Hilgya just before the stake went through his heart. That would actually make sense.

[Ruck]

I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.

[KrankenWagon]

You're 100% correct as per DnD 3.5 rules afaik, but OotS isn't following that.

Huh, I've always played that if the spell was dismissable it does go away after the caster's death, but a quick google + look in my PH tells me that was a house rule. The more you know.

[Resileaf]

I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.

Yup, I'm totally down with that if it's what happens. Bring in the thundah.

[Ganbatte]

So is Dvalin unable to detect that the council members have been mind controlled, or are the vampires counting on him to not care?

Either way.... bleh.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/520bc04fe4b03863c7f8a659/t/55e5c562e4b026b50ba869fd/1441121634874/

[Peelee]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

Also, the Sudden Skylight hypothesis gains more traction. If we can't get the rest of the Order in through the door....
I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.
The Church of the Sudden Skylight gladly accepts all converts, and harbors no ill will to those unwilling to fully commit to conversion.:smallwink:

See, this is where a simple "dominated or coerced votes don't count" might be more effective than magical defense. Oy...

Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before. But then, the whole thing may have always been more symbolic than practical -- who would really try to control a council meeting this way, after all? They'd just get themselves in trouble with the law afterward. So nobody ever tested it, so it was never fixed (or maybe it was tested but nobody knew how to alter it anymore)... leaving us here. Oh my...
I, too, object to any defense that is not perfect.

Hahahaha!

You must be new around here :smalltongue:
Indeed, I was reading through it thinking "this is literally what I was saying to people complaining after the last strip went up!"

There's no such spell in the real world either, yet we have laws like this all the same!
Indeed, and any grievances about such laws being broken are put forth significantly after the fact, which would do a very large amount of nothing in this instance.

[sillymel]

So, I got some questions. What exactly counts as attacking or using a spell or supernatural ability? Can you attack or use a spell on an object in the barrier? Does using a non-attack area of effect spell on a point in the barrier so the area of effect happens to include a creature count as using a spell on a creature? Are even healing spells banned?

[Kish]

So, I got some questions. What exactly counts as attacking or using a spell or supernatural ability? Can you attack or use a spell on an object in the barrier? Does using a non-attack area of effect spell on a point in the barrier so the area of effect happens to include a creature count as using a spell on a creature? Are even healing spells banned?
There's one way to find out the answers to any of these questions.

It involves risking petrification.

And it at least a couple cases, gambling on "it doesn't actually mean what it says" while risking petrification.

[Quartz]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

[Peelee]

So is Dvalin unable to detect that the council members have been mind controlled, or are the vampires counting on him to not care?

You're assuming Dvalin will be physically in the council chamber, then?

[satorian]

Both books and SRD refer to "undead creatures", so undead are RAW creatures.

Healing spells are definitely using a spell on a creature (they are also an attack, since you have to initiate a touch attack to land one on an unwilling subject).

Turn Undead is a supernatural ability.

AoE is less cut and dry, though I would bet that "attack with a fireball" is somewhere in the 3.5 rules.

I don't think the way around this is going to come from loopholes inside the room.

[Sniffnoy]

Your point? Because mine was "if your turn to stone if magic decides your vote was coerced, there are a lot of statues of former heads of clan in that room, and a lot of clans very angry about it".

"Coerced" could be interpreted to mean anything from "threatened two days before the meeting was called" to "against their better judgement at the last minute". In the real world, that doesn't matter because if it comes to it, a judge, well, judges. But magic is not a judge, its a set of rules, and rules have a way of producing unintended consequences. Which in this case would be deadly.

Grey Wolf

Oh, I see, you were thinking about the effects of the law-spell. Whereas I was thinking of the effect on Dvalin's vote -- if the council's vote is invalid, then Dvalin would ignore it. (Admittedly, this might require quickly finding a dwarven judge to issue an injunction. :P ) Yes I'm assuming you would not both have such a law and such a spell.

Though in this case it's not actually deadly, as the effect of the spell is temporary. Actually it's not clear that the law would turn anyone to stone at all -- I'm not talking about a law that casting a coerced vote is illegal, but rather a law that a coerced vote is invalid, i.e., doesn't count towards the total. The only way to violate that, I guess, would be for the council chair to record the tally incorrectly. And again the result is still temporary.

[Ganbatte]

You're assuming Dvalin will be physically in the council chamber, I assume?

Why would you assume he's assuming that?

[Sniffnoy]

The former bit would be easy, since it's pretty black and white whether domination or a similar effect is in play. You can simply implement a system where you apply a standard battery of divinations before each vote, and allow others to lodge a formal accusation that triggers specific testing--for example, if someone claims you are under an undetectable enchantment of some sort, they could subject you to being dispelled and see if that changes anything.

Coercion is harder--even in real life, there's no bright line where you can say "This is enough external pressure that you really can't exert meaningful free will." In a world where magical or divine forces have the power to subtly alter your thinking, I imagine it would only be harder.

For example, I believe it is beyond debate to say that Durkon was not in control of Durkula's actions in his body--at least, no more responsible than any sentient being can be over another. However, what about the vampire? When he absorbed all of Durkon's memories at once, you could argue that they overrode his free will, but you could also legitimately argue that his decisions were the not unexpected response of a free-willed being (one specifically designed to be very similar to Durkon) to "living" the same experience Durkon did. It becomes even more grey before that point, where Durkon is able to more subtly manipulate his thinking by exposing him to specific memories. If you expose someone to new information and that changes his mind--and his vote--is that coercion? Does it change your answer if the way you convey that information is supernatural?

Well this is what judges are for, so while the council is voting the Order goes and finds a judge and tries to get an injunction issued so that the result can't be counted as final until such issues are decided. Obviously. :)

[dps]

I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.

I don't doubt that removing the roof of the chamber and letting in the sunshine would work, but is there enough time for that?

[Peelee]

Why would you assume he's assuming that?

Because Dvalin is a demigod, meaning we cannot ascribe the exact powers that full gods like Thor has, so despite your insistence he could easily not be able to simply "look down" and see what's going on (and, given that Hel, a full god, seems to think the plan will work, and she knows more about the world they're in than you do, I would gamble against anything you have to say vis a vis the current plan only working due to idiot balls or plot holes), we have no idea whether he can or not.

Of course, you ignore "the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council," so I'm not terribly invested in thinking you'll change your mind, but hey, I can still lob it over the plate for you even if you refuse to swing.

[Fyraltari]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

He could have tried Sending to him when she brought back news.

[Resileaf]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

Well since he was a thrall, and thralls become free-willed when their master dies, it seems likely that he would have felt himself becoming free-willed with the death of Greg.
Alternatively, he's assuming, or he confirmed it magically.

[Ganbatte]

Because Dvalin is a demigod, meaning we cannot ascribe the exact powers that full gods like Thor has, so despite your insistence he could easily not be able to simply "look down" and see what's going on (and, given that Hel, a full god, seems to think the plan will work, and she knows more about the world they're in than you do, I would gamble against anything you have to say vis a vis the current plan only working due to idiot balls or plot holes), we have no idea whether he can or not.

Of course, you ignore "the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council," so I'm not terribly invested in thinking you'll change your mind, but hey, I can still lob it over the plate for you even if you refuse to swing.

I don't quite understand why you would react so aggressively to a simple question, while also putting lots of stuff I never said in my mouth.

You made an assumption that has no grounds, as Dvalin doesn't necessarily need to be there physically since he is a divine presence.
Also you're incorrect, there's no indication that the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council, at least not by the informations given to us by the comic.
These are just assumptions of yours, which I do not share.

A coerced vote is not the will of the voter, after all.

If Dvalin is not utterly inept at his oath he should have a modicum of due diligence in making sure no manipulation is at hand, regardless of the safeguards the mortal put in place. Apparently he does not, which doesn't remove the idiot ball in the least to me.

[Peelee]

I don't quite understand why you would react so aggressively to a simple question, while also putting lots of stuff I never said in my mouth.

You mistake tiredness for aggression. Also, everything I claimed you said or believe you have said, just not in this thread. I'm uninterested in semantic games on whether you've said as much in this specific thread or not.

[Psyren]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

There is one that we already know works in OotS - victims can free (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html) themselves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) from a dominate, no magic required. So all the OotS have to do is give them a nudge, or convince them that what they're about to vote on would be against their nature as dwarves - which doesn't seem that hard, and a good setup for a dramatic speech by one of the order (likely Durkon or possibly Hilgya.)

[gallagher]

How deliciously evil! Wonderful comic!

[Caerulea]

I feel like those boundaries should be in the other order.

—Caerulea

[mjasghar]

Dusting the vampires before the vote actually happens would work. I think we've established that a domination ends if the vampire who initiated it is destroyed, right?

The said, I'm sure there are more interesting solutions as well.

Also, the Sudden Skylight hypothesis gains more traction. If we can't get the rest of the Order in through the door....
Barriers like that are usually domes or even spheres depending on wording

[elros]

Between this chamber and the Godsmoot, we are seeing how lawful people can be beaten by their own rules. Nice!

[Jasdoif]

Well this is what judges are for, so while the council is voting the Order goes and finds a judge and tries to get an injunction issued so that the result can't be counted as final until such issues are decided. Obviously. :)Stalling the Godsmoot/OotS until the Snarl gets out when Team Evil messes with the last Gate could be the actual plan, or an accepted/tolerable alternative.

[Ganbatte]

You mistake tiredness for aggression. Also, everything I claimed you said or believe you have said, just not in this thread. I'm uninterested in semantic games on whether you've said as much in this specific thread or not.


Of course, you ignore "the will of the council is represented by the vote of the council," so I'm not terribly invested in thinking you'll change your mind, but hey, I can still lob it over the plate for you even if you refuse to swing.

There's no clear statement in the story that the will of the council equals the vote of the council, this is just an assumption on your part and base logic would say otherwise, as hypnosis is not one's own will and if it was counted as such they wouldn't have put the anti-spellcasting barriers up in the first place.

I am swinging, and hitting the ball too. You just refuse to run after it.

No conclusive evidence has been provided by the comic so far on this matter so claiming that I'm "ignoring" stuff that doesn't exist is putting words in my mouth.

[mjasghar]

There is no spell that can detect a coerced vote, because in some sense, many votes can be described as coerced. And it does protect against domination - that's the first ring.



It feels like a compromise: some dwarves wanted to have powerful spellcasters as their bodyguards, so they need a place inside the defences where they can still cast.

Grey Wolf

Also if someone has some medical incident you can take them outside for healing

[mjasghar]

Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?
Chekhov’s laugh
The Order force the vampires outside the blue barrier just before they order the delegates to vote for destruction
Exarch about to get die shouts order to vote for destruction and then remembers barrier blocks sound

[Xyril]

Well this is what judges are for, so while the council is voting the Order goes and finds a judge and tries to get an injunction issued so that the result can't be counted as final until such issues are decided. Obviously. :)

LOL, fair enough. I wasn't a huge Celia fan though, so I'd rather avoid creating an excuse to bring her back.

[gatemansgc]

so only durkon and hilgya are going to be able to enter. and minrah, if she's raised in time.

[SavageWombat]

I was hoping the puzzle would be solved by the forumites already - or at least a couple/three good possibilities.

[gatemansgc]

I was hoping the puzzle would be solved by the forumites already - or at least a couple/three good possibilities.

there will be some dang good theories by the time the next comic is actually posted lol

[Ridureyu]

The vampires not having a loophole in place to attack or kill Durkon/Hilgya/Minrah/The baby is going to bite them in the ass... unless they have a few spares they want to sacrifice. You know, each one vcould only get one attack in, but the good guys wouldn't be able to retaliate.

[tufttugger]

Can't the vampires just be killed to break their domination? Who needs dispel magic...

Edit: Nevermind, already brought up.

[Ironsmith]

Curiously absent detail: Gontor doesn't say that the blue barrier prevents magic or attacks from working, only that the instigator would be turned to stone should they attempt it. So all it takes is one Greater Dispel Magic and Hel's plan is foiled, as long as whoever does the casting doesn't mind being out of commission for a minute while the meeting is wrapped up.

[Snaaake]

I think a Bardic Song of Freedom would work. It produces a magical effect, but it is not classified as either a spell or supernatural effect. It just falls under the category of bardic music.

The 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) says it's a spell-like ability. All of Bardic Music is either (Sp)ell-like or (Su)pernatural. Of course, as others have pointed out, Elan can't get inside to use it, and Song of Freedom only has a range of 30 feet.


My guess for the plot solution here is this part of the description of Dominate Person (which the vampire ability uses):

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

Say, an obviously powerful priest of Thor we all know and love, complete with a forgotten holy relic, shows up at the council, and something happens in the ensuing chaos which would be against the nature of the dwarves attending the council. At least part of them would snap out, the question is, how many? Incidentally, this is an additional reason why it's a good thing the evil laughter and gloating can't be heard inside, as that might immediately snap some dominated dwarves away from voting yes on the main proposal, since they would now know it's going to lead to "Hel's final victory".


There is one that we already know works in OotS - victims can free (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html) themselves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) from a dominate, no magic required. So all the OotS have to do is give them a nudge, or convince them that what they're about to vote on would be against their nature as dwarves - which doesn't seem that hard, and a good setup for a dramatic speech by one of the order (likely Durkon or possibly Hilgya.)

So basically that, yes, but I would argue that Roy making the save against the domination at the Godsmoot was just him making the initial saving throw, not getting dominated and then breaking free. Thanh's case is a textbook example of breaking domination due to being ordered to do something against your nature though.

[Ganbatte]

What about items, by the way?
Like Haley and all her wands, what if she gives Durkon or Hilgiya a wand of Break Enchantment or something?

[facw]

Well since he was a thrall, and thralls become free-willed when their master dies, it seems likely that he would have felt himself becoming free-willed with the death of Greg.
Alternatively, he's assuming, or he confirmed it magically.

Why are you assuming he was a thrall? He acted and sounded nothing like Durkon as a thrall. And given that Hel created his soul, it's not clear why Durkon wouldn't release him. IIRC, there's a limit on how many vampires Durkon could have in his thrall, so from that perspective releasing Gontor would make more sense as well, since they could control a greater number of vampire underlings.

[gatemansgc]

The vampires not having a loophole in place to attack or kill Durkon/Hilgya/Minrah/The baby is going to bite them in the ass... unless they have a few spares they want to sacrifice. You know, each one vcould only get one attack in, but the good guys wouldn't be able to retaliate.

it's lucky none of them seem to know the vampire acceleration spell, cause they could have vamped that daughter they had killed and had another thorn in the side of the good guys.

[Gift Jeraff]

How does the Exarch know Durkula died? The vampiress in blue fled before Belkar staked Durkula.

Either the Exarch was a thrall and became free-willed (seems possible since he appears to have matured significantly like how Durkon did when Malack was destroyed) or he learned from the dark-skinned female vampire (who was present at the battle versus Durkon and fled when Belkar slew Ponchula).

[Sebastian]

Both books and SRD refer to "undead creatures", so undead are RAW creatures.

Healing spells are definitely using a spell on a creature (they are also an attack, since you have to initiate a touch attack to land one on an unwilling subject).

Turn Undead is a supernatural ability.

AoE is less cut and dry, though I would bet that "attack with a fireball" is somewhere in the 3.5 rules.

I don't think the way around this is going to come from loopholes inside the room.

What about spraying holy water around? it is water, it's harmless. And if it happen to hit some vampire, well, accidents happens.and what are they even doing in the council room? :tongue:

but what I think it will happen is that Durkon enter the inner chamber and make a stirring speech in Thor's name that give the council members another saving throw against Domination, with a big bonus. And at point the vampires can do nothing, they can't attack or use dominate again and if they exit the inner chamber must face two high level clerics, and the other dwarves. They are screwed I think it would be thematically appropriate, and very OOTS-ish.

[truthwatcher]

Wait, Exarch specifically said casting a spell on a creature. So is there a reason Durkon couldn't simply cast Dispel Magic as an area dispel? Technically, he isn't targeting any creature, he is targeting an area.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it's lucky none of them seem to know the vampire acceleration spell, cause they could have vamped that daughter they had killed and had another thorn in the side of the good guys.

Clerics don't need to know spells, just know of them and pray for it from their deity - and we know from Ponchula that the spell can be prayed for

Grey Wolf

[tyckspoon]

Chekhov’s laugh
The Order force the vampires outside the blue barrier just before they order the delegates to vote for destruction
Exarch about to get die shouts order to vote for destruction and then remembers barrier blocks sound

This is, presumably, what the prior instruction about 'vote Yes on the main topic' is for. The thing about 'obey verbal instructions from a Vampire' is likely just to make sure they have a fallback in case any relevant additional business is bought under discussion, or maybe if they need to try to force argument/discussion to end and bring the actual "should we destroy the world" topic to a vote. I can pretty readily imagine somebody realizing what's going on and trying to tie up the council in procedural/parliamentary rules nonsense because the protections and rules regarding the council don't permit more direct action. ("I am now going to read the entire list of dwarves I personally know who will be adversely affected by destroying the world.." -proceeds to filibuster by reading off the entire living roster of their extended clan-"... and that is why my vote is No.")

[Dion]

Barriers like that are usually domes or even spheres depending on wording

But they’re unlikely to block sunlight :-)

[Jasdoif]

Wait, Exarch specifically said casting a spell on a creature. So is there a reason Durkon couldn't simply cast Dispel Magic as an area dispel? Technically, he isn't targeting any creature, he is targeting an area.When the words "technically" and "law" apply to the same scenario, it normally comes down to whether or not the law has bylaws that address the technicality. And given the trivial ease with which "a spell that affects a creature is considered a spell cast on that creature" could be a bylaw, I would advise against betting on the technicality.

[Synesthesy]

So, everything the heroes need to to is to talk to whoever directs the vote and make the question be "do you want to save the world from destruction or nay?"


-censored joke about Italian internal politic-

[Fyraltari]

So, everything the heroes need to to is to talk to whoever directs the vote and make the question be "do you want to save the world from destruction or nay?"



They don’t have Dvalin’s phone number.

[Xyril]

Clerics don't need to know spells, just know of them and pray for it from their deity - and we know from Ponchula that the spell can be prayed for

Grey Wolf

But how does that square with Durkula needing alone time to research the spell from Malaack's staff?

[Dion]

Five quataloos on: council votes to say “it is our will to destroy the world”, Dvalin breaks his oath and decides to *NOT* follow the will of the council. Dvalin is dishonored and goes to Hel.

(Five quataloos is about $2.50, right?)

Edit: oops. Added a word in **

[Fyraltari]

But how does that square with Durkula needing alone time to research the spell from Malaack's staff?

Clerics only have access to the spells their deity grants them. Hel did not know the spell in the staff until Durkon* was done researching it and so couldn’t grant it.

[Dion]

Clerics only have access to the spells their deity grants them. Hel did not know the spell in the staff until Durkon* was done researching it.

Yep. If falls under the house rule of “My cleric wants to cast this spell I found in Dragon magazine. No, it’s not in the PH.”

The DM gets to basically make up any rule he wants to handle it.

[Xyril]

Clerics only have access to the spells their deity grants them. Hel did not know the spell in the staff until Durkon* was done researching it and so couldn’t grant it.

Ah, I was thinking it might be something like that.

So that implies that, for example, (flawed) Mass Death Ward became known to not only Durkon, but Thor, and any of Thor's clerics who know to ask for it, the moment Durkon finished learning it from, or developing it in collaboration with Malaack. (The latter also implying that Nergal and his followers gained that spell concurrently.)

I suppose that also explains why the Order was so surprised Veldrina had the slots but didn't know Resurrection--my assumption at the time was that it was such a vital clerical spell that any cleric would learn about as soon as they were able.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But how does that square with Durkula needing alone time to research the spell from Malaack's staff?

Rules about spell research were written with wizards in mind, so the rules are really unclear of how a clerical spell development works. In OotS, it seems it requires each individual deity to have one of their cleric figure it out but, once it is, it's available to all their other clerics.


I suppose that also explains why the Order was so surprised Veldrina had the slots but didn't know Resurrection--my assumption at the time was that it was such a vital clerical spell that any cleric would learn about as soon as they were able.

No, that's because Veldrina is not a cleric, but the deity magic equivalent of a sorcerer - she can cast more spells per day than a cleric (one assumes), but can only pray for a few pre-selected ones. That kind of caster doesn't waste her spells known with any non-urgent ones, in general, because you need the urgent ones at your fingertips and can always depend on scrolls and the like for anything that can wait (dead people seldom get deader so fast you need to have resurrection this very minute)

Grey Wolf

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno - I don't see being turned to stone stopping either Minrah or Durkon from casting dispell magic, unless that also disrupts the spell. I mean, they've already died - what's being temporarily turned to stone?

[tyckspoon]

So, everything the heroes need to to is to talk to whoever directs the vote and make the question be "do you want to save the world from destruction or nay?"


That seems like it would work - if you can't beat the situation, change the parameters of the situation. Subverting the pre-set instruction to break the vampires' plan has an appealing shape to it.

[Jasdoif]

I suppose that also explains why the Order was so surprised Veldrina had the slots but didn't know Resurrection--my assumption at the time was that it was such a vital clerical spell that any cleric would learn about as soon as they were able.Veldrina's not a cleric, she's a favored soul; she knows a very limited number of cleric spells of each level, in exchange for not having to decide in advance how many of each she can cast each day. Pretty much the same as the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer.

[Flame of Anor]

Neat defenses! If only they had managed a permanent protection from evil effect—but I suppose hind-Spot is natural 20/20. :smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Neat defenses! If only they had managed a permanent protection from evil effect—but I suppose hind-Spot is natural 20/20. :smalltongue:

It's a meeting for top-level politicians. I'd expect a fair number of them to be Evil, and would end with massive headaches from the experience.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Man, whoever came up with this orange/blue scheme really didn't think it through. Leaving a gap between undoing spells and barring spellcasting sounds like the sort of thing someone should have exploited before.
Notably, the prismatic wall spell, upon which these defenses seem loosely based, does not feature interstitial spaces between the various sub-walls.

[JavaScribe]

You're assuming Dvalin will be physically in the council chamber, then?
The gods have magical senses and at least occasional contact with their followers. It's certainly possible Dvalin isn't strong enough to sense the deception, isn't social enough to be warned by other involved gods like Thor, or sufficiently stuck on the letter of his oath for that to make no difference.

But I am not assuming he will be physically present in the chamber and am unclear on why you think I would be. I am simply curious about the details of how their plan is intended to work.

[Xyril]

Veldrina's not a cleric, she's a favored soul; she knows a very limited number of cleric spells of each level, in exchange for not having to decide in advance how many of each she can cast each day.


No, that's because Veldrina is not a cleric, but the deity magic equivalent of a sorcerer - she can cast more spells per day than a cleric (one assumes), but can only pray for a few pre-selected ones. That kind of caster doesn't waste her spells known with any non-urgent ones, in general, because you need the urgent ones at your fingertips and can always depend on scrolls and the like for anything that can wait (dead people seldom get deader so fast you need to have resurrection this very minute)

Grey Wolf

I know. My point is, when they thought she was a cleric, and she confirmed that she could cast Res-level spells, they assumed from that information that she must have it.

Err, just to clarify it a bit more in case it's necessary, the "she's not a cleric, she's the favored soul of her minor deity" was extra information (or more accurately, corrective information that refuted an assumption that they made) needed to explain an apparent inconsistency to Roy and Durkon*--that inconsistency being "Veldrina is a cleric with enough levels to cast Resurrection" and "Veldrina does not have access to Resurrection." The fact that Roy and Durkon* expected her to know have access Resurrection implied that they expected that most or all clerics (again, I know she wasn't a cleric, but Roy and Durkon* thought she was at time) who could have that spell would have that spell. At the time, I thought it was a matter of them not believing that a cleric would prioritize other spells of that level--Vel's comments about being "temple-certified" and having to "master" particular spells reinforced the idea of having to learn specific spells, even though the favored soul system is separate.

Thanks to both of you for sharing what you believed was new and relevant info for me, though. It's a situation where, much like Roy and Durkon, your motivations properly analyzed based on what you thought you knew at the time, and not based on the actual facts if they turn out a few panels later to be inconsistent with prior assumptions.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's a meeting for top-level politicians. I'd expect a fair number of them to be Evil, and would end with massive headaches from the experience.

Grey Wolf
If they can manage a permanent MCaE (PfE is single-target, not an area spell), they can also probably manage permanent MCaG, L, and C fields too. Still leaves the TN delegates with an advantage, but that's not such a bad thing from certain perspectives.

[Ruck]

Five quataloos on: council votes to say “it is our will to destroy the world”, Dvalin breaks his oath and decides to *NOT* follow the will of the council. Dvalin is dishonored and goes to Hel.

(Five quataloos is about $2.50, right?)

Edit: oops. Added a word in **

I'll take that bet, as I know of no procedure for an ascended demigod to go directly to Hel, let alone that this solution completely sidelines the Order. And I could use half a hamburger.

[Kish]

I'll take that bet if Dion wants to bet with gold pieces instead of "quatloos."

[Xyril]

I'll take that bet, as I know of no procedure for an ascended demigod to go directly to Hel, let alone that this solution completely sidelines the Order. And I could use half a hamburger.

That's an interesting question. Was Dvalin raised to demi-godhood while he was still alive, or was he deified after his death? I could see that making an important distinction--if the former, there's really no legitimate argument that he's one of the "dwarven dead," dishonored or not, but if the latter, then it raises the question of whether his deadness or his demi-godness take precedence.

For the sake of keeping the controversy in play, let's assume he died first. Then this also raises the question of whether being dishonored after his death matters. The rules for dwarves seems to be that they specifically have to die with honor--Durkon's mom, Minrah, and others specifically worried that raising a dwarf who died in combat opened up the risk that they die again, under less favorable circumstances, and punch their ticket straight to Hel. This strongly implies that the cumulative honor or dishonor of their lives doesn't matter that much--basically, dwarves try to be honorable all the time because they could die at any time. If you're honorable your whole life and die in a mining accident, you go to Hel; if you're mostly dishonorable, but die going after a tree, you go to Valhalla.

So if your honor before the moment of death doesn't matter all that much, can we really assume that your conduct after death matters either? Keep in mind, the examples of dishonorable deaths we were given haven't been moments where the dwarf in question exhibited any particularly bad traits--treachery, cowardice, cruelty, etc--they simply weren't actively being brave or honorable at that moment. Using that same standard, Dvalin must have had moments in his demi-god life where he was just hanging out, being fairly unremarkable; however, none of these have given Hel the opportunity to pull her lever on him.

[Gnoman]

What about items, by the way?
Like Haley and all her wands, what if she gives Durkon or Hilgiya a wand of Break Enchantment or something?

Casting from wands, staffs, scrolls, or magic pants is no different from casting from a spell slot. You're still casting a spell.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Turns out the vampires did their homework and figured out how to get around the defenses. What a surprise. I like the suggestion that the design might have been intentional to let some of the dwarves influence other dwarves. Also, the fact that only dwarves can enter will be a fun obstacle for the Order.

Also, love the detail in Gontor‘s teeth!

[Kish]

Casting from wands, staffs, scrolls, or magic pants is no different from casting from a spell slot. You're still casting a spell.
Indeed, this is kind of ironic. It appears to me that the complaints about the villains' schemes in this book have gone from "There shouldn't be a loophole like the rules not forbidding vampires from 1) existing, 2) stating evil intentions, and/or 3) attacking people who aren't Godsmoot representatives or their bodyguards" to "There should be really easy and obvious loopholes for the Order to use to get around not being allowed to attack or cast spells."

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, the fact that only dwarves can enter will be a fun obstacle for the Order.
Eh, it's nothing a few extended polymorph spells can't fix. Vaarsuvius has polymorph in her spellbook, knows Extend Spell, and can prepare 5 5th-level spells per day even without preparing the spells in her higher-level spell slots. Extended polymorph would last 34 minutes. Plus it'd be a nice chance for some visual humor, showing Roy, Elan, Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius as dwarves.

Fortunately, the "only dwarves may pass" ward precedes the "dispels all magic" ward.Oops, no it doesn't, the two are one and the same. Never mind then. Durkon, Hilgya, and possibly Sigdi going in alone it is, then.

[Xyril]

Turns out the vampires did their homework and figured out how to get around the defenses. What a surprise. I like the suggestion that the design might have been intentional to let some of the dwarves influence other dwarves. Also, the fact that only dwarves can enter will be a fun obstacle for the Order.


My first thought when folks pointed out the flaw was that maybe the dwarves are like humans when it comes to self-driving cars--they don't like to take the human (or in this case, dwarven) factor out of the equation, and so they created a small space where they could post independently-thinking guards on the off-chance that they'll need dwarven-intervention between the dispelling and the lock down. Sure, the logical thing to do would be to use magic-capable guards, or to lock down all magic but not all violence in that in between space, but as others have noted, the more logical thing to do would be to avoid that space altogether.

[briantmeyer]

If I were trying to stop the vote, I would be thinking of using the 2nd level silence spell. Probably one of the most old school "cleric" spells in the spell lists. And dwarves definitely are strong silent types.

Its one thing to disrupt the domination, but it's another to disrupt the dwarves ability to hear orders.

[Xyril]

Indeed, this is kind of ironic. It appears to me that the complaints about the villains' schemes in this book have gone from "There shouldn't be a loophole like the rules not forbidding vampires from 1) existing, 2) stating evil intentions, and/or 3) attacking people who aren't Godsmoot representatives or their bodyguards" to "There should be really easy and obvious loopholes for the Order to use to get around not being allowed to attack or cast spells."

I don't think that's a fair characterization. Trying to find a loophole either way is a fun pursuit--one that could potentially lead to a fun prediction about the next strips--but I'm not sure anybody would be particularly happy if they actually found a loophole that works--particularly if it ends up feeling particularly obvious or contrived.

It's like folks who spend a lot of time nit-picking their favorite fandom for inconsistencies--they don't want there to be inconsistencies in the canon, but they also don't want to be blithely unaware of any that might exist.

[Jason]

Well with a setup like that obviously someone is going to break the law and be petrified. Since it was said to be temporary my guess is it will be one of the good guys. Since it involves breaking dwarven law my bet is that it will be Durkon, always the least likely person to act against Dwarven law.

[Jasdoif]

That's an interesting question. Was Dvalin raised to demi-godhood while he was still alive, or was he deified after his death? I could see that making an important distinction--if the former, there's really no legitimate argument that he's one of the "dwarven dead," dishonored or not, but if the latter, then it raises the question of whether his deadness or his demi-godness take precedence.

For the sake of keeping the controversy in play, let's assume he died first. Then this also raises the question of whether being dishonored after his death matters. The rules for dwarves seems to be that they specifically have to die with honor--Durkon's mom, Minrah, and others specifically worried that raising a dwarf who died in combat opened up the risk that they die again, under less favorable circumstances, and punch their ticket straight to Hel. This strongly implies that the cumulative honor or dishonor of their lives doesn't matter that much--basically, dwarves try to be honorable all the time because they could die at any time. If you're honorable your whole life and die in a mining accident, you go to Hel; if you're mostly dishonorable, but die going after a tree, you go to Valhalla.

So if your honor before the moment of death doesn't matter all that much, can we really assume that your conduct after death matters either? Keep in mind, the examples of dishonorable deaths we were given haven't been moments where the dwarf in question exhibited any particularly bad traits--treachery, cowardice, cruelty, etc--they simply weren't actively being brave or honorable at that moment. Using that same standard, Dvalin must have had moments in his demi-god life where he was just hanging out, being fairly unremarkable; however, none of these have given Hel the opportunity to pull her lever on him.He talks about his death and deification (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html), so I'm pretty sure he died first.

But I think a bigger complication is that, having been deified, he's almost certainly alive at the moment. So he'd need to die again before going to Hel would be a serious possibility...and the most likely candidate for bringing that about (the Snarl) wouldn't leave anything behind to go to Hel.

[Stabbey]

OK, here's the deal.

Durkon knows the plan and yet feels totally fine with resting until Dawn to get spells back instead of heading this off before they've subverted enough votes.

Which means there is a counter the 3 vampires haven't thought of that is within the capability of the OOTS+allies to carry out without much chance of failure.


Indeed, and in fact, Durkula explicitly noted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) that the plan to subvert the vote required that the Order of the Stick be defeated in the Banquet Hall fight. Durkula clearly expected that his plan wouldn't be enough to stop the Order, and at the time he said that, he expected the Order had 0 Dwarves and 0 Clerics with them, instead of 3 Dwarven Clerics.

[dtilque]

Some people above did not read the strip carefully. The blue barrier doesn't just prevent (by turning to stone) people from attacking or casting spells, it does that for any one violating Dwarven law. That would I suspect, include casting Silence and probably some other actions proposed above. Most likely even breaking the ceiling to let in sunlight, since that damages property. Now maybe the ceiling could be broken from outside and that wouldn't trigger the barrier spell.

[137beth]

So, this page explains a lot of the things people would be asking about the meeting's defenses if it wasn't here. Now time to read the thread to find out what people are arguing about instead:smallbiggrin:

[woweedd]

By Odin's Beard, Gontor IS the most Evil of life-forms: A Lawyer! Seriously though, this is one of those villinious plans that is just ingeniously put together. Rich must make an amazing GM.

[Peelee]

The gods have magical senses and at least occasional contact with their followers. It's certainly possible Dvalin isn't strong enough to sense the deception, isn't social enough to be warned by other involved gods like Thor, or sufficiently stuck on the letter of his oath for that to make no difference.

A) Hel is a god, Hel believes the plan will work, so we have no reason to believe that Dvalin will be using any given abilities.
2) Dvalin is a demigod, so we don't even know if he has any abilities to do that to begin with.
iii) Gods explicitly have very little contact with their followers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). And that's for the followers that have explicitly chosen to dedicate their lives to their god. I would be very much surprised if non-clerical elders warranted more attention than their high priests, for example.

[Wowlock]

Whatever shenanigans may have occurred before, the dwarves didn't consider the possibility that fellow "dwarves" would be ready to put their entire race at stake for any reason. Why would they?

Because, Hel is one of their Gods too and undoubtedly will have followers. I mean it just shows the arrogance of the Dwarves to think they are uncorruptable.

[tyckspoon]

Because, Hel is one of their Gods too and undoubtedly will have followers. I mean it just shows the arrogance of the Dwarves to think they are uncorruptable.

In another world that might have been true. Hel in this world explicitly does not have mortal followers, because she is not allowed to have Clerics to spread her influence among them.. well, ok, I guess it might be a thin edge of possibility that there are dwarves crazy enough to follow Hel as their primary god anyways, but without Clerics to do her bidding among the living Hel would have little to no means of letting those dwarves know what her desires were.

[Ganbatte]

Indeed, this is kind of ironic. It appears to me that the complaints about the villains' schemes in this book have gone from "There shouldn't be a loophole like the rules not forbidding vampires from 1) existing, 2) stating evil intentions, and/or 3) attacking people who aren't Godsmoot representatives or their bodyguards" to "There should be really easy and obvious loopholes for the Order to use to get around not being allowed to attack or cast spells."

Huh, when did any of this happen?
We're just dropping theories for the fun of it, nobody ever said "there should be really easy and obvious loopholes" or the vampires forbidding from existing or any of all that stuff. :smallconfused:

Imaginary irony?


I don't think that's a fair characterization. Trying to find a loophole either way is a fun pursuit--one that could potentially lead to a fun prediction about the next strips--but I'm not sure anybody would be particularly happy if they actually found a loophole that works--particularly if it ends up feeling particularly obvious or contrived.

Welp, should've read the rest of the thread before posting.
Yup, agree and that wasn't a fair characterization at all. :smalltongue:

[Xyril]

He talks about his death and deification (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html), so I'm pretty sure he died first.

But I think a bigger complication is that, having been deified, he's almost certainly alive at the moment. So he'd need to die again before going to Hel would be a serious possibility...and the most likely candidate for bringing that about (the Snarl) wouldn't leave anything behind to go to Hel.

Ah, thanks for that note.

I think the latter point is debatable, though. I mean, we've seen plenty of the dead, who everyone would agree is dead, existing and interacting with the gods (and even mortals in some cases.) In a world where the afterlife is a plane shift away, the question of whether deification makes you alive again can be answered--entirely arbitrarily--by what the beings who wrote that rule have to say on the subject.

[Wysper]

Few Things:
There are a bunch of dwaves lined up at the bottom of a couple frames that we can only see the back of their heads. Who are they?

In my mind the bigger obstacle is the orange barrier.
Elan could cast an illusion to make someone look like a vampire. So they could give a countermanding order.

But I suspect the solution is less elegant and more destructive. Based on the last shot we see of Durkon.
IS this building on the surface? Or near the surface, but still underground?

The blowing a hole in the ceiling plan does seem like a good one. It looks like the Orange barrier goes all the way around the building. So just blowing a hole in the wall won't allow access.

Also, Durkula explicitly stated that they needed to crush the Order before the vote. So, they probably have the power to crush.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... so only dwarfs can get into the chamber at all? So only Durkon, Hilgya, Minrah, and maybe Sigdi and some of her friends like Kendro or Thirden, the former who taught Durkon how to use the hammer and shield and the latter who's explicitly a Bard. Don't know about Sigdi's other friends though...

[Ganbatte]

Some people above did not read the strip carefully. The blue barrier doesn't just prevent (by turning to stone) people from attacking or casting spells, it does that for any one violating Dwarven law.

This is an interesting concept because one could argue that "subverting a natural voting process" could also count as violating Dwavern law, and the spell's effect could theoretically proc even by just mere talking(commanding) the dominated dwarves.

It would be hilarious if the vampires were to try to say something to them as command and then get turned into stone anyway.

Of course that comes to what's actually inscribed in Dwarven Law and probably there isn't a line like that in the book. But in theory, if it was, then even merely talking and commanding the council could count as breaking it.

On another completely unrelated note, it would be also hilarious if the foil to Gontor/Durkula's rule lawyering plan on circumventing the barriers would simply be Durkon saying "to hell with it" smashing both apart Xykon-style with his new god toy.

[Xyril]

In another world that might have been true. Hel in this world explicitly does not have mortal followers, because she is not allowed to have Clerics to spread her influence among them.. well, ok, I guess it might be a thin edge of possibility that there are dwarves crazy enough to follow Hel as their primary god anyways, but without Clerics to do her bidding among the living Hel would have little to no means of letting those dwarves know what her desires were.

Plus, the dwarf-line is only one layer of many defenses. Just imagine if we had access to magic to design defenses for our secure facilities in the real world--I would absolutely put a "U.S. citizens only" line across a lot of places. It doesn't imply that I think U.S. citizens can't be secretly loyal to another country, willing to harm their country for personal gain, or convinced of the righteousness of some personal ideology that trumps loyalty to the country--but it would absolutely be stupid not to use that tool as one of multiple lines of defense unless we have specific reasons to invite non-citizens into a specific facility.

Basically, transracial adoption and testimony from allies are the only issues the anti-dwarf line presents--both can be addressed somewhat by allowing some hypothetical non-dwarven head-of-clan to send a proxy to vote, and allowing the council members to hear testimony prior to the meeting. In exchange for these minor disadvantages, it suddenly becomes much harder--not impossible, but still substantially harder--for an enemy to get agents who can interfere with the vote. Best case scenario, polymorph tricks the dwarf line, and the need to polymorph all of your agents creates yet another minor complication on top of numerous other challenges. If polymorph doesn't work, then instead of the pool of all sentient beings with good enough relations with Firmament to be allowed to enter relatively unchallenged (or at the very least, small enough to sneak in and wander around in a hooded cloak), an adversary has only the dwarven population from which to bribe, coerce, undeadify, or otherwise convert to their cause.


This is an interesting concept because one could argue that "subverting a natural voting process" could also count as violating Dwavern law, and the spell's effect could theoretically proc even by just mere talking(commanding) the dominated dwarves.

...

Of course that comes to what's actually inscribed in Dwarven Law and probably there isn't a line like that in the book. But in theory, if it was, then even merely talking and commanding the council could count as breaking it.

If anything has the power to settle the issue of intent definitively, I suppose magic is it. Even so, I think such a law would be entirely too vague, especially if some magical mechanism has to make an instantaneous ruling. Aside from the early strip gags where rules-lawyering (or suddenly remembering previously forgotten facts) caused immediate changes in reality, the strip seems to have drawn more of a distinction between mortal- and deity-enforced rules--which can be more vague and aspiration, and are essentially decided by sentient enforcers--and the sort of rules you're able to impose when controlling another sentient being, or creating some sort of magical construct.

In order to enforce a law like "don't subvert the natural voting process," the inner barrier would have to read intent--whether you're actually trying to subvert the process--and actions--whether you're doing anything to further that goal. It would have to weigh both--for example, what if you clearly want to change the vote, so you subtly remind other clan heads of previous threats, but you don't overtly threaten them in the chambers? Arguably, it would have to be a sentient magical construct, enslaved for centuries to enforce dwarven law as consistently and impartially as possible--something that, admittedly, isn't impossible given the setting.

[dtilque]

Few Things:
There are a bunch of dwaves lined up at the bottom of a couple frames that we can only see the back of their heads. Who are they?

Bodyguards of the councillors who've already arrived.


In my mind the bigger obstacle is the orange barrier.
Elan could cast an illusion to make someone look like a vampire. So they could give a countermanding order.

But there'd only be the guards and the bodyguards within range of this illusion. What can they do to change the vote?


But I suspect the solution is less elegant and more destructive. Based on the last shot we see of Durkon.
IS this building on the surface? Or near the surface, but still underground?

It is near the surface, as per the complaints of the woman councillor.


The blowing a hole in the ceiling plan does seem like a good one. It looks like the Orange barrier goes all the way around the building. So just blowing a hole in the wall won't allow access.

Other people had the idea to break the ceiling to let in sunlight, which of course the vampires are allergic to. But that violates Dwarven law, so whoever tries to do it is instantly turned to stone. The question is, does the spell anticipate that kind of action so that it prevents it or not?

[bc56]

Y'know
I think voting "Yes" on "Should we destroy the world?" is an obviously self-destructive order.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Y'know
I think voting "Yes" on "Should we destroy the world?" is an obviously self-destructive order.

No, because they aren't the ones being ordered to destroy the world.

Grey Wolf

[Xyril]

It is near the surface, as per the complaints of the woman councillor.


I had completely overlooked that detail. Given that deliberate detail, I am now wholeheartedly in the "death by cleansing sunlight" camp.

[mjasghar]

So, this page explains a lot of the things people would be asking about the meeting's defenses if it wasn't here. Now time to read the thread to find out what people are arguing about instead:smallbiggrin:
Notice the people who said they would apologise if a plan was shown have... not apologised and tried to start fights again

[Aeliren]

Elan's not a dwarf, how is he getting in to sing his song?

Elan's not a dwarf, though, so he can't penetrate the Orange Barrier. I presume the barriers (at least the blue one) are domes/spheres, rather than door wards, so tearing the walls down probably wouldn't work for by-passing them.
To which I answer:

Ah, so we need to get Thirden there
Bingo! We just spent a decent chunk of this story developing Sigdi's circle of friends, what their relations are to Durkon, and even took the time to mention that Thirden is a bard. Sigdi even just showed up to the Order in person.

[mjasghar]

This is an interesting concept because one could argue that "subverting a natural voting process" could also count as violating Dwavern law, and the spell's effect could theoretically proc even by just mere talking(commanding) the dominated dwarves.

It would be hilarious if the vampires were to try to say something to them as command and then get turned into stone anyway.

Of course that comes to what's actually inscribed in Dwarven Law and probably there isn't a line like that in the book. But in theory, if it was, then even merely talking and commanding the council could count as breaking it.

On another completely unrelated note, it would be also hilarious if the foil to Gontor/Durkula's rule lawyering plan on circumventing the barriers would simply be Durkon saying "to hell with it" smashing both apart Xykon-style with his new god toy.
So you agree with us that the vampires plan is not idiotic since
A)they know about the barriers and how they work
B)they have obviously planned around that
Of course as per usual you will not admit you got it wrong and just say it was ‘for fun’ despite your personal attacks

[KorvinStarmast]

New comic is up. thanks Giant, and thanks for explaining how an artist might use color. Takes me back to learning to mix colors as a kid.

My wild guess was the blue/orange alignment joke/trope, (bacon / necktie alignment axis added to LG and CE for three axis alignment thing) given your tweaking the nose of alignment throughout the strip's history.
The simpler reference is pleasing to see.

[Riftwolf]

So, this page explains a lot of the things people would be asking about the meeting's defenses if it wasn't here. Now time to read the thread to find out what people are arguing about instead:smallbiggrin:

Give it time. It'll be Phantom Menace soon enough.

[KorvinStarmast]

Notice the people who said they would apologise if a plan was shown have... not apologised and tried to start fights again


Give it time. It'll be Phantom Menace soon enough.
Or The Phantom, Ennis ...

[Jasdoif]

Give it time. It'll be Phantom Menace soon enough.Vampire Menace, I think. Or maybe Dennis?

[Verappo]

Or The Phantom, Ennis ...

His name is ERIK and he lives under an opera stage, thank you 😁

[Ganbatte]

Notice the people who said they would apologise if a plan was shown have... not apologised and tried to start fights again

That discussion wasn't about the mortal defenses that were bound to be present at the meeting but rather the existance of Dvalin, a demigod, standing above all this process and thus theoretically in charge of making sure the vote was legitimate and represented the will of the council as per his oath.

Nothing that this strip tells us about the barriers addresses that, so the doubts about the plan that were explained back then are still all here.

Also nobody ever talked about apologizing, but changing one's mind. There's nothing to apologize for here even if that theory was proven incorrect as it was just a theory.
It seems you're the one who's trying to start a fight, albeit quite unsuccesfully.

[KorvinStarmast]

His name is ERIK and he lives under an opera stage, thank you 😁 Reminds me of an old joke having to do with white horse whisky (https://img.thewhiskyexchange.com/900/blend_whi1.jpg)

A white horse walks into a bar, sits down, and orders a pint of Theakston's Best.
Barman looks at the horse and says "You know, we have a whisky here named after you."
The horse looks at him, eyes wide, and says "What, you've a whisky named Eric?"

Jokes told to one on a golf course by a drunk Australian 20 years ago ... may or may not do well on the internet.

[Ruck]

Some people above did not read the strip carefully. The blue barrier doesn't just prevent (by turning to stone) people from attacking or casting spells, it does that for any one violating Dwarven law. That would I suspect, include casting Silence and probably some other actions proposed above. Most likely even breaking the ceiling to let in sunlight, since that damages property. Now maybe the ceiling could be broken from outside and that wouldn't trigger the barrier spell.

Re: My bolded. Possibly, but maybe not. I think it's intentional, in a plot that's about rules-lawyering, that the Ex-Exarch mentions "attacking ... any creature" but not the structure itself.

[gerryq]

I don't doubt that removing the roof of the chamber and letting in the sunshine would work, but is there enough time for that?

Well, we did get a reminder that we are near the surface - and while that's not the only way it could be relevant, it is one way

[Ganbatte]

So you agree with us that the vampires plan is not idiotic since
A)they know about the barriers and how they work
B)they have obviously planned around that
Of course as per usual you will not admit you got it wrong and just say it was ‘for fun’ despite your personal attacks

Read the post above. It appears to me you didn't quite understand what we were talking about. :smallsmile:

[Ruck]

Reminds me of an old joke having to do with white horse whisky (https://img.thewhiskyexchange.com/900/blend_whi1.jpg)

A white horse walks into a bar, sits down, and orders a pint of Theakston's Best.
Barman looks at the horse and says "You know, we have a whisky here named after you."
The horse looks at him, eyes wide, and says "What, you've a whisky named Eric?"

Jokes told to one on a golf course by a drunk Australian 20 years ago ... may or may not do well on the internet.

I've heard this one before, too, but about a grasshopper (https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/222885/grasshopper-cocktail/) named Steve.

[Xyril]

Of course as per usual you will not admit you got it wrong and just say it was ‘for fun’ despite your personal attacks

I have no idea what the backstory behind this is, and what has shown up on this thread has given me zero motivation to revisit the previous ones and find out, but if you guys are going to dredge up history on this thread, maybe include links supporting whatever allegations you're making. (Or just start reporting each other and let the mods sort it all out.) I am admittedly only seeing the most recent portion of whatever conflict this is, and you're... not painting your position in the most favorable light.

[Mandor]

Logically then, all the Order needs to do is ensure the phrasing of the question is reversed.

"Should the gods destroy the world?"
to
"Should the gods continue to try to contain the Snarl in this world?"

And then the Exarch will have been massively hoist by his own petard.
Of course, exactly how you'd get the question to BE reversed.... when the gods themselves are that tightly divided on the outcome.... difficult to see a path.

[zimmerwald1915]

By Odin's Beard, Gontor IS the most Evil of life-forms: A Lawyer!
You aren't wrong, but it still hurts to hear.

[alwaysbebatman]

His name is ERIK and he lives under an opera stage, thank you 😁

He has a name, Karen!

[Ganbatte]

I have no idea what the backstory behind this is, and what has shown up on this thread has given me zero motivation to revisit the previous ones and find out, but if you guys are going to dredge up history on this thread, maybe include links supporting whatever allegations you're making. (Or just start reporting each other and let the mods sort it all out.) I am admittedly only seeing the most recent portion of whatever conflict this is, and you're... not painting your position in the most favorable light.

Basically a few strips ago there were a number of people, me included, who aired their doubts about the validity of the vampire's plan as it seemed to hinge on either Dvalin being "a little too dumb to notice" (I'm paraphrasing here for brevity) the vampire's domination effect or him being unwilling to care or do anything despite said manipulation going theoretically against his "representing the will of the council" oath that he's supposed to protect.

We discussed this for 30 or so pages with a good number of people sharing or not sharing these doubts, and eventually came to a stall given the lack of information.

Now we got a bit more of information about the security measures the dwarves put in place, but that still doesn't address Dvalin's demigod presence over the whole process and in what way this can go past him in a convincing matter.

Maybe he doesn't care, maybe he doesn't know, maybe something else. So far we're still in that stall as far as I'm concerned.

[alwaysbebatman]

Indirectly it does address it. "All of these safeguards are in place to avoid coersion or outside interference on the Council vote.... Good enough for me!"

It's not certain that's Dvalin's rationale, but it seems likely at this point.

[Ganbatte]

Indirectly it does address it. "All of these safeguards are in place to avoid coersion or outside interference on the Council vote.... Good enough for me!"

It's not certain that's Dvalin's rationale, but it seems likely at this point.

Perhaps, but that would make Dvalin more akin to an IRC bot than an actual demigod supposedly in charge of his people, no?
Receiving a "yes" and mindlessly enacting protocol no questions asked.

One way I could buy this was if he put those barriers in place himself, as a demigod, and so had an ultimately wrong confidence they would prevent any interference thus not needing any further inquiry in the validity of the vote.
But if we go at it another way this would mean that Dvalin is against outside interference, which includes Hel, which would make the vote invalid.

Dunno, my point is that I'm not seeing how the presence of these barriers ends the concerns raised in the previous discussion.

[Xyril]

Logically then, all the Order needs to do is ensure the phrasing of the question is reversed.

"Should the gods destroy the world?"
to
"Should the gods continue to try to contain the Snarl in this world?"

And then the Exarch will have been massively hoist by his own petard.
Of course, exactly how you'd get the question to BE reversed.... when the gods themselves are that tightly divided on the outcome.... difficult to see a path.

It seems like the rules would disallow it. In pretty much any real life legislative process, precise phrasing is very important--ideally, we get to a resolution that best reflects the will of the body by changing the language until we get a specific law or statement that a majority can get behind. As others have argued, if it's reasonable to expect Dvalin to follow the result of a corrupted vote, that implies that he's either unaware the vote was subverted, or he feels so bound to follow the letter of the rules that he will abide by the vote despite any personal misgivings. The latter in particular would imply that he probably wouldn't break any procedural rules that exist. In particular, since the Godsmoot formulated the vote as a particularly worded proposition decided specifically by a simple up-down vote, changing the wording of the proposition to have the opposite meaning seems like precisely the sort of procedural shenanigans you'd want to have a rule against.

Moreover, while your second option would naturally preclude the original proposition--can't contain the Snarl in this world if you destroy it tomorrow--it's not strictly speaking the logical opposite. There are other options beyond "containing the Snarl in this world until the next vote" and "destroying the world immediately." They all probably suck, but they logically exist. It's like asking, "Do you vote for candidate A for this position?" and then turning around and saying "Okay, I'm entering the guys who voted 'No' as voting 'Yes' on supporting candidate B for this position, since he's the only other viable candidate." It's just not the same, and even if there's no other candidate, viable or not, politics can be weird, and someone unwilling to vote to support one option might not be willing to be seen affirmatively supporting the opposite proposition.

[woweedd]

You aren't wrong, but it still hurts to hear.
You know, I was considering putting in a note to the effect of "No Offense, Zim" preemptively. Suffice to say, though I disagree with you on...many things, I can't deny you do good work, even if you given profession requires you be Lawful Neutral in action, even if Lawful Good in intent.

[Seward]

I'm even more convinced now that Durkon is going to destroy the chamber roof and let the sun in. After all, the rules only specify that you get turned to stone if you attack a creature.
That elder was complaining about how close to the surface the council chamber was.

So your theory isn't impossible. Disintegrate removes a 10x10x10 cube. On one adventure (with 6 level 15ish arcanists) two of the sorcerers on the team had the spell and we just burned a hole right through the top of the dungeon (about 70', so just a few mid level slots for each sorceress), avoiding an elaborate trap/ambush one of the wizards had spotted via wizard-eye.

[Xyril]

Indirectly it does address it. "All of these safeguards are in place to avoid coersion or outside interference on the Council vote.... Good enough for me!"

It's not certain that's Dvalin's rationale, but it seems likely at this point.

You know, this reminds me of a lot of the nuclear-war fiction (and military fiction in general) out there: We have a lot of safeguards to protect the chain of command, but ultimately it's up to the last guys in the chain to determine whether to act. If those guys have imperfect knowledge, should they be expected to assume that those safeguards all worked, and follow orders despite any personal misgivings, or should they be allowed to draw from their own outside knowledge to draw their own conclusions about whether those safeguards failed?

The Giant had depicted some dwarves as comically over-adherent to rules, but this hardly seems an appropriate place to revisit that gag. To me, the edge of plausibility would be that Dvalin worries that Hel will succeed in corrupting the vote, but will feel bound not to act on that suspicion absent specific proof. After all, we're all hoping that the dwarves will want vote "no," as is the Order; the fact that Hel is doing all this to fix the vote implies that she's worried that the dwarves might vote "no" (or that the heroes sharing her plan with them would cause them to do so), but it doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't vote yes. After all, we know that the dwarves are very duty-bound, incredibly concerned about the afterlife, and not necessarily the type to think too deeply about things. I can see their vote going either way depending on what information they have. If they're told enough to know that destroying the planet saves souls from oblivion, they'd probably vote yes. If they're told only that doing so would sent them all to Hel, they'd probably vote no. And if they're told both bits of vital information, then who knows? An eternity serving Hel versus a substantial risk of non-existence, something that most beings in this setting never actually have to contemplate? I have no idea what I'd choose given that option. So the mere fact that the dwarves vote to the destroy the world would not be enough to prove that their vote was corrupted by Hel, which leaves Dvalin in a tough spot, barring a Sending from the Council saying, "Hey, so we voted this way, but I strongly suspect like 70% of us are Dominated right now."

[Ruck]

That elder was complaining about how close to the surface the council chamber was.

So your theory isn't impossible. Disintegrate removes a 10x10x10 cube. On one adventure (with 6 level 15ish arcanists) two of the sorcerers on the team had the spell and we just burned a hole right through the top of the dungeon (about 70', so just a few mid level slots for each sorceress), avoiding an elaborate trap/ambush one of the wizards had spotted via wizard-eye.

I was really thinking it would involve Durkon's newfound hammer somehow, although Vaarsuvius having Disintegrate would certainly help.

[Xyril]

That elder was complaining about how close to the surface the council chamber was.

So your theory isn't impossible. Disintegrate removes a 10x10x10 cube.

That would work, but narratively speaking it would be much more satisfying for Durkon to bring the thunder.

[Peelee]

Perhaps, but that would make Dvalin more akin to an IRC bot than an actual demigod supposedly in charge of his people, no?
Receiving a "yes" and mindlessly enacting protocol no questions asked.

If you assume that Dvalin's be-all, end-all point of existence as a demigod is to cast a vote in the event of a tie once every few years, then yes, he would be more akin to an IRC bot than an actual demigod.

If one assumes that he is significantly more than that (as one might expect from a being called a demigod), then one could simply reason out that Dvalin wanted to let the dwarves have a direct say in godly matters (likely due to being shafted by godly matters before), and lets them do their thing.

[Seward]

That would work, but narratively speaking it would be much more satisfying for Durkon to bring the thunder.

Well, Earthquake is a standard Cleric spell.

[woweedd]

Well, Earthquake is a standard Cleric spell.
Your point being...?

[dtilque]

Re: My bolded. Possibly, but maybe not. I think it's intentional, in a plot that's about rules-lawyering, that the Ex-Exarch mentions "attacking ... any creature" but not the structure itself.

Yes, but I have a hard time imagining that Dwarven law doesn't have a law against damage of other people's property. But the turn-to-stone thing probably has to wait until the property is actually damaged, which means Durkon gets one shot at the ceiling and then he's stoned. Better make it his best shot.

Perhaps he and Roy will team up on it. Roy could go outside and wait for the boom of that fancy new hammer. If it doesn't break a hole in the roof, say it just cracks it, Roy could finish the job with his undead sticker.

ETA: Perhaps the the Mechane has something that'll help. It's still up there waiting for their return.

[hroþila]

I'm still on Team This Comic Doesn't Really Change Anything and It Still Doesn't Quite Feel Right Because I Think Dvalin Should Know, and No This Doesn't Mean I Assume Him to Be Omnipotent.

This forum does get a bit weird whenever there's criticism, though (I'm guilty of this too), and everything was already said in the last thread, so I'm not going to go any further than that.

[Hemoparty]

Looks like the Giant anticipated (or read) the arguments about Hel's plan not making that much sense. No word on Dvalin being Lawful Stupid, though.

He also seems to be trolling the Church of the Sudden Skylight with this comic's title, though I could just be jumping the gun and projecting here.

Finally, are the Exarch's fangs supposed to be that odd, vaguely pinkish color? I suppose it makes his chompers look more distinct from his beard, but it weirds me out.

[Kish]

I'm still on Team This Comic Doesn't Really Change Anything and It Still Doesn't Quite Feel Right Because I Think Dvalin Should Know, and No This Doesn't Mean I Assume Him to Be Omnipotent.
Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote? 'Cause I think that might be where the disconnect is here.

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)

[Resileaf]

Finally, are the Exarch's fangs supposed to be that odd, vaguely pinkish color? I suppose it makes his chompers look more distinct from his beard, but it weirds me out.

It's blood-stained fangs.

[Ruck]

Yes, but I have a hard time imagining that Dwarven law doesn't have a law against damage of other people's property.

Could be that it's not really "other people's property," that it's community property. (Really, could be a lot of reasons our assumptions about real-world property rights don't apply to dwarven society.) Could be that it never occurred to the dwarves that a dwarf would try to destroy the Council of Clans meeting place.

[hroþila]

Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote? 'Cause I think that might be where the disconnect is here.

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)
No, I don't think he necessarily cares about individuals (any more than would be expected of a presumably non-Evil deity).

[Windscion]

I don't understand why people think that breaking the wall or ceiling would trigger petrification, given that whoever does so will be standing outside of the zone of the spell effect.

Also, enroll me in the church of sudden sunlight please.

[Ganbatte]

which leaves Dvalin in a tough spot, barring a Sending from the Council saying, "Hey, so we voted this way, but I strongly suspect like 70% of us are Dominated right now."

That would actually be hilarious :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote?

Not only to care about the mortals like that, but also then care so little that he effectively babysits the elders to make sure they do what they're supposed to do, despite all the safeguards already out in place.

Its an incredibly specific level of caring and respect (and lack thereof), really.

[Kish]

No, I don't think he necessarily cares about individuals (any more than would be expected of a presumably non-Evil deity).
The parenthetical makes this a less straightforward answer than it might seem.

How much do you expect of a (you can call him Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good; I think the former is more likely but I also think based on what the comic's shown so far it doesn't matter that much) deity?

[Xyril]

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)

I'm very curious why you feel that way--actually, I guess I'm a bit more specific curious what you would see as a more "neutral" portrayal of the gods. I think his portrayal has been very consistent with the way many pantheistic religions portray their deities--as imperfect individuals, some more selfish, some outright benevolent, many who can't be characterized easily as good or evil. He brings a few new things to the table--the various ways mortals power the gods, for example--and an interesting exploration on how this relationship might impact their relationship with each other and with mortals. Many of the deities seem to legitimately care about their worshipers as more than a necessary source of nourishment, and even the apparent indifference or capriciousness of the gods are explained by their justified reluctance to undermine a set of rules that exist for a very good reason.

Moreover, as far as we know, the gods and their realms are the totality of existence. While it might seem callous that the gods would prioritize their own survival over those countless individual worlds, there's a good chance that if they're wiped out, there will be nobody left to remember the worlds that died, to build new worlds, and to bring hope of one day ending the cycle of constant destruction. Plus, if Minrah's speculation is correct, all the souls in all of the afterlives would be Snarl food.

Also, Thor really is the best god ever.

[Rrmcklin]

For me, my only question is how the vote is conducted and how Davlin is given the answer. Depending on the answer to that question is how believable I'll find this situation. Note, I expect a satisfying answer to this question exists because I think the Giant is a good writer, I'm just saying it's a question that I have.

That being said, I do appreciate the elaboration on how the vampires plan on using the Council's own procedures for their plan, I had been wondering about that. Based on what Durkon said a few strips ago, there should be another barrier right?

[M.A.D]

That discussion wasn't about the mortal defenses that were bound to be present at the meeting but rather the existance of Dvalin, a demigod, standing above all this process and thus theoretically in charge of making sure the vote was legitimate and represented the will of the council as per his oath.

Nothing that this strip tells us about the barriers addresses that, so the doubts about the plan that were explained back then are still all here.

Also nobody ever talked about apologizing, but changing one's mind. There's nothing to apologize for here even if that theory was proven incorrect as it was just a theory.
It seems you're the one who's trying to start a fight, albeit quite unsuccesfully.

I've followed your arguments since the last thread. I think we all weren't on the same page from the start.

You're under the assumption that DnD gods are omnipotent, all powerful, all seeing, and always so perfect that they wouldn't allow any mistake on the mortal's parts. And any such attempt to pool the proverbial wool over their all-seeing eyes are to be met with divine retribution of fire and brimstone.

I assure you, they're not. They're only as powerful as the story requires them to be. They're flawed and arguable and limited. Heck, if you were reading OoTS from the beginning you should have known that too.

Now, let's establish that Dvalin can, as a god, make mistakes. And assume what he knows, his enemies knows too. And finally, assume he's unprepared for all situations, whereas Hel has had time to plan based on what she knows of him and everyone else. Heck, involving Dvalin wasn't even the main thing. It was like, the second option of her contingency plan.

From the beginning, there was that bet between Thor and Hel. And what that led to was The Dwarves developing into the most lawful, rule-abiding, honour-bound society in the world. Note that it's "society", as in what they accept as the social norm. It obviously have to vary from person yo person.

So what would a god-king of that society do about dwarven vote-tempering, having made an oath and bound to it? Nothing. He's a dwarf. He was born so lawful that he doesn't have a reason to believe another dwarf would temper votes. And as a model votee, he cannot get involved with his own voters. That is to say, the total process of dwarven voting is completely free of influence from Dvalin, otherwise it's meaningless to have a vote.

The Dwarven council, on the other hand, did what they could against foreign enemies, while also leaving a loop hole that their own dwarven people can exploit. Either that or they're lawful to the point of being absolute certain that a dwarf would never betray his own kind. But in any case, it's got enough build-in defenses that only a dwarven vampire who knows the upper echelon's system inside out could get through it to tamper with the vote. I'd say it's enough of a one-in-million thing to not consider.

[Xyril]

Could be that it's not really "other people's property," that it's community property. (Really, could be a lot of reasons our assumptions about real-world property rights don't apply to dwarven society.) Could be that it never occurred to the dwarves that a dwarf would try to destroy the Council of Clans meeting place.

Plus, there's a ton of stuff that the law has ways of making right (i.e., holding one person responsible for fixing) that isn't criminalized, and thus not "breaking the law" per se. Deliberately damaging property is a criminal offense in most real world nations, but a system where property crimes are handled by something like a tort system is certainly plausible.

Then again, these guys think that trees are evil beings who need to be smote; it wouldn't surprise me if they thought the stone roof was an innocent being that needed to be protected.

[dtilque]

I don't understand why people think that breaking the wall or ceiling would trigger petrification, given that whoever does so will be standing outside of the zone of the spell effect.

It depends on whether the person is inside or outside. If it happens, I expect it will be a last ditch tactic when everything else failed. But for there to be an "everything else", he'd have to be inside.


Could be that it's not really "other people's property," that it's community property. (Really, could be a lot of reasons our assumptions about real-world property rights don't apply to dwarven society.) Could be that it never occurred to the dwarves that a dwarf would try to destroy the Council of Clans meeting place.

They wouldn't need a specific law for the Council Chamber, just a general law on destroying property. And I'd expect that law to apply to any community property as well as other people's personal property. Why should it not?

[pendell]

It's a meeting for top-level politicians. I'd expect a fair number of them to be Evil, and would end with massive headaches from the experience.

Grey Wolf

Wait just a minute, Grey WOlf. The last time we had this conversation you insisted that the elders meeting were not top-level politicians. We had agreed that they were not the current Dwarven government or parliament. You stated that they were simply old people , holdovers for ceremonial purposes like the house of Lords. Have you changed your mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The_Weirdo]

Prediction: In face of the petrification spell should there be any physical attacks on the voters, Belkar takes the bullet and attacks them. He is petrified just like Kraagor and the prophecy comes true.

[pendell]

Prediction: In face of the petrification spell should there be any physical attacks on the voters, Belkar takes the bullet and attacks them. He is petrified just like Kraagor and the prophecy comes true.

I don't think so and I'll tell you why; because the petrification only lasts until the meeting adjourns. That would not fulfill the prophecy. He's supposed to die permanently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tervalas]

Turns them to stone inside the blue barrier....always helps to have a weapon of Thor you can throw from outside.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think so and I'll tell you why; because the petrification only lasts until the meeting adjourns. That would not fulfill the prophecy. He's supposed to die permanently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

In my defense, I had first read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

No, wait.

[zimmerwald1915]

In my defense, I had first read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

No, wait.
That's not on.

(I also read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep, coming off about 12 hours of work. Explains the snafu re: polymorph, though I think I'd still like to see the Order as a party of dwarves)

(Also re: the disintegrate discussion upthread, surely passwall would be the better spell? Assuming the field doesn't wrap around the chamber inside the wall, which it probably does?)

[Ruck]

That's not on.

(I also read the comic on about 4 hours of sleep, coming off about 12 hours of work. Explains the snafu re: polymorph, though I think I'd still like to see the Order as a party of dwarves)

(Also re: the disintegrate discussion upthread, surely passwall would be the better spell? Assuming the field doesn't wrap around the chamber inside the wall, which it probably does?)

Would Passwall create a hole to allow sunlight through?


They wouldn't need a specific law for the Council Chamber, just a general law on destroying property. And I'd expect that law to apply to any community property as well as other people's personal property. Why should it not?

I mean, why should they? This requires several assumptions of facts not in evidence. And the storyteller in me thinks that Durkon's new hammer + Durkon being the son of a gifted sapper is going to come into play here.

[Ganbatte]

I've followed your arguments since the last thread. I think we all weren't on the same page from the start.

You're under the assumption that DnD gods are omnipotent, all powerful, all seeing, and always so perfect that they wouldn't allow any mistake on the mortal's parts. And any such attempt to pool the proverbial wool over their all-seeing eyes are to be met with divine retribution

hroþila sssssave meeeee


I'm still on Team This Comic Doesn't Really Change Anything and It Still Doesn't Quite Feel Right Because I Think Dvalin Should Know, and No This Doesn't Mean I Assume Him to Be Omnipotent.

*dusts out*


I assure you, they're not. They're only as powerful as the story requires them to be. They're flawed and arguable and limited. Heck, if you were reading OoTS from the beginning you should have known that too.

I do! Which is why I never once argued otherwise!

Aaaaaahhhh


Now, let's establish that Dvalin can, as a god, make mistakes---
So what would a god-king of that society do about dwarven vote-tempering, having made an oath and bound to it? Nothing. He's a dwarf. He was born so lawful that he doesn't have a reason to believe another dwarf would temper votes. And as a model votee, he cannot get involved with his own voters. That is to say, the total process of dwarven voting is completely free of influence from Dvalin, otherwise it's meaningless to have a vote.

Okay, but there's no indication in the comic that Dvalin has this "dwarfs wouldn't cheat" mindset you describe.
A valid theory but a theory still, meaning it's not enough to dissuade from the doubts born from the elements the comic does provide.

And besides watching over a voting is not the same as influencing the voters. They're two entirely separate worlds.
A judge overseeing a ballot to make sure no foul play is at hand isn't influencing the people putting in the voting papers, it's just a judge doing his job to make sure the result is legitimate.

[zimmerwald1915]

Would Passwall create a hole to allow sunlight through?
Spell creates a tunnel with a radius between 3 and 5 feet judging by it's use in Girard's pyramid, and more importantly, 20 feet deep at Vaarsuvius's level (it's not on Durkon's spell list, but neither is disintegrate). It gets you further through a thick stone wall (such as the side of a mountain) than disintegrate does, and uses a lower-level slot meaning you can cast more of them.

[The_Weirdo]

That's not on.

Sorry, what do you mean? o_O

[zimmerwald1915]

Sorry, what do you mean? o_O
"Not on" = not a polite or courteous or considerate thing to do. In this case, making me think you were Pendell for a moment.

[The_Weirdo]

"Not on" = not a polite or courteous or considerate thing to do. In this case, making me think you were Pendell for a moment.

Thanks!

Respectfully,

zimmerwald1915 Ever played Persona 4? If so, shout: "You are not me!" at me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait just a minute, Grey WOlf. The last time we had this conversation you insisted that the elders meeting were not top-level politicians. We had agreed that they were not the current Dwarven government or parliament. You stated that they were simply old people , holdovers for ceremonial purposes like the house of Lords. Have you changed your mind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Current ones? No. But the building was created back when, one assumes, the council of clans was the highest level of government.

And heck, even the modern ones should have a fair share of evil heads of clans that would still complain if the building defences targeted them.

Grey Wolf

[georgie_leech]

By Odin's Beard, Gontor IS the most Evil of life-forms: A Lawyer!


You aren't wrong, but it still hurts to hear.

Objection: Politicians exist.:smalltongue:

[factotum]

I just had a thought as to how Durkon et al. can break the Ex-Exarch's plan:


The Dominated people in the council chamber have been told to obey any instruction given them by a vampire, but they're just regular dwarves with no supernatural ability to tell who's a vampire and who isn't--so if Durkon, Minrah and Hilgya put fake teeth in and pretend to be vampires, they ought to be able to countermand the Exarch's orders at the critical moment.

[The_Weirdo]

I just had a thought as to how Durkon et al. can break the Ex-Exarch's plan:


The Dominated people in the council chamber have been told to obey any instruction given them by a vampire, but they're just regular dwarves with no supernatural ability to tell who's a vampire and who isn't--so if Durkon, Minrah and Hilgya put fake teeth in and pretend to be vampires, they ought to be able to countermand the Exarch's orders at the critical moment.


It is the kind of thing Hilgya would suggest - and at which Durkon would balk.

It would also drive some people here crazy. :smallbiggrin:

[Dion]

It is the kind of thing Hilgya would suggest - and at which Durkon would balk.

It would also drive some people here crazy. :smallbiggrin:

It sounds to me like the kind of thing Elan would suggest, and Roy would balk at.

Except Elan is chaotic good and Hilgya is chaotic evil, so Elan would use grape jelly for fake blood, and even put fake teeth in Banjo.

[alwaysbebatman]

And besides watching over a voting is not the same as influencing the voters. They're two entirely separate worlds.
A judge overseeing a ballot to make sure no foul play is at hand isn't influencing the people putting in the voting papers, it's just a judge doing his job to make sure the result is legitimate.

But that's NOT his job. The President who has to abide by and enforce the outcome of a vote can't *also* be an election judge. It would be a conflict of interest.

[Dion]

But that's NOT his job. The President who has to abide by and enforce the outcome of a vote can't *also* be an election judge. It would be a conflict of interest.

Also, the vampires literally announced their plan out loud in front of every high cleric of the northern pantheon in comic 1016 (including Dvalin’s own high cleric).

If Dvalin does not already know the vampire’s plan after it’s been literally announced in public to his own high cleric, then Dvalin is so completely disinterested in the mortal world that he won’t figure the plan out now, or ever.

If he does know, then I think we can safely assume there is some silly rule that causes him to be unable to do anything useful with the information.

[woweedd]

Does it mean you assume him to care about any mortals as individuals rather than the abstract concept "I swore to follow the will of the clans," and thus to have any interest in what a member of the council might want to say other than the overall vote? 'Cause I think that might be where the disconnect is here.

(That's speculation. Rich's portrayal of the gods has, thus far, been considerably more negative and cynical than I would prefer, but it appears quite consistent to me.)
I don't know, I feel like a lot of the Gods callousness can be explained by the whole "watching countless worlds get destroyed" thing. I feel like, after watching endless worlds of their followers die with prayers to them on their lips, its a wonder the Gods aren't just completely numb.

[Xyril]

But that's NOT his job. The President who has to abide by and enforce the outcome of a vote can't *also* be an election judge. It would be a conflict of interest.

Without getting too directly political, I would note that such situations actually do occur. In some countries, this tends to be a result of people being able to move between various elected or appointed positions that exist on different those figurative "checks and balances" scales.

Also, it's not precisely a conflict of interest. If we assume the President doesn't have a personal stake in how the law is enforced, then the outcome of the vote only matters to the extent that it might make his job easier or harder. For example, if I were President, I would probably want the referendum to "lower taxes, increase spending, and balance the budget" to fail horribly, while I'd be much more okay with "Just do what you want and try not to start any more wars." If, on the other hand, the President does have a personal stake, then the conflict of interest will exist regardless of whether he certifies the vote, enforces its outcome, or both. If a President had to enforce a rule collecting taxes from farms, and he owns huge farms, that's already a conflict of interest. If a judge has to certify the vote on whether to tax the farms, and he owns huge farms, that's a conflict of interest. If one person has both duties, and some big farms, that doesn't create a conflict of interest that didn't already exist, though it arguably makes it a bit worse. And if one person has both duties, but owns zero farms (and is otherwise not benefiting or suffering from the outcome), then there's no conflict of interest.

As I previously mentioned, your concern is more of a separation of powers, checks and balances sort of issue. The idea is that you don't want one person, or one position, to have all the power in government. In general, many modern democracies follow a similar pattern to the U.S. in how they separate those powers, creating a legislative branch to make laws, a judiciary to interpret them, and an executive to "enforce them." However, that's not the only way to separate the powers. Many countries, for example, make a distinction between head of state and head of government. I've heard some describe the United States as having the President be the head of state, and the leaders of the two houses of Congress be the head of government--but in practice the apportionment of responsibilities among them is very different than it is in--for example--Commonwealth countries.

I understand why, for somebody accustomed to many real world governments, that one guy both overseeing a vote and enforcing an outcome (in this case, forwarding the vote to the Godsmoot) feels like it violates the separation of powers. However, I don't think it does. For one thing, as far as has been explicitly revealed, Dvalin has precisely one role in government--forward the vote of the Council of Clans to the Godsmoot. Perhaps, more generally, obey the vote of the Council of Clans. This seems like a ministerial role--that is, he obeys the decisions, rather than making them. In practice, it is often people with such roles who find themselves responsible for supervising elections or votes. For example, appointed supervisors and employees might be more inclined to oversee an election honestly if they don't actually have to run in an election to keep their jobs.

If you're worried about conflict of interest, then you're worried that Dvalin might--completely against what we've been shown about his character--decide to substitute his own judgement for that of the Council of Clans. The thing is, this conflict of interest already exists. As far as the laws of deities are concerned, Dvalin has the absolute power to unilaterally cast his vote however he wants--it is only his sense of duty that prompts him to abide by the vote. Giving him the additional power to supervise the council vote contributes absolutely nothing to that potential conflict of interest because--again--he already has the absolute power to unilaterally cast his vote however he wants. He has no obvious reason to put his finger on the scales of the vote because he is already 100% in control of the only outcome that matters.

Edit: A few potential reasons exist, but they don't make sense for this situation. Someone like Lord Shojo might prefer to manipulate the vote, make the Council of Clans believe that he is completely obedient to their will, hiding the fact he had a desired outcome and worked to make it happen. Someone like Thor, arguably, or really, a bunch of characters, might use that power to abide by the letter of the rule while flagrantly violating its spirit. Neither of these actions seem consistent with what we've seen of Dvalin.

[Fyraltari]

I think his portrayal has been very consistent with the way many pantheistic religions portray their deities--as imperfect individuals, some more selfish, some outright benevolent, many who can't be characterized easily as good or evil.
You are thinking of pplytheistic religion. This looks nothing like pantheism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism).


Also, Thor really is the best god ever.
I couldn't agree more.

[jayem]

One explanation for the blue/orange separation could be that it's mechanically impossible to build them adjacent (plus of course that it resembles an airlock-and airlocks are cool). Relatedly it wouldn't be the first time someone thought, but if we made the orange bigger we're giving more protection (I mean you don't want to let dominated people attack your outer guards, do you)

As I see it there are two/three/four/five/six loopholes.
1) They defaultly vote yes to the main proposal. If the order (or interesting characters) [b]learn this and invert the question then this causes the vampires a risk of a straight up fail if they can't re-order.
2) They defaultly vote yes to the main proposal. If the main proposal is something unrelated then this stalls things. "Now the first and most important thing we need to decide, do we expell this lunatic who says he is on a mission from Thor".

3) obey any verbal instructions given by a vampire, this means that they can't give (effective) orders via proxy, or if they can't speak for some reason

4) is there anything legal that Durkon can do (sun roof being the obvious one) 4b) the important law given explicitly focuses on creatures in a council meeting
6) Is there anything the vampires can be tricked into doing that is illegal under dwarf law

[Werbaer]

Also, the vampires literally announced their plan out loud in front of every high cleric of the northern pantheon in comic 1016 (including Dvalin’s own high cleric).

If Dvalin does not already know the vampire’s plan after it’s been literally announced in public to his own high cleric, then Dvalin is so completely disinterested in the mortal world that he won’t figure the plan out now, or ever.
The gods can only hear each other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)

[5crownik007]

In the chamber, breaking Dwarven law turns you to stone.
In before because the OOTS is there to stop an evil plot, they are exempt under an ancient, obscure clause.

[Xyril]

The gods can only hear each other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)

That's a good catch, though I imagine that if there isn't some specific rule barring it--and Dvalin's high priest doesn't avoid doing so out of an abundance of caution--he would want to commune with his demi-god as soon as possible to convey that information. In fact, I would think that in general the high priests might want to contact their deities to let them know about some potential deficiencies in the rules protecting the Godsmoot and that they probably need to find a new host for the next one.

[Xyril]

You are thinking of pplytheistic religion. This looks nothing like pantheism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism).


I absolutely meant to type polytheistic religion, and made a typo. Thanks for the catch.

[schmunzel]

Thanks for pointing that out! I totally misread it as Bwa-haa-haa-haa-haa. Went back to it and laughed out loud.

What did I miss????



I think this has been suggested before at least to some extent.

I think the order will smash a hole in the top of the chamber. Maybe sunlight will destroy the vampires (or maybe the still have protection). However then they can cast into the chamber. Roy will protect the spell casters.

Durkon will enter the chamber the old fashioned way. He carries destruction with him!



Hey, from the last comment it sounds like there are people who would react from hearing the evil laugh. Does that mean there are undominated people inside?

Might be! There are (???) limits on how many people/dwarves they can dominate

Im still thinking of ways for an Allosaurus to be useful here.
Will it be against dwarven law to eat dominated Council members??
Bloodfeast and the exarch have met before!
As he is carried in an extradimensional place - will he be able to pass the hole erm the barrier ???

sch

[schmunzel]

Elan gets in and uses an illusion spell to mimic the sound of the vampires and give them new orders? Elan has used major image before so I think it should work.

The illusion is not interacting with the people directly, and it has concentration effect so Elan can cast the spell outside and then maintain it via concentration.

So the only question is how does Elan get into the middle chamber past the first barrier which is Orange? <snip>


Hole!!


Your point? Because mine was "if your turn to stone if magic decides your vote was coerced, there are a lot of statues of former heads of clan in that room, and a lot of clans very angry about it".

<snip>

Grey Wolf

only till adjournement so the constructor might be safe




How would it interact if Elan was polymorph prior to passing the barrier? The polymorph will be dispelled but will Elan be able to cross the barrier during this time or will it make it anti dwarf only effect kick in after the dispelled Elan?

I firmly count on one Polymorph being dispelled that day :)


sch