Ghostly Visage familiar

[Mr Adventurer]

If I have a Ghostly Visage as a familiar, and I cast a spell on myself, does the Visage get that spell twice - once for being my familiar and once for its own share spells ability?

[DrMotives]

I would say no, just that if some effect was able to block one spell sharing somehow, it would have to block both ways the spell is shared for it to block. Although, since buffs from the same source won't stack, I can only see this coming up with healing spells. But I'd have to rule that you don't get a 2x on your inflict wounds line of magic. It's not OP, but it just doesn't have good logic to support it.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm sorry but I don't really follow your argument here. There is in fact a clear logic to support it - both abilities have their own function, which overlaps. I don't understand a lot of the rest of your paragraph.

It is true that its usefulness would be limited. But for stuff with variable effects you could roll twice and take the best effect, for example; and the familiar would have some ablative spells against Dispelling.

[Mr Adventurer]

Also a further question: when the Ghostly Visage is using its Visage (Ex) ability, does or could that constitute a disguise for the host?

[Deophaun]

I'm sorry but I don't really follow your argument here. There is in fact a clear logic to support it - both abilities have their own function, which overlaps.
The ability of both is that a spell you cast on yourself affects the familiar/symbiont, not that the ability casts the spell on the familiar/symbiont; this is either done by adding the familiar as a target of the original spell or using some kind of voodoo where the familiar gets all the benefits of the spell without the spell actually being on the familiar. Either way, the abilities are purely redundant to each other and grant no further benefit.

[DrMotives]

So, you weren't asking it was doubled, you want it doubled and are asking for validation? Cool.

No, it doesn't double. It's the same spell source twice, it just has multiple ways to effect the visage. Spells don't stack with themselves. It targets the caster, the visage, and through another rule, also the visage. The visage gets hit with only 1 spell though; this isn't a question about the twin spell feat.

And 3.5 got rid of most random effects in buffs, those are more of a 3.0 thing. There might be some around, and then sure, you could see about rolling twice and taking the better roll.

[Mr Adventurer]

The ability of both is that a spell you cast on yourself affects the familiar/symbiont, not that the ability casts the spell on the familiar/symbiont; this is either done by adding the familiar as a target of the original spell or using some kind of voodoo where the familiar gets all the benefits of the spell without the spell actually being on the familiar. Either way, the abilities are purely redundant to each other and grant no further benefit.

Okay. I don't see how the second part of what you are saying follows from the first part, though. And, are you saying that it does happen, just that there's no difference?


So, you weren't asking it was doubled, you want it doubled and are asking for validation? Cool.

No, and it's not cool of you to make assumptions like that.

I don't care where the rules take me on this. I was just saying where it looks like they do take us, to me.


No, it doesn't double. It's the same spell source twice, it just has multiple ways to effect the visage. Spells don't stack with themselves. It targets the caster, the visage, and through another rule, also the visage. The visage gets hit with only 1 spell though; this isn't a question about the twin spell feat.

I didn't ask about doubling or stacking, so I'm not sure why you've brought them up.

Also, your reference to the Twin Spell feat feels odd. A creature hit by a Twin spell is indeed hit by only one spell - which you seem to be saying isn't the case. I'm not sure where you're going with that.



And 3.5 got rid of most random effects in buffs, those are more of a 3.0 thing. There might be some around, and then sure, you could see about rolling twice and taking the better roll.

Okay.

An example that springs immediately to mind is Mirror Image. It has a randomised element to its effect. By the rules that I can see, I'd expect to roll twice and take the best result for a familiar Ghostly Visage.

[Deophaun]

Okay. I don't see how the second part of what you are saying follows from the first part, though. And, are you saying that it does happen, just that there's no difference?

All that these abilities do is say that spells you cast on yourself can also affect your familiar or symbiont, so that's all they do. There's nothing to stack here. It's like if you targeted yourself and your familiar with mass cure light wounds. Your share spell ability wouldn't do anything in that case either, because the spell is already affecting the familiar.

A creature hit by a Twin spell is indeed hit by only one spell...

Any variable characteristics (including attack rolls) or decisions you would make about the spell (including target and area), are applied to both spells, with affected creatures receiving all the effects of each spell individually (including getting two saving throws if applicable).
Reads like a Twin Spell is indeed two spells to me.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah, okay, thanks for the correction on Twin Spell.

Again, I don't think spell effects stack. That's part of the base rules.

But I don't see how what you're saying is any more supported by the text than what I've said.

[Deophaun]

Again, I don't think spell effects stack. That's part of the base rules.
And I'm saying that there is nothing that could be stacked, even if those rules did not exist.

But I don't see how what you're saying is any more supported by the text than what I've said.

Share Spells
At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).
I'm saying that the ability makes the spell affect your familiar, nothing more.
I bolded where it says what I said it says. There is nowhere in this text that says its getting its own casting that could then double-up with the symbiont ability, which has the same wording. I really don't know how better to put this: if you don't see how the text which says exactly what I said supports what I say more than it supports what it doesn't exactly say, I'm at a loss.