Roleplaying Help convince me how Rogues can be 'epic'? [Archive]

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 10:55 AM

Yora

2019-03-02, 11:03 AM

Well, rogues aren't doing flashy destruction on a massive scale. Doing things unseen is their whole point.

Jophiel

2019-03-02, 11:08 AM

A sweet heist of an important item, defeating tricks and traps and guards along the way using skill, stealth and physical dexterity is a common enough epic movie scene. It's just hard to translate into the game since it's a solo endeavor and the way the skill system is set up, it's probably too easy to blow a roll which is the exact opposite of epic. There's also a bunch of magical effects that do the same stuff so "Creeps stealthily past the guards through the shadows" isn't that awe inspiring when "Casts Invisibility [or Pass with Trace, etc] and moseys past the guards" is also an option.

Cicciograna

2019-03-02, 11:10 AM

A legendary rogue steals the Arkenstone from Smaug's hoard and replaces it with a shard of glass without him noticing.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 11:25 AM

Well, rogues aren't doing flashy destruction on a massive scale. Doing things unseen is their whole point.

Oh yeah I definitely understand that, but argh, it's hard to explain, I just find it pretty hard to imagine what these 'unseen things' would be that would be, well, legendary.

A sweet heist of an important item, defeating tricks and traps and guards along the way using skill, stealth and physical dexterity is a common enough epic movie scene. It's just hard to translate into the game since it's a solo endeavor and the way the skill system is set up, it's probably too easy to blow a roll which is the exact opposite of epic. There's also a bunch of magical effects that do the same stuff so "Creeps stealthily past the guards through the shadows" isn't that awe inspiring when "Casts Invisibility [or Pass with Trace, etc] and moseys past the guards" is also an option.

Yeah this is kind of what I mean! I can definitely envisage a rogue doing a lot of cool stuff. A 'sweet heist' as you've put it! But as you've also put, the ''creeping stealthily past the guards'' (kinda cool!) is really not that inspiring in comparison to the ''casting invisibility etc''.

You could say, well, there's no need to compare. But in a scenario where you can easily imagine both characters being played, it's hard not to compare isn't it?

A legendary rogue steals the Arkenstone from Smaug's hoard and replaces it with a shard of glass without him noticing.

You know I was thinking specifically about Bilbo last night, and you're right what he did was legendary - but, I don't know. It's not the same is it? Bilbo's in a group with Thorin and friggin Gandalf. Bilbo's a hobbit, as 'normal' as they come. The hobbits are heroic exactly because they're normal folk, being thrust into extraordinary circumstances - but at the end of the day, they're just doing their best. It's the same way I view Frodo and Sam in LotR, their journey was epic, but I would say they, themselves, are the epitome of 'normal folk'.

SkipSandwich

2019-03-02, 11:28 AM

Rogues are the trickster heroes, they find thier moments of glory and victory by stealing it from thier opponents, sometimes literally.

The party is facing off against a powerful minion of the arch-lich, trying to prevent them from getting away with the chest holding the Staff of Wee Jas but the he is just too powerful and the party is forced to retreat. As the team dispairs the Rogue clears his throat and with a smirk pulls the staff out from under his coat. "Switched it for a fake while y'all had 'em distracted".

Don Tarentino is suspected of being the head of an orginized crime syndicate. The PCs decide to dress up as visiting minor nobility in order to attend a party at the Dons estate so as to search for clues. They are unfortunately caught searching through his office and, unarmed and outnumbered, quickly subdued and restrained. The Don gloats about how futile thier actions are and how no one will ever find thier bodies when suddenly, the Monk stops acting scared and smirks "Did you catch all that Mika?"

"Every. Last. Word." Replies the disembodied voice of Mika, star of the stage and professional Arcane Trickster. "And let me tell you, the the Sherrif and Mayor are getting one hell of a show right now, wave hi to my scrying eye Donnie!"

TheCleverGuy

2019-03-02, 11:32 AM

Arya Stark in Game of Thrones is pretty epic Asassin Rogue. Or how about Robin Hood, or other Swashbuckler-type rogues? Less about stealth and more about swordplay and exploiting opponents' weaknesses.

LudicSavant

2019-03-02, 11:35 AM

Oh yeah I definitely understand that, but argh, it's hard to explain, I just find it pretty hard to imagine what these 'unseen things' would be that would be, well, legendary.

There are lots of stories of legendary thieves and tricksters in classic literature. So much so that the "gentleman thief" and "trickster hero" are major mythological archetypes. Might be good to look at some of those stories for inspiration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman_thief

Yora

2019-03-02, 11:44 AM

Oh yeah I definitely understand that, but argh, it's hard to explain, I just find it pretty hard to imagine what these 'unseen things' would be that would be, well, legendary.

Neither do I. That's my point. I don't think rogues can be epic. The most amazing things they can do really only work when they head out alone, which isn't really an option for a group game.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 11:51 AM

Rogues are the trickster heroes, they find thier moments of glory and victory by stealing it from thier opponents, sometimes literally.

Hmmm ok that concept is something I can get behind, I think! Because then their 'stealing' could actually have a major and potentially immediate consequence. Rather than, 'the rogue stole this, which enabled the mighty warrior to do this, etc.' which would dilute the whole importance of it all.

Arya Stark in Game of Thrones is pretty epic Asassin Rogue. Or how about Robin Hood, or other Swashbuckler-type rogues? Less about stealth and more about swordplay and exploiting opponents' weaknesses.

The thing about this is really, is that, taking Robin Hood or a Swashbuckler as an example - it is their ability with their bow and sword respectively, rather than their 'rogueishness' that is legendary. With a Swashbuckler, admittedly, you have the whole wit and panache, but again, I see that as humorous or 'cool' at best, rather than, well, awe inspiring or epic.

Arya is a pretty good example though! I hadn't thought about her, it's been a loooong time since I've seen Game of Thrones though and my memory is terrible. I might try and see if there are any 'best of Arya' clips on youtube or something to trigger any inspiration.

There are lots of stories of legendary thieves and tricksters in classic literature. So much so that the "gentleman thief" and "trickster hero" are major mythological archetypes. Might be good to look at some of those stories for inspiration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman_thief

Hmm thank you, that's actually a really good idea - perhaps reading about a thief in the context of gods and monsters would put things more into perspective for me.

Contrast

2019-03-02, 11:51 AM

Ventruenox

2019-03-02, 11:53 AM

If you want to take the high road, sure. These other posters have good advice. Or, then there is this. (https://youtu.be/s4ZeTAfYoY4)

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 11:54 AM

Neither do I. That's my point. I don't think rogues can be epic. The most amazing things they can do really only work when they head out alone, which isn't really an option for a group game.

Hmm, doesn't that personally put you off the class a little bit? I'd just hate to think that the 'coolest thing I could do' would be really.. not that amazing in comparison to the other party members actions?

Kadesh

2019-03-02, 11:54 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2UfGK98sIo

Diablo 3 Demon Hunter is basically the archetypal rogue. I don't think their actions could be considered anything other than heroic?

stoutstien

2019-03-02, 11:58 AM

You can Dodge fireballs, one shot mooks with a blowdart nettle, never roll less than 10 on a ablity check, and that's not even factoring sub classes

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 11:58 AM

I mean part of the point of playing a rogue is doing roguey things. If you don't find that to be epic there's nothing wrong with that but it is what it is.

An arcane trickster can sneak into the royal palace, steal the crown off the kings head and make their exit with no-one any the wiser.

You list a barbarian strangling a dragon - a rogue can do more damage with a single flick of a thrown knife than the barbarian does with his great axe (not to mention if the rogue is the wrestling type he's probably even better than the barbarian...), often instantly enemies that would take the fighter several blows to finish. When that dragon breathes fire on the team the rogue is the one doing some sort of epic backflip while everyone else gets roasted.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as argumentative! That's honestly not my intention. It's (clearly) true that I don't find them as 'epic' as the other classes, but, hmm, I want to, which is why I posted this thread, to try and understand them better, or get some inspiration. And honestly there's been some great advice so far!

I think I think pretty visually, and the images you've just described there are just the sort of stuff I've been trying to imagine myself. 'single flick of a thrown knife', 'epic backflip' etc. Those are so specific to a Rogue (well, I guess maybe a monk would backflip, but you know) that it's enabling them to shine by themselves.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 12:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2UfGK98sIo

Diablo 3 Demon Hunter is basically the archetypal rogue. I don't think their actions could be considered anything other than heroic?

Oh, that's embarrassing, I'm a massive Diablo 3 player and I hadn't even thought about Demon Hunters in a rogue context. Uh. That is something to think about now!

Crucius

2019-03-02, 12:02 PM

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 12:10 PM

I kind of agree with you, it's hard to imagine. But the greatness of the rogue is measured by the worth of their target, be it an immensely powerful magical item, or a god themselves.

Many roguish things are in the style of stealth or guile, a thing almost any other class/person could do just as well (magic users especially). A player playing a clever game of intrigue doesn't need to use a rogue to do roguish things. Therefore it is important to find just what exactly sets the rogue apart from all the other classes. Looking at the base rogue abilities the one that jumps out at me is their capstone; Stroke of Luck. Roll a nat 20 on that one deception roll against a greater demon in the nine hells and convince him to strike a deal with YOU instead of the other way around.

For a rogue to be epic it depends on the context and the player's creativity. But then again I think a sorcerer for example could do it better most of the time.

Sad trumpets.

Mmm yeah, this has pretty been exactly my train of thought! Especially ''almost any other class/person could do just as well (magic users especially)'' - But having said that, what you've said about the worth of their target is something to think about. Stealing from a God (or whatever) is certainly pretty 'epic sounding'. I suppose it's just annoying me that, well, I can imagine a Wizard stealing from a God just as (or even more so) easily.

However, as Contrast wrote above, there are specifically 'roguey' things I hadn't thought about before. For example, doing an awesome backflip out of a fireball. I mean, sure, other classes could technically do that too, but it is a very typically rogueish thing - and it's 'epic'.

So all in all I am changing my mind a little bit!

Nhorianscum

2019-03-02, 12:18 PM

Jophiel

2019-03-02, 12:25 PM

There's epic rogues, thieves, tricksters and swashbucklers in media but they mostly exist in worlds where they don't have to compete with commonplace magic or otherwise have tricks exclusive to the profession. Once you have people who turn invisible, fly, teleport, spider climb, move items with magical force, etc the ability to crouch in a shadow or use wires to open a lock feels a bit quaint. I think the rogue archetype suffered the most during the lifetime of D&D as it lost most of its unique tricks (and casters became increasingly flexible with their spell choices).

ImproperJustice

2019-03-02, 12:35 PM

Ever watch the Mummy?
The good Brandon Frasier version.

It’s a D20 Modern session made into a movie.

In it, Evee’s brother (the Fast hero) picks Imotep’s pocket while the guy is choking him, obtaining the mystical McGuffin needed to secure his defeat?

Always thought that was pretty epic.

Or in the sequal when he’s taking dudes out with a sniper rifle?

How about Indiana Jones or Nathan Drake?
Both epic Rogues.

Captain Jack Sparrow?
Epic Rogue.

I played an Epic Rogue in a convention game with level 20 characters vs. Tiamat.

Party charged through the door, got nailed with Dispel Magic and subsequently oblitered by her multi breath attack.

Wizard went in after and fought her solo for a bit, while the Rogue snuck in and made its way to the treasure horde. With a little luck, Rogue found an item she was vulnerable too just as the Wizard’s defenses began to crumble.

Rogue then distracted Tiamat while Wizard recovered, and finally Rogue delivered a killer backstab. Was pretty epic.

Dimers

2019-03-02, 12:43 PM

An epic rogue should be able to steal concepts, poison nations, hide from death. It's not very well supported in 5e. Admittedly, none of the other classes get to that level of EPIC!! either, so fair's fair.

If what sets the rogue apart is skill, I suggest (presuming you're DMing) allowing the party rogue to attempt things that are simply not an option for other classes, at the very least in their Expertise skills. A ranger or monk might have almost as much Sleight Of Hand as a rogue, but only the rogue is allowed a roll to steal the king's hair, the duke's locket and the queen's jeweled brassiere during a three-minute interview in court.

Making the rogue's raw numbers more meaningful takes a potential downside of this edition -- the paucity of guidelines on skill DCs -- and turns it into an entertaining and inspiring plus.

stoutstien

2019-03-02, 12:44 PM

Urukubarr

2019-03-02, 01:25 PM

I made a 5 barbarian (subclass up for debate but both bear and elk totem were nice) 15 rogue (once again lots of choice, I personally went scout for more skills and move speed) shortsword and board to get SA and rage damage. played him as a character that just loved violence, he could be sneaky and fast but if and when that failed they still were not safe.

being able to bonus action sprint around and into peoples faces for rage / SA damage, using reckless to provide your own SA, stacking uncanny dodge on top of barbarian resistance or using scout to move around as a reaction (I was a tabaxi too) reflex saves were a breeze. like I said it was a character that just loved flying around and inflecting violence, I very much played him like barbatos lupus rex. he was not ready to stop and was just like "lets do it then!" I also was trying to avoid using magic and relying on skills and utility for out of combat action. you could slip fighter in there to if you wanted.

I realize that's not pure rogue, but I have always found mixing martial classes (more so then casters) to achieve unique gameplay experiences just great fun.

1Pirate

2019-03-02, 02:08 PM

If you wanna go subclasses and magic items. A 13+ level Thief with a Staff of the Magi can do some pretty epic things.

JackPhoenix

2019-03-02, 02:19 PM

Are you even a rogue if you haven't stood toe to toe with an ancient red dragon and got it to use its breath attack and after the smoke clears you are just standing there brushing the ash off your shoulder?

As bad as the rest of the movie was, this scene is something D&D rogue could plausibly do... the cannons aren't targetting him directly, so it's more of a Dex-save AoE than attack rolls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKNsO-HE9g8

sophontteks

2019-03-02, 03:13 PM

Oh geeze, so many things to think of. I mean we are talking about a class with the most skills, expertise, great mobility, and a crazy high alpha.

First to mind. Bill in King Author dropping people from 175 yards with a bow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-dxIjDoR1g

Next, game of thrones, of course. Features several rogues.
Like Bron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN30YMzja6Y (Bron Shot a dragon BTW. That's about as epic as you can get)
Clubfoot Carl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnZMD8AV_aY
Ramsey Bolton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vhIWC2Boik
And the Many faced man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgrf4JwiGvU

Prince of Persia shows off amazing athletics feats and mobile fighting rogues are known for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-sRTNrhnGY

This, of course, goes to Alladin. I mean we've known iconic rogues all the way back to our childhood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsWRUfnR7OI

Westley from the princess Bride has all the charm and swordskill we'd expect of a rogue. Of course Inigo Montoya is most likely a rogue as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT0TBWg3C3k

Bilbo Baggins was a rogue. Straight up hired to be a Burglar.
Everyone knows and loves Han Solo. He's a rogue.
Loki in avengers is a rogue.
etc etc.

Can't throw a stick without hitting an infamous rogue in cinema.

J-H

2019-03-02, 03:19 PM

After a week of preparation, all six Noble houses in Stuckup City are robbed in one night without anyone seeing a thing. The perpetrator is never detected, walking away with 4 magical items, 18,000 in gold and gems, and enough evidence to nail two of them for slave-trading. (thief rogue)

A lone duelist clad in light armor uses his wit and natural grace to win a duel against a master swordsman in seconds. Instead of a flurry of blows, he strikes swiftly, lunging forwards and disabling his foe with a single well-timed strike (Improved Initiative to go first, Swashbuckler for auto-sneak attack, Assassin for auto-crit and double damage for something like 33d6+20 damage).

The Sultan's adviser is murdered during a dinner. A young servant, Habib, escapes, and the manhunt walks right past a low-end middle-aged merchant, Saldan, with his bag full of scented perfumes. The merchant vanishes 30 minutes later, as Alhabid the elderly cart-driver makes a late supply run to a mansion outside the city walls. (disguises/false identities).

The challenge is that most rogue epic moments are either in secret, or require the rogue to be operating alone for maximum elusivity.

dejarnjc

2019-03-02, 03:29 PM

When I think epic rogue I think of all those cheesy (and some non-cheesy) anime characters out there. You know, the ones people make memes out of...

"Teleports behind you...'nothing personal kid'".
Supernatural speed and agility. Single shots/blows doing massive damage.

JoeJ

2019-03-02, 03:33 PM

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laKPtOv9Kp4) is what I think of when I hear the phrase "epic rogue."

sophontteks

2019-03-02, 03:44 PM

Oh...duhhh.
I forgot about bard from The Hobbit. He killed a dragon.

Zorrah

2019-03-02, 03:51 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4vDgZOhuHA

Though, he gets caught in the end, it becomes far more epic when you learn that he wanted to get caught later on.

ImproperJustice

2019-03-02, 04:16 PM

How about the Hero of Skill from Fable 2?

Sure, he was jerk, but the guy was impressive.

Mercurias

2019-03-02, 04:25 PM

I was part of a campaign where our party's rogue PC had talked to the GM and made a quiet solo session for the two of them in which the Rogue had stolen back a bag containing what was essentially a horrifying black hole which sucked up anything facing the open bag, including magical effects. It had been literally placed in storage by a god while the god tried to find a way to destroyit. The Rogue waited until the one day a year when the god was called down to inhabit a mortal and give proclamations to its people, and then he snuck through the hidden door to the god's realm that he'd paid a wizard to devise. He braved traps, hid from angels, CHARMED another god who let him by, and came back with the bag successfully hidden in a seal.

The player never told us anything about it. They only asked if it was okay, since the player's rogue was part of our campaign, and we told them to go nuts.

At the end of the campaign, the party had failed. They were staring at the big bad as he rose from the depths of the ocean in his new form as a draconic demigod.

As the party was staring a literal incarnation of ruin in the eyes, the GM asked each of us what we wanted to do.

The Rogue went last, and he very calmly stated that he was going to remove the seal on an object we'd thought was lost forever nearly a year ago.

Then he opened the bag so it faced the BBEG, causing it and a lake's worth of water to be ripped out of existence through a hole in reality roughly the size of a soft ball.

The rogue buttoned the bag back up, re-sealed it, and told the party where he'd like them to take him for drinks, and that he was reasonably sure everyone else would be buying.

Darth Ultron

2019-03-02, 04:53 PM

Well, an Epic Rogue is:

*James Bond
*Jason Borne
*Ethan Hunt

And Superheros like: Spider Man, Batman, or Black Widow.

Though the Whole Point of a Rogue is really that they don't overly get noticed. They are not in Epic Pictures. They are somewhere...behind that picture, unseen.

Though rogues do get the tricky...the unknown known recognition. Sure most of the public is clueless....but the People of Power know...well, sort of know, the character might have done ''something". They don't know for sure and can't prove it....but still, they know. Made all more telling when the character makes a quip like ''well, I was on a beach recently(where the god lord necromancer of doom...somehow..fell on his own Dagger of Doom, RIGHT, before he was about to take over the world.....but the character was not there for that....right?)

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 04:57 PM

Woah thanks for the replies guys, I just had a nap :smallsigh: and woke up to a loads more replies! Sorry I wont be able to reply to everyone.

I think the issue I have with people citing people like, for example - Sam Gamgee, Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow, Bilbo Baggins, Aladdin, etc. Is that to me, I think it's their force of personality or the narrative they're thrust into that makes them the characters they are, rather than their 'rogueishness' - and you could essentially substitute in any other class and they'd still be as 'epic'.

When Sam kills Shelob, that's epic, sure, but that's some epic fighting.Jack Sparrow does some crazy things, but they're in a world (more or less) without wizards and magic and elder demons (in fact, Jack Sparrow staring down the Kraken was epic, but again, that's not 'roguey') - As Crucius wrote somewhere earlier 'Many roguish things are in the style of stealth or guile, a thing almost any other class/person could do just as well (magic users especially)'.

I think we've got to single out what is specific to a rogue. I think that's different to everybody, but to me it's more or less -

Stealthiness
Sleight of hand
Nimble-ness, or agility.
Thievery.

Jophiel wrote above that ''"Creeps stealthily past the guards through the shadows' isn't that awe inspiring when 'Casts Invisibility [or Pass with Trace, etc] and moseys past the guards' is also an option.'' - And I think herein lies part of problem. In a world with this sort of power, how can a Rogue compete with the other classes?

That being said however, I love what Dimmers said - ''An epic rogue should be able to steal concepts, poison nations, hide from death.'' - That is 'rogueishness' to such an extreme that it sounds amazing. Obviously, a Wizard could do those things, the same way a monk does do awesome backflips, but they're also very rogue-ish things. Specifically rogueish. The sort of stuff you'd imagine a rogue to do in some myth.

So all in all, I think there is room for rogues to be 'epic' - I've just got to think outside the box a little bit.

Lastly, I reeeeally don't want to sound dismissive of peoples ideas. Character concepts are personal stuff and everyone has different ideas! I'm only trying to discuss things, I realise I'm not the best at writing though!

JoeJ

2019-03-02, 05:04 PM

No brains

2019-03-02, 05:13 PM

There was that 'odd' guy who went to 'see' a lot of things. What was his name? Right. Abe.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Abe%27s_Oddysee_Cover.jpg/220px-Abe%27s_Oddysee_Cover.jpg

Seriously, if "Nobody had tricked me! Nobody has blinded me!" isn't a deception check with expertise and reliable talent, nothing is. It's a trick Odysseus pulled in the Odyssey, something considered 'epic' for a couple thousand years.

Though in terms of becoming 'epic' with what a D&D build gives a rogue, it's possible to make an ancient red dragon sweat when you can no-sale its 26d6 fire breath and hit it back for 11d6, possibly twice a round with smart use of a reaction. I think keeping pace in a damage race with a whale-sized dragon is epic, especially when you can describe it as dodging into a 360 degree no-scope.

As for other uses of nimbleness, sleight of hand, and other uses of dexterity, it's sort of the point that subtlety isn't flashy. Sort of like how the best spy in the world would be the least well-known. The proof is in the absence of pudding.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 05:15 PM

In the distant past in my World of Battersea there was a legendary gnome named Talonpoika who was so skillful a rogue that he could hide in his own shadow. Wizards exist because he stole the spellbook of the goddess of magic and made copies (she got it back eventually).

Mmm see I really like this, that's some epic thievery. Stealing from a goddess, and I love how all Wizards could trace their lineage directly back to that one action.

Unoriginal

2019-03-02, 05:21 PM

Obviously, a Wizard could do those things,

That "wizards can do anything" myth needs to die. Seriously.

D&D Wizards are limited. They can't just do whatever the others do, and attributing them the epic feats of other fantasy archetypes just because they're wizards is not doing those archetypes or the wizard justice.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 05:35 PM

That "wizards can do anything" myth needs to die. Seriously.

D&D Wizards are limited. They can't just do whatever the others do, and attributing them the epic feats of other fantasy archetypes just because they're wizards is not doing those archetypes or the wizard justice.

Hmm, I mean, sort of? The thing is, they, well, can do a lot can't they?

I'm not comparing, let's say, an epic warrior, or a barbarian to a wizard - because you'd never imagine a wizard single handedly punching an army to death. I'm not comparing a ranger or a druid to a wizard, because you don't classicly imagine a wizard being a master archer, or completely at one with the natural outdoors.

However, a wizard can 'snap their fingers' and turn invisible - which pretty much does tread on the toes of 'stealthiness' in general. In the same vein, I can very easily imagine an evil necromancer 'poisoning a nation' or 'hiding from death itself'.

And you're right, that in D&D wizards are technically limited (how on earth would you poison an entire nation?) - but I don't think saying some evil wizard 'could' is beyond the scope of imagination, it's exactly the sort of thing you might read about in a novel.

Unoriginal

2019-03-02, 05:38 PM

However, a wizard can 'snap their fingers' and turn invisible - which pretty much does tread on the toes of 'stealthiness' in general.

Have you read what the spell Invisibility does, in 5e?

Deathhappens

2019-03-02, 05:38 PM

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 05:42 PM

Have you read what the spell Invisibility does, in 5e?

Honestly I wasn't talking about specifically the 'Invisibilty' spell - rather the many spells in general that enable wizards to be 'stealthy', in general.

Unoriginal

2019-03-02, 05:45 PM

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 05:47 PM

I know this might not be very helpful if you haven't played the game itself, but something like the final part of the Thieves' Guild questline in Elder Scrolls:Oblivion comes to mind; putting together rare artifacts and exotic gadgets (like an arrow shaped like a key that fits a specific keyhole) in order to sneak into the White-Gold Tower and steal one of the titular Elder Scrolls (powerful objects that record all history, past, present and future). But even that is closer to 'high-level' than 'actually epic'. An Epic Rogue, if they be of a thieving bent, might be able to steal ideas and concepts from the hearts of men. An Epic Assassin might be able to sneak up on the God of Stealth themselves (well...more likely an avatar or really minor godling, mechanically, but you get the gist). No restraint, no lock nor trap can hold them. Everywhere there is shadow, they are too (especially if they're prestiged into Shadowdancer!). Etcetera, etcetera.

It's not about being flashy. It's about sending a message.

Ahh no I love this sort of stuff! Really this is the sort of thing I've been trying to imagine and get inside my head. I have played that part of Oblivion, but um, that was when Oblivion was released - I may have to read up about that quest a little!

Really, I like this idea of taking 'rogueish' ideals to this extreme. It sort of cements the class more for me, as an individual class, rather than something 'anyone could do'.

Also, if you want to know how D&D rogues can be epic, how about the story of Andromalius?

Andromalius was a rogue, full of wit and mischief, favored of Olidammara, the god of thieves. On his deathbed, however, he repented from all his crimes and pranks and roguish acts... successfully managing to steal his own soul from his god.

Oh wow alright that does sound amazing actually, I haven't heard anything about that before - I'm going to look him up right now, thanks!

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 06:15 PM

Which spells, in particular?

Hmm, again honestly - I don't know. I just haven't been playing D&D long enough to remember them, or even be sure that I'm correct in what I'm saying in the first place. And you're right, maybe I am completely wrong. I could have sworn there were many 'stealthy' spells though, invisibilty-esque spells, and isn't there a silent-step spell?

What is your particular issue with what I'm saying though? (I don't mean that derisively! I'm genuinely asking). Even if a wizard in D&D can't technically be quite as stealthy as a thief, surely they can do a pretty good job of it? And leaving stealth completely aside, it seems to me that magic in general (perhaps not specific to D&D) does tread on the toes of others abilities, just by it's 'can do anything - it's magic' nature.

Lastly, I would actually love to know what I'm getting wrong with these spells and stuff - I really did believe wizards could do stealth pretty dang well. If they can't (as I'm suspecting from what you're saying!) then it would really interest me why not.

MrStabby

2019-03-02, 06:28 PM

I think there are two parts to the question.

One is can the concept of a rogue/thief be EPIC.

Two is can the class be EPIC.

Can you be epic by stealing something? This I think is tough. Epic isn't being; It is doing. What is the impactof what you have stolen? Ifstealing the kings shoes off his feet can be replicated by a walk in a wild magic field then it isn't that epic. If stealing the mcguffin of awesome power is epic, then so is building it in the first place or taking it by force.

How about the class? Given that this is in the 5th Ed forum I am guessing the question is about the class rather than the concept. A few things the class can offer:

Speed - the fastest runner alive. The fastest climber. A high level human thief can climb 180 ft in 6 seconds on the first round of combat. Not quite teleport but they can do it in an antimagic field.

Font of all knowledge - with abundant expertise and reliable talent and with some help from stroke of luck, if something can be known a rogue knows it.

Supremely skilled warrior - That impossible shot: through cover, past armour, on a sprinting target, in darkness, whilst sledging down the side of a mountain on a troll that is fighting back... the epic rogue can pull a stroke of luck and nail it.

Beating a titan in a shoving contest - a strength rogue with expertise in athletics and that guaranteed natural 20 coming back is going to succeed where the epic barbarian failed.

Death incarnate - when you want that mightiest of warriors lying dead at your feet in the shortest length of time. When epic is not just defeating them but leaving them in pieces before anyone can intercede... you need an assassin.

When you want epic rogue, think Prometheus stealing fire from the gods.

Kalashak

2019-03-02, 06:33 PM

Hmm, again honestly - I don't know. I just haven't been playing D&D long enough to remember them, or even be sure that I'm correct in what I'm saying in the first place. And you're right, maybe I am completely wrong. I could have sworn there were many 'stealthy' spells though, invisibilty-esque spells, and isn't there a silent-step spell?

What is your particular issue with what I'm saying though? (I don't mean that derisively! I'm genuinely asking). Even if a wizard in D&D can't technically be quite as stealthy as a thief, surely they can do a pretty good job of it? And leaving stealth completely aside, it seems to me that magic in general (perhaps not specific to D&D) does tread on the toes of others abilities, just by it's 'can do anything - it's magic' nature.

Lastly, I would actually love to know what I'm getting wrong with these spells and stuff - I really did believe wizards could do stealth pretty dang well. If they can't (as I'm suspecting from what you're saying!) then it would really interest me why not.

I think your larger point is fine, since you seem to not be talking specifically about how 5th edition works mechanically and are looking at just general fiction. In 5th edition, sure invisibility can't mechanically recreate stealth but in terms of just using your imagination it's hard to divorce the idea that "you can't see me" doesn't make you really good at sneaking.

Kadesh

2019-03-02, 06:47 PM

Also, if you want to know how D&D rogues can be epic, how about the story of Andromalius?

Andromalius was a rogue, full of wit and mischief, favored of Olidammara, the god of thieves. On his deathbed, however, he repented from all his crimes and pranks and roguish acts... successfully managing to steal his own soul from his god.

Which spells, in particular?

For things which obviate, replicate, or mitigate Rogue's abilities, such as typical Rogue traits like stealing things, hiding well and observing, party facing, and general skill monkey, leaving secret notes and deciphering clues, I was going to go through the spell list of the classes, but I've made it through Bard and Cleric PHB only before I got bored.
Cantrips; Friends, Mage Hand, Message, Minor Illusion, Vicious Mockery, Guidance, Thaumaturgy
1; Animal Friendship, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Illusory Script, Silent Image, Speak With Animals, Unseen Servant, Command, Detect Evil and Good, Detect Poison And Disease, Purify Food and Drink, Create Water
2; Animal Messenger, Calm Emotions, Crown of Madness, Detect Thoughts, Enhance Ability, Enthrall, Invisibility, Knock, Locate Animals or Plants, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Zone of Truth, Augury, Find Traps,
3; Clairvoyance, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Nondetection, Sending, Speak With Dead, Speak With Plants, Tongues, Create Food and Water, Meld Into Stone, Water Walk
4; Compulsion, Greater Invisibility, Hallucinatory Terrain, Locate Creature, Polymorph, Divination, Freedom of Movement, Stone Shape,
5; Awaken, Dominate Person, Dream, Geas, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Scrying, Seeming, Teleportation Circle, Commune,
6; Find the Path, Guards and Wards, Mass Suggestion, Programmed Illusion, True Seeing, Heroes Feast
7; Etherealness, Mirage Arcane, Project Image, Teleport, Plane Shift,
8; Dominate Monster, Glibness
9; Foresight, True Polymorph, Astral Projection

These don't have to be direct analogies, but by taking even only a few of the above spells, you are stepping on the rogues toes, and replicating what they can do. Now, yes, you can throw up "but butit's different because it's always on, or it's different because it isn't as good or only does in part".

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 06:59 PM

I think there are two parts to the question.

One is can the concept of a rogue/thief be EPIC.

Two is can the class be EPIC.......

Thanks so much for your detailed response, what you've written here is great stuff. Especially viewing rogues specifically through the context of D&D, which honestly I hadn't been doing so much. But you've listed some 'superhuman' or 'epic' things that seem to be really specific to rogue, which is exactly what I've been after!

I mean I had no idea about that rogue climbing speed, that's the sort of really 'cool' thing you just couldn't imagine a wizard, ranger or anybody else doing (well, except perhaps a monk).

I think your larger point is fine, since you seem to not be talking specifically about how 5th edition works mechanically and are looking at just general fiction. In 5th edition, sure invisibility can't mechanically recreate stealth but in terms of just using your imagination it's hard to divorce the idea that "you can't see me" doesn't make you really good at sneaking.

You're right I have definitely been sort of talking about things only through half a D&D lens. I don't want to cause confusion though, it's really only because I don't know all the D&D mechanics quite as well as I could to have a proper discussion about them, you know. I mean, exactly, as you put it, I really did think that ''you can't see me'' did make you really good at sneaking.

Why, um, isn't it like that? I genuinely don't know the mechanics regarding this.

We've never actually had anybody in our games cast invisibility yet, heck, we've only ever had one Wizard before, a Divination Wizard who loves out of combat utility spells (Identify, Detect Magic, Locate Object so and so).

JoeJ

2019-03-02, 07:15 PM

Mmm see I really like this, that's some epic thievery. Stealing from a goddess, and I love how all Wizards could trace their lineage directly back to that one action.

Yeah, one of the consequences is that magical research is all about rediscovering some of the spells that have been lost over time. Creating new spells isn't really possible.

Tanarii

2019-03-02, 07:27 PM

Go read some Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser short stories. They were one of the inspirations for D&D.

The Gray Mouser is somewhat akin to a 5e Swashbuckler*. He's a deadly agile & acrobatic warrior, along with other thief-y skills.

*probably variant human with Magic Initiate, or multiclass starting with one level of wizard, or both.

DissidentWizard

2019-03-02, 07:32 PM

ImproperJustice

2019-03-02, 07:33 PM

I take Umbrage that Captain Jack Sparrow doesn’t exist in a world with magic.

I mean there’s undead pirates, Davey Jones, the aforemention Kraken, and of course Calypso.....

Same with Alladin.

I remember in one of the Old Shanara books there was the assassin and the Druid who were at odds with one another.
The question was: could the Druid get a spell off his lips before the Assassin could be at his throat with a dagger.
I think his name was Pe Ell or something like that.
His stealth was so great that he could out stalk magically enhanced predators and was a legitimate threat to any enemy.
I think an epic Rogue is the same.
Mechaniclly they can be better than invisible, because their invisibility can’t be dispelled.
Their sneak attack is on par with 9th level spells and available at will, and their mobility is incredible.

We recently fought a battle with our Thief sniping from a roof. She could fire, break line of sight, and hide all in the same turn. When the enemy finally got some enemies on the roof after her, she climbed at full move speed around the side of the house and popped through a window, dashed to the other side and nailed another villain.
Then slowly murdered the guards inside the house before returning to her sniper perch. I don’t know if any enemy actually saw her during the battle.

sophontteks

2019-03-02, 07:48 PM

Woah thanks for the replies guys, I just had a nap :smallsigh: and woke up to a loads more replies! Sorry I wont be able to reply to everyone.

I think the issue I have with people citing people like, for example - Sam Gamgee, Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow, Bilbo Baggins, Aladdin, etc. Is that to me, I think it's their force of personality or the narrative they're thrust into that makes them the characters they are, rather than their 'rogueishness' - and you could essentially substitute in any other class and they'd still be as 'epic'.

When Sam kills Shelob, that's epic, sure, but that's some epic fighting.Jack Sparrow does some crazy things, but they're in a world (more or less) without wizards and magic and elder demons (in fact, Jack Sparrow staring down the Kraken was epic, but again, that's not 'roguey') - As Crucius wrote somewhere earlier 'Many roguish things are in the style of stealth or guile, a thing almost any other class/person could do just as well (magic users especially)'.

I did list several fantasy rogues from Game of thrones, King author, and lord of the rings. All of which did have these fantasy monsters. Aladdin fought a Genie/sorcerer. Jack Sparrow fought all manner of fantasy creatures. Bilbo fought a dragon. Bard killed a dragon. The clip from prince of persia showed the rogueish prince fighting an entire city garrison, which was something you mentioned that rogues can't do in the OP.

I think you may not know what a rogue is. You are mistaking them for thieves or something. I'm not sure. Rogues in cinema tend to mix martial arts with sword play. They are the people climbing up walls, doing flips, and slicing everything in their path.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 07:54 PM

Legend and notoriety arent a rogues forte anyway, if a rogue is well known it just makes his job harder. Subtlety is their skill, it's not as flashy but it sure is potent. Assassin's that can drop a dragon without being seen, a thief utilizing magic items far outside of anyones scope of possibility, an arcane trickster who thievery is so potent he can burgle your spells.

Oh yeah I definitely accept that staying hidden is pretty much their repertoire - but that doesn't mean that us as an outside observer doesn't know what they're doing, rather, the people in their world don't. So I don't think that 'being hidden' is necessarily contradictory to 'epicness'.

Annoying I haven't read any of the books you've mentioned. Apart from Lord of the Rings, and Arabian Nights and Gormenghast (which isn't really high fantasy at all), the amount of fantasy literature I've read is pitiful. Having said that, I'll definitely look up those characters now and try and get a low-down on them.

I take Umbrage that Captain Jack Sparrow doesn’t exist in a world with magic.

I mean there’s undead pirates, Davey Jones, the aforemention Kraken, and of course Calypso.....

Same with Alladin.

I remember in one of the Old Shanara books there was the assassin and the Druid who were at odds with one another.
The question was: could the Druid get a spell off his lips before the Assassin could be at his throat with a dagger.
I think his name was Pe Ell or something like that.
His stealth was so great that he could out stalk magically enhanced predators and was a legitimate threat to any enemy.
I think an epic Rogue is the same.
Mechaniclly they can be better than invisible, because their invisibility can’t be dispelled.
Their sneak attack is on par with 9th level spells and available at will, and their mobility is incredible.

We recently fought a battle with our Thief sniping from a roof. She could fire, break line of sight, and hide all in the same turn. When the enemy finally got some enemies on the roof after her, she climbed at full move speed around the side of the house and popped through a window, dashed to the other side and nailed another villain.
Then slowly murdered the guards inside the house before returning to her sniper perch. I don’t know if any enemy actually saw her during the battle.

Mmm, regarding magic in Pirates and Aladdin, I was going to write more on that at the time, but didn't want to write a wall of text - but you're definitely right, there's certainly magic in those. What I suppose I meant was rather, they're set in 'more or less' our world, rather than in a world like D&D where you'd have constant direct comparisons between party members, or other people around you - as if Jack Sparrow and Gandalf were on the same ship, competing for 'epicness'. What I meant was, I think it's easier for Jack Sparrow to shine without competition from great wizards, for example, or being pitted against a fiend from the lower hells, etc. etc. I hope that makes some sense! - (and of course, Jack does fight the undead, and to some extent a Kraken, but then so do the rest of the crews.)

Having said all of that, what you've written about the thief sniping on the roof does sound like some incredible (and epic!) gaming. That's exactly the sort of thing you could imagine happening in a movie where you'd think 'woah, that was cool'.

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 08:08 PM

I did list several fantasy rogues from Game of thrones, King author, and lord of the rings. All of which did have these fantasy monsters. Aladdin fought a Genie/sorcerer. Jack Sparrow fought all manner of fantasy creatures. Bilbo fought a dragon. Bard killed a dragon. The clip from prince of persia showed the rogueish prince fighting an entire city garrison, which was something you mentioned that rogues can't do in the OP.

I think you may not know what a rogue is. You are mistaking them for thieves or something. I'm not sure. Rogues in cinema tend to mix martial arts with sword play. They are the people climbing up walls, doing flips, and slicing everything in their path.

Yeah honestly apologies, it's hard to try and reply to everyone in detail without either writing a huge amount, or sound like I'm not taking anything into account!

Prince of Persia is actually a really good example of a pretty epic rogue.

The way I see it, as you've said, rogues can (clearly) do swordplay, and archery, and wit.. etc. etc. But those don't single out the rogue specifically. Bard awesomely killing the dragon wasn't 'rogueish' to me, rather it was a good shot, that any archer could have perhaps accomplished. I'd say the same with Bilbo, to some extent. He didn't really 'fight' a dragon, not in the same way one would imagine a great Warrior (perhaps) doing. He did sneak around it and steal the Arkenstone, which, hnmm, is impressive, and rogue-ey, but it's not epic is it? Not in the way that Gandalf rode out at the dawn at Helm's Deep, or even how Sam stabbed Shelob? I do find it hard to explain what I mean!

Regarding GoT and King Arthur - I honestly don't remember enough about them to comment with any detail.

So what you've said about me perhaps not knowing what rogue's are - I mean (well, obviously that could be true! I'd never know!), I believe I do, I'm just trying to focus on what makes them specifically a rogue, rather than a 'sneaky warrior' for example. So I'm purposely trying to avoid examples where they use their great swordplay, because to me, that doesn't seem 'rogue-ish' - clearly it's a part of their kit, but it's part of a lot of kits. I hope this makes sense.

That's why I liked your example of the Prince of Persia so much - he's a thief, he climbs up walls, does the backflips.. all these things that are pretty much specific to a rogue (with the exception of a monk, I guess).

sophontteks

2019-03-02, 08:20 PM

They went to great lengths to show how the shot bard made was exceptional. More then exceptional. Impossible. He shot a tiny weakspot on a moving dragon using a broken ballista. What more are you looking for here?

As for rogues. Exceptional swordplay and bowplay is one of their defining features. You may be mistaking rogueish, as in a personality vs. rogue, a d&d class. This is why they are one of the more iconic classes represented in media. Fighters lack the skills to do what rogues can, and rogues are the ones renowned for making ridiculous shots that can slay giants.

DissidentWizard

2019-03-02, 08:24 PM

Oh yeah I definitely accept that staying hidden is pretty much their repertoire - but that doesn't mean that us as an outside observer doesn't know what they're doing, rather, the people in their world don't. So I don't think that 'being hidden' is necessarily contradictory to 'epicness'.

You're absolutely right, and I get what you mean that most of their abilities could be performed by anyone else. The rogue simply has the honor of having access to a large number of abilities, not necessarily many that are strictly "rogue". In particular though I personally appreciate the sneak attack for what it stands for more than it's mechanical value. Thanks to hit points being gained by levels, battles can often seem odd, a demon with a flaming sword hits a human fighter, and he shrugs it off. In a game sense you could say that hit points are like luck points, and he doesn't actually get hit till he goes down to such a blow. In the world of magical beasts and wizards who can summon meteors it's great to know that the rogue exists to remind everyone that they're mortal. With nothing but a dagger he can kill you, all of your wards and spells mean nothing (or at least very little) to a knife that gets past them and to your throat. I'm not sure personally how to make rogues epic in the "oh my gosh I want to be a rogue because that was so cool" because to me it's always been how cool and subtle they are, using their wits to topple governments a la Palpatine, or an assassin's pot of tea to poison their mark. They're cool because they're the embodiment of "by any means necessary"

JoeJ

2019-03-02, 08:24 PM

They went to great lengths to show how the shot bard made was exceptional. More then exceptional. Impossible. He shot a tiny weakspot on a moving dragon using a broken ballista. What more are you looking for here?

To me, that seems more like epic fighter than epic rogue.

edit: that, and having paid attention in his thrush language class during jr. high.

djreynolds

2019-03-02, 08:26 PM

Benicio del Toro in the Hunted, that's a rogue.

Unoriginal

2019-03-02, 08:30 PM

I can also recommend the Conan stories "The Tower of the Elephant" and "Rogues in the House", both available freely and legally online

Uncumber

2019-03-02, 08:34 PM

Fighters lack the skills to do what rogues can, and rogues are the ones renowned for making ridiculous shots that can slay giants.

Regarding what you've said about Bard, I completely agree that it was 'epic' I just wouldn't have said it was rogueish, it was more, uh 'an epic feat of archery'. Rather than perhaps 'an epic feat of stealth, sleight of hand, agility, etc etc.'

However what I've quoted you saying here is something I hadn't put much thought into, that perhaps what separates rogues from others doing similar things is the 'skill/expertise' they have.

Argh, as I said I do find this hard to explain, what I've just said does seem a little blindingly obvious. I suppose I'm just looking at things in a different light.

DissidentWizard

2019-03-02, 08:56 PM

Here's an excerpt that showcases some of the more subtle practices of an experienced rogue. A wetboy was being requested for his services and the buyer wasn't impressed. The wetboy in question, Durzo Blint, decided to explain some of his practices:

"A properly staged suicide takes months...I gain access in one way or another and administer special concoctions. The deader becomes depressed, withdrawn, suspicious. Symptoms gradually worsen. Then maybe their favorite pet dies. The target is already peevish and paranoid, and soon he lashes out at his friends. The friends who visit - at least those who take refreshment - grow irritable while they are with the deader. They quarrel. They stop visiting. Sometimes the target writes the note himself. Sometimes he even commits the suicide himself, though I monitor that closely to make sure he chooses an appropriate method for the effect desired. When given proper time, no one suspects anything but self-murder. The family itself will often hush up the details, and scatter what little evidence there is...Possible? Yes. Difficult? Very. It takes a considerable number of carefully mixed poisons - do you know that everyone reacts differently to poisons? - and a huge amount of my time. If a forged note is required, the target's correspondence and journals are analyzed so that not only the handwriting, but also the writing style and even certain choices of wording are identical...Assassination is an art, milord, and I am the city's most accomplished artist."
The Way of Shadows, p. 145-146

The whole books shows the behind the scenes workings of assassination and burglary and at least to me was a very exciting read. Towards the end of the book when Durzo carried out a job he performs some very impressive acrobatics in order to administer poisons and remain unhidden in an otherwise crowded room. I won't spoil it but again, it shows some cool stuff that people can do without needing magic. As you said, skills and expertise are a rogues true power :)

sophontteks

2019-03-02, 09:48 PM

To me, that seems more like epic fighter than epic rogue.

edit: that, and having paid attention in his thrush language class during jr. high.
Rogues are known for their martial skill and fancy footwork. No one can hit harder then a rogue. If you ignore this major part of their kit, then they can't be epic (and no one would play them).

Edit. Sorry your not the OP. He's too skilled to be a fighter. Fighters have few skills and no expertise.

dps

2019-03-02, 09:53 PM

Just imagine someone cleaning out Fort Knox.

Jophiel

2019-03-02, 10:02 PM

They went to great lengths to show how the shot bard made was exceptional. More then exceptional. Impossible. He shot a tiny weakspot on a moving dragon using a broken ballista. What more are you looking for here?
To me, that seems more like epic fighter than epic rogue.
Impossible ranged shot sounds more archetypical ranger to me than rogue.

JoeJ

2019-03-02, 10:11 PM

Impossible ranged shot sounds more archetypical ranger to me than rogue.

Ranger or fighter I could see, either of them with archery fighting style. There's nothing about making a tough called shot with a longbow that seems roguish to me.

Arcangel4774

2019-03-02, 10:16 PM

The cliche of cutting a chandelere rope and flying into the air is textbook rogue. The thief is the king of interacting with the invironment. Imagine most jackie chan or pirates of the caribean movies.

rlc

2019-03-02, 10:49 PM

Hmmm ok that concept is something I can get behind, I think! Because then their 'stealing' could actually have a major and potentially immediate consequence. Rather than, 'the rogue stole this, which enabled the mighty warrior to do this, etc.' which would dilute the whole importance of it all.

Robin Hood is known for outsmarting the Sheriff, just as much as he's known for his bow skill.
There's also Eddie Guerrero, probably the greatest rogue-type character in pro wrestling history.

SkipSandwich

2019-03-03, 03:01 AM

Just imagine someone cleaning out Fort Knox.

You think too small, a true epic rogue would seek to follow in the footsteps of the great Carmen Sandiego and steal the fort itself!

JoeJ

2019-03-03, 03:16 AM

You think too small, a true epic rogue would seek to follow in the footsteps of the great Carmen Sandiego and steal the fort itself!

Or maybe steal the Great Pyramid of Giza and replace it with an inflatable replica? Or even the true crime of the century, stealing... the moon!

BurgerBeast

2019-03-03, 03:53 AM

It’s not hard for me to imagine rogues being epic.

Basically imagine a super fast, lightly armoured warrior who attacks with deadly precision. Imagine the typical batman scene, or a lower-tech version of Solid Snake, or a ninja. Or three musketeers or pirates of the Caribbean.

Epic rogues can infiltrate a war-camp and silently and stealthily kill tens or hundreds of people while dashing in and out of shadows. If they are spotted, they can take on multiple enemies at a time.

I personally think that the rogue tends to cover most movie-depictions of light-armoured warriors. Granted this has changed a little in 5e with the option to build a dex-based Fighter, but I still think of any warrior-type who is overly dex-based as a rogue rather than a fighter.

I consider Braveheart to be a Dex-Fighter, but Floki from Vikings I consider a rogue... Uhtred from Last Kingdom is probably a bit of both.

Edit: I think you’re a bit hung-up on the idea that a rogue’s epic-ness should cone from his rogue abilities and not from fighting.

I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s sort of the fighting that you look at for any example of epic-ness. It’s not the cleric’s healing that makes him epic. It’s not the Paladin’s mount, or evil-detection, or faith that makes him epic. It’s not the wizard’s teleports or comprehend languages that make him epic... it’s the fireballs/lightning bolts/meteor showers. It’s not the Ranger’s foraging or survival that make him epic - it’s his archery or combat spells. I think this applies across the board.

Kadesh

2019-03-03, 05:11 AM

Jophiel

2019-03-03, 05:21 AM

I think your issue is stemming from your belief that all Fighting is Fighter, rather being a Rogue.
I think it's more that "fighting" is fairly universal and not specifically roguish. Perhaps particular swashbuckling theatrics or kidney stabs from behind qualify but "Hits his mark with a bow" doesn't strike me as uniquely rogue.

Unoriginal

2019-03-03, 05:47 AM

Another epic rogue:

https://youtu.be/lQnle_3KuOE

I think your issue is stemming from your belief that all Fighting is Fighter, rather being a Rogue. Take a Barbarian for example. You take away the fighting aspects from Barbarian in the way you have from the Rogue, and it is also limited in its application of heroicness, despite Conan being one of the greatest examples.

People always forget Conan's Rogue traits, too.

MrStabby

2019-03-03, 06:47 AM

Ranger or fighter I could see, either of them with archery fighting style. There's nothing about making a tough called shot with a longbow that seems roguish to me.

I think it's more that "fighting" is fairly universal and not specifically roguish. Perhaps particular swashbuckling theatrics or kidney stabs from behind qualify but "Hits his mark with a bow" doesn't strike me as uniquely rogue.

This is pretty much half of their capstone. They can automatically make any shot. In the context of 5th edition (where this is posted) it is explicitly roguish.

JackPhoenix

2019-03-03, 07:45 AM

People always forget Conan's Rogue traits, too.

But he's not a rogue! He's barbarian, it's in the name! Despite fighter/thief multiclass with riddiculous ability scores would fit him better than a barbarian.

Unoriginal

2019-03-03, 07:57 AM

But he's not a rogue! He's barbarian, it's in the name! Despite fighter/thief multiclass with riddiculous ability scores would fit him better than a barbarian.

Yes, Fighter/Rogue would represent Conan pretty well. He always wore the most protective armor he could get his hands on, was stealthy, cunning, and skilled in many domains. "Tower of the Elephant" could be renamed "Conan takes his first level in Rogue".

Skylivedk

2019-03-03, 08:21 AM

Run a tightrope, backflip down from it, catch another rope, swing and slice a neck before executing a perfect rolling jump behind the nearest boulder, pull a wand and blast the mooks about to swarm you to pieces.

- how is that not epic?

My all time favourite character was an Arcane Trickster in Pathfinder. He pulled off unbelievable stuff all the time (which was good for him; meant that he got away with all of it).

Great Dragon

2019-03-03, 09:06 AM

yeah, this has pretty been exactly my train of thought! Especially ''almost any other class/person could do just as well (magic users especially)''

This was the focus of my Thieves' Tools Thread, which seems to have died.

Sure, it's nice that in 5e the other Classes have access to these so that there is still a chance to Pick that Lock (Disabling a Trap, too - but that depends on the GM as to how often this happens) when there is no Rogue available.
Which was not possible in 3x without Multiclassing.
But when the chances are Even-Odds for any other class to do the same (with Expertise only making it slightly easier at Low Levels) just makes me Sad.
Rogues are supposed to be more than the Sneak-y Attack Class. (Pun!:haley:)

I have been shown that other Subclasses can shine, because they can do those Rogue-y things a little better: the Basic Rogue gets Tools for free, so effectively get an extra skill
- and faster: a Thief {The Grey Mouser of Greyhawk legend} using a Bonus Action to Open Lock;
an Inquisitive {Sherlock Holmes} using Investigate to find Traps on the Secret Door as a Bonus Action, etc. But then you're getting into Class/Subclass Optimization, and not just the Classic Rogue.

But, to me it means that it's a LOT harder for the Rogue to really Stand Out or be Epic.
I mean an Urchin Diviner Wizard with Thieves Tools can get into and steal the McGuffin easier then the Rogue!
(Except maybe an Arcane Trickster that put Expertise into Stealth, Perception, Investigate and Thieves' Tools, I guess)

For people that are visualizing things as the game plays out, seeing the Rogue (unless everyone is ok with them going Solo a lot) becomes Very Hard to Do. Especially when it's easy to imagine most other Classes being Epic (Fighter, Monk - heck even Bard, these days) - and Spellcasters casting Epic-Powered Spells and still being able to match the non-optimized Rogue!

And don't even get me started on Conan! He's the thought-child of someone that wanted to be able to do the - Kill Things Good and still do Lots of Stuff - Character.
He's not Balanced even outside of Game Mechanics, much less in.
Heck, lots of the old Conan comics were all about how someone was Really Good at something, but Conan could do that as well (at least as good, if not better) - or at most spend a comic learning how to do that - and still out-match all but the Most Legendary Fighters!

Jophiel

2019-03-03, 09:56 AM

This is pretty much half of their capstone. They can automatically make any shot. In the context of 5th edition (where this is posted) it is explicitly roguish.
I assume we're not implying that Bard was a level 20 rogue? He was some other lower level (of whatever class) and, "in the context of 5th edition", would have landed his shot the old fashioned way: via +to hit modifiers and luck?

BurgerBeast

2019-03-03, 11:19 AM

This was the focus of my Thieves' Tools Thread, which seems to have died.

Sure, it's nice that in 5e the other Classes have access to these so that there is still a chance to Pick that Lock (Disabling a Trap, too - but that depends on the GM as to how often this happens) when there is no Rogue available.
Which was not possible in 3x without Multiclassing.
But when the chances are Even-Odds for any other class to do the same (with Expertise only making it slightly easier at Low Levels) just makes me Sad.

Yes, but as was said, you’re missing the fact that this was done to others, as well. The fighter is not the clear winner at fighting, any more. Attack bonuses are equal across all classes, hit points go to the barbarian, hardest hits to Paladins and assassins (or whatever). From what I hear EK wins the AC race, but that’s a subclass. Fighters don’t necessarily win the AC race.

Niches were lost. You might even argue that wizards lost their role as the true arcane masters, in a sense, when they decided to make meta-magic the sorcerer’s gig.

Bards are essentially re-invented as full casters. The old bard is no more.

So, while I understand your complaint, I’m not sure why you’re focusing on rogues.

As an aside, the design choice to equalize hit bonuses and ACs was balanced by inequalities in Damage and Hit Point numbers. It has always struck me, at least in principle, that the designers could have used a similar means to differentiate the skill side of the game. Some mechanical progress meter, where appropriate, would allow the skilled characters to be differentiated on this metric.

Shuruke

2019-03-03, 11:42 AM

This was specifically an A.T

But in a campaign I am in the druid and a npc were parlaying with enemy group of 200 soldiers that showed up to take the town

During the talk my character inevitable knew was gonna be a fight he used his alchemist fire stache of 15 flasks and his 20 oil flasks to sleight of hand them onto peoples belts

The oil containers had small leaks and the Alchemist fire the dm let me put small fuses on

I used alter self and disguised myself as a gaurd and when my campanions were walking out after failed parlay I walked by them and whispered for them to run.

Their food supplies
Their weapons
And a good amount of the soldiers went up into flames

Although it only led to a few fatalities they lpst alot of their goods and since it was winter and their camp destroyed a few hours later when the skirmish started they were already pretty demoralized.

This was at level 11 or 12 I think but still.
Im sure a thief could've rigged areas to catch fore and do an aladin chase scene
An assassin could've used fire as distraction to assassinate to few key individuals

A swashbuckler could have fueled a few people and made a show in the chaos

Mastermind could've lied better than druid XD or found some other way of intrigue or etc

Scout could just set up a good ambush at that scenario and have it be the druid starting to leave as strike group hits key points in camp

I've had a few other great scenarios as well that's just one of my favorite
(1-20 campaign at 18 currently and absolutely love my rogue.)

Just look at things from movies

Road to Eldorado
Aladin
Italian job
I used overlord for this A.T (believe it was succulent?) But the idea of illusionary arm swinging while invisible one strikes was kinda idea for this character that mixed with Loki from marvel comics

U could also look at characters like Mai from last airbender and reflavor your sneak attack d6 as a knife barrage

Rogues are good with getting away with things or doing things on a consistent level. It isnt a amount of times per rest for them. Their just always that good.

Mage can go invisible or pass without trace to get past guards

The thief goes rooftop and pulls kungfu movie trope of going from roof to ropf stealthily

The assassin and mastermind sneak in with disguises or talk their way in then disappear to do their plan or get their target.

A.T uses a sound from distance or a illusion of someone stealing then running off to slip by distracted guards

Theirs alot more than slink and walk by guards in shadow and even if they do just walk by guards in shadow they can do that to most gaurds whereas eventually the spell ends for invisibility or pass without trace.

MrStabby

2019-03-03, 01:31 PM

I assume we're not implying that Bard was a level 20 rogue? He was some other lower level (of whatever class) and, "in the context of 5th edition", would have landed his shot the old fashioned way: via +to hit modifiers and luck?

Why not? Was he firing more than 1 shot per round suggesting a second attack? Was he demonstrating a class ability of a different class? Rogues can be effective martial characters and I could get on board with Bard being one. As for level 20? Yeah, seems about the right level to be facing off against an ancient red Dragon.

Tvtyrant

2019-03-03, 01:46 PM

Epic Rogues are essentially about doing things that are impossible and are essentially fluff.

Hiding in your own shadow, literally stealing a kiss, evading fall damage.

Montesquieu P.

2019-03-03, 02:10 PM

Considerably more "old school" (and almost unknown today), are several movies starring Burt Lancaster. See :wikipedia's cite to 'The_Flame_and_the_Arrow' (link deliberately secured and not enabled); see also "The Crimson Pirate" (who d'you think inspired Captain Jack Sparrow's creator?) and for the athletics -- but not really 'rogue-ery' "Trapeze".

Kudos to those mentioning Raffles, The Pink Panther, Bilbo Baggins (who stalls the trolls? Not Gandalf!) -- but you left out Fritz Leiber's Grey Mouser. One of the specific inspirations behind the original "Thief" class in the famous "4th book", i.e. Greyhawk.

Happy watching/reading these classics!

Jophiel

2019-03-03, 02:16 PM

Rogues can be effective martial characters and I could get on board with Bard being one. As for level 20? Yeah, seems about the right level to be facing off against an ancient red Dragon.
Well, we have a pretty large impasse there if you honestly think Bard was a level 20 rogue so I'm happy to let it sit with that.

MrStabby

2019-03-03, 02:21 PM

Well, we have a pretty large impasse there if you honestly think Bard was a level 20 rogue so I'm happy to let it sit with that.

Was? Well obviously not as the Hobbit wasn't written with 5th edition d&d in mind.

But which class best captures that single perfectly placed arrow that slays a monster and ends a battle? Making that one special black arrow count?To me it says rogue.

CorporateSlave

2019-03-03, 03:06 PM

Oh yeah I definitely understand that, but argh, it's hard to explain, I just find it pretty hard to imagine what these 'unseen things' would be that would be, well, legendary.

How about the Arcane Trickster who uses Greater Invisibility to single handedly take out the besieging army's generals and cause the army's surrender? While they may be unseen during the act itself, the tale of the lone hero who defeated the invading army would be legendary?

sophontteks

2019-03-03, 03:22 PM

Well, we have a pretty large impasse there if you honestly think Bard was a level 20 rogue so I'm happy to let it sit with that.
IF you were to create bard in 5e how would you go about it?

First, the arrow. There is only one class in the game that can represent hitting a dragon's weakspot for exceptional damage well beyond what a weapon is capable of. That's a rogue.

He's a smuggler. He relies on many skills, and he's very good at them. Exceptional persuasion checks, perception checks, insight checks, deception checks, survival checks, and stealth checks are all a part of his kit. It'd be pretty tough for a fighter to pull any of this off with their 4 skill profeciencies and 0 expertise.

What was this strange signaling the people were using to communicate where Bard was going? Some strange language only known by thieves? Bard seems to have no trouble recognizing it. He probably knows thieves can't then, and he has enough perception to notice it.

There isn't really any thing in the fighter's kit that is helping us to make this character. Nothing we are missing that the rogue doesn't already cover.

I think it's more that "fighting" is fairly universal and not specifically roguish. Perhaps particular swashbuckling theatrics or kidney stabs from behind qualify but "Hits his mark with a bow" doesn't strike me as uniquely rogue.

This is a pretty big problem. Everything in the OP was about fighting. If its universal, then everything the OP mentioned as being "epic" must be disregarded. So, then, how are fighters and barbarians epic? How is anyone epic if we are describing epic as showing exceptional fighting skill while scoffing at all the many examples of rogues showing exceptional fighting skill?

Yes, if we ignore the fact that rogues are exceptional martial characters, then they wouldn't be very epic in combat. It just that this is kind of ridiculous, because they are exceptional martial characters.

No brains

2019-03-03, 03:31 PM

Could a D&D rogue do the 'epic' maneuver of teleporting behind someone and saying "Nothing personal, kid"?

Knaight

2019-03-03, 03:34 PM

It looks like you're looking for cinematic more than anything - which suggests watching some cinema. Basically every protagonist in heist fiction fits within the broad rogue archetype, and this can involve some pretty ridiculous stuff. Watch some Leverage, where in a rough 5e sense you could say that every character has expertise in a different roguey skill. The hacker doesn't necessarily transfer well, but the thief-acrobat and the con artists? Those characters work just fine.

On a literary perspective, there's a few more examples: Cugel the Clever is the big one. The character is a terrible person, but they're also a classic guile hero that was absolutely involved in the conception of D&D. They outsneak, outsmart, outact, and just generally outmanuever all sorts of heavy opposition pretty routinely. The somewhat smaller one is just about every protagonist in The Lies of Locke Lamora.

Then there's Sun Wukong. Sure, he's also an excellent warrior, and his first instinct is to hit something with his stick. When that either doesn't work or isn't viable, though? Out comes the trickster, and it's tricky indeed.

langal

2019-03-03, 03:41 PM

Was? Well obviously not as the Hobbit wasn't written with 5th edition d&d in mind.

True. If LOTR was based on 5e rules, all the warriors would be 8 strength weaklings with rapiers.

Great Dragon

2019-03-03, 04:19 PM

Yes, but as was said, you’re missing the fact that this was done to others, as well. The fighter is not the clear winner at fighting, any more. Attack bonuses are equal across all classes, hit points go to the barbarian, hardest hits to Paladins and assassins (or whatever). From what I hear EK wins the AC race, but that’s a subclass. Fighters don’t necessarily win the AC race.

Niches were lost. You might even argue that wizards lost their role as the true arcane masters, in a sense, when they decided to make meta-magic the sorcerer’s gig.

Bards are essentially re-invented as full casters. The old bard is no more.

So, while I understand your complaint, I’m not sure why you’re focusing on rogues.

As an aside, the design choice to equalize hit bonuses and ACs was balanced by inequalities in Damage and Hit Point numbers. It has always struck me, at least in principle, that the designers could have used a similar means to differentiate the skill side of the game. Some mechanical progress meter, where appropriate, would allow the skilled characters to be differentiated on this metric.

I kinda have the same feelings towards Everyone having the same bonus To Hit, Saves, etc.

I can accept the 5e Wizard being able to hit as good as a Warrior with thier staff, because that - and only a few other weapons - are all they get.
But, then if the Wiz is in melee, he's not going to last very long....
Even Mage Armor and Shield only give AC 18 + Dex (23 max without Magic Books) for 1 Round. Those Spell Slots go fast!

But I focused on Rogues because I've always seen them as the "Get in where no one is allowed" class. Yes, it's a niche, mostly due to playing too many years of AD&D and 3x. I'll adapt.

Sure, the spellcasters could duplicate some of the Rogue ability with spells, but as pointed out, the Player has to worry about either breaking Concentration or the Duration ending at a bad time.

Mordaedil

2019-03-04, 02:53 AM

I see a lot of references to reading material with a lot of normal dudes doing stuff referred to as epic, but I think the source is a bit uninspired.

In another game where I was playing 3.5 with a level 24 rogue, I could pull off the following: Hold off professionally trained guards with a wooden sword and disarm them, torture them by claiming I didn't know what I was doing causing them to lose consciousness, jump to the top of a pillar and hide myself in the shadows on top of a ceiling, realizing my mistake leap back down grapple a witness gag them and leap back up, realizing we needed a distraction jumped back down with the witness still grappled call out to the guards that they can't catch me and dash down a hall way before leaping up on top of a doorway and hide myself as the guards would run past, then run back with noone following me.

An epic rogue is basically a ninja.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 12:18 PM

Regarding what you've said about Bard, I completely agree that it was 'epic' I just wouldn't have said it was rogueish, it was more, uh 'an epic feat of archery'. Rather than perhaps 'an epic feat of stealth, sleight of hand, agility, etc etc.'

However what I've quoted you saying here is something I hadn't put much thought into, that perhaps what separates rogues from others doing similar things is the 'skill/expertise' they have.

Argh, as I said I do find this hard to explain, what I've just said does seem a little blindingly obvious. I suppose I'm just looking at things in a different light.

I get your point. Anyone can be silent. Anyone can "tiptoe" or wear some kind of magically enchanted silent boots. Pickpocketing/planting something is something anyone can physically do.

So how is a level 17 Rogue's ability check as valuable as a Wizard's Wish? Or anything a Wizard can do? A Wizard can cast Knock and Detect Traps pretty much as often as they want at that level, so why bring the Rogue as anything more than a glorified sniper?

Rather than making spells worse, though, we should be making skills better. Like, much, MUCH better. I did a little bit of work to see what seems like it'd fit, and I figured this was pretty accurate:

DC 14 = Spell level 1
DC 16 = Spell level 2
DC 18 = Spell level 3
DC 20 = Spell level 4
DC 22 = Spell level 5
DC 24 = Spell level 6
DC 26 = Spell level 7
DC 28 = Spell level 8
DC 30 = Spell level 9

That is to say, a Rogue who can hit a DC 25 should expect a similar outcome as if a Wizard spend a level 6 spell slot. Otherwise, late-game, there's not many reasons I'd see a Rogue as being anything more than a Wizard's lackey.

NecroDancer

2019-03-04, 12:32 PM

An epic rogue is never really seen. For example: an evil tyrant rules the land with an iron grip. He has slaughtered all who try to oppose him, he seems to be invincible to the common folk.

Until one day, in the middle of courtyard the people see something that they never would have expected. They see the corpse of the tyrant, with his neck slit, and corpse hung from tree. Nobody knows who killed this monster, nobody knows how it happened, but the tyrant is dead.

This is what an epic rogue does. No matter the traps or defenses an epic rogue can slip through them all. Every shadow becomes a lurking blade, no treasure is safe. You will never see an epic rogue but their actions are felt with every impossible heist they pull off and every god-king they assassinate.

Unoriginal

2019-03-04, 01:05 PM

Otherwise, late-game, there's not many reasons I'd see a Rogue as being anything more than a Wizard's lackey.

Thank you, I didn't have any reason to want to gouge out parts of my brains with a rusty harpoon today, before reading this.

MThurston

2019-03-04, 01:11 PM

James Bond is a rogue.

Drops mic and walks away.

Uncumber

2019-03-04, 01:13 PM

Thank you, I didn't have any reason to want to gouge out parts of my brains with a rusty harpoon today, before reading this.

Woah keep it nice guys! It's only different people's opinions, over something pretty unimportant at the end of the day! - Unoriginal, I asked you way back in the thread about the mechanics of Wizards being 'stealthy' and how they might not be as good as I was imagining. (on page 2 of this thread).

As I'm fairly new to D&D, I'm the first one to say I'm not completely up with all of the rules. So that being said, how is it that a Wizard casting invisibility on themselves (for example) is not 'really stealthy'?

Or, as Kadesh put it (a few posts after mine, earlier in the thread, also on page 2) - why can't a Wizard be 'just as stealthy' using a number of Wizard spells? Kadesh listed a pretty large number of spells that, in their opinion, tread on the toes of a rogue.

I'd be genuinely interested in what way you don't believe this to be the case? I'm really not trying to 'argue' - rather just understand better, as as I said above, I'm hardly an experienced player.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 01:15 PM

Thank you, I didn't have any reason to want to gouge out parts of my brains with a rusty harpoon today, before reading this.

You're welcome!

I find that exaggerating how bad things are inspires people to tell me I'm wrong. Otherwise people will tend to go "Eh, seems reasonable" and provide nothing, which I consider worse. If you have some ideas as to why I'm wrong, I'd love to hear them.

Unoriginal

2019-03-04, 01:32 PM

Woah keep it nice guys! It's only different people's opinions, over something pretty unimportant at the end of the day! - Unoriginal, I asked you way back in the thread about the mechanics of Wizards being 'stealthy' and how they might not be as good as I was imagining. (on page 2 of this thread).

As I'm fairly new to D&D, I'm the first one to say I'm not completely up with all of the rules. So that being said, how is it that a Wizard casting invisibility on themselves (for example) is not 'really stealthy'?

Or, as Kadesh put it (a few posts after mine, earlier in the thread, also on page 2) - why can't a Wizard be 'just as stealthy' using a number of Wizard spells? Kadesh listed a pretty large number of spells that, in their opinion, tread on the toes of a rogue.

I'd be genuinely interested in what way you don't believe this to be the case? I'm really not trying to 'argue' - rather just understand better, as as I said above, I'm hardly an experienced player.

First of all, Invisibility does not make you better at being stealthy. It lets you attempt to hide anywhere (since you need to not be clearly seen to be able to try and hide), but it provides no Advantage nor proficiency in the Stealth skill.

So, your typical Wizard would have to attempt to be stealthy using only their DEX mod. Which for obvious reasons is likely to be inferior to your typical Rogue's. And if they both try to specialize in stealth, then the Rogue's specialization will be far superior (notably, but not only, thanks to Expertise).

Now, if you want, I could make a detailed breakdown of Kadesh's list of spells. Would that interest you?

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 01:38 PM

Now, if you want, I could make a detailed breakdown of Kadesh's list of spells. Would that interest you?

Sure. Off you pop.

Uncumber

2019-03-04, 01:39 PM

First of all, Invisibility does not make you better at being stealthy. It lets you attempt to hide anywhere (since you need to not be clearly seen to be able to try and hide), but it provides no Advantage nor proficiency in the Stealth skill.

So, your typical Wizard would have to attempt to be stealthy using only their DEX mod. Which for obvious reasons is likely to be inferior to your typical Rogue's. And if they both try to specialize in stealth, then the Rogue's specialization will be far superior (notably, but not only, thanks to Expertise).

Now, if you want, I could make a detailed breakdown of Kadesh's list of spells. Would that interest you?

Hmm, ok that does surprise me a little! I mean, thank you for the info! But from what I understand from that, then an invisible character is actually more likely to be noticed than even a fairly average rogue, proficient in stealth? Don't get me wrong, I completely believe what you're saying, but that does seem a little weird doesn't it!? I mean, invisible things are hard to notice!

And no, no of course I wouldn't expect a detailed breakdown. But like I said above, I suppose it just surprises me that a Wizard can't use its (pretty large) toolbox to end up pretty darn stealthy. But, you know, I can completely accept I'm wrong about it!

KiltieMacPipes

2019-03-04, 01:41 PM

https://realityistheheart.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/captain_jack.jpg?w=314&h=458

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 01:43 PM

Hmm, ok that does surprise me a little! I mean, thank you for the info! But from what I understand from that, then an invisible character is actually more likely to be noticed than even a fairly average rogue, proficient in stealth? Don't get me wrong, I completely believe what you're saying, but that does seem a little weird doesn't it!? I mean, invisible things are hard to notice!

And no, no of course I wouldn't expect a detailed breakdown. But like I said above, I suppose it just surprises me that a Wizard can't use its (pretty large) toolbox to end up pretty darn stealthy. But, you know, I can completely accept I'm wrong about it!

Can hide in line of sight, and can't be targeted by effects the require you to target things you can see. Doesn't have stealth broken by not being in cover.

No use the rogue being cover if the rest of the party isn't.

Uncumber

2019-03-04, 01:45 PM

Can hide in line of sight, and can't be targeted by effects the require you to target things you can see. Doesn't have stealth broken by not being in cover.

No use the rogue being cover if the rest of the party isn't.

Aaah that explains it all a little more, in all honesty I really should look up these particular rules more. They just haven't happened to have come up yet in any of our games. Thanks for the info though!

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 01:49 PM

First of all, Invisibility does not make you better at being stealthy. It lets you attempt to hide anywhere (since you need to not be clearly seen to be able to try and hide), but it provides no Advantage nor proficiency in the Stealth skill.

It *kinda* does. While it doesn't say it explicitly, Heavily Obscured areas likely have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks, or a -5 on Passive Perception.

This is based on these assumptions:

Heavily Obscured > Lightly Obscured

Lightly Obscured rules: "[in] a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Additionally, Passive Perception states: "Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check. If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5."

Unless the creatures have a reason to look for an invisible person, I'd say that they'd have Disadvantage to look for you. Sound is always going to play a part, but if blindness was already circumvented by simply listening for the source, we wouldn't have Rogues using shadows or even bothering to break line of sight to hide. Vision MUST matter for the sake of hiding, and if it does, then being Obscured grants you a bonus to hiding. If it doesn't, then the entire stealth system is broken because humanoids have ears.

Unoriginal

2019-03-04, 02:02 PM

It *kinda* does. While it doesn't say it explicitly, Heavily Obscured areas likely have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks, or a -5 on Passive Perception.

This is based on these assumptions:

Heavily Obscured > Lightly Obscured

Lightly Obscured rules: "[in] a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Additionally, Passive Perception states: "Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check. If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5."

Unless the creatures have a reason to look for an invisible person, I'd say that they'd have Disadvantage to look for you. Sound is always going to play a part, but if blindness was already circumvented by simply listening for the source, we wouldn't have Rogues using shadows or even bothering to break line of sight to hide. Vision MUST matter for the sake of hiding, and if it does, then being Obscured grants you a bonus to hiding. If it doesn't, then the entire stealth system is broken because humanoids have ears.

Being invisible does NOT give you an advantage. However, it'd make people auto-fail all tests that solely rely on vision (the same way that the Blinded condition does not give you a disadvantage on WIS (Perception) but makes you auto-fail tasks that are only vision-related).

And no, the stealth system is not broken. Having ears is what allows humanoids to *try* to detect invisible beings, among other signs of one's presence that are still detectable (ex: foot prints in the muddy soil, etc).

If someone is under Invisibilty + under a Silence effect + on a ground that doesn't make them leave tracks, they're pretty much impossible to detect by humanoids who doesn't have other developed senses. Otherwise, the DEX (Stealth) check is needed to try to avoid detection.

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 02:06 PM

Being invisible does NOT give you an advantage. However, it'd make people auto-fail all tests that solely rely on vision (the same way that the Blinded condition does not give you a disadvantage on WIS (Perception) but makes you auto-fail tasks that are only vision-related).

And no, the stealth system is not broken. Having ears is what allows humanoids to *try* to detect invisible beings, among other signs of one's presence that are still detectable (ex: foot prints in the muddy soil, etc).

If someone is under Invisibilty + under a Silence effect + on a ground that doesn't make them leave tracks, they're pretty much impossible to detect by humanoids who doesn't have other developed senses. Otherwise, the DEX (Stealth) check is needed to try to avoid detection.
So Pass Without Trace and Invisibility from a Druid is not capable of replicating a Rogue?

Uncumber

2019-03-04, 02:13 PM

If someone is under Invisibilty + under a Silence effect + on a ground that doesn't make them leave tracks, they're pretty much impossible to detect by humanoids who doesn't have other developed senses. Otherwise, the DEX (Stealth) check is needed to try to avoid detection.

Argh this is confusing me a little then. I was under the impression that you were saying Wizards (or spellcasters) don't 'tread on the toes' of rogues. But from what I've quoted you saying here, it seems a spellcaster could indeed be really, really sneaky. Am I missing something? =S

Unoriginal

2019-03-04, 02:14 PM

So Pass Without Trace and Invisibility from a Druid is not capable of replicating a Rogue?

Both are Concentration spells. So no, both of those spells from one Druid are incapable of replication a Rogue.

Now, if you meant that it takes two casters using some of their daily ressources to replicate what a Rogue does, it'd be true.

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 02:15 PM

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 02:21 PM

Argh this is confusing me a little then. I was under the impression that you were saying Wizards (or spellcasters) don't 'tread on the toes' of rogues. But from what I've quoted you saying here, it seems a spellcaster could indeed be really, really sneaky. Am I missing something? =S

I think the overall answer is that spellcasters are strictly better when allowed to spend their resources to do so. If two casters can afford to Concentrate on Pass Without Trace and Invisibility on a single creature, then that single creature would pretty much be better than any Rogue, which is a shame, because those are both level 2 spells (available at character level 3).

Given availability, casters can solve pretty much any problem with magic. It's our job as DMs to create too many scenarios for the casters to solve that way. This becomes a problem when a level 15 Wizard can cast a level 2 spell 17 times in a day.

If the players wanted to upgrade to a high level stealth scenario, Greater Invisibility (allows the creature to attack and do anything while staying invisible) is a level 4 spell, usable 11 times by a level 15 Wizard.

This is why I made the claim that Rogues are a smart Wizard's lackey. A Rogue's skillset only is applicable when a Wizard chooses to do nothing.

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 02:53 PM

I think the overall answer is that spellcasters are strictly better when allowed to spend their resources to do so. If two casters can afford to Concentrate on Pass Without Trace and Invisibility on a single creature, then that single creature would pretty much be better than any Rogue, which is a shame, because those are both level 2 spells (available at character level 3).

Well first of all stealth isn't all the rogue brings to the table it's just one of many things they can do well. Second of all, the fact that casters have to spend two 2nd level slots to mimic their natural ability is a point in favor of rogues. Even with two concentration spells used, my money would be on a rogue still being the more stealthy one should they wish to be so.

Given availability, casters can solve pretty much any problem with magic. It's our job as DMs to create too many scenarios for the casters to solve that way. This becomes a problem when a level 15 Wizard can cast a level 2 spell 17 times in a day.

If the players wanted to upgrade to a high level stealth scenario, Greater Invisibility (allows the creature to attack and do anything while staying invisible) is a level 4 spell, usable 11 times by a level 15 Wizard.

This is why I made the claim that Rogues are a smart Wizard's lackey. A Rogue's skillset only is applicable when a Wizard chooses to do nothing.

As a level 20 caster in a 3.5 year long weekly game I could not disagree more. Magic is awesome but people either vastly overestimate the efficacy of spells or their DMs are some lenient mofos if this is a commonly held opinion.

Uncumber

2019-03-04, 02:54 PM

I think the overall answer is that spellcasters are strictly better when allowed to spend their resources to do so. If two casters can afford to Concentrate on Pass Without Trace and Invisibility on a single creature, then that single creature would pretty much be better than any Rogue, which is a shame, because those are both level 2 spells (available at character level 3).

Given availability, casters can solve pretty much any problem with magic. It's our job as DMs to create too many scenarios for the casters to solve that way. This becomes a problem when a level 15 Wizard can cast a level 2 spell 17 times in a day.

If the players wanted to upgrade to a high level stealth scenario, Greater Invisibility (allows the creature to attack and do anything while staying invisible) is a level 4 spell, usable 11 times by a level 15 Wizard.

This is why I made the claim that Rogues are a smart Wizard's lackey. A Rogue's skillset only is applicable when a Wizard chooses to do nothing.

Thank you for your detailed explanation! What you've said does make sense (and you're right, it's kind of annoying for rogues it seems), although, I suppose one thing going for Rogues is that they don't need to prepare, and that they're always capable of doing these 'epic things' - regardless of whether the group has been surprised, or hasn't rested for a week, or whatever whatever.

Also, it would be sort of cheesy for a wizard to think 'hmm, I think this will be a stealth mission, so I'm going to use Greater Invisibility 11 times'. I mean, as you've said it's possible, but I reckon that's the sort of thing a DM could get pretty peeved over. And, as you put ''It's our job as DMs to create too many scenarios for the casters to solve that way.'' - I think that's a pretty accurate statement. It appears from this conversation that some characters may have trouble 'shining' in comparison to a particularly good (or particularly creative) Wizard, but surely that is under the DMs jurisdiction, and a rogue could shine just as brightly - just given the right circumstances, as many people have given a hundred great examples of in this thread.

Once again thanks for that response though, it's sort of cleared the mist a little bit in my head trying to think about this all.

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 02:56 PM

MThurston

2019-03-04, 02:56 PM

James Bond
Captain Jack Sparrow
Indigo Montoya
All 4 Musketeers
John Carter
The Grey Mouser
Vlad Taltos
Ticker Longtoe
Balgoran Caldinary

JoeJ

2019-03-04, 03:01 PM

Stealing Green Lantern's ring (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOcC1y-9aeU), while he's wearing it, seems pretty epic to me.

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 03:01 PM

Your money is a Rogue being more stealthy, because they have a lower check than Pass Without Trace? Your money is on a Rogue being more stealthy than a creature that literally cannot be seen?

This site, at times.

Pass w/out a trace is a +10. Assuming dex of 14 and no prof then a 9th level caster has a +12. A 9th level thief rogue can have an effective +18. An arcane trickster could have a +13 and also be invisible. A 9th level assassin could have unerringly adopted another's persona.

Yes, my money is on the rogue

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 03:04 PM

Wait, I thought we were comparing level 3 abilities, when your +10 for the entire party was up against a rogue's sole +8.

Your point?

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 03:09 PM

Wait, I thought we were comparing level 3 abilities, when your +10 for the entire party was up against a rogue's sole +8.

Your point?

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you actually thought expending half of a presumably two caster party's highest level slots to slightly exceed what a rogue could do naturally was actually a point in favor of the casters...

JoeJ

2019-03-04, 03:12 PM

Wasn't there also in scene in The Gamers where the thief steals a bar patron's pants without the target noticing?

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 03:16 PM

'muh, it takes all of your resources'. And if you think that if the party has one of their players unable to contribute after they have helped the party bypass an encounter that the rogue did nothing to help with except hide themselves, you are going to be very mistaken.

And as the caster gets better, it gets more Spellslots and spells known, making the sunk cost even shallower.

MoiMagnus

2019-03-04, 03:19 PM

Hey everyone,

So basically, I completely admit that this is due to a thorough lack of imagination on my behalf - but I just find it really hard to envisage how a classic Rogue character can be, well, 'epic', in the same way I imagine other classes.

Let me try and explain,

When I say 'epic', I mean, for example, that you can picture a scene of them doing something 'awesome' - Gandalf vs. the Balrog. A lone warrior fighting off a horde of gibbering monstrosities. A monk kung-fu-ing on top of a misty mountaintop. A barbarian strangling a dragon. I don't know. When I think of lots of classes, I can conjure up a million of these images.. you know, something that would make an amazing work of art or an awe inspiring movie scene. But with a classic rogue (stealth, thievery, cunning, backstabbing)... I just can't see it.

Sneaking isn't very.. epic? How about stealing something? Sure, I guess assassination is 'cool', but that's not really on the same scale is it?

As I've said, I'm sure this is due to lack of imagination on my part. Maybe it's because I've never played games such as Thief or Dishonored to trigger any inspiration, I'm not sure. But just in D&D, a world with Dragons, ancient eldritch abominations and underworld fiends - I find it hard to place the rogue class in the same league as other classes, thematically I mean, not mechanically.

And please don't get me wrong, I love rogues to pieces. It's just in comparison to other classes, looking at them under the filter of 'heroic, epic, legendary (etc. etc.)' that I find them really hard to view that positively!

Hope you guys understand what I'm getting at, and somebody can convince me otherwise!

Thanks for reading!

My favorite example of epic rogue: James Bond. Batman come close second (though you could also consider him as a shadow monk).
A more "standard rogue" example: Arsène Lupin.
In fact, I think a lot of film's heros are epic rogues (remember, the lv20 power of rogues is literally "luck").

In a more D&D world, a guy stealing god's relics every other days is a good example. Most legendary kings that got out of nowhere and became kings (or king's advisor) trough cunning and diplomacy are rogues too. I think the Patrician from the diskworld also works.

In other words, when imagining an epic rogue, there are two main archetypes I have in mind:
1) The super spy / hero / whatever that survive from anything trough cunning and luck, and can be send to solve any problem.
2) The guy who took over an entire kingdom/mafia/universe and is pulling the strings in the shadows, or being crowned emperor.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 03:22 PM

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you actually thought expending half of a presumably two caster party's highest level slots to slightly exceed what a rogue could do naturally was actually a point in favor of the casters...

A rogue can realistically solve about 3 different kinds of problems:

Stealthy stuff
Trappy stuff
Damage stuff

A wizard, on the other hand, can choose to solve those problems and more. Detect Traps and Knock are spells they CAN take, but choose to take others because it's not always in their best interest to deal with traps (the team almost always has a Rogue).

It doesn't matter that it cost the Wizard half of their spell slots to cast Knock, it only ever matters if they have to spend more than half of their spell slots. Unless the Wizard cannot afford to cast Knock more times than is needed, it doesn't matter that the Rogue can solve this niche of a problem.

Similarly, it doesn't matter if the Fighter can lift a Boulder 20 times and the Wizard can lift a Boulder once, because the team is only going to encounter one Boulder obstacle in the day.

1 Boulder scenario: Fighter = Wizard > Rogue
1 Lock scenario: Fighter < Wizard = Rogue
10 Boulder scenario: Fighter > Wizard > Rogue
10 Lock scenario; Fighter < Wizard < Rogue.

And that looks fine. But how many times does the DM call for more than one Boulder/Locked Door challenge per day? When does the "endurance" factor of Fighters and Rogues ever matter?

Uncumber

2019-03-04, 03:37 PM

A rogue can realistically solve about 3 different kinds of problems:

Stealthy stuff
Trappy stuff
Damage stuff

A wizard, on the other hand, can choose to solve those problems and more. Detect Traps and Knock are spells they CAN take, but choose to take others because it's not always in their best interest to deal with traps (the team almost always has a Rogue).

It doesn't matter that it cost the Wizard half of their spell slots to cast Knock, it only ever matters if they have to spend more than half of their spell slots. Unless the Wizard cannot afford to cast Knock more times than is needed, it doesn't matter that the Rogue can solve this niche of a problem.

Similarly, it doesn't matter if the Fighter can lift a Boulder 20 times and the Wizard can lift a Boulder once, because the team is only going to encounter one Boulder obstacle in the day.

1 Boulder scenario: Fighter = Wizard > Rogue
1 Lock scenario: Fighter < Wizard = Rogue
10 Boulder scenario: Fighter > Wizard > Rogue
10 Lock scenario; Fighter < Wizard < Rogue.

And that looks fine. But how many times does the DM call for more than one Boulder/Locked Door challenge per day? When does the "endurance" factor of Fighters and Rogues ever matter?

Hmm, I completely understand this dilemma, and I agree it does sound kind of annoying, from a fighter's or rogue's perspective - but as I said earlier, isn't the solution sort of down to the imagination of a good DM?

Now, I'm a terrible DM, I can't think 'on the spot' to save my life. But surely a better player than myself could come up with a solution to 'the team is only going to encounter one Boulder obstacle in the day.'... couldn't they?

JoeJ

2019-03-04, 03:40 PM

1 Lock scenario: Fighter < Wizard = Rogue

In this scenario it's Rogue > Wizard if there's an advantage to doing it quietly.

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 03:49 PM

A rogue can realistically solve about 3 different kinds of problems:

Stealthy stuff
Trappy stuff
Damage stuff

Welp if you actually believe this then I guess that explains a lot!

I guess we should just ignore that expertise can be in any skill or that cunning action makes rogues slippery and mobile as hell, or that they can completely avoid all sorts of damage, or utilize feats to provide combat benefits (mostly thinking about shield master + expertise in athletics but there are prob more). They're good at range or in melee. They're the party face, or the party scout, or the party strongman, or the party's detective, or the party's con-man or possibly all the above.

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 03:52 PM

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 03:55 PM

In this scenario it's Rogue > Wizard if there's an advantage to doing it quietly.
If you don't care about noise then a barbarian with a portable battering ram is clearly the best anyway just for the fun of knocking down doors.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 04:01 PM

Welp if you actually believe this then I guess that explains a lot!

I guess we should just ignore that expertise can be in any skill or that cunning action makes rogues slippery and mobile as hell, or that they can completely avoid all sorts of damage, or utilize feats to provide combat benefits (mostly thinking about shield master + expertise in athletics but there are prob more). They're good at range or in melee. They're the party face, or the party scout, or the party strongman, or the party's detective, or the party's con-man or possibly all the above.

I was just using Rogues and those things as an example to simplify things.

Bards, for example, have access to Expertise and use Charisma, and would be a better Face than a Rogue. Warlocks can gain access to charismatic skills via invocations. Rogues uniquely gain access to Thieves' tools, focus on Dexterity, have a Bonus Action Hide, and have incentives to use Sleight of Hand (via things like Arcane Trickster).

Uniquely, Rogues usually do those things. They are considered the best vs. any other skill-based class that can do something similar.

Additionally, they can gain Expertise in only so many skills, so I chose to focus the three that they were best at. Someone can be pedantic and say "Well, technically, anyone can gain proficiency by using feats", but that doesn't really draw an accurate model about the class, does it?

Using stereotypes, cliché's, and average examples, the Wizard can mostly do the same things the Rogue can. Heck, the Wizard can do more.

The Wizard can prepare Disguise Self, Charm Person, Friends, Knock, Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, Mage Hand, etc. A Rogue could probably do 3 things consistently, but the Wizard can do far more inconsistently. If the group encounters a type of challenge (like, say a Boulder challenge) inconsistently, the Wizard is going to be able to solve pretty much any problem.

Realistically, if our team needed a utility expert, and we were offered a level 10 Rogue or a level 10 Wizard, I'd take the Wizard.

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 04:32 PM

snip

These martial vs casters or caster versus other caster discussions online are always so useless...There's this persistent assumption that the casters always have the necessary spell prepared (and they all work without a hitch) that the use of spells bypasses the need for ability checks, and that the PCs somehow have perfect knowledge of what they'll encounter that day.

I'll take the versatility and reliability of a 10th level rogue in your scenario. What's the wizard even going to do if an hour passes by mid infiltration mission and invisibility / pass without a trace wear off? Chant / incant another spell for everyone to hear from a coat closet? Or let's say the rogue and wizard try to get info from a target, the rogue uses persuasion or deception (with expertise) and fails with minimal negative effects but the wizard attempts to charm and fails and now the target is pissed and hostile.

As far as boulders go, I dunno how you even expect a 10th level wizard to move a substantial Boulder, most would beyond the weight limit of the spells available. And a clever party could deal with it in other ways.

*Enlarge/reduce would work though I guess but talk about spells I never see actually bring prepared...

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 04:47 PM

These martial vs casters or caster versus other caster discussions online are always so useless...There's this persistent assumption that the casters always have the necessary spell prepared (and they all work without a hitch) that the use of spells bypasses the need for ability checks, and that the PCs somehow have perfect knowledge of what they'll encounter that day.

I'll take the versatility and reliability of a 10th level rogue in your scenario. What's the wizard even going to do if an hour passes by mid infiltration mission and invisibility / pass without a trace wear off? Chant / incant another spell for everyone to hear from a coat closet? Or let's say the rogue and wizard try to get info from a target, the rogue uses persuasion or deception (with expertise) and fails with minimal negative effects but the wizard attempts to charm and fails and now the target is pissed and hostile.

As far as boulders go, I dunno how you even expect a 10th level wizard to move a substantial Boulder, most would beyond the weight limit of the spells available. And a clever party could deal with it in other ways.

*Enlarge/reduce would work though I guess but talk about spells I never see actually bring prepared...

Sure, but why wouldn't a Wizard keep those things prepared? A Rogue cannot choose to fall from any height (Featherfall), nor can they create an indestructible wall/prison (Wall of Force). A Wizard can always choose to do what the Rogue does, but the Rogue cannot choose to be a Wizard.

The boulder was an example of a situation that both a Fighter and a Wizard could solve. If the Wizard cannot solve it (Bigby's Hand, Large, 26 STR?), then the Fighter can't either. If the Fighter cannot solve it, the Wizard may be able to (for example, a scenario that requires 22 STR to lift).

Being able to hide for over an hour during an infiltration mission sounds great, but most of those scenarios last less than an hour and often either:

The Rogue goes solo, making checks until they fail too often and get caught in a bad situation.
The entire team is in the mission, until one of them gets caught and the group starts combat in the middle of the fortress.

The Rogue wouldn't be able to keep an entire team hidden, and would have to go alone. The difference is, rather than splitting the party and one of them being behind enemy lines, the entire team can contribute and work together without one of them being surrounded.

I'm not saying that a caster is always going to have the answer. I'm saying that if he wanted to have an answer, he could. He chooses not to, because he lets (hopes) someone else takes care of it.

Don't take Knock, that's what Rogues are for. Don't take Bigby's Hand, that's what Barbarians are for. Don't take Arcane Eye, let the Ranger risk his neck. They can handle the grunt work so I can focus on the important stuff.

sophontteks

2019-03-04, 04:47 PM

I was just using Rogues and those things as an example to simplify things.

Bards, for example, have access to Expertise and use Charisma, and would be a better Face than a Rogue. Warlocks can gain access to charismatic skills via invocations. Rogues uniquely gain access to Thieves' tools, focus on Dexterity, have a Bonus Action Hide, and have incentives to use Sleight of Hand (via things like Arcane Trickster).

Uniquely, Rogues usually do those things. They are considered the best vs. any other skill-based class that can do something similar.

Additionally, they can gain Expertise in only so many skills, so I chose to focus the three that they were best at. Someone can be pedantic and say "Well, technically, anyone can gain proficiency by using feats", but that doesn't really draw an accurate model about the class, does it?

Using stereotypes, cliché's, and average examples, the Wizard can mostly do the same things the Rogue can. Heck, the Wizard can do more.

The Wizard can prepare Disguise Self, Charm Person, Friends, Knock, Pass Without Trace, Invisibility, Mage Hand, etc. A Rogue could probably do 3 things consistently, but the Wizard can do far more inconsistently. If the group encounters a type of challenge (like, say a Boulder challenge) inconsistently, the Wizard is going to be able to solve pretty much any problem.

Realistically, if our team needed a utility expert, and we were offered a level 10 Rogue or a level 10 Wizard, I'd take the Wizard.
Magic can solve anything, but its also easily able to be completely shut down. Anti-magic fields are a real thing, so is counterspell and dispel magic. People know how magic works and will take from casters the things they rely upon to use it. And spellcasting is both obvious and threatening when done in public.

It's not actually all that stealthy. Oh a wizard could make himself invisible. And then proceed to do what? Cast another spell? That just defeats the purpose.

What would a rogue do from stealth?
Deliver the strongest single attack in the game? Utilize all those many skills and expertise he's aquired. Don't underestimate his ability to "take 10." Those skills are far more reliable and far harder to counter then spells ever could be.

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 04:55 PM

Social Skills are pointless if you don't speak the language. Being hidden is pointless against Blind sense or magical detection. Etc etc.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 04:57 PM

Magic can solve anything, but its also easily able to be completely shut down. Anti-magic fields are a real thing, so is counterspell and dispel magic. People know how magic works and will take from casters the things they rely upon to use it. And spellcasting is both obvious and threatening when done in public.

Social Skills are pointless if you don't speak the language. Being hidden is pointless against Blind sense or magical detection. Etc etc.

I kinda thought the same thing. Counter niches always exist.

What's more likely, though:

An Anti-magic field or a patrol?
A Dispel Magic trap or an Alarm trap?
A single magical light source (to dispel Darkness), or a dozen mundane ones?

There are far more niche counters to martial classes than there are to casters.

JoeJ

2019-03-04, 05:01 PM

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 05:08 PM

A Wizard can always choose to do what the Rogue does, but the Rogue cannot choose to be a Wizard.

What a silly statement. Do you really believe a level wizard can ALWAYS choose to do what a Rogue can do?

Yeah, sure, okay...

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 05:26 PM

Also that the "caster" in these discussions seems to have access to all the spells on every spell list, not just some of the spells on one list. And they frequently have metamagic, wild shape, and cutting words as well.

We can take a level 10 classless Wizard, as generic as you can get:

Light, Mending, Mage Hand, Firebolt, Minor Illusion
Disguise Self, Charm Person, Find Familiar, Catapult
Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Rope Trick
Nondetection, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball
Greater Invisibility

Would be able to scout, stealth, or manipulate his way through most scenarios a Rogue could, and do plenty more (utilizing things like Rope Trick, Nondetection and Spider Climb). Makes a well enough controller with Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern and Hold Person. Does more during scouting missions as needed than a Rogue, debatably does more clutch actions during combat (Sneak Attack has its use, but anyone can deal damage).

What a silly statement. Do you really believe a level wizard can ALWAYS choose to do what a Rogue can do?

If being pedantic helps your case, fine.

A Wizard is limited by spells he's able to prepare, that's definitely true. However, a Wizard starts with six level 1 spells, and gains 2 for every level. That's a lot of answers, even before the DM has a choice in what spells are available.

There are going to be scenarios when being able to roll a 15 on a Stealth Check consistently is going to be a big deal, but I have found that those scenarios generally end up being worse for the stealthed player than someone who simply utilizes some kind of stealth spell. Even if an Invisible person doesn't roll high enough to stay hidden, the badguys are still chasing an invisible person and having Disadvantage to hit them. The caster can simply move a bit and use their action to Hide again, where a Rogue would raise the alarm and have a hard time hiding anywhere.

There's always going to be minor exceptions. A Rogue is a little more well-rounded, in the fact that they can comfortably steal or hide any time they wanted to, in any way they wanted to. But why can't a Wizard do the same thing?

Hail Tempus

2019-03-04, 05:31 PM

Also that the "caster" in these discussions seems to have access to all the spells on every spell list, not just some of the spells on one list. And they frequently have metamagic, wild shape, and cutting words as well. This is an excellent point. With enough time, money and looted spellbooks and scrolls, a Wizard could theoretically have every spell from that class's list in his spellbook. But, that's purely DM dependent. A wizard starts with 6 spells, and learns 2 every level. Other classes know even fewer spells. Trying to copy what other classes do is kind of a waste of spells known.

Anyway, what party lets its Wizard or Sorcerer try and infiltrate an enemy's castle? The minute he drops concentration, that pencil-necked geek is going to get curb stomped by the bad guys around him. The most effective Wizard functions as a force multiplier. Casting Invisibility on the party rogue is much more effective than casting it on himself.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 05:38 PM

This is an excellent point. With enough time, money and looted spellbooks and scrolls, a Wizard could theoretically have every spell from that class's list in his spellbook. But, that's purely DM dependent. A wizard starts with 6 spells, and learns 2 every level. Other classes know even fewer spells. Trying to copy what other classes do is kind of a waste of spells known.

Anyway, what party lets its Wizard or Sorcerer try and infiltrate an enemy's castle? The minute he drops concentration, that pencil-necked geek is going to get curb stomped by the bad guys around him. The most effective Wizard functions as a force multiplier. Casting Invisibility on the party rogue is much more effective than casting it on himself.

I mentioned above that, regardless of DM fiat, Wizards get 6 + 2xlevel in spells, and can prepare Mod + level. A level 5 Wizard can prepare about 8 spells, has 14 spells in his book, and can cast 9 spells (excluding their 4 cantrips).

I wouldn't say the argument isn't about whether or not a Wizard is better than Wizard + Rogue, but that the Wizard is better than the Rogue seperately.

I'd agree that a Rogue + Invisibility can be better than Wizard + Invisibility, but is Rogue w/o Invisibility better than Wizard + Invisibility?

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 05:39 PM

We can take a level 10 classless Wizard, as generic as you can get:

Light, Mending, Mage Hand, Firebolt, Minor Illusion
Disguise Self, Charm Person, Find Familiar, Catapult
Enlarge/Reduce, Spider Climb, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Rope Trick
Nondetection, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball
Greater Invisibility

Would be able to scout, stealth, or manipulate his way through most scenarios a Rogue could, and do plenty more (utilizing things like Rope Trick, Nondetection and Spider Climb). Makes a well enough controller with Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern and Hold Person.

Hmm well let's see. Can't pick locks. Can't move quickly. Can't reduce any damage done to themselves or even cast shield, this will make surviving tough (maybe they can be an abjurer though). Can't do any sort of serious single target damage. No defense against AoE attacks. Can't give creatures disadvantage on saving throws. Can't auto crit. Can't use items as a bonus action. Can't hide or disengage as a bonus action. Can't pick pockets or plant items with an invisible mage hand. Can't match a +13 stealth check. Can't investigate as well as a rogue could, can't perform arcane or history checks as well as a rogue could.

Yikes! So much for doing "anything" a rogue can do.

dejarnjc

2019-03-04, 05:44 PM

If being pedantic helps your case, fine.

Being accurate helps my case. And making nonsensical statements doesn't help anyone's argument.

There's always going to be minor exceptions. A Rogue is a little more well-rounded, in the fact that they can comfortably steal or hide any time they wanted to, in any way they wanted to. But why can't a Wizard do the same thing?

There are always going to be exceptions. Period. Well roundedness is a strength because no game is the same and no wizard always knows exactly how to prepare. A wizard can certainly "attempt" to do these things but they'll generally be less effective.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-04, 05:54 PM

Hmm well let's see. Can't pick locks. Can't move quickly. Can't reduce any damage done to themselves or even cast shield, this will make surviving tough (maybe they can be an abjurer though). Can't do any sort of serious single target damage. No defense against AoE attacks. Can't give creatures disadvantage on saving throws. Can't auto crit. Can't use items as a bonus action. Can't hide or disengage as a bonus action. Can't pick pockets or plant items with an invisible mage hand. Can't match a +13 stealth check. Can't investigate as well as a rogue could, can't perform arcane or history checks as well as a rogue could.

Yikes! So much for doing "anything" a rogue can do.

Come on, man, you're not naïve.

You know that you could just as well swap out Spider Climb for Knock, or Catapult for Shield. Longstrider + Invisibility could mean the Wizard can Dash for 80 feet consistently each turn (very consistently with Find Familiar), where the Rogue would need to scout and could make 90 feet by sprinting blindly or 60 feet cautiously. I didn't do those things the first time because those would just make the Wizard more generic. Is it more fantastical to open a door or walk up walls and ceilings, and which would a Rogue rather do if given the choice? Don't forget that the Wizard can choose either/or as needed.

If you want to kill someone quickly, Scorching Ray and Shadow Blade + Mirror Image are always options.

What you're describing are a series of specialized Rogues, all in one sentence. But a Rogue cannot be all of those things. You've listed 5 different flavors of Rogue, bunched them in one sentence, and said that your 5 is superior to the Wizard's one. Of course they are. But are they superior individually?

If you're going to compare those kinds of specialized scenarios, I think it'd be best to choose one at a time and compare that to the closest possible example of a Wizard that is specialized towards the same goal. Rogue Historian vs. Wizard's Legend Lore. Rogue Investigator vs. Wizard Diviner. Rogue Swashbuckler/Face vs. Wizard Enchanter. That kind of stuff. That's the only way we're going to get a solid comparison out of this.

Use that head for more than just trying to tell me I'm wrong. Prove it, and do it well.

Kadesh

2019-03-04, 06:37 PM

A rogue's abilities are replicated by a background, or 250gp, and a month of downtime (which can be back storied) and a couple of spells that a caster can either replicate, or sleep on. And if they're not needed, then they can turn to their artillery, bfc or buff bot as they wish. And of the are needed? Oh well, let's rest and try again.

sophontteks

2019-03-04, 07:44 PM

I kinda thought the same thing. Counter niches always exist.

What's more likely, though:

An Anti-magic field or a patrol?
A Dispel Magic trap or an Alarm trap?
A single magical light source (to dispel Darkness), or a dozen mundane ones?

There are far more niche counters to martial classes than there are to casters.
All of these shut the wizard down and shut down non-rogues trying to be sneaky. They don't actually shut down rogues though. Again, underestimating the power of a rogue's "take ten" A mid-level rogue will always roll at least a 23 on a dex skill they have expertise in, like stealth. They have expertise in 4 skills at this point too, so that's 4 skills they will always roll over 20. And the skills without expertise? They are still rolling at least 2-5 (ability mod) + 4 (proficiency) + 10, which is still automatic success in most cases. And they are proficient in 6-8 skills, depending on their race choice.

How many guards can break a 23 roll on stealth? That's a rogue's lowest possible roll.

Meanwhile the level 1 spell faerie fire shuts down invisibility and any level 5 caster npc can dispell and counter magic.

MThurston

2019-03-04, 08:53 PM

Jason Borne is a rogue also.

ImproperJustice

2019-03-04, 10:43 PM

Jason Borne is a rogue also.

And Solid Snake!
Or Sam Fisher, or the whole Assassin’s Creed series pf protagonists. Gabe for Theif, etc...

Guy sneaks into highly defended, strongholds. Removes threats quickly and silently, and ends world class threats all on the down low.

Great Dragon

2019-03-05, 01:10 AM

Meanwhile the level 1 spell faerie fire shuts down invisibility and any level 5 caster npc can dispell and counter magic.

That, and a 3rd level NPC caster can use See Invisibility.
And making items that can do so to give to key guards would be likely.

So Stealthiness without magic is still useful.

After 11th Level, True Seeing stops all magical disguises, including Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechanging - including Wild Shape, which stops those (Moon) Druids too!!
It also stops Darkness, Fog Cloud and other such things as well.
PHB pg 284

TRUE SEEING
6th level divination
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (an ointment for the eyes that costs 25 gp; is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat; and is consumed by the spe11)
Duration: 1 hour
This spe11 gives the willing creature you touch the ability to see things as they actually are. For the duration, the creature has truesight, notices secret doors hidden by magic, and can see into the Ethereal Plane, all out to a range of 120 feet.

So non-magical Disguises still stays useful.
Sure, since no one can put Expertise in Disguise - the Wizard could take a Background with Disguise Kit - but most Players are going to go Sage over Criminal/Spy.

Edit - placed a Rogue Subclass Idea in Homebrew: The Guide.

Montesquieu P.

2019-03-05, 01:58 AM

True Seeing -- like all Divination Magics -- does not work against someone wearing an Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location. A Lvl 11 Rogue with Expertise, near-top dex, and Reliable Talent, is going to be +4(prof) +4(Expt) +4(dex) +10(R.T.), or Minimum 22 (Hard) to detect sneaking about; throw in a buffing spell (Pass W/o Trace; Invisibility) and add another 10.... A Top Level Rogue with Proficiency and Dex both maximized and a friendly buff, could be +12(Exp.) +5(Dx) +10(RT) +10(PassWoTr) = Minimum 37...which sneaks by an Ancient Red Dragon (Perception max: 36). If she is wearing said Amulet, the TrueSeeing/See Invisibility fail, but the Stealth still has to beat the other senses' Perception (smell, hearing, vibration).

What the Wizard can't beat is the anti-magic (Counterspell, etc.) -- but the antimagic, is ineffective against the Rogue skill.

What the Rogues' skill(s) can't beat, is the wizardly(bardic, clerical, sorcerous, etc.) magic, aiming at the 'unprepared' Rogue.

This is why, in so many ways, Rogues and Wizards -- not Fighters and Rogues, or Fighters and Wizards -- are the "natural antagonists" in the system.

...and you don't need to plant a knife between the shoulderblades. Sometimes, a good handful of sticky glue down (or up) the robes [or armor], or itching or sneezing powder, or just a bag full of ground pepper (habanero is a nice extra touch), or just 'borrowing' the critical spell components, is more than enough to bring Murphy to visit the BBEG. Now THAT can be epic!

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-05, 06:34 AM

If True Seeing is on the table, shouldn't Nondetection be, too?

MThurston

2019-03-05, 07:19 AM

Black Widow
Hawkeye
Spiderman
Kraven
Loki
Antman
Batman
Robin
Flash
Nightcrawler
Rogue

LadyEowyn

2019-03-05, 07:37 AM

Hey everyone,

So basically, I completely admit that this is due to a thorough lack of imagination on my behalf - but I just find it really hard to envisage how a classic Rogue character can be, well, 'epic', in the same way I imagine other classes.

There’s a lot of mytholog around tricksters. Loki in Norse myths, Anansi in the US southwest, Raven in Haida mythology.

In fiction there’s the legends of El-Ahrairah in Watership Down who manages to be awesome despite being a rabbit. One of them involves him managing to get acquitted at a trial with a jury of predator animals - all of whom hate him and want him dead - by using trickery to make the main witness look like a fool who’s movking them. Another one involves him stealing a vast amount of exteemely well-protected good by convincing the king who has it that the food is ruined and needs to be thrown out.

In A World of Ice and Fire, the Lannisters have legends about a mythical ancestor called Lann the Clever. The Lannister family’s home castle is basically a giant warren carved in a pillar of rock that’s completely uncapturable by military force. They’ve got a lot of different stories about how Lann the Clever captured it - conving the original owners it was haunted and then moving in when they left, for example.

That’s your epic rogue. The one who can manipulate enemies into defeating themselves or straight-up just giving him what he wants. The best ones can defeat an enemy while making him think he’s won.

dejarnjc

2019-03-05, 07:40 AM

Come on, man, you're not naïve.

I'd agree since I'm not naive enough to believe that that being patronizing helps convince someone that you're in the right.

You know that you could just as well swap out Spider Climb for Knock, or Catapult for Shield. Longstrider + Invisibility could mean the Wizard can Dash for 80 feet consistently each turn (very consistently with Find Familiar), where the Rogue would need to scout and could make 90 feet by sprinting blindly or 60 feet cautiously. I didn't do those things the first time because those would just make the Wizard more generic. Is it more fantastical to open a door or walk up walls and ceilings, and which would a Rogue rather do if given the choice? Don't forget that the Wizard can choose either/or as needed.

Once again there's this assumption that a Wizard can do ALL these things on any given day and that this Wizard has whatever spell they need prepared at all times and that they didn't expend the majority of their spell slots in a combat encounter prior to encountering this wall that needs to be walked up. I mean no ****, you can make any character all powerful if you just cheat the game system.

If you want to kill someone quickly, Scorching Ray and Shadow Blade + Mirror Image are always options.

Wow, with 2nd level slots you can do less damage than any rogue above 5th level for a single turn with scorching ray. Or you can use an entire turn to prep and then use your next turn to still be less effective at single target damage than the rogue. Bravo /s

What you're describing are a series of specialized Rogues, all in one sentence. But a Rogue cannot be all of those things. You've listed 5 different flavors of Rogue, bunched them in one sentence, and said that your 5 is superior to the Wizard's one. Of course they are. But are they superior individually?

I was merely challenging your supposition that wizards could do ANYTHING that a rogue could do and I wanted to cover a diverse array of the things rogues can do to demonstrate the silliness of such a belief.

If you're going to compare those kinds of specialized scenarios, I think it'd be best to choose one at a time and compare that to the closest possible example of a Wizard that is specialized towards the same goal. Rogue Historian vs. Wizard's Legend Lore. Rogue Investigator vs. Wizard Diviner. Rogue Swashbuckler/Face vs. Wizard Enchanter. That kind of stuff. That's the only way we're going to get a solid comparison out of this.

Tell you what. If you're so inclined, build whatever kind of wizard you want at any level and I'll build a similarly leveled rogue whom can do things that wizard can't.

Use that head for more than just trying to tell me I'm wrong. Prove it, and do it well.

Has being patronizing ever actually worked out in your favor?

Kadesh

2019-03-05, 08:04 AM

'But I can make the party do things they couldn't
Versus 'I can do all of this without the party weighing me down'

Great Dragon

2019-03-05, 08:31 AM

'But I can make the party do things they couldn't
Versus 'I can do all of this without the party weighing me down'

But then, you're not really playing D&D - you're the Rogue version of The One Man Army...

I ran out of time for the Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location.
If the DM is handing these out like candy, sure the Prepared Wizard gets an edge.
But then, The Rogue can steal it off his neck in two shakes of a lamb's tail, and be long gone before she's noticed!

Non-detection at Low Level helps hide the Wizard from Detection most of the time.
The Rogue gets to Hide from Detection most of the time without magic - and as pointed out, does not have to prepare in advance or worry that doing something else lowers this Resource.

---
I just watched Underworld Awakening:
Subject One is very much a Rogue (Sure; she's also a Vampire and maybe a Shadow Monk, too) but the End Fight was Epic! She does sneak attack to pierce into the baddie's stomach, used a bonus action to Sleight of Hand a grenade in, and then Uses Object to toss him the pin. After which she Moves up, goes around, and then Bonus Action Disengages, preventing him from even reacting before she's like 15-20 feet away! Boom, insta-death!

Sure, she did it as a mini-Solo - but she could have done all that with the Party.

Chronos

2019-03-05, 08:41 AM

You ever hear of the mightiest warrior in the world, or the most powerful wizard? Sure, of course!

You ever hear of the greatest rogue in the world? No, you have not.

Which is the whole point. :smallcool:

Unoriginal

2019-03-05, 08:47 AM

Hail Tempus

2019-03-05, 10:09 AM

I I'd agree that a Rogue + Invisibility can be better than Wizard + Invisibility, but is Rogue w/o Invisibility better than Wizard + Invisibility? Generally speaking, something that requires burning a resource (such as casting a second level spell) will have advantages over something that doesn't (a rogue using his bonus action to hide).

That being said, the only advantage Wizard+Invisibility has versus a Rogue w/o Invisibility is a scenario where the Rogue can't take the Hide action because he can't make himself heavily obscured (unless he's a Wood Elf, who just needs to be lightly obscured in a natural setting, or a Halfling, who just needs larger creatures to duck behind).

Assuming the Rogue can get the appropriate level of obscurement, at level 3 he would typically have a +7 to his Stealth check. An invisible Wizard would at most have a +5, assuming max Dexterity and proficiency in Stealth (I'd typically expect a Wizard to have a +2 to his stealth). As the levels increase, the Rogue would pull ahead as his Dexterity increases and the benefits of Expertise pile up. If the Rogue is an Arcane Trickster, he can cast invisibility on himself starting at 7th level. By 11th level, the Rogue can't roll less than 23 on his stealth check.

So, at lower levels, with the use of a resource, a Wizard can do a poorer job of something that the Rogue does for free. At higher levels, the Wizard can't keep up with the Rogue at all in this area.

Kadesh

2019-03-05, 01:39 PM

But then, you're not really playing D&D - you're the Rogue version of The One Man Army...
Correct. So why bother playing D&D as a Rogue when the Rogue's abilities effectively rely on nobody else being there, until the moment they need to Sneak Attack? Playing a "rogue", basically means "you guys go make a drink and have a smoko for a half hour, I want to alert our enemies to our presence, but with extra steps".

I ran out of time for the Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location.
If the DM is handing these out like candy, sure the Prepared Wizard gets an edge.
But then, The Rogue can steal it off his neck in two shakes of a lamb's tail, and be long gone before she's noticed!

Non-detection at Low Level helps hide the Wizard from Detection most of the time.
The Rogue gets to Hide from Detection most of the time without magic - and as pointed out, does not have to prepare in advance or worry that doing something else lowers this Resource.
No, the rogue doesn't. It gets to hide most of the time, by using it's Dexterity+Stealth modifier. Which is a bit pointless, unless it's also got Perception because they are unlikely to see (Disadvantage on Perception due to Darkness, Blind at 60ft+, Intervening terrain etc).

Cool. You are slightly better at something the rest of the party can do unless they utterly dump everything. And even then, the Caster can spend one of their resources to bypass that challenge in a way that the Rogue couldn't. Sure, the Rogue can stealth past. Nice one. Plate Armoured Mongo cannot, but with a Pass Without Trace, sorted. He's got a bonus almost as big as you, despite the -1 Dex Mod and Disadvantage on Stealth. And with 250gp and a month of downtime, he's suddenly got a bonus. And with a suit of armour a bit more suited to a stealth mission, maybe looking for some Mithril Armor, well, whaddaya know. They're not doing too bad.

malachi

2019-03-05, 02:04 PM

In a party of:
Rogue
Fighter
Barbarian
Paladin
Cleric

In this, it's pretty clear what a rogue's going to do to stand out, regardless of what any of the archetypes are. The fighter and cleric might be able to sneak along with the rogue, but no one has the breadth of skills and spells to make any rogue feel unnecessary.

Now, if the party is:
Arcane Trickster Rogue
Evocation Wizard
Life Cleric
Valor Bard
Land (Desert) Druid

What does the rogue do that actually stands out in this group?
How many resource-draining encounters a day are needed before the rogue's non-combat capabilities get used over the other PCs casually expending a spell slot on a utility spell they happened to choose (and aren't focusing on)?
And this is in a group where the spellcasting PCs aren't specifically geared towards typical rogue capabilities, and the rogue has spell slots as well.

If instead, the party were:
Arcane Trickster Rogue
Illusionist Wizard
Trickery Cleric
Glamor Bard
Moon Druid

Same questions here.
What does the rogue do that actually stands out in this group?
How many resource-draining encounters a day are needed before the rogue's non-combat capabilities get used over the other PCs casually expending a spell slot?
And this is in a group where the spellcasting PCs aren't specifically geared towards typical rogue capabilities, and the rogue has spell slots as well.

Would the rogue stand out less in the last two parties if it were a Thief or Assassin rather than an Arcane Trickster?

Great Dragon

2019-03-05, 05:07 PM

@malachi. Nice.

And with 250gp and a month of downtime, he's suddenly got a bonus.

PHB page 187

Training
You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools.
Your DM might allow additional training options.
First, you must find an instructor willing to teach you.
The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required.
The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day.
After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool.

Please note that unless the DM is Homebrewing, that new Skills cannot be added.

250 days is eight months, not one.

PHB pg 154

17 Artisan's Tools
Disguise kit 25 gp 3 lb.
Forgery kit 15 gp 5 lb.
4 Gaming sets
Herbalism kit 5 gp 3 lb.
10 Musical instruments
Navigator’s tools 25 gp 2 lb.
Poisoner’s kit 50 gp 2 lb.
Thieves’ tools 25 gp 1 lb.
Vehicles (land and water)

Bolded are most likely going to be taken by PCs.
These would be nearly Eight Years of training, costing 2,000 gold!

And that's not counting the number of Languages in the DM's Game!

This is why certain Classes focus on certain skills, because as Adventurers, they are far less likely to be willing to spend that much time training when there are Quests to Do, and BBEGs to take down.

An extra Language or Tool between Adventures, sure.
But then the Rogue can spend the time learning any of these as well, so they can still shine.

If your Playing the Stealth Rogue, it makes no sense to not take Perception. Just saying.

dejarnjc

2019-03-05, 05:19 PM

Now, if the party is:
Arcane Trickster Rogue
Evocation Wizard
Life Cleric
Valor Bard
Land (Desert) Druid

What does the rogue do that actually stands out in this group?
How many resource-draining encounters a day are needed before the rogue's non-combat capabilities get used over the other PCs casually expending a spell slot on a utility spell they happened to choose (and aren't focusing on)?
And this is in a group where the spellcasting PCs aren't specifically geared towards typical rogue capabilities, and the rogue has spell slots as well.

Uh ok. Well let's see. This party lacks a meaty solid front line although the valor bard, life cleric, and the rogue could work together to do that. Of the 3, the Rogue is probably the most durable, particularly with blur.
The rogue definitely provides the most consistent single target damage.
The rogue continues to be the stealthiest of the bunch and, depending on the bard, could also be the party face. Could also function as the investigator/arcanist or as the strong man.
Assuming optimized stats...magical Ambush ensures that the AT still has the best chance of any in the party of landing a crucial save or suck.
100% the most consistently mobile of the group.

If instead, the party were:
Arcane Trickster Rogue
Illusionist Wizard
Trickery Cleric
Glamor Bard
Moon Druid

Same questions here.
What does the rogue do that actually stands out in this group?
How many resource-draining encounters a day are needed before the rogue's non-combat capabilities get used over the other PCs casually expending a spell slot?
And this is in a group where the spellcasting PCs aren't specifically geared towards typical rogue capabilities, and the rogue has spell slots as well.

Would the rogue stand out less in the last two parties if it were a Thief or Assassin rather than an Arcane Trickster?

Basically the same answers before. This party drastically lacks any sort of consistent single target damage.
Moon Druid can tank some but will be less effective if they solely dedicate themselves to tanking (they'll lose concentration eventually). Regardless, they complement the rogue nicely and the rogue would make an excellent striker with this bunch. Slap the sentinel feat on the rogue and they'd put the others to shame easily in terms of damage per round.
Continues to be the stealthiest of the bunch. Moon druid can do some unique scouting for sure though so I'd say they'd probably end up splitting this role 50/50.
Being the face is unlikely with a glamour bard but they would be a nice complement to that too.
Still has the best chance of landing a crucial save or suck.
Still the most consistently mobile of the group, although the moon druid would at times (twice per short rest) rival or even exceed that.

Now here's a question for you. How do the other PCs stand out in those two groups?

Kadesh

2019-03-05, 05:20 PM

Ah, good catch. Thanks for the heads up. DM was houseruling a lot with those, ah well.

Great Dragon

2019-03-05, 06:43 PM

Ah, good catch. Thanks for the heads up. DM was houseruling a lot with those, ah well.

Your welcome.
Yeah, I still get blind-sided with some of these 5e rules.:xykon:

Chronos

2019-03-05, 07:18 PM

Uncumber

2019-03-05, 08:00 PM

....

If your Playing the Stealth Rogue, it makes no sense to not take Perception. Just saying.

I'm sure this is my noob-ness shining through again, but why is this?

Is it simply because a stealth rouge will be likely scouting ahead, and therefore it would be useful if they, uh, noticed stuff whilst scouting?

On a side note, not specifically related to rogues - I often read that 'you should pretty much always pick perception as a proficiency'. Are there any particular cases/class archetypes/etc. where you wouldn't want to pick it?

Uncumber

2019-03-05, 08:04 PM

My rogue ended up training in surveyors' tools during downtime (not on the equipment list, but it seemed reasonable). My intent was to be able to find secret rooms and the like by finding where two walls were further apart than they should be, or the like, but ended up using them for pretty much everything except that.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what you did end up using the surveyor's tools for. For some reason, tools in this game are one of my favourite aspects. I kind of like how something that is almost just fluff, can occasionally actually have an impact in games. Also, your original intention (using them to find hidden rooms, etc) sounds awesome!

Great Dragon

2019-03-05, 08:11 PM

I'm sure this is my noob-ness shining through again, but why is this?

1) Is it simply because a stealth rouge will be likely scouting ahead, and therefore it would be useful if they, uh, noticed stuff whilst scouting?

2) On a side note, not specifically related to rogues - I often read that 'you should pretty much always pick perception as a proficiency'. Are there any particular cases/class archetypes/etc. where you wouldn't want to pick it?

1) Yep. Otherwise they get ambushed a lot.
Sure, the Druid can cast P-w/o-T on the group, but only the Rogue can scout ahead - without spending resources - outside of the spell AoE.

2) While Perception is nice to have, only if the Wizard or Sorcerer PC takes it as a Background, do they get Perception.

I'm AFK, so don't have the books to easily list the Classes that get Perception as a Class Skill. Rogue, Ranger, and ??

Uncumber

2019-03-05, 08:52 PM

1) Yep. Otherwise they get ambushed a lot.
Sure, the Druid can cast P-w/o-T on the group, but only the Rogue can scout ahead - without spending resources - outside of the spell AoE.

2) While Perception is nice to have, only if the Wizard or Sorcerer PC takes it as a Background, do they get Perception.

I'm AFK, so don't have the books to easily list the Classes that get Perception as a Class Skill. Rogue, Ranger, and ??

According to the PHB - barbarian, bard, druid, fighter, ranger and rogue can all choose perception at level one.

Also, I mean, with the ability to customise backgrounds it is very easy to have proficiency in perception if you choose to. I haven't chosen it for all the characters I've made by any measure, but I just always seem to see it mentioned in guides and whatnot, sort of ''you may as well pick up perception if you can'' - that kind of attitude.

I understand it's helpful, but is it that helpful? If indeed it is, then hmm, I suppose I'm wondering what sort of characters would have the least use for it.

Chronos

2019-03-05, 08:58 PM

I used them to determine the distance to distant landmarks, the height of a tower (which turned out to be ambiguous, since the top of it wasn't quite precisely on the same plane), where we were after a teleportation circle... I'm pretty sure there were other uses I don't remember, too.

Great Dragon

2019-03-06, 08:27 AM

According to the PHB - barbarian, bard, druid, fighter, ranger and rogue can all choose perception at level one.
This leaves: Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard.
So, expect to see a lot more Elf versions of these.

Also, I mean, with the ability to customise backgrounds it is very easy to have proficiency in perception if you choose to. I haven't chosen it for all the characters I've made by any measure, but I just always seem to see it mentioned in guides and whatnot, sort of ''you may as well pick up perception if you can'' - that kind of attitude.

Well, for me, it's a lot easier to use the existing Backgrounds, and if there is an overlapping of Skills, let the Player choose another. Same with exchanging overlapping Tools for Languages (or reverse).

This new trend of: "Just pick any two skills, a Tool and a Language, and then pick one other Background Feature" makes it a lot harder for me to envision the Background.
IMO doing this is just another Munchkin trick to get More Punch with Less Effort.

I can totally see Jack Sparrow's Background of "Pirate" being an important part of his Character.
Even to the point of it being used to justify him being the 'Captain' of the Black Pearl at Character Creation.
- Remember Folks - the "Movie Heroes" are not 1st level Characters, most are at least 10th Level!

Now, I've looked at the Backgrounds in the PHB and noticed that only Sailor grants Perception as a Skill.

The DM can allow the Player to swap a given skill in another Background, but the Player should still give a good reason for it.
For example: I can see a Criminal Fighter swapping Deception for Perception - or an Urchin Sorcerer swapping Sleight of Hand for Perception - to be the Gang's lookout. I can see an Outlander swapping Athletics for Perception.

I understand it's helpful, but is it that helpful? If indeed it is, then hmm, I suppose I'm wondering what sort of characters would have the least use for it.

As pointed out above, you may be dealing with a lot of Munchkin-minded Players
- where they never want to be Surprised (Take the Alert Feat, then - but most Munchkins will do this and take Perception, just to be safe) or can spot The McGuffin (hopefully) before anyone else.

Is Perception a useful skill? Yes, but then so are all of the Skills, in their own way.

The Sage Wizard that Traded History for Perception (and took Arcana and Religion to better Identify both Arcane and Divine Creatures and such) is interesting, but then they won't know nearly as much about the Important Past Events of People, Places, and Items.
Why is the McGuffin important?

And the Legend Lore spell only tells you the Events that made the Item 'famous', and none of the other information: Like "Excalibur was wielded by King Arthur to unite the British People" - but not who made it, how and why. Who got the item next, and what they did with it, unless they also did Legendary Actions with it.

So, I guess the real Question is: "How important is a given Skill to you for this Character?"

@PhoenixPhyre - Yes, I know that doing the Cherry-picking is allowed by RAW.
But like you said - the Player should still have a Reason for why they are picking those skills, and How their Background is different then any of the others. The Background matching the DM's world implies that the Player was trying to make their Character a Part of it, instead of the "Here's my PC, deal with it" type.

*Pet Peeve, sorry.

PhoenixPhyre

2019-03-06, 08:43 AM

Custom backgrounds are not homebrew, they're RAW-allowed. But they're supposed to actually match the fictional background. I would require an actual explanation for people cherry-picking skills and tools, but would let it go if it actually matches the world.

That said--

"Free" skill proficiencies are a major perk. Having to get it from a background comes at the expense of something else. But Perception is not a god-skill. Useful, sure. But not vital, especially if the DM is running Intelligence (Investigation) properly for things like traps.

Uncumber

2019-03-06, 01:27 PM

This leaves: Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard.
So, expect to see a lot more Elf versions of these.

Well, for me, it's a lot easier to use the existing Backgrounds, and if there is an overlapping of Skills, let the Player choose another. Same with exchanging overlapping Tools for Languages (or reverse).

This new trend of: "Just pick any two skills, a Tool and a Language, and then pick one other Background Feature" makes it a lot harder for me to envision the Background.
IMO doing this is just another Munchkin trick to get More Punch with Less Effort.

I can totally see Jack Sparrow's Background of "Pirate" being an important part of his Character.
Even to the point of it being used to justify him being the 'Captain' of the Black Pearl at Character Creation.
- Remember Folks - the "Movie Heroes" are not 1st level Characters, most are at least 10th Level!

Now, I've looked at the Backgrounds in the PHB and noticed that only Sailor grants Perception as a Skill.

The DM can allow the Player to swap a given skill in another Background, but the Player should still give a good reason for it.
For example: I can see a Criminal Fighter swapping Deception for Perception - or an Urchin Sorcerer swapping Sleight of Hand for Perception - to be the Gang's lookout. I can see an Outlander swapping Athletics for Perception.

As pointed out above, you may be dealing with a lot of Munchkin-minded Players
- where they never want to be Surprised (Take the Alert Feat, then - but most Munchkins will do this and take Perception, just to be safe) or can spot The McGuffin (hopefully) before anyone else.

Is Perception a useful skill? Yes, but then so are all of the Skills, in their own way.

The Sage Wizard that Traded History for Perception (and took Arcana and Religion to better Identify both Arcane and Divine Creatures and such) is interesting, but then they won't know nearly as much about the Important Past Events of People, Places, and Items.
Why is the McGuffin important?

And the Legend Lore spell only tells you the Events that made the Item 'famous', and none of the other information: Like "Excalibur was wielded by King Arthur to unite the British People" - but not who made it, how and why. Who got the item next, and what they did with it, unless they also did Legendary Actions with it.

So, I guess the real Question is: "How important is a given Skill to you for this Character?"

@PhoenixPhyre - Yes, I know that doing the Cherry-picking is allowed by RAW.
But like you said - the Player should still have a Reason for why they are picking those skills, and How their Background is different then any of the others. The Background matching the DM's world implies that the Player was trying to make their Character a Part of it, instead of the "Here's my PC, deal with it" type.

*Pet Peeve, sorry.

Thanks for your detailed response :)

Yeah I completely agree 1000% that a player should have a good reason, roleplay wise, to pick skills, rather than just 'picking what is best'. That being said though, perception, taken to mean really just 'being observant' is pretty easy to slot in to more or less any character, if the player chooses.

I suppose I'm asking all this because really I do prefer other skills that I guess I consider more practical, than perception. Skills such as history, religion, intimidation - well, lot's of the ones with a more immediate effect. Perception is much more of 'passive' skill (unless I'm completely misunderstanding something). So that being said, it irks me a little bit when I keep reading 'you should pick perception!', so I'm glad I'm reading here that it's not that essential.

That being said, I suppose I can understand why it is pretty essential for a stealthy-scouting-rogue.

Great Dragon

2019-03-06, 02:35 PM

@uncumber
You're welcome! 😀
And, I'm not going to claim to know it all.
When I have the time and ability, I'll put why I think something.

Also, I forgot to add the Observant feat.

For the most part, unless the DM decides that a Perception roll is needed - like for (maybe) surprise - they are supposed to use the Passive Perception.

Another thing that I see is players confusing Perception and Investigation.

The Secret Door: Detecting one is not automatic and not supposed to be easy.
Just walking past (Perception) and actually searching the wall (Investigation).

darkscizor

2019-03-10, 11:47 AM

Well, the Odyssey is literally an epic, and Odysseus' actions can be considered as a rogue's fairly often (there's the moment in the cave when he pokes the cyclops' eye out, for example). That myth lived on for millennia and is still read in schools now in 2019.

A roguelike hero playing Robin Hood for an oppressed town, a sneaky thief stealing the lich's philactery, an assassin climbing a tower's walls to end the reign of an evil and corrupt king... just imagine anything rogues do that can be talked about later as an epic feat, not just things that are flashy at the moment like smites and fireballs

Yunru

2019-03-10, 11:48 AM

Batman. That is all.

Malphegor

2019-03-10, 11:55 AM

If wizards have the versatility of Batman, the Rogue has the skills of Batman (this is part of my thesis that an adventuring party approaches memetic Batman).

Imagine this. The wizard is saving spellslots, and doesn't want to fill rogue roles with valuable spells. The rogue dons their bat cloak, and glides onto the building. With a magic blade, they cut through a window, and tie a rope to lower themselves into the BBEG's lair.

They sneak in, avoiding 2 sessions worth of fights, and grab the Golden Apple Of Mooncows from its resting place.

The rogue leaves the way they came, and with a swift nod to the wizard, the building is nuked in purple arcane fire as they glide out of the destruction.

The rogue is not a powerhouse. But sometimes, you don't need a hammer. You need a scalpel.

Kadesh

2019-03-10, 12:14 PM

Malphegor

2019-03-11, 02:28 AM

In your example, why not have two wizards, rather than wizard and a rogue, though?

Cost, I reckon. A wizard charges more to fill rogue stuff than a rogue does, though I’d have to check the hireling rules to be sure

OldTrees1

2019-03-11, 02:33 AM

In your example, why not have two wizards, rather than wizard and a rogue, though?

Because the wizard is not as adept at the task as the expert is?

I recently saw an Arcane Trickster perform this same feat when a Wizard would have surely been heard.

Great Dragon

2019-03-11, 06:32 AM

Because the wizard is not as adept at the task as the expert is?

Right
- The Expert Thief can climb walls at normal speed without the need to cast Spider Climb or depend on a Magic Item giving him that.
Plus, has better skill in Investigation (to find Traps, Secret Doors, etc) - Thieves Tools (can Open Locked Doors with a Bonus Action) - (at 6th level) Stealth and Perception.

Add the Dungeon Delver Feat at 4th Level (1st for Vuman) for Advantage to detect things with Investigate and Half Damage verses Traps - which can be halved again at 5th level with Uncanny Dodge.

The Skulker Feat adds even more ability for Stealth.

- The Expert Arcane Trickster would need to use Spider Climb to get up the wall at full speed, but can still match the Thief for Investigation and Thieves' Tools - and (at 6th level) Stealth and Perception.

So, Spider Climb is their only non-Illusion/Enchantment spell known at 1st level. Oops. Forgot that this is 2nd level.
Tenser's Floating Disk for ease of carrying all the Loot.
Charm Person and Silent Image.
Need another 1st lv spell. (See above)

at 7th Level - add two 2nd level Spells: Spiderclimb (or Knock) and Mirror Image

at 13th level - add two 3rd level Spells: Gaseous Form and Remove Curse

at 19th level - add three 4th level Spells: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph and Arcane Eye
Changing Invisibility to Detect Thoughts.
Add one more 2nd level spell: Blur
Plus one more spell of any Level at 20th level: Nondetection. (3rd)

- Now I suppose that it depends on what Level you want to make the Urchin Wizard.
This gives the Wizard Stealth and Thieves' Tools, but no Investigate skill - I suppose that the DM could allow the Player to exchange Sleight of Hand for Investigate, though.

1st level = not going to be very effective.
Charm Person (which might have a higher DC then the Trickster) might get them past the guards.
With Feather Fall for their Escape Plan.

3rd Level - can now cast Spider Climb to get up the wall: and Knock to get through the outermost locked door.

(Blasted Time Limits!)

From this point on, the Wizard really needs to know as much about the Defenses of the Target in advance.
5th level - Tongues to better go with Charm Person. And maybe Fly for hard to reach areas or to Escape.

7th level - Phantasmal Killer for the powerful Monster guardian. Polymorph is most useful in most situations.

9th level - Passwall is the sudden secret door.

11th level - True Seeing to get past Illusory defenses and detect shape-changed guardians.

13th level - Etherealness for better movement over Passwall.
Plane Shift for getting to and from extra-planar locations.

15th level - Telepathy is the only real "stealth" type spell here - for ease of getting information from unwilling guards.
Hopefully without them knowing about it.

17th level - Wish is the trump card here - but be careful what you say!!

----
Am I saying that the Wizard can't get into the Elephant's Tower?
No.

But the best way in would be for both the Wizard and the Rogue to work together - along with a couple of Friends, like maybe a Barbarian and a Cleric.

GreyBlack

2019-03-11, 06:39 AM

I dunno. Do you think Loki (MCU) is an epic character?

Loki's greatest accomplishments didn't come from blowing stuff up. It came from subtly manipulating things behind the scene such that he had the greatest advantage and then applying pressure until he achieved his goal. He, singlehandedly, took full control of Asgard. All of this while his own brother and rightful king was none the wiser. Sure, he had some gifts that the average rogue doesn't, like access to the Alter Self spell at will, but he didn't need that. He could easily have manipulated his way to the top on his own, like how he literally convinced all of the Avengers to fight against each other.

Again. He found the weak point and exploited it. Which is the rogue's modus operandi.

Rogue's are best when played in that way; they're the character always looking for the way to deal the maximum damage with the least effort, and then striking true to the point that it appears effortless. And _that's_ how you make a rogue epic.

Pixel_Kitsune

2019-03-11, 08:39 AM

So I admittedly didn't read every page but in terms of epic rogues...

Altair, Ezio, Kenway, Connor, etc?

Or to take from a more modern story, Danny Ocean, Rusty, etc?

Kadesh

2019-03-11, 08:45 AM

Because the wizard is not as adept at the task as the expert is?

I recently saw an Arcane Trickster perform this same feat when a Wizard would have surely been heard.
Yes, the 2 caster casting stealth spells are less Adept than the Rogue who can't achieve the same feats as what the spells provide (apologies, I said 'Wizard' when I meant 'Spellcaster' in general, in line with the rest of the argument). I don't know if this changes your position, either, sorry for being unclear).

Cost, I reckon. A wizard charges more to fill rogue stuff than a rogue does, though I’d have to check the hireling rules to be sure
Given that I was assuming a party of players was going to be doing it, and not throwing Gold at the GM with 'mother may I', I think that's a bit of a nonsense argument.

Theoboldi

2019-03-11, 09:43 AM

MoiMagnus

2019-03-11, 10:06 AM

I still don't really understand how a wizard being able to do a rogue's job, or indeed the wizard being versatile and powerful in general, disproves the viability of the epic rogue as a concept. :smallconfused:

Discounting the fact that I don't really buy into the spellcaster hype, isn't that kinda like saying that the Hulk is not worthy of being a superhero because Superman also has superstrength as well as several other useful powers? Sure, Superman is more versatile, but that doesn't mean the Hulk is any less epic in the field of being beefy.

THIS.

Even if wizards were strictly better than rogue (which I disagree, at least partially, but isn't the subject here), there are still epic rogues, and plenty of them were suggested by peoples.

In short, every non-magical cunning-based hero can be seen as a rogue. And there is a ton of them in the literature.

Trustypeaches

2019-03-11, 11:32 AM

Sneak Attack can be pretty epic: you strike the dragon from the edges of his perception, landing a crossbow bolt right in his eye. You dodge out of the ogre's swing, using the opportunity to take your rapier and skewer him through the knee and he collapses to one leg and howls.

Plenty of way for Sneak Attack to create cool moments.

Great Dragon

2019-03-11, 11:43 AM

Sneak Attack is nice, but can be seen as "unimpressive" compared to Fireball.

At 5th level, 1d8 (5) weapon + 3d6 (12) SA = 17 + either Str or Dex mod (22 max) vs 8d6 (32) Fireball. But the foes can make their Dexterity save for half damage = 16.

But the thing to remember is that those spell slots per day are few, and SA can be done every round so long as an Ally is within 5 feet of the foe. Plus Reaction SA if the foe tries to run without Disengaging.
Ranged SA does not get the Reaction, though.

So, the Spellcaster's Fireball is effective against groups of Mooks, where the Rogue is effective in the fight against the BBEG.

Epic Swashbuckler Rogue
Errol Flinn

Kadesh

2019-03-11, 02:26 PM

I still don't really understand how a wizard being able to do a rogue's job, or indeed the wizard being versatile and powerful in general, disproves the viability of the epic rogue as a concept. :smallconfused:

Discounting the fact that I don't really buy into the spellcaster hype, isn't that kinda like saying that the Hulk is not worthy of being a superhero because Superman also has superstrength as well as several other useful powers? Sure, Superman is more versatile, but that doesn't mean the Hulk is any less epic in the field of being beefy.

An 'epic rogue' does their thing alone, and are only hampered by the party ragging along. And if I'm honest, Epic Rogue often translates into the the Epic Rogue moving on up ahead until they fail a stealth check someone else would have and comes running back to the party anyway.

Epic Rogues do not make fantastic allies in a cooperative playing game, often insisting on their spotlight moment of 'look I have stealth proficiency' until they realise it is nothing more than a +20% chance to succeed against supernatural enemies with different senses.

Theoboldi

2019-03-11, 02:41 PM

An 'epic rogue' does their thing alone, and are only hampered by the party ragging along. And if I'm honest, Epic Rogue often translates into the the Epic Rogue moving on up ahead until they fail a stealth check someone else would have and comes running back to the party anyway.

Epic Rogues do not make fantastic allies in a cooperative playing game, often insisting on their spotlight moment of 'look I have stealth proficiency' until they realise it is nothing more than a +20% chance to succeed against supernatural enemies with different senses.

Still don't see how that makes them non-viable as an epic concept, which was the question. Also, it assumes that this is a stealth rogue we are talking about, rather an a social rogue or a knowledge rogue or even a swashbuckling rogue with athletics and acrobatics. And even so, I've literally never seen stealth be disruptive or useless like that in games I've been in. Are you sure you did not just have some bad experiences playing with rogues? :smallconfused:

Ketiara

2019-03-11, 03:14 PM

If you like fantacy novelles theres this guy Hearn.
http://ddalglish.com/wp/books/shadowdance-series/
He is why I love rogues.

Kadesh

2019-03-11, 04:04 PM

Still don't see how that makes them non-viable as an epic concept, which was the question.
There have been plenty of examples of epic rogues. In previous editions, these were different classes. And arguably even in this edition, represented by Battle Master, Champion, Bard, or even Paladin in parts.

Also, it assumes that this is a stealth rogue we are talking about, rather an a social rogue or a knowledge rogue or even a swashbuckling rogue with athletics and acrobatics. And even so, I've literally never seen stealth be disruptive or useless like that in games I've been in. Are you sure you did not just have some bad experiences playing with rogues? :smallconfused:
I've had plenty of time playing DnD. A Rogue who wants to rogue does so at the expense of the party.

Great Dragon

2019-03-11, 04:25 PM

I've had plenty of time playing DnD. A Rogue who wants to rogue does so at the expense of the party.

Then it's the way that the Rogue is being played, that is killing the exp for you.

I've also been playing since AD&D 1e, and I've never been that far from the party.
Usually never more than 30 feet ahead, and that was rare. I mostly stayed with the party, and helped where I could in combat (backstabbing was a real pain to set up, and I'm glad that it was changed to Sneak Attack) sure, older D&D editions had it where only the Rogue could find and disarm traps, etc.

I play a very teamwork orientated Swashbuckler in 5e, and he doesn't seem to be useless at all.

Kadesh

2019-03-11, 05:06 PM

What part of that is 'roguing'", though?

Great Dragon

2019-03-11, 05:22 PM

What part of that is 'roguing'", though?

So, to you - the only Rogue-ing is Stealth?
Not the finding of Secret Doors, or Traps; and especially not any kind of teamwork?

Like was stated above, there are other kinds of Rogues beyond Sneaky.

Kadesh

2019-03-11, 05:45 PM

So, to you - the only Rogue-ing is Stealth?
Not the finding of Secret Doors, or Traps; and especially not any kind of teamwork?
The majority of that can be done by others or obviated elsewhere. And nowhere near represents 'epic roguedom'. Open a lock? Psh. Detect Magic? Stonecunning? Working as a cohesive team? What part of a Rogue involves teamwork? Party facing?

At that stage, you're just a Bard without magic.

Like was stated above, there are other kinds of Rogues beyond Sneaky.
Apart from the first thing people go to is stealthing. Every epic rogue you've encountered in gameplay or film operates alone.

Except maybe Diablo which doesn't have stealth. And Assassins Creed Brotherhood etc teamwork includes summonable Assassins from thin air.

Great Dragon

2019-03-11, 06:11 PM

The majority of that can be done by others or obviated elsewhere. And nowhere near represents 'epic roguedom'. Open a lock? Psh. Detect Magic? Stonecunning? Working as a cohesive team? What part of a Rogue involves teamwork? Party facing?

At that stage, you're just a Bard without magic.

Apart from the first thing people go to is stealthing. Every epic rogue you've encountered in gameplay or film operates alone.

Except maybe Diablo which doesn't have stealth. And Assassins Creed Brotherhood etc teamwork includes summonable Assassins from thin air.

I rarely look to videogames for Character ideas, and even movies annoy me.

V-games are focused on the first person player - and make *all* their Characters be able to do things that very few RPGs can duplicate.

Same for most Epic Movies.
Conan being the biggest sinner, here.
I stopped getting those comics/movies after I started wondering what he *couldn't* do.

Frodo was not an "epic" character.
Nor was Sam, Merry, or Pippin.

Heck, Golem had the most "epic" move in the story - finding Frodo while he was Invisible and biting his finger off!!

Yet, readers of JRR Tokien's stories still love these Characters, and only Legolas and Aragorn are more talked about.

Yes, stealth was a big part of Frodo's m.o. - but he still stuck next to Sam, who was not stealthy!

Bilbo was meant to be a solo character, since sneaking in and stealing from the Dragon was what he was hired for.
But, except for the actual lair, he only left the party when they all fell into the Goblin's kingdom.

Kadesh

2019-03-11, 07:57 PM

Epic in a feat of will isn't epic in terms of adventure. Bilbo failing stealth and Frodo and Sam walking over miles of endless, largely empty terrain doesn't make a particularly good story, especially when they were saved by Magic Items replicating spells.

Trustypeaches

2019-03-11, 08:09 PM

ITT: People have a very limited concept of what a rogue is.

Hail Tempus

2019-03-11, 09:31 PM

ITT: People have a very limited concept of what a rogue is.Bingo. A Swashbuckler is a pretty different character from a Thief or a Mastermind.

The rogues I’ve seen in my games have been:

A high intelligence Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger
A high Charisma Swashbuckler
A psycopathic Halfling Assassin
A Wood Elf Scout sniper

That’s a pretty wide cross-section of character archetypes.

GreyBlack

2019-03-11, 09:50 PM

The majority of that can be done by others or obviated elsewhere. And nowhere near represents 'epic roguedom'. Open a lock? Psh. Detect Magic? Stonecunning? Working as a cohesive team? What part of a Rogue involves teamwork? Party facing?

At that stage, you're just a Bard without magic.

Apart from the first thing people go to is stealthing. Every epic rogue you've encountered in gameplay or film operates alone.

Except maybe Diablo which doesn't have stealth. And Assassins Creed Brotherhood etc teamwork includes summonable Assassins from thin air.

You have a very limited definition of "rogues."

A rogue, per dictionary, is a vagrant, a tramp, a dishonest person.

So, given that, sure. A rogue could be someone who sneaks around in the shadows. It could equally be a lying politician, a noble, someone who deceives for a living. A con man. As long as they're an individual skilled at deception, they can be called a rogue.

An "epic rogue" should be so skilled, he doesn't have to sneak around in the shadows. He can deceive you right to your face and achieve his goals that way. James Bond doesn't sneak in the shadows (except when he has to). He's out in the open, bluffing his card game opponents, and tricking them into giving him the information he wants.

Now, what's the difference between him and a bard? Well, easy. A bard wants to tell the story. They're loud and in the open about their deceptions. A rogue would like nothing better than that his deceptions go unnoticed.

Great Dragon

2019-03-11, 10:39 PM

The main point of the OP's request was for examples of "Epic" Rogues.
Which has been done, I believe.

Epic in a feat of will isn't epic in terms of adventure. Bilbo failing stealth and Frodo and Sam walking over miles of endless, largely empty terrain doesn't make a particularly good story, especially when they were saved by Magic Items replicating spells.

They only had 5 magic items.
1 Sting - not really used very often by either Frodo or Sam: but that they still had at the end of the Story.
2 The Mithril Chain Shirt - which was lost after the battle against Shelob.
3 Elven Cloak - they only really used this to hide outside the Black Gates.
4 Elven Rope - they only used this once, even though it 'returned' after use.
5 The Phial of Galadriel - also only used a few times.
Against Shelob and twice against the Two Watchers who guarded the tower of Cirith Ungol.

The rest of the "Adventure" was done without the aid of magical items.
Which says that they needed some serious skill at not being noticed - most of the time.

And JRR Tolkien also did not really focus on every step through the largely endless empty terrain.
He focused where there was something important going on, when he returned to Frodo and Sam.

Bilbo's 'failure' at stealth was because he was sneaking around on a pile of gold coins near a Dragon! But then, I suppose that the fact that Dragons have Blindsight so that even the Ring did not really 'hide' Bilbo from the Dragon being aware that Bilbo was there, just not visible for ease of targeting (which required skill from Bilbo moving quietly on said pile of coins) - is not really important to you.

For "Epic of Will" - that would be Gandolf vs The Balrog.
Where Will was more important than raw Power. And Gandolf died right after 'winning'.

----
I suppose that my point is that any class can "Go Solo", and if that's what you enjoy - great.

But only the Stories that are shared, are the ones that get told and retold
- and thus become "Epic" and "Legendary'.

Theoboldi

2019-03-12, 04:15 AM

There have been plenty of examples of epic rogues. In previous editions, these were different classes. And arguably even in this edition, represented by Battle Master, Champion, Bard, or even Paladin in parts.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. As far as I'm aware none of the characters mentioned in this thread are actual D&D characters with official stats. And while some of them have different classes that could fit them too, they for the most part seemed to map reasonably well to rogues, even when using older definitions of the class.

I've had plenty of time playing DnD. A Rogue who wants to rogue does so at the expense of the party.
I've also had plenty of time playing D&D, as well as various other systems with rogue archetypes. I've genuinely never had your experience. :smallconfused:

Honestly, I don't get your overall argument about stealth being iconic for rogues either. On the one hand, you argue that non-stealth rogues should be discounted because they are not iconic, but on the other you have been arguing that a stealth-based wizard makes them obsolete, despite that not being the iconic kind of wizard either. At this point, are you talking about mechanics or archetypes? Because shifting between them from argument to argument seems to prevent any kind of useful discussion to me.

Kane0

2019-03-12, 05:02 AM

I know the game is getting on in years, but remember TF2? Ever watched a good spy crush an entire team on his own? Thats the kind of thing an epic rogue does.

Unoriginal

2019-03-12, 06:00 AM

You know, if you want a LotR example of roguery, just look at Gimli.

Yes, I know the movie version is your typical boisterous goofy dwarf Fighter.

But in the books, not only he left elves speechless with his oratory skills, several times, but at Helm's Deep he saved Eomer's life by sneaking around so well not even Aragorn noticed him and killing two orcs while they were busy focusing on the Rohirim.

That's right, Gimli son of Gloin Sneak Attacked.

TrueFullmetal

2019-03-12, 06:18 AM

Well, maybe during epic bar fights, rolling and jumping between tables, or making an amazing shot. Stuff like that can be nice.

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 07:41 AM

But in the books, not only he left elves speechless with his oratory skills, several times, but at Helm's Deep he saved Eomer's life by sneaking around so well not even Aragorn noticed him and killing two orcs while they were busy focusing on the Rohirim. That's right, Gimli son of Gloin Sneak Attacked.

Ha! I love the fact that you remembered Gimli!
It's been too long since I read the books, and so had forgotten this part.

And the movie making Gimi the typical Dwarf Buffoon Fighter was done mostly to amuse the viewing audience.
Another reason why I only watch the movies for the Visual Effect of how something that was written in a Book might look.

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 07:50 AM

I have to say I'm having this problem right now, not as a white room scenario but in a real campaign.

We're level 9 now and my rogue just seems to be outclassed by the wizard in utility, damage, and all that stuff. I'm a thief rogue, so I knew I wouldn't be doing the kind of damage that an assassin deals, but I figured I'd get around that by doing cool awesome stuff outside of combat, or making use of interesting gear and stuff like alchemist fire or ball bearings in combat.

I'll post an example below from last session. It's a huge wall of text so don't feel bad not reading it.

First we encountered a group of kobalds outside of this mountain lair, we spotted them engaged with some kind of army of armoured humanoid soldiers. We decide to help the armored figures, and the wizard summons an illusory storm giant, scaring away half the army, we charge in and all join in combat, I'm sneak attacking and he's alternatively using either low level spells/cantrips or his wand of lightning bolts. We defeat the enemy, turns out the army was hobgoblins, but possible allies. Their not-evil master was imprisoned in her own mountain lair by an evil usurper.

We are told that we need to retrieve a key to her cell deep in the mountain, release her, then help her take back her throne for a genuine promise of rich rewards. We agree and all head in, storming in with the hobgoblins through a secret back entrance. We split up, they go to clear the cellblock while we get the key. We get to the room, it's got a pedestal that's empty, so we want to investigate it stealthily. There's no cover in the room so the wizard casts invisibility on me, but the ground is also covered in pea-gravel so I pass my stealth check over there, but fail on the way back in spite of expertise, because the gravel is giving me disadvantage, and I was exhausted anyway.

I hear something stir above me but can't see what it is. Come back to the party and the wizard makes an illusory double of the fighter to walk in there and draw out the monster, it's a wyvern, also two guard drakes show up. Wizard polymorphs the wyvern while I drop caltrops and run back from the drakes. Warlock runs in to fight the drakes, caltrops go wasted. We kill them, then unmorph the wyvern and give it the beatdown.

Wyvern has the key around its neck to the cell block, so we take it and free the master. Then we go to confront the big bad at the end, the goal isn't to fight her and her red-dragon pet, it's to wrestle the orb of dragon control she carries out from her arms. The hobgoblins storm in and start fighting the kobolds, but she's way on the other side of the room. Warlock dimension doors himself and the fighter over to the big bad, our wizard polymorphs the fighter into a giant ape to give him epic wrestling abilities, and he grabs the orb before I can even sprint into range with my dashes.

So...yeah. Also his plan on how to get back home so that I don't need to navigate us with survival checks is to become a quetzacoutl with Polymorph and fly us all home.

I've been thinking about it a lot, and what I think it comes down to is this. At any level, especially high level, the wizard can do the impossible, and I can't. If we need to scale a castle wall, and it's not a crumbling ruin with jutting handhold style bricks everywhere out the side, my Thief ability to climb without extra movement means nothing. I can't scale that wall because it's impossible even with a 30 Athletics check. I could make my own handholds using climbing spikes, but that takes ages, you need to carry a boatload of spikes, and makes a ton of noise, and even then I have to hope I don't flub the athletics check to climb it. On the other hand the wizard can just use Spider Climb, or Polymorph to turn into a Giant Spider, or use Fly. At higher levels expending those spell slots becomes trivial.

What do I get in return? Evasion is about the only one I'm seeing as an actual "do the impossible" thing. Since this campaign is going to 20, I'm sort of left wondering just how far I'll fall behind once he starts altering reality with a word, and hurling people through planes, and I'm still unable to scale a sufficiently craggy cliff face.

EDIT: I should really mention that I don't WANT it to be this way, obviously, and I'm really hoping there's a way that this could simply not be the case. Also it's required for me to point out that we tend to only have 1-4 encounters per day, leaning towards the lower side of those figures. So the idea that the wizard is going to be using 15 spells in a day and can't devote even one to fixing non-combat problems isn't an issue.

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 08:26 AM

@DrLoveMonkey
This looks like the Classic "Magic beats Mundane" minded DM.

Like they do not place any obstacles that counter the use of spells - or in fact require a non-magical solution. Or require unusual applications of old Spells.
They just hand wave it, and move on.

Sometimes a spell-ally combo will make the non-magical Characters feel like they are not really much use, or even needed.
The Polymorphed Barbarian/Fighter-into-Ape can do this.
Or the Moon Druid Shape-changing into a "Velociraptor" (the T-Rex is too high a CR)

But then, the Wizard's Player is also not really respecting the Rogue, either.
They could have cast Polymorph on the Rogue to change them into - IDK, an owl (or a mouse) - and then said owl (mouse) could have used all the Rogue's Stealth Skills to bypass guardians and scout out areas.
Imagine the Rogue being Polymorphed into that Velociraptor, and getting lots of Sneak Attack on top of nasty bite damage!
And taking him down to 0 HP just causes him to return to his normal Humanoid self.

The DM making the walls over a DC 30 climb check seems a bit much.
What, were they made from magically-created stone (lots of Walls of Stone, Fabricate) so that they were glass smooth?

Like, once again - only (arcane) magic has a chance to win the day.

And being something like a Cleric seems pointless in this game, other than being the go-to Healbot; with maybe a small amount of use in combat.

And the gravel-covered floor - I'd be wondering if the DM planned that in advance, or just made it up on the fly, to make it more 'challenging' for the Rogue.

And the DM using Low Encounters in the Day plays to the Spellcasters seeming to be more powerful. Even the Warlock could be so, with Short Rests between Encounters.

------
When I'm the DM, I plan my Challenges out in advance, and don't change them on the fly (unless the BBEG has the means - and a reason - to do so, and it's stated from the beginning) - and I don't mind showing my 'Homework' to prove that it was something that I had originally planned for the Adventure.
Usually after the Players have at least tried to overcome the Challenge.

Does this mean that I never do anything On the Fly?
No, because not every game is scheduled In Advance, and I might not have any of my Books or other Game-related materials. But if this is the case, I'll tell the Players that I'm running the game off the Top of My Head when the game starts.

But then, I actually still use Random Encounters - which a lot of new DMs ignore, due to everyone at the table saying "It's boring".
I say: Tough! Monsters are not going to be all polite, and stay away from the campfire. Sure, I'm not going to throw 15 back-to-back Encounters, but I will have the chance for Encounters based on the Area.

Zuras

2019-03-12, 08:29 AM

For Epic Rogue Hijinks you need epic MacGuffins that can be swiped.

The classic epic movie scene for a Rogue is when the bad guy monologues and then says, “None can withstand the power of the Amulet of Oblivion!”, then waved his amulet, nothing happens, and the Rogue smirks and says, “oh, you mean this amulet?”

In 5e I once saw a Rogue steal a god trapped in an Iron Flask *during* the hand-off between two evil groups. He had gloves of Thievery, expertise, and was invisible, so the flask literally just seemed to disappear between their hands.

One group figured out what was happening, attempted to hit the fleeing Rogue with chain lightning, which he completely evaded, DM ruled it then spread to the nearest member of the other group and started a fight between both groups while we escaped with the stolen god.

It was totally epic.

Unoriginal

2019-03-12, 08:29 AM

Ha! I love the fact that you remembered Gimli!
It's been too long since I read the books, and so had forgotten this part.

And the movie making Gimi the typical Dwarf Buffoon Fighter was done mostly to amuse the viewing audience.
Another reason why I only watch the movies for the Visual Effect of how something that was written in a Book might look.

Well while the LotR movies are pretty awesome, they don't look anything like Tolkien's LotR, most of the time. At least the characters.

I have to say I'm having this problem right now, not as a white room scenario but in a real campaign.

We're level 9 now and my rogue just seems to be outclassed by the wizard in utility, damage, and all that stuff. I'm a thief rogue, so I knew I wouldn't be doing the kind of damage that an assassin deals, but I figured I'd get around that by doing cool awesome stuff outside of combat, or making use of interesting gear and stuff like alchemist fire or ball bearings in combat.

I'll post an example below from last session. It's a huge wall of text so don't feel bad not reading it.

First we encountered a group of kobalds outside of this mountain lair, we spotted them engaged with some kind of army of armoured humanoid soldiers. We decide to help the armored figures, and the wizard summons an illusory storm giant, scaring away half the army, we charge in and all join in combat, I'm sneak attacking and he's alternatively using either low level spells/cantrips or his wand of lightning bolts. We defeat the enemy, turns out the army was hobgoblins, but possible allies. Their not-evil master was imprisoned in her own mountain lair by an evil usurper.

We are told that we need to retrieve a key to her cell deep in the mountain, release her, then help her take back her throne for a genuine promise of rich rewards. We agree and all head in, storming in with the hobgoblins through a secret back entrance. We split up, they go to clear the cellblock while we get the key. We get to the room, it's got a pedestal that's empty, so we want to investigate it stealthily. There's no cover in the room so the wizard casts invisibility on me, but the ground is also covered in pea-gravel so I pass my stealth check over there, but fail on the way back in spite of expertise, because the gravel is giving me disadvantage, and I was exhausted anyway.

I hear something stir above me but can't see what it is. Come back to the party and the wizard makes an illusory double of the fighter to walk in there and draw out the monster, it's a wyvern, also two guard drakes show up. Wizard polymorphs the wyvern while I drop caltrops and run back from the drakes. Warlock runs in to fight the drakes, caltrops go wasted. We kill them, then unmorph the wyvern and give it the beatdown.

Wyvern has the key around its neck to the cell block, so we take it and free the master. Then we go to confront the big bad at the end, the goal isn't to fight her and her red-dragon pet, it's to wrestle the orb of dragon control she carries out from her arms. The hobgoblins storm in and start fighting the kobolds, but she's way on the other side of the room. Warlock dimension doors himself and the fighter over to the big bad, our wizard polymorphs the fighter into a giant ape to give him epic wrestling abilities, and he grabs the orb before I can even sprint into range with my dashes.

So...yeah. Also his plan on how to get back home so that I don't need to navigate us with survival checks is to become a quetzacoutl with Polymorph and fly us all home.

I've been thinking about it a lot, and what I think it comes down to is this. At any level, especially high level, the wizard can do the impossible, and I can't. If we need to scale a castle wall, and it's not a crumbling ruin with jutting handhold style bricks everywhere out the side, my Thief ability to climb without extra movement means nothing. I can't scale that wall because it's impossible even with a 30 Athletics check. I could make my own handholds using climbing spikes, but that takes ages, you need to carry a boatload of spikes, and makes a ton of noise, and even then I have to hope I don't flub the athletics check to climb it. On the other hand the wizard can just use Spider Climb, or Polymorph to turn into a Giant Spider, or use Fly. At higher levels expending those spell slots becomes trivial.

What do I get in return? Evasion is about the only one I'm seeing as an actual "do the impossible" thing. Since this campaign is going to 20, I'm sort of left wondering just how far I'll fall behind once he starts altering reality with a word, and hurling people through planes, and I'm still unable to scale a sufficiently craggy cliff face.

EDIT: I should really mention that I don't WANT it to be this way, obviously, and I'm really hoping there's a way that this could simply not be the case. Also it's required for me to point out that we tend to only have 1-4 encounters per day, leaning towards the lower side of those figures. So the idea that the wizard is going to be using 15 spells in a day and can't devote even one to fixing non-combat problems isn't an issue.

@DrLoveMonkey
This looks like the Classic "Magic beats Mundane" minded DM.

Sounds like it, yeah. I'm pretty sure quite a few of the things that wizard did can't be done, also.

Like, how do you create an illusory Giant at lvl 9? One that's lifelike enough to scare an army? Unless I'm mistaken, the best you can get at that level are stationary illusions that are revealed as fake if you throw something at them.

Same thing with the "illusory double of the Fighter" thing.

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 08:46 AM

Well while the LotR movies are pretty awesome, they don't look anything like Tolkien's LotR, most of the time. At least the characters.

Yeah, I know. They did the best they could with what they had available.

Sounds like it, yeah. I'm pretty sure quite a few of the things that wizard did can't be done, also.

Like, how do you create an illusory Giant at lvl 9? One that's lifelike enough to scare an army?

Illusions are such a tricky (and touchy) subject.
Either everyone always automatically gets a Save to Disbelieve,
or no-one that has a 'reason to disbelieve' even gets a chance to Save.

I deal with Illusions as follows: Anything that the caster has actually seen in person, can be duplicated - up to a HD value equal to the Caster's Level, and within the limits of the spell they are using.

This means that people don't instantly get a Save to Disbelieve - unless they literally see the spell being cast.
But, the more they interact with the Illusion, the more likely it becomes that they will notice that the 'creature' is not behaving normally, and then get the (usually Int) Save to Disbelieve.

It can be quite fun for some of the members of an enemy group to realize that what they are seeing is fake, and then try to convince the still-believing members of their group of this.

MrStabby

2019-03-12, 08:47 AM

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 09:00 AM

It does suck that a wizard can grab a creature and drag them to another plane but if that creature is huge, a rogue,no matter strong or proficient in athletics, cannot drag them into the next room. This is the bit I find pernicious - the artificial cap that gets put in place to stop epic things happening without magic.

Ok, while the RAW says that the Small-sized Halfling Rogue cannot drag a Huge Giant into the next room, the Player can still come with ways to still accomplish the goal of getting them there. Like stabbing said giant (with SA) in the toe and then running into the next room with the now-angry giant on their tail.

The main difference that I really see, is the Bad DM being the one that does not allow Player Agency, or reward Creative thinking. But then - to me - Bad Players are those that do everything they can to 'ruin the fun' for everyone else.

And, Like you said, even Good DMs can mess up - like the encounter per day problem.

Edit - @MrStabby - your logic seems reasonable.

MrStabby

2019-03-12, 09:03 AM

Yeah, I know. They did the best they could with what they had available.

Illusions are such a tricky (and touchy) subject.
Either everyone always automatically gets a Save to Disbelieve,
or no-one that has a 'reason to disbelieve' even gets a chance to Save.

I deal with Illusions as follows: Anything that the caster has actually seen in person, can be duplicated - up to a HD value equal to the Caster's Level.

This means that people don't instantly get a Save to Disbelieve - unless they literally see the spell being cast.
But, the more they interact with the Illusion, the more likely it becomes that they will notice that the 'creature' is not behaving normally, and then get the (usually Int) Save to Disbelieve.

It can be quite fun for some of the members of an enemy group to realize that what they are seeing is fake, and then try to convince the still-believing members of their group of this.

I tend to treat illusions for NPCs much as I would if I were a PC. The NPC sees something - is it more likely to a) be real or, b) be an illusion.

You show up with a rare monster never seen for thousands of years inside a cave with an entrance smaller than the monster... yeah, not going to believe it. If it is a crocodile on a mountaintop... not going to believe it. If it is an illusion of a humanoid bringing the size of the party to 5 rather than 4... yeah, I will believe that. I tend to have rich enough magic worlds that people know magic is real and there are such things as illusions. Of course this has to work the other way as well - the crocodile on the mountaintop was a moon druid and the enemy ignoring it got chomped by an attack of opportunity.

Likewise if a PC is chanting and casting then something appears, then people know that what appears is probably (almost certainly) the result of the spell. Arcana check to know the school will resolve it. Otherwise - is it conjured or illusory? I tend to go with whatever is lower level is known by more casters therefore is more common; if bears appear then probably conjured, if a deva it's probably an illusion. Provides a nice boost to conjuration spells sometimes - till people see an arrow pass unhindered through it anyway.

A similar logic I apply to things that are "real". Most owls are natural birds. Most owls that fly close enough to take a good look at an enemy are familiars and will be shot if they are seen.

Unoriginal

2019-03-12, 09:20 AM

Yeah, I know. They did the best they could with what they had available.

No, they really did not. They purposely made the artistic choice of not being like the books. Which I'm not blaming them for, but it should be said.

Illusions are such a tricky (and touchy) subject.
Either everyone always automatically gets a Save to Disbelieve,
or no-one that has a 'reason to disbelieve' even gets a chance to Save.

One, no it's not this either/or. There are many ways to handle it, including doing what the books say about if you get a save or not.

Two, regardless of saves or not, the point was that the spells the wizard could cast could not do the described effects.

A Giant suddenly appearing can be scary. A Giant that doesn't move at all and just stands there, though? Even retreating enemies would see something's up (especially since the illusions do not give the Frightened condition).

And creating a Fighter's illusory duplicate to walk into a room is far beyond a lvl 9 wizard's power.

I deal with Illusions as follows: Anything that the caster has actually seen in person, can be duplicated - up to a HD value equal to the Caster's Level, and within the limits of the spell they are using.

Again, the described effects were not within the limits of the spells.

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 09:31 AM

Sounds like it, yeah. I'm pretty sure quite a few of the things that wizard did can't be done, also.

Like, how do you create an illusory Giant at lvl 9? One that's lifelike enough to scare an army? Unless I'm mistaken, the best you can get at that level are stationary illusions that are revealed as fake if you throw something at them.

Same thing with the "illusory double of the Fighter" thing.

Well Major Image is a level 3 spell, it creates a creature or object no bigger than a 20 foot cube, which a Storm Giant isn't, and it has sounds, smells, temperatures appropriate to the object. So this big Storm Giant comes rolling up over the hill, smelling of crackling lighting and ozone and bellowing. Pretty convincing.

@DrLoveMonkey
The DM making the walls over a DC 30 climb check seems a bit much.
What, were they made from magically-created stone (lots of Walls of Stone, Fabricate) so that they were glass smooth?

I'm not 100% sure that it is all that much. Looking at actual pictures of castle walls is that really only a "hard" check to get up one barehanded? The ones that are properly maintained don't seem so. I'd have to say it's bare minimum very hard, or next to impossible. So that sets the DC at 25-30. Not impossible for a rogue, but at my level even with expertise and a 14 strength value I'm looking for a 15-20, with the risk of falling and taking damage if I fail.

Even at level 20, where I'm supposed to be this legendary god of a character, if I chose expertise in athletics, I still need at least 16 strength to auto-pass that roll. Assuming it's DC 25, DC 30 is, I think, impossible to auto pass using just Reliable Talent. It's kind of bad now, but maybe not insurmountable, but I see it getting much much worse as we approach 20

Also as a side note, I don't think polymorph lets you use class abilities while polymorphed. I've seen developer statements about it and apparently you're just supposed to replace your character sheet with the polymorphed creatures.

Again, the described effects were not within the limits of the spells.

It absolutely is not beyond the powers of a level 9 illusion wizard. Major Image does it easily.

Unoriginal

2019-03-12, 10:10 AM

Well Major Image is a level 3 spell, it creates a creature or object no bigger than a 20 foot cube, which a Storm Giant isn't, and it has sounds, smells, temperatures appropriate to the object. So this big Storm Giant comes rolling up over the hill, smelling of crackling lighting and ozone and bellowing. Pretty convincing.

Fair enough, it seems I forgot about how you can make Major Illusion move. But in that case you have to make it move threateningly toward the army and hope none of them tries to shoot it while also making them lose their cool by only walking.

I'm not 100% sure that it is all that much. Looking at actual pictures of castle walls is that really only a "hard" check to get up one barehanded? The ones that are properly maintained don't seem so. I'd have to say it's bare minimum very hard, or next to impossible. So that sets the DC at 25-30. Not impossible for a rogue, but at my level even with expertise and a 14 strength value I'm looking for a 15-20, with the risk of falling and taking damage if I fail.

In 5e, climbing a normal castle wall doesn't even require a roll. Unless it rained or the like.

Also as a side note, I don't think polymorph lets you use class abilities while polymorphed. I've seen developer statements about it and apparently you're just supposed to replace your character sheet with the polymorphed creatures.

That is correct.

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 10:19 AM

In 5e, climbing a normal castle wall doesn't even require a roll. Unless it rained or the like.

Oh really? My group hasn't been playing it like that at all. Looking at the rules though I can kind of see what you mean, but with a sheer castle wall there aren't really any handholds there. Maybe a few that are a couple millimeters deep. Now, what I'd like is to be able to say that an epic tier rogue only NEEDS a few millimeters of handholds, their fingertips finding purchase on a surface that others would deem utterly impossible to scale, but I don't see any rules that bear that out.

It's the same difficulty for me to climb it as the fighter or the warlock or whoever, I just get a better bonus.

Unoriginal

2019-03-12, 10:27 AM

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-12, 10:43 AM

Oh really? My group hasn't been playing it like that at all. Looking at the rules though I can kind of see what you mean, but with a sheer castle wall there aren't really any handholds there. Maybe a few that are a couple millimeters deep. Now, what I'd like is to be able to say that an epic tier rogue only NEEDS a few millimeters of handholds, their fingertips finding purchase on a surface that others would deem utterly impossible to scale, but I don't see any rules that bear that out.

It's the same difficulty for me to climb it as the fighter or the warlock or whoever, I just get a better bonus.

Relevant parts of the Athletics section:
Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing... Examples include... climbing a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling, cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off. (PHB p. 175)

I posted it earlier in the thread, but I figured that if skills are capable of doing superhuman feats, we'd need some kind of scale to determine how superhuman they can get.

I figured the highest of a DC that someone can do (with Expertise/magic) is about DC 30. DCs that commoners can accomplish with 50% reliability is about DC 10, and Adventurers start showing off around DC 15.

Skill-Monkeys have the benefit of not using resources to solve problems, but this only applies if the problems they solve usually require resources. The Wizard should be able to solve any problem, while just not being able to afford to. Since spells as low as level 2 do things that Skill-Monkeys can't hope to duplicate, this leaves Skill-Monkeys in the dust.

So in order to have skills be just as relevant as magic, I propose this:

High Fantasy:
DC 14 = Spell level 1
DC 16 = Spell level 2
DC 18 = Spell level 3
DC 20 = Spell level 4
DC 22 = Spell level 5
DC 24 = Spell level 6
DC 26 = Spell level 7
DC 28 = Spell level 8
DC 30 = Spell level 9

Mid Fantasy:
DC 14 = Spell level 1
DC 18 = Spell level 2
DC 22 = Spell level 3
DC 26 = Spell level 4
DC 30 = Spell level 5

Low Fantasy:
Default rules, using Xanathar's examples for tools.

Or, in other words, a Rogue that regularly hits a 18 DC (or 16 in High Fantasy) can roughly duplicate the effects of Spider Climb (including climbing up on the ceiling). Now, the Rogue can still fail (which is what a Climber's Kit helps with) where Spider Climb doesn't, but it keeps the Rogue relevant. Now, if the group has someone with high Athletics, the Wizard won't need to prepare Spider Climb and do something else. In a way, everyone gets something.

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 10:55 AM

Yeah, maybe I should just talk to my DM about maybe being able to perform superhuman feats with skill check DCs, although I'm kind of iffy on it since if I can do it everyone can. Unless we just make it a kind of hidden rogue feature or something.

Although as the game progresses the idea that the Wizard can't afford to burn a Spider Climb to get over a wall gets pretty silly. At level 10 he's only burning one of his three 2nd level slots, and he's got eight more higher level slots to be fireballing and stuff in combat. I'm feeling that might just be an artifact of how we play the game though. I'm going to start DMing my own Dragonheist campaign into Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and everyone at the table is playing an arcane full caster, so we'll see if a published adventure has enough encounters per day to make the wizards concerned about their spell slots.

Unoriginal

2019-03-12, 11:00 AM

Yeah, maybe I should just talk to my DM about maybe being able to perform superhuman feats with skill check DCs, although I'm kind of iffy on it since if I can do it everyone can. Unless we just make it a kind of hidden rogue feature or something.

D&D characters do super(real-world)human things all the time. The point is that as a Rogue, you have *much better* chances to succeed ability checks.

I'm going to start DMing my own Dragonheist campaign into Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and everyone at the table is playing an arcane full caster, so we'll see if a published adventure has enough encounters per day to make the wizards concerned about their spell slots.

Everyone's an arcane full caster? Well, RIP DrLoveMonkey's team.

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 11:14 AM

D&D characters do super(real-world)human things all the time. The point is that as a Rogue, you have *much better* chances to succeed ability checks.

I guess I never really thought of it that way, I'll look to see if there's any support for this from my group or rules in the book I can point to that support the point.

Everyone's an arcane full caster? Well, RIP DrLoveMonkey's team.

Yeah I'm really not sure how this is going to work out, haha. In our normal games that we construct I think it would be incredibly powerful, the 1-2 fights per game would just have 8-9 fireballs dropped all over them and be done with it.

Looking over Dragonheist there's...many more than that. Hopefully they understand that it's different and don't just pound through all their spells in the first combat.

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 11:37 AM

Also as a side note, I don't think polymorph lets you use class abilities while polymorphed. I've seen developer statements about it and apparently you're just supposed to replace your character sheet with the polymorphed creatures.

PHB 266. (I'm AFK)
The target gets all Stats (including Mental) of the Beast they become.
They keep Alignment and personality.

They are limited to doing only what the Beast can physically do.

They cannot speak, cast spells, or activate, use, wield or benefit from any of it's equipment.

So, it looks like the access of Class Abilities (like Rage or Sneak Attack) is up to the DM.
Though it looks like the Devs made it where the target PC is just a creature for the duration. Stopping those Munchkin tactics.

I suppose that for my game the class abilities would work, and the spellcasters could take the Natural Caster feat, but would still not be able to cast any spells that could not be bypassed by a Focus.

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 11:57 AM

PHB 266. (I'm AFK)
The target gets all Stats (including Mental) of the Beast they become.
They keep Alignment and personality.

They are limited to doing only what the Beast can physically do.

They cannot speak, cast spells, or activate, use, wield or benefit from any of it's equipment.

So, it looks like the access of Class Abilities (like Rage or Sneak Attack) is up to the DM.

I suppose that for my game, the spellcasters could take the Natural Caster feat, but would still not be able to cast any spells that could be bypassed by a Focus.

Yeah there was a huge debate about that in my group for a while, about what should be allowed. There's a Dragon Talk: Sage Advice on Polymorph video on YouTube where Jeremy Crawford talks about how Shapechange, Wyld Shape, True and regular Polymorph work. It was very insightful to actually see a developer talk at length about all the intricacies of changing forms, he says that for Polymorph and True Polymorph it boils down to one thing really simply, take your character sheet, put it aside, and pull up the monster stat block, that's what you're playing now. Forget everything on your other sheet except for your personality.

Shapechange on the other hand, actually lets you keep your class abilities, if your new form can do them logically. So in theory you could become a giant ape and use your barbarian rage ability, so that's really cool.

Of course every DM/table should do what they want and what's cool.

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 12:35 PM

@DrLoveMonkey
Ok.

I can see the Polymorph spell limiting the PC; and True giving full access to Class Abilities.

This makes more sense, and shows the true power of the Higher Level Spell.

Druidic shapechanging is different, and for the most part covered by RAW.

MoiMagnus

2019-03-12, 12:43 PM

So, it looks like the access of Class Abilities (like Rage or Sneak Attack) is up to the DM.
Though it looks like the Devs made it where the target PC is just a creature for the duration. Stopping those Munchkin tactics.

They took the effort to explicitly specify for the druid's beast form, it keeps his class features. They don't do it for the spells.

So I think the RAW-est answer is "no class features while transformed by those spells".
As a DM, I would probably do a case-by-case analysis and give some exceptions.

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 02:06 PM

I suppose that the it depends on if the DM wants the 9th level Wizard Spell to be equal to the 9th level Druid spell.

By RAW, from my understanding -
The True Polymorph spell simply allows a more powerful Beast to be duplicated.
HD = LV.

The Shapechange spell uses a 9th level Spell Slot to give the Druid's Wild Shape ability to another person.
---
So, I could allow Polymorphed PCs to take Feats to allow them to access their Class Abilities. But then the Question is: which is a better use of those Feat Slots?
Being a T-Rex with one or two class abilities - or being normal with all class and feat abilities?

JoeJ

2019-03-12, 03:55 PM

Great Dragon

2019-03-12, 04:32 PM

The widespread idea of caster supremacy is partially based on the principal that if the DM creates challenges that can only be overcome by magic, then only magic can overcome those challenges.

True.
But that's because a lot of those DM are Gygax-ing their Games, where there is only One Way to "solve" the puzzle.
And don't even try to come up with other solutions, and get mad when anyone tries.

But there are lots of stories about how someone that had no real magical abilities still managed to get past all those Magical barriers/traps\etc.

Aladdin is the most well known for this. Yes, sometimes he needs help from Genie, but Aladdin tries to not rely on him.

Another thing that I see is that if the Rogue (Or Barbarian/Fighter) uses magic items, these people get all up in arms and claim that a spellcaster just being there to cast said spell-effect would be better.

But, like was posted earlier, that depends on what the spellcaster (Arcane or Divine) has as a priority for their Daily Slots.

Plus, 8 months of Downtime can be used to make (and sell) useful magical items for other PCs to use as needed.

I mean, that's the main reason that Healing Potions exist, so that the PCs can get healing when the Cleric is out of Slots for the day - or if the Bard is absent for some reason.

I don't think that magic items are a good contribution to the argument. The Rogue with an item that casts Solve Problem can do the same thing as a Wizard with Solve Problem, but a Wizard with both the spell and the item can cast Solve Problem x2.

Saying that a magic item makes them equal is a pretty contradictory statement. Rather, if they are equal with the magic item and then the ownership was swapped are both sides still equal?

Well, the Wizard with Item of Solve Problem would most likely use his "Free Slot" to get another useful spell:
Combat, Exploration, or Social.
So, in this case would still be mostly equal to Person with Item of Solve Problem.

But, you skipped the part where the hero (Aladdin) still managed to get past Problem, even without magic of any kind. Only very specific situations made him use magic items - like the Door that can only be opened by the (magical) Golden Key, etc.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-12, 04:39 PM

True.
But that's because a lot of those DM are Gygax-ing their Games, where there is only One Way to "solve" the puzzle.
And don't even try to come up with other solutions, and get mad when anyone tries.

But there are lots of stories about how someone that had no real magical abilities still managed to get past all those Magical barriers/traps\etc.

Aladdin is the most well known for this. Yes, sometimes he needs help from Genie, but Aladdin tries to not rely on him.

Another thing that I see is that if the Rogue (Or Barbarian/Fighter) uses magic items, these people get all up in arms and claim that a spellcaster just being there to cast said spell-effect would be better.

But, like was posted earlier, that depends on what the spellcaster (Arcane or Divine) has as a priority for their Daily Slots.

Plus, 8 months of Downtime can be used to make (and sell) useful magical items for other PCs to use as needed.

I mean, that's the main reason that Healing Potions exist, so that the PCs can get healing when the Cleric is out of Slots for the day - or if the Bard is absent for some reason.

I don't think that magic items are a good contribution to the argument. The Rogue with an item that casts Solve Problem can do the same thing as a Wizard with Solve Problem, but a Wizard with both the spell and the item can cast Solve Problem x2.

Saying that a magic item makes them equal is a pretty contradictory statement. Rather, if they are equal with the magic item and then the ownership was swapped, are both sides still equal?

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 05:16 PM

Funnily enough we actually did get some good magic items pretty early on. I got a cook of elvenkind and he got a wand of lightning bolts. The cloak is helpful, but it doesn’t let me attempt stealth when there’s nothing to give me cover, but the wand frees him up to use all his spells for non combat stuff. That probably isn’t helping things.

JoeJ

2019-03-12, 05:21 PM

I got a cook of elvenkind

Is that an expert at elvish cooking or at cooking elves? :smallbiggrin:

(Yes, I know it was a typo. It's still funny.)

DrLoveMonkey

2019-03-12, 05:29 PM

Is that an expert at elvish cooking or at cooking elves? :smallbiggrin:

(Yes, I know it was a typo. It's still funny.)

Hah! It’s both actually, it’s from a tribe of elf cannibals.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-12, 05:35 PM

Hah! It’s both actually, it’s from a tribe of elf cannibals.

Ah, so option #3: It's a Cloak OF Elvenkind, in the same way you'd say "Tongue of Cow".

OmSwaOperations

2019-03-13, 06:12 AM

The heroes are brought in chains to the feet of the Immortal Emperor. Laughing, he raises the font of his awful and irrestible power, the Star of Creation. The heroes cower, waiting to be bathed in celestial fire.

Nothing happens.

Last night the Rogue stole the Star, and replaced it with a (magically disguised) copy. Having picked the padlocks holding him on the way to the throneroom, he steps up, watched by the momentarily dumbfounded Imperial Bodyguard.

Slipping the Star of Creation from its hiding place, he disintegrates the Emperor.

MrStabby

2019-03-13, 06:54 AM

The widespread idea of caster supremacy is partially based on the principal that if the DM creates challenges that can only be overcome by magic, then only magic can overcome those challenges.

Well it's more than this. It comes down to casters also being better than non casters at the stuff non casters can do. You need to get someone to the top of the tower to light the beacon without falling? Do you use the rogue with expertise in athletics to climb up with a low chance of falling or do you use the wizard's abilities to cast spider climb or fly to do it with no chance of falling?

If you need to to hold a door shut to keep enemies out whilst you complete a ritual, you could use the strong fighter or the wizard could get out bigby's hand if you want to have a better chance of success.

It isn't like fly and bigby's hand are niche spells that it is beyond belief that a wizard would prepare anyway, and a wizard isn't like a sorcerer where spells known is a tight issue.

The idea of "caster supremacy" is more based (in my view) around some casters (wizards mainly, but also clerics and druids) that have such a low cost to doing what is impossible for a non magical character to achieve, even were they to specialise in attempting to do it and that they can kind of do OK. Warlocks and Sorcerers seem to be a lot less of an issue here.

I don't think that magic items are a good contribution to the argument. The Rogue with an item that casts Solve Problem can do the same thing as a Wizard with Solve Problem, but a Wizard with both the spell and the item can cast Solve Problem x2.

Saying that a magic item makes them equal is a pretty contradictory statement. Rather, if they are equal with the magic item and then the ownership was swapped, are both sides still equal?

For me the bigger issue is that it doesn't help the rogue be epic. The rogue has something that is epic but that is about the equipment not the character. It is like the difference between being an awesome fighter and being a pretty good fighter with an awesome sword. Or in real world terms is it more awesome to be a genius at mental mathematics or to be a guy with a pocket calculator?

Also what you say is true, but at least magic items mean that both classes can do that thing equally well. With enough magic items all classes are equally good for everything and they all blur into a single indistinguishable mass. It will be balanced at least, if not fun.

Great Dragon

2019-03-13, 07:45 AM

Well it's more than this. It comes down to casters also being better than non casters at the stuff non casters can do.

It isn't like fly and bigby's hand are niche spells that it is beyond belief that a wizard would prepare anyway, and a wizard isn't like a sorcerer where spells known is a tight issue.

The idea of "caster supremacy" is more based (in my view) around some casters (wizards mainly, but also clerics and druids) that have such a low cost to doing what is impossible for a non magical character to achieve, even were they to specialise in attempting to do it and that they can kind of do OK. Warlocks and Sorcerers seem to be a lot less of an issue here.

See, people had the same complaint about the Bard being the 'weakest' Class in Older Editions.

For me the bigger issue is that it doesn't help the rogue be epic. The rogue has something that is epic but that is about the equipment not the character. It is like the difference between being an awesome fighter and being a pretty good fighter with an awesome sword. Or in real world terms is it more awesome to be a genius at mental mathematics or to be a guy with a pocket calculator?

But, players these days want it both ways - they want to be the 'Awesome' fighter with the Legendary Sword.

Also what you say is true, but at least magic items mean that both classes can do that thing equally well. With enough magic items all classes are equally good for everything and they all blur into a single indistinguishable mass. It will be balanced at least, if not fun.

This was basically my complaint in my Thieves' Tools Thread.

Sure, it was focused mainly on Rogues, but as the thread went on, I saw more and more things that applied to the "The Wizard is master" way of thinking.

Like MrStabby says:
- want more strength than any Warrior-type = Bigby's Hand.
- no chance of Falling = Spider Climb at 3rd level, and Fly at 5th Level.
- and just be glad that no one can add Pass Without Trace with the Magic Initiate Feat.

Don't get me wrong - I do like playing Wizards (and all the other casters), but whenever I play one, I tend to notice that there are lots of times where I did not 'plan' for a Problem, and need someone else to help solve it. Usually without magic of any kind.

Sure, Magic Items come in handy; but 5e took away the ability to just jaunt down to the local
Magic Shop and buy whatever you wanted - if the Person/Party had the gold.

IDK, it just seems to me that in these debates, people seem to think that spellcasters can just pick any Spell off their List whenever they want, and cast them up to the Spell Slot Limit per day.

But - Clerics, Druids, and Wizards must choose what they know for the day
- and can't just 'change' them whenever.

And Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks only ever know a few spells at a time.

Heck, even Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster are limited to knowing spells per day like the Wizard, and only get up to 4th level Spells.

With Paladins and Rangers getting only up to 5th level.

So, yes, the Prepared Wizard is very potent, but is a lot like the Classic Batman.
Anything they knew about and specially planned against - they break it like a twig.
Anything that they did not prepare for - in advance - is going to curb-stomp them!

MrStabby

2019-03-13, 09:55 AM

IDK, it just seems to me that in these debates, people seem to think that spellcasters can just pick any Spell off their List whenever they want, and cast them up to the Spell Slot Limit per day.

But - Clerics, Druids, and Wizards must choose what they know for the day
- and can't just 'change' them whenever.

And Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks only ever know a few spells at a time.

I think that it then comes down to how reasonable is it for a caster to have a given spell. I am going to focus on the Wizard, simple because to me it is the most problematic example.

If we look at the examples listed, we can ask ourselves how reasonable is it for the Wizard to have them prepared for the day given that they need it.

So for example Bigby's Hand. The big spell that obviates any other character having high strength. To me this seems a solid pick for a spell ANY day. It may come as a surprise to you to have to lift a boulder, but you probably want this anyway - it is a great spell. A control spell that bypasses legendary saves? A tool that gives you great benefit to the caster's bonus actions (what were you going to take as a wizard for your bonus action spells? There are some good ones, but it isn't a congested space), you can use it defensively. It isn't a niche spell that we unreasonably assume a wizard just happens to have to solve an unexpected problem; it is a really powerful versatile spell that is good enough that I have seen a number of bards select it for their magical secret. If a bard is prepared to take it as a fixed spell I don't think it unreasonable to think a wizard might pick it up as well.

Feather fall? More niche. I see it selected a lot but not so much when going into dungeons. Up mountains or towers or if there is flying or an expectation of fighting flying adversaries. It is wrong to assume the wizard will have featherfall, but it isn't unlikely. It rises to being pretty damn likely if the party has chosen to go questing in the city of spires that day rather than being gated in unexpectedly.

Spider climb is similar. "Oh my god you need to climb the walls and infiltrate the city, but you have to do it today or we are all DOOMED" scenarios aside, you probably know in advance when you need to climb over an obstacle with really high stakes - the party is choosing what to do and where to go.

I see fly as a bit different. Firstly is is a much more flexible spell. Sometimes you want it anyway as a really powerful defensive spell in some encounters. It adds mobility, scales well and gives a load of tactical advantages and doubles as a Get Out of Dodge spell. It isn't unreasonable to expect a wizard to be packing this. On the other hand it is 3rd level... there are a load of good spells to pick from here so the competition is pretty fierce. So it may come down to "how right is this spell for the campaign"? Which then becomes "how often can the DM have situations where fly would be of critical* importance before the Wizard chooses to prepare it for the day"? I stress critical because otherwise you just fall into the trap of Wizards do a task if it is glamorous and important to the parties success, a non magic person attempts the same if the result doesn't really matter.

Prepared wizards are great. Some things a wizard is probably ALWAYS prepared for simply because the spell that does it is sufficiently awesome or versatile. When is a wizard not prepared? You can contrive situations where a Wizard doesn't know what's coming - "you must run blindly through the portal with no idea what the environment is like on the other side!", but you can only spring that so many times per campaign. Generally D&D is fun because the players get to make decisions. They decide if they want to go into the tunnels or up the side of the mountain, or under the sea and when to do so - a DM that takes this decision away is taking some of the fun from the table.

Divination spells just accentuate this, they are not really needed for it to be a problem.

A DM can throw attacks at the party, a hazard that IS mobile. The non magical PCs can still be pretty handy at that class of problems that can be solved by Killing it Till it is Dead. Even then, for whatever vulnerability an enemy might have a Wizard is more likely to have a spell that will exploit it (non magic can exploit low Str through grapples and low AC through attacks and and BPS vulnerabilities through weapons. A wizard can exploit any weak stat through a save, low AC through attack rolls and any elemental weakness through appropriate damage type - this is where I think assumptions that wizards have all spells prepared are WRONG; they wont have all saves and all damage types. But what level do we expect them to be before they do have more weak stats they can target than the fighter? What level before they have more than 3 different damage types prepared?

I suppose my general conclusion is that a prepared wizard is awesome. An unprepared wizard is pretty good. Wizards are always prepared unless they get a railroady DM.

I love Wizards. I play them a lot but it doesn't stop me thinking that they have a few design flaws (mainly their spell list). Maybe being able to prepare fewer spells per day would fix it - add a real and substantial opportunity cost to being able to do stuff better than the classes designed to do it.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-13, 10:18 AM

[...]Don't get me wrong - I do like playing Wizards (and all the other casters), but whenever I play one, I tend to notice that there are lots of times where I did not 'plan' for a Problem, and need someone else to help solve it. Usually without magic of any kind.

[...]

IDK, it just seems to me that in these debates, people seem to think that spellcasters can just pick any Spell off their List whenever they want, and cast them up to the Spell Slot Limit per day.

That's a good point, but the same thing applies to the Rogue, we just don't think much of it.

Say you're a Rogue that is specialized into three things: Stealth, Thieves' Tools, and Acrobatics. Pretty cliche' Rogue.

Now let's say the Wizard is also in the party, and they're all level 10.

The party comes across a lock. After checking it out, the Rogue says it's a magical lock. His skills aren't helpful in this challenge, so he looks to the Wizard, who may or may not have Knock prepared (unlikely, considering the party has a Thieves' Tools Rogue).
Between these two, who has a better chance of solving this problem?

The party has to scale a sketchy bridge that is being assaulted by flying harpies who are using bows from above. Players have to constantly make Acrobatics checks to stay on the bridge when they get hit. The Rogue uses Acrobatics to nimbly get across and safely makes ranged attacks without Sneak Attack. The Wizard has some generic spells he had prepared just in case (Fly, Shield, Misty Step) and uses them to help the Fighter chase away the harpies while the Wizard protects himself and warps to the other side of the chasm.
Who contributed more in this scenario?

I didn't try to make scenarios that favored the Wizard, these were just some ideas I just now thought of.

dejarnjc

2019-03-13, 10:54 AM

That's a good point, but the same thing applies to the Rogue, we just don't think much of it.

Say you're a Rogue that is specialized into three things: Stealth, Thieves' Tools, and Acrobatics. Pretty cliche' Rogue.

Now let's say the Wizard is also in the party, and they're all level 10.

The party comes across a lock. After checking it out, the Rogue says it's a magical lock. His skills aren't helpful in this challenge, so he looks to the Wizard, who may or may not have Knock prepared (unlikely, considering the party has a Thieves' Tools Rogue).
Between these two, who has a better chance of solving this problem?

The party has to scale a sketchy bridge that is being assaulted by flying harpies who are using bows from above. Players have to constantly make Acrobatics checks to stay on the bridge when they get hit. The Rogue uses Acrobatics to nimbly get across and safely makes ranged attacks without Sneak Attack. The Wizard has some generic spells he had prepared just in case (Fly, Shield, Misty Step) and uses them to help the Fighter chase away the harpies while the Wizard protects himself and warps to the other side of the chasm.
Who contributed more in this scenario?

I didn't try to make scenarios that favored the Wizard, these were just some ideas I just now thought of.

Well scenario one, both are useless at picking the lock (no one has the spell knock...) so they just bust it open with force instead. Or the wizard casts dispel magic and then the rogue picks the lock. Neither is more or less useless than the other.

Scenario two, the party should just snipe down the harpies with bows before trying to cross the bridge. In this obvious solution, only party members with weak ranged options would feel left out.

Try again maybe?

Unoriginal

2019-03-13, 11:02 AM

The party comes across a lock. After checking it out, the Rogue says it's a magical lock. His skills aren't helpful in this challenge, so he looks to the Wizard, who may or may not have Knock prepared (unlikely, considering the party has a Thieves' Tools Rogue).
Between these two, who has a better chance of solving this problem?

WHY aren't the Rogue's skills helpful in this challenge?

Sorry, but this is typical caster-supremacy-advocacy where the non-magic people are outright declared to be unable to do anything because the contrived example needs to only be solvable by a caster, in order to be "won" by them.

It's like saying "this monster can only be defeated if you cast a Polymorph spell on it. Between the Rogue and the Wizard, who is most likely to defeat it?"

Yes, there are locks that can't be open with non-magic means. But what caster supremacists always forget is that there are locks that can't be open with magic, too. Why? Well maybe because magical locksmiths aren't idiotic enough to think that no magic user will ever try to open a lock when they shouldn't, and so it makes sense they'd want to defend against it.

I didn't try to make scenarios that favored the Wizard, these were just some ideas I just now thought of.

Well maybe you didn't try, but you still did.

No one can argue that "here's a door the Rogue can't open and the Wizard might open" isn't favoring the Wizard inherently.

BTW, the one who could open this door the most easily would be a Champion Fighter with Remarkable Athlete. STR + half-proficiency to break it open.

Man_Over_Game

2019-03-13, 11:08 AM

Well scenario one, both are useless at picking the lock (no one has the spell knock...) so they just bust it open with force instead. Or the wizard casts dispel magic and then the rogue picks the lock. Neither is more or less useless than the other.

Scenario two, the party should just snipe down the harpies with bows before trying to cross the bridge. In this obvious solution, only party members with weak ranged options would feel left out.

Try again maybe?

In the first scenario, the Rogue could deal with the Arcane Lock if he had a magic item or some levels into Bard or Arcane Trickster. The Wizard could deal with the magical lock if he had the Knock spell in his spellbook, prepared after Long Rest. The Wizard's solution is much more accessible, so much so that the Rogue's isn't really something anyone would consider.

Scenarios like this pull power away from the Rogues, who would not likely ever have an answer, when the Wizard COULD have an answer but didn't due to a lack of preparation. One is a change to their entire build, and the other is a mild bump in the road. That's a pretty consistent trend I see. There are circumstances when a Rogue could have a specialized build for a particular problem and solve that one problem better and consistently, or the Wizard can just be prepared with a Long Rest and solve it just as well.

In the second scenario, that's under the assumption that fighting on the other side of the bridge was an option. If that was an option, who'd do it better, the Wizard or the Rogue?

Rogues deal solid damage, I just don't think that the mundane skill system does them justice.