Adventures in Middle Earth 5e - what's your opinion on it

[oxybe]

So our current Genesys game is winding down and after figuring we have probably 2 sessions at most, what with next session going to kick off with us engaging a vampire in a desecrated underground temple and her guards... it could be over quick and no wrap up session needed.

Discussing about what to play next, AiME 5e came up on the docket and since we haven't touched 5e in years we figured why not give it a go.

We're all varying degrees of familiar with the setting and it's nothing audiobooks can't help refresh those of us who haven't read the books in a while.

Haven't settled on what I'm going to play just yet (though a Mirkwood Treasure Hunter looks to be up muy alley) just looking to get a feel for what to expect from the game and things to keep in mind as it does seem to venture a bit from the standard D&D, and what someone who hasn't touched 5e in years should make note of.

[Ignimortis]

Haven't played it, but I've seen some material, and I think that it's the way 5e was designed to be played anyways. LotR seemed like something 5e wanted to emulate quite a bit. Not much magic items? LotR has the Rings, Narsil, the Sting...and that's it, basically. People who can't do in an army of orcs solo, but still can survive about 20 at mid-levels before dying, like Boromir? Also there in the system. They fit each other much better than other editions would, I'd say.

[hymer]

LotR has the Rings, Narsil, the Sting...and that's it, basically.
Well... The barrow blades, miruvor from Imladris, the Great Horn of the Stewards, elven cloaks, lembas, magical rope, unsinkable boats, a box of special earth from Galadriel's orchard, the Star-glass of light to frighten Shelob, an Elfstone made in Eregion for Aragorn to be called Elessar, staves of Lebethron, the palantíri, and the horn from the hoard of the dragon Scatha... I may have missed some.

[Ignimortis]

Well... The barrow blades, miruvor from Imladris, the Great Horn of the Stewards, elven cloaks, lembas, magical rope, unsinkable boats, a box of special earth from Galadriel's orchard, the Star-glass of light to frighten Shelob, an Elfstone made in Eregion for Aragorn to be called Elessar, staves of Lebethron, the palantíri, and the horn from the hoard of the dragon Scatha... I may have missed some.

Eh. It's been a while since I've read LotR. But my statement still holds - most of those items are at best uncommon magic items in power, and the overall power level is there.

[CE DM]

It looks good, although it's limited in time & space to a very specific ME place/time. Items...are not weak, actually. What is there, seems strong by comparison with 5e, to me.

What is both interesting, and to my eye, scary, is the rest changes. A long rest is not a night's sleep, but a different concept altogether, like a vacation...a week or a SEASON. I can make some guessed about this, an exhaustion levels, but without playing it first hand, can't really know what it will produce. The same goes for the journey aspects.

Assuming you guys play, you will have more to report on how it goes than we do!

The race/class/virtue(vs feat) parts look very cool (& good). My only issues are that I'd like many more of them! On the DM side, I'd like more critters of middle earth as well, and expanded geography. The creature action/abilities lists contain wonderful gems & ways to tweak monsters that could be enjoyed in any game, though.

[Tsaerik]

AiME also adds in a unique way of handling journeys, with complete tables of new Journey rules. All party members are assigned a task (ie Hunter, Guide, Scout, etc) and after determining the influence of the Shadow for the regions the party is traveling through, you roll for journey events.

As CE DM stated, resting is very different, too. Long rests are only possible in sanctuaries, or very rarely, in a designated safe area. The party has to make do with short rests, which are longer that what you might be used to in 5E.

Finally, the game introduces the Fellowship phase, were, at the end of the adventuring season (usually after 1-2 complete adventures) the party returns to either the home area of their race, or to an unlocked sanctuary city (the default city is Laketown, but Bree-land adventures is about to be published, giving us a starting sanctuary on the west side of the Misty Mountains). This is where the party will level their characters up, and can perform 1-2 Fellowship phase activities (the Loremaster Guide has a list of these, and subsequent publications also provide options), such as unlock a new sanctuary, purge some of your shadow points, learn a new trait, etc.

Hope that helps

[Unoriginal]

Is Adventure in Middle Earth an homebrew? A third party supplement?

Is all or some of it available for free legally?

[Scarytincan]

There are a few things that need to be watched out for as a DM in terms of certain things not having been sufficiently playtested for balance (great weapon master and foehammer subclasses, mirkwood elf auto crit for one HD on a treasure hunter, high elf locking down any endgame boss for an entire battle with ease, some of the worst offenders).

If you are planning on mirkwood treasure hunter, don't be 'that guy' and just hope the DM doesn't notice how strong that combo is gonna be, discuss it a bit at the start, maybe give it some trial runs and be willing to work with the DM on balancing it while still keeping it fun and situationally strong for a suitable resource cost.

Regarding rests, there are occasionally long rests during an adventure, but mostly are intended for in between adventure phases so that exhaustion can actually be a threat during a journey and to encourage players to consider more strongly finding other ways to solve encounters that they could maybe fight but would be draining to do so when they still have more journey left /bigger fights coming.

The shadow points system is another thing that really helps ground the setting and make consequences of certain decisions feel more real and more middle-earthy.

My group so far has been through the intro adventure (Eaves of Mirkwood), wilderland adventures, and is now approaching about a third of the way into mirkwood campaign and it's been a blast. I've chained all 3 together, so have had to make adjustments for level throughout, but it's been working out fine.

[Tsaerik]

Officially licensed product line from Cubicle7 publishers. Apparently, I'm unable to paste the link to their site, but they have a whole line of Middle Earth 5E products.

Not sure if there are any free downloads, etc.

[Scarytincan]

Is Adventure in Middle Earth an homebrew? A third party supplement?

Is all or some of it available for free legally?

It's produced by cubicle 7 who have made other games. It's a 5e adaptation of their own game 'The One Ring' rpg. To my knowledge none is available for free legally except maybe character sheets.

I like to see makers of games etc that I enjoy get their due financial support so they can keep making awesome stuff, so if you are looking to discuss or ask more questions about the game before spending money (completely understandably), I would be more than happy to assist however I may.

[Trask]

Its a good product that faithfully does what it says on the tin. The new classes are mostly fine, as are most of the options. I'd actually say that some of the feats presented are fairly strong by vanilla 5e standards.

And when you play it, you really feel like 5e works quite well with no magic.

[Rafaelfras]

Its a good product that faithfully does what it says on the tin. The new classes are mostly fine, as are most of the options. I'd actually say that some of the feats presented are fairly strong by vanilla 5e standards.

And when you play it, you really feel like 5e works quite well with no magic.
No magic...?
You can't be a spellcaster??? :' (

[Willie the Duck]

Its a good product that faithfully does what it says on the tin. The new classes are mostly fine, as are most of the options. I'd actually say that some of the feats presented are fairly strong by vanilla 5e standards.

And when you play it, you really feel like 5e works quite well with no magic.


No magic...?
You can't be a spellcaster??? :' (

That is correct. It is a different game, with a different focus. The no spellcaster part does make the altered rest-frequency issue work better (there's no warlock-champion-wizard balance discussions, because the classes all work much more similarly.

But that does bring up a good point. AiME is a solid game... but a different one from 5e and I think that -- even though it would be just as resilient to house rules and the like as 5e-- it'd quickly break very quickly if you imported in everything any and all player requests of what they wanted for it based on their 5e experience. Just the Goodberry and Pass without a Trace spells would make much of the overland travel challenges of the game be so much less meaningful.

[Unoriginal]

Well, what are the classes, then?

[Corsair14]

Its a great game if you want a low magic game where spellcasters are a true rarity. There is a lot of official material out there for it. Its worth looking into even if you just want a normal 5e game with low to no true casters.

[Rafaelfras]

That is correct. It is a different game, with a different focus. The no spellcaster part does make the altered rest-frequency issue work better (there's no warlock-champion-wizard balance discussions, because the classes all work much more similarly.

But that does bring up a good point. AiME is a solid game... but a different one from 5e and I think that -- even though it would be just as resilient to house rules and the like as 5e-- it'd quickly break very quickly if you imported in everything any and all player requests of what they wanted for it based on their 5e experience. Just the Goodberry and Pass without a Trace spells would make much of the overland travel challenges of the game be so much less meaningful.

That realy make me sad, fellowship of the ring without Gandalf isn't the same
There are epic moments and duels of Power and Will, like Finrod vs Sauron, Luthien against Melkor, Galndalf vs the balrog or the Witch King of Angmar
It's a huge left out :(

[Unoriginal]

That realy make me sad, fellowship of the ring without Gandalf isn't the same
There are epic moments and duels of Power and Will, like Finrod vs Sauron, Luthien against Melkor, Galndalf vs the balrog or the Witch King of Angmar
It's a huge left out :(

Gandalf wouldn't be in the same league as the PCs.

[CheddarChampion]

I've played the module for it from levels 1-5, about 12 weeks total.

Overall the system seems like it was made by fans of Tolkien's books who didn't understand class balance:
One race-specific virtue lets you add your proficiency bonus to AC.
Another lets you auto-crit by spending a hit die.
Then there's plenty of ones you'd never use.
One barbarian subclass lets you use heavy armor and add your Dex mod to AC.
The other makes you a little more deadly on a horse but leaves your horse vulnerable.
One warden (see bard sans magic) subclass is a buffed valor bard.
One warden subclass is a nerfed lore bard.
One warden subclass is based around leaping in front of the blow meant for another, but is better done with the protection fighting style.

The module had its own set of problems:
(Each of these comes down to opinion)
Very much a railroad.
Don't have a wanderer (see ranger)? Sucks to be you.
Stealth is mandatory.
You're always one random chance away from ruin, you need to save your inspiration:
Roll low when meeting an important person? Might as well start over.
Roll low on the journey table? Start making a new character.
Roll low when navigating underground? You're done, son.
Almost every climactic fight ended with one party member being downed then everyone saved by DM Ex Machina.

When this is the case, you don't need anyone who excels at combat. I played a (valor bard) and had to be the tank (which I was not statted for - 14 dex 12 con) and we didn't really suffer for it. I just almost died multiple times then we were saved just after - leading to me and my char thinking there was always someone bettersuited for the job. Not very fun when the "Heroes" are underpowered and unnecessary.

Despite all this we still managed to have fun in the lands of Middle Earth.
If you use this system, understand that the rules and module have less thought put into them than 5e and its modules.

[Anonymouswizard]

Its a good product that faithfully does what it says on the tin. The new classes are mostly fine, as are most of the options. I'd actually say that some of the feats presented are fairly strong by vanilla 5e standards.

And when you play it, you really feel like 5e works quite well with no magic.

A lot of the time I get the feeling that the AiME developers knew what kind of game they were making more than the 5e developers were. The only problem I really have is the utter lack of starting tool or language proficiencies, with Backgrounds just giving two skills.

The Cultural Virtues are all quite strong, and I'd say they're not intended to be used alongside regular feats. What they do is make up for the relative lack of magical items available, because when you're not getting more than +1 weapons or any plusses on your armour and shield that +proficeincy to AC is a lot more balanced. In fact the only regular feat I'd probably make available is Skilled (and maybe Weapon Master), and I like that you can gain Expertise in a skill.


No magic...?
You can't be a spellcaster??? :' (

It's a bit complicated.

RAW you can't be a spellcaster, but that's an oversimplification. I'd love to quote the book itself on this, but looking at the copyright notice that's not strictly allowed. The section boils down to 'we have tried to stay as close to Tolkien as possible, and so recommend only using these six classes. However we think Tolkien wanted other people to have their own spin on Middle-Earth, so use other classes if you want.' (Player's Guide, p25, last paragraph of 'Classes').

Even if you stick to the six presented classes it's an oversimplification to say that you can't be a spellcaster. By taking a specific Cultural Virtue (Feats, but seperated by Culture/Race) your character can learn magic. Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain get access to three spells (Opening and Closing, Prohibition and Exclusion, and Secrecy), Elves of Mirkwood get three spells (Singing Arrow, Elf-lights, Enchanted sleep), and outside of the corebook you get stuff like the High Elves of Rivendel being able to forge magical weapons.

As a side note, 'magic items' are assumed to be more important by the simple fact that you can spend a Virtue to have one of the special items of your Culture (which while they aren't generally magical serve the same purpose), dwarf-forged weapons and armour take the place of low level magic weapons and armour (the next step is, of course, elf-blades), and some subclasses allow you to turn one of your items into the equivalent of a magic item.


Well, what are the classes, then?

Scholar: entirely new, not a brilliantly designed class but does the job. It essentially serves as a mixture of healer and loremaster, with some vaguely magical abilities at higher levels.
Slayer: it's the Barbarian. The Rider subclass is quite nice for giving a dedicated mounted Barbarian with some ranged potential, the Foe-hammer is somewhat on the overpowered side.
Treasure Hunter: it's a reworked Rogue. It's quite nice, but it's still a reworked Rogue.
Wanderer: one of the two really nice classes, the Wanderer is a magicless Ranger. It has some issues, particularly the fact that using it outside of Middle Earth requires a campaign map with defined regions (otherwise it's Known Lands feature is useless), but it's still incredibly nice and well balanced.
Warden: arguably the utter triumph of the six classes, the Warden is a magicless Bard. That means it's a magicless buffer with the choice to be either a secondary combatant or a face, and like the Scholar gives a limited ability to get around Hit Dice limitations.


For the record, I think if you wanted to stat Gandalf he'd be a Maiar (homebrew race) Warrior (Weaponmaster) 5/Scholar (homebrew subclass) 10-20. He's insanely overpowered compared to the rest of the Fellowship, even weakened all his stats and his level are in at least the mid-teens and he has access to powers nobody else does, the rest can arguably be built with less than ten levels.

[CheddarChampion]

Well, what are the classes, then?

Scholar - The only new new class, skill monkey for Int and Wis skills, can heal X amount Y times per long rest. Subclasses are for mega-healing or supreme knowledge (and a bit of low level magic at tier 6).
Slayer - Barbarian, rage and all. One subclass gets heavy armor.
Treasure Hunter - See rogue.
Wanderer - Ranger but they excel at 1/3 of the game (travel).
Warden - Bard minus magic.
Warrior - Fighter. (You get the weaponmaster or the knight, which I think are actually a step up from champion and battlemaster.)

[Unoriginal]

Do they provide stats for the characters of the Tolkien's books?

If yes, do they have Bilbo?

[Rafaelfras]

Gandalf wouldn't be in the same league as the PCs.

I know that, but part of an RPG is the progression
The journey from a apprentice to an acomplished wizard is one worth telling, and while Galndalf is in higher leagues, all the Istari where incarnated in human bodies (Gandalf the white being the exemption), Finrod and Luthien where elves, Earendil, who defeated the greatest flying dragon in a flying boat blessed by the Vallar was a half elf, and is stated that the witch king was a powerful sorcerer before becoming a Nazghul, as well as other sorcerers cited throughout the Legendarium (like the mouth of Sauron) so there is room for spellcasting PCs in my opinion.





For the record, I think if you wanted to stat Gandalf he'd be a Maiar (homebrew race) Warrior (Weaponmaster) 5/Scholar (homebrew subclass) 10-20. He's insanely overpowered compared to the rest of the Fellowship, even weakened all his stats and his level are in at least the mid-teens and he has access to powers nobody else does, the rest can arguably be built with less than ten levels.

Wouldn't expect any other way <3

Also I found on ENworld rules for spell casting and found them a very interesting adaptation
Take a look

http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=file&fileid=5380

[Anonymouswizard]

Do they provide stats for the characters of the Tolkien's books?

If yes, do they have Bilbo?

No, with the focus also being on an area where most of them are unlikely to appear, and certainly not in a way that most of the groups would need stats. In Wilderland you'll potentially need to deal with: (King) Bard the Bowman, the survivors of the Erebor expidition, Daín, and Legolas. Bilbo is back in the Shire or on one of his subsequent adventures, Frodo and most of the Fellowship are either unborn or very young (AiME is intended for about sixty to seventy years before the meat of LotR), the only book character I know Cubicle 7 has statted is Radagast, and that's for TOR.


Also a note: Dúnedain and Rivendell elves are intentionally a bit stronger than everybody else. For Dúnedain they get two more stat points and an additional skill compared to the other races of Men, High Elves can see wraiths, are immune to being freightened by wraiths, more easily resist the Shadow, and gain an equivalent to everything Mirkwood elves get, but have a much harder time recovering from corruption.

[Willie the Duck]

That realy make me sad, fellowship of the ring without Gandalf isn't the same
There are epic moments and duels of Power and Will, like Finrod vs Sauron, Luthien against Melkor, Galndalf vs the balrog or the Witch King of Angmar
It's a huge left out :(

No, it is not a left out, it's a different game than you would prefer.
The game is very very deliberately focused on the salt of the earth, small people made of flesh and bone, worried about torches and firewood and rations part of the Middle Earth world and the adventuring within. For people that want the kind of gameplay you are discussing, there's, well... pretty much every other fantasy rpg ever invented, including MERPs as a direct Middle Earth TTRPG, and of course the other well-known game using the D&D 5e engine- D&D 5e (and D&D, while an imperfect match for Middle Earth, has been ported to its' use since before the little brown books were even published, and certainly best matches the high level 'wizards and supernatural creatures' level play you are discussing).

[GlenSmash!]

I've played the module for it from levels 1-5, about 12 weeks total.

Overall the system seems like it was made by fans of Tolkien's books who didn't understand class balance:
One race-specific virtue lets you add your proficiency bonus to AC.
Another lets you auto-crit by spending a hit die.
Then there's plenty of ones you'd never use.
One barbarian subclass lets you use heavy armor and add your Dex mod to AC.
The other makes you a little more deadly on a horse but leaves your horse vulnerable.
One warden (see bard sans magic) subclass is a buffed valor bard.
One warden subclass is a nerfed lore bard.
One warden subclass is based around leaping in front of the blow meant for another, but is better done with the protection fighting style.

The module had its own set of problems:
(Each of these comes down to opinion)
Very much a railroad.
Don't have a wanderer (see ranger)? Sucks to be you.
Stealth is mandatory.
You're always one random chance away from ruin, you need to save your inspiration:
Roll low when meeting an important person? Might as well start over.
Roll low on the journey table? Start making a new character.
Roll low when navigating underground? You're done, son.
Almost every climactic fight ended with one party member being downed then everyone saved by DM Ex Machina.

When this is the case, you don't need anyone who excels at combat. I played a (valor bard) and had to be the tank (which I was not statted for - 14 dex 12 con) and we didn't really suffer for it. I just almost died multiple times then we were saved just after - leading to me and my char thinking there was always someone bettersuited for the job. Not very fun when the "Heroes" are underpowered and unnecessary.

Despite all this we still managed to have fun in the lands of Middle Earth.
If you use this system, understand that the rules and module have less thought put into them than 5e and its modules.

All of this is true and yet I've had tremendous fun with the game knowing I can houserule balance issues as needed.

It does a remarkably good job of bringing a Tolkien feel to a system my players were already familiar with.

[Scarytincan]

I believe their pdfs are on sale right now at drive thru rpg.

Some have given their takes on the classes, ill also add mine. All the classes from dnd have had some minor tweaking to better fit the setting and have entirely new subclasses:

Scholar is the wholly new class, primarily a healer with skills also focused initially, they came out with some optional rules (errata essentially) to tone down their out of combat healing and add a bit more for them to do in combat. My group does not have one and do just fine without the healer. They have a warden which adds ample healing to short rests when HD are spent. Does add some nice flavor skills and knowledge as well however.

Slayer is barbarian. A rider themed subclass that is nicely balanced imo and a heavy armor one that is not (recently discussed changing the heavy armor focused abilities with the one in my group to bear totem level 3 resistance to all but psychic and frenzy level 6 abilities instead. He was fine with it as he preferred to be a nekkid beorning anyway)

Treasure hunter is tweaked rogue, I don't have experience with these, but seem comparable to base rogue in balance.

Wanderer is spell less ranger, well balanced. I disagree with the above statement that they are essential, any party comp can do just fine imo tho at least one person with good survival is recommended. Interesting subclasses (hunter of shadow, very grey company feel, and hunter of beasts, has access to base range volley)

Warden is a spell less bard, came out a bit weak at first but also got some optional rules errata to help. I still also let the one in my group take one of the subclasses for free in addition to their pick that I feel should have been part of core class to make up for no spells (med armor, shields, etc). Has been nicely balanced throughout our game.

And warrior is fighter. Knight subclass is thematic and balanced enough. Weapon master is a bit strong maybe, but mostly the great weapon master (adv on all attacks vs things your size or smaller? In Middle earth that's 90 % of enemies... Ya no. Changed that to crit on 19 to 20 for one in my group, that way he still gets double chance to crit, and can benefit when he gets adv on top of that)

'cultural virtues' are feats, some need some balance work (auto crit on a rogue for one HD? Plus prof to AC just for weilding a sword? And ON A NOBODY RACE OF MAN CULTURE LIKE BARDINGS? this was also errata'd... :p)

'cultures' instead of races.

So yes some cheese to keep an eye out for but overall really did an excellent job catching the theme and feel of low magic, journey focused middle earth during the long defeat phase as sauron rose to power and the power of shadow and fear grew throughout the lands. Very lore friendly for the most part for those who love that aspect of middle earth as well.

Also disagree that stealth is essential, tho as always nice to have on at least one and USEFUL for all to have an easier option to avoid combat at times.

[Scarytincan]

No, with the focus also being on an area where most of them are unlikely to appear


Also a note: Dúnedain and Rivendell elves are intentionally a bit stronger than everybody else. For Dúnedain they get two more stat points and an additional skill compared to the other races of Men, High Elves can see wraiths, are immune to being freightened by wraiths, more easily resist the Shadow, and gain an equivalent to everything Mirkwood elves get, but have a much harder time recovering from corruption.

The initial books were wilderland, but the last few focus on west of the mountains.

There are some of the characters, including nazgul, elrond, glorfindel, and beorn. These are npcs however, not playable character templates. But up to you and your DM, could make for an interesting one off session!

The dunedain do have an extra stat and skill, but on the other hand their cultural heirloom options are for the most part less impressive. Same goes for high elves, in addition to high elves not being able to remove shadow points. With the exception of one of the high elves 'feats', I'd mostly consider them to be relatively well balanced. Imo Aime does a good job with the cultural heirlooms and virtues of encouraging people to play something really interesting rather that just going for strongest (at least regarding race selection)

[Anonymouswizard]

The initial books were wilderland, but the last few focus on west of the mountains.

There are some of the characters, including nazgul, elrond, glorfindel, and beorn. These are npcs however, not playable character templates. But up to you and your DM, could make for an interesting one off session!

I did originally go over both Wilderland and Bree-land in more detail, but decided it wasn't needed and rewrote the post before making it. My real point was that the PC archetypes (so Bilbo, the Dwarves, and so on) are generally either not doing much in this period or haven't even been born yet, with only a relatively small number of groups ever really going to be in a position where they're trying to kill Beorn or assualt Rivendell. Which is kind of really where the question I was asking was aimed, not at foes such as the Nazgul or supporting NPCs like Denethor.


The dunedain do have an extra stat and skill, but on the other hand their cultural heirloom options are for the most part less impressive. Same goes for high elves, in addition to high elves not being able to remove shadow points. With the exception of one of the high elves 'feats', I'd mostly consider them to be relatively well balanced. Imo Aime does a good job with the cultural heirlooms and virtues of encouraging people to play something really interesting rather that just going for strongest (at least regarding race selection)

Oh sure, I think Broken Spells sold me on the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain alone. In fact in general most of the cultures seem to have some rather nice Cultural Virtues, even Dúnedain have a couple of interesting ones, and Dúnedain and High Elves aren't so powerful as to dominate the game, but it's important to understand that yes, these two Cultures are slightly better than the others, and that this is by design to better emulate the books rather than by accident.

Of course, both Cultures I specified aren't great at everything. Dúnedain are a good general pick, but if you want to be Charismatic the Men of the Lake will be an easier path, while animal focused builds may do better witht the Riders of Rohan. In fact picking Dúnedain can be annoying as it locks you out of some of the more interesting and powerful Virtues available to Men (which are, of course, in play from level 1).


Out of interest, can anybody point me to where the errata is? I can't find any official errata but can find that some supplements have 'optional rules', I'm planning to beging expanding my collection with the Bree-land and Rivendell supplements over the Wilderland stuff, but if something important is in the Wilderland books it might be better to get them first.

[GlenSmash!]

Out of interest, can anybody point me to where the errata is? I can't find any official errata but can find that some supplements have 'optional rules', I'm planning to beging expanding my collection with the Bree-land and Rivendell supplements over the Wilderland stuff, but if something important is in the Wilderland books it might be better to get them first.

pg 155 of the Loremaster's Guide has Errata, and rules clarifications for the Player's Guide.

[Scarytincan]

I kind of feel like the 'optional rules' are the devs acknowledging things that maybe weren't fully tested or thought through the first time, so just kinda blanket call them errata hehe. Sorry if that lead to misunderstanding.

[Scarytincan]

In addition to the separate optional rules document for scholars and wardens in the Eaves set, LMG pg 53 has a box of some. I also thought I read somewhere that the barding sword one was nerfed to half proficiency bonus somewhere, but can't recall or find it at the moment...

[GlenSmash!]

I kind of feel like the 'optional rules' are the devs acknowledging things that maybe weren't fully tested or thought through the first time, so just kinda blanket call them errata hehe. Sorry if that lead to misunderstanding.

Back on the Cubicle 7 forums before they shut down, the devs still backed up what was in the Player's Guide, but acknowledged the dissatisfaction with optional rules. Whether that's corporate jargon for "we made a mistake" or whether it is what they say it is doesn't matter much to me.

I do prefer the optional rules and in one case don't think they went far enough and implement a house rule.

[Anonymouswizard]

In addition to the separate optional rules document for scholars and wardens in the Eaves set, LMG pg 53 has a box of some. I also thought I read somewhere that the barding sword one was nerfed to half proficiency bonus somewhere, but can't recall or find it at the moment...

LMG 53 (yes I have it, because it's the obvious second purchase) has an optional rule that makes the Barding Swordsman Vritue require you to not use a shield*. Which I think works when we take Great Shields into account, at low levels it's as good as a normal shield, at medium levels it competes with using a Great Shield, and only provides a boost at high levels. Bare in mind that normally the highest AC possible for non-Slayers is 21 (Leather corslet+20Dex+Great Shield), 24 for Slayers, this drops a Barding's highest possible AC from 27 to a more reasonable 23.

The entire section is essentially fixing three Virtues. One of them utterly, utterly broken if playing at high levels, and another one fiddly enough to be not worth bothering with.

* I honestly didn't realise this wasn't part of the Virtue on my first reading.

[GlenSmash!]

LMG 53 (yes I have it, because it's the obvious second purchase) has an optional rule that makes the Barding Swordsman Vritue require you to not use a shield*. Which I think works when we take Great Shields into account, at low levels it's as good as a normal shield, at medium levels it competes with using a Great Shield, and only provides a boost at high levels. Bare in mind that normally the highest AC possible for non-Slayers is 21 (Leather corslet+20Dex+Great Shield), 24 for Slayers, this drops a Barding's highest possible AC from 27 to a more reasonable 23.

The entire section is essentially fixing three Virtues. One of them utterly, utterly broken if playing at high levels, and another one fiddly enough to be not worth bothering with.

* I honestly didn't realise this wasn't part of the Virtue on my first reading.

I still have a hard time with Bardings being able to be so good with a sword that their AC is +2 to +6 higher then anybody else. Even losing the shields just shifts the problem. Why are Barding schools for swordsmanship so good? What narrative reason do they have for not using shields?

Bardings should not be able to be that much better swordsman than anyone else, which includes Aragorn and Boromir types I might add.

I houseruled that virtue back to a flat +1 (like it was in Version 1 of the Players Guide) where it belongs.

[Scarytincan]

I still have a hard time with Bardings being able to be so good with a sword that their AC is +2 to +6 higher then anybody else. Even losing the shields just shifts the problem. Why are Barding schools for swordsmanship so good? What narrative reason do they have for not using shields?

Bardings should not be able to be that much better swordsman than anyone else, which includes Aragorn and Boromir types I might add.

I houseruled that virtue back to a flat +1 (like it was in Version 1 of the Players Guide) where it belongs.

This. All this. Oh you're a 3000 year old elf weapon master who has trained your whole life in combat? Nope. Level 1 barding scholar with sword baby!

.......k.

I told my players ahead of time at best I'd let it be plus 2, but would probably make a new option altogether to offer. Surprisingly the player who was considering it (and totally doesn't always try to make cheese builds btw, honest!) opted for a different race after that. Then picked great weapon master... Lol

[Anonymouswizard]

I still have a hard time with Bardings being able to be so good with a sword that their AC is +2 to +6 higher then anybody else. Even losing the shields just shifts the problem. Why are Barding schools for swordsmanship so good? What narrative reason do they have for not using shields?

Bardings should not be able to be that much better swordsman than anyone else, which includes Aragorn and Boromir types I might add.

I houseruled that virtue back to a flat +1 (like it was in Version 1 of the Players Guide) where it belongs.

I'm not sure a flat +1 works, it's not really worth the investment then (remember that unless it's your starting Virtue you can take +1 DEX instead, which theoretically gives your all that and more). I'd potentially see a flat +2 or +3 without a shield working, or +2 but no Great Shields.

I was also focused more on the mechanics side than the lore side. I will admit, however, that I found it a bit weird that it wasn't a common virtue (every culture should be and to produce great swordsmen*). I mean, I haven't read much outside of LotR and The Hobbit, but if I was going to associate any weaponry with the followers of Bard the Bowman it would probably be the longbow. But from a mechanics perspective giving up a feat for +2AC is fairly balanced (read: I've seen much, much worse).

So let's step back. Is the problem the strength of the Virtue? If so either half proficiency or not being useable with a shield should make it mostly fine (potentially both if you're really worried about balance). Is it that Bardings are better swordsmen than everybody else? Allow characters of other Cultures to take the Virtue. It would certainly make sense on the Gondor list, although I'd personally give them a different virtue (maybe half proficiency bonus with shield). I've also considered capping the Swordsman bonus at +4 to just make it equal to a Great Shield, at that point it still provides a benefit (free hand or off hand weapon) but it doesn't make Bardings the best warriors around.

* If I had to restrict it I'd have probably given it to Gondor or Rivendell first.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm not sure a flat +1 works, it's not really worth the investment then (remember that unless it's your starting Virtue you can take +1 DEX instead, which theoretically gives your all that and more). I'd potentially see a flat +2 or +3 without a shield working, or +2 but no Great Shields.

I was also focused more on the mechanics side than the lore side. I will admit, however, that I found it a bit weird that it wasn't a common virtue (every culture should be and to produce great swordsmen*). I mean, I haven't read much outside of LotR and The Hobbit, but if I was going to associate any weaponry with the followers of Bard the Bowman it would probably be the longbow. But from a mechanics perspective giving up a feat for +2AC is fairly balanced (read: I've seen much, much worse).

So let's step back. Is the problem the strength of the Virtue? If so either half proficiency or not being useable with a shield should make it mostly fine (potentially both if you're really worried about balance). Is it that Bardings are better swordsmen than everybody else? Allow characters of other Cultures to take the Virtue. It would certainly make sense on the Gondor list, although I'd personally give them a different virtue (maybe half proficiency bonus with shield). I've also considered capping the Swordsman bonus at +4 to just make it equal to a Great Shield, at that point it still provides a benefit (free hand or off hand weapon) but it doesn't make Bardings the best warriors around.

* If I had to restrict it I'd have probably given it to Gondor or Rivendell first.

Well since Dwarves can get a +1 AC from their virtue but only while underground, I think the precedent is there.

Even if it was +2 I'd want to go tweak the other AC increasing Virtues to be in line.

Edit: especially since a player has much more control over what weapon they use than if they are underground or not.